Wives of Simon le Constable of Halsham
mard...@yahoo.com
I stumbled on an interesting piece in Sue Walker's "Wife and Widow in
Medieval England" regarding the wives of Simon le Constable (d. 1294),
in which it is stated that Simon's son Robert is the son of Simon's
first wife Joan, not his third wife Katherine. He had a rather
colorful marital history with his first wife being murdered, and
sqabbles between his second and third wives over dower and the
estate. It can be found in Limited Preview at
The notes occur on pp 106-107, but p 107 is missing. Following are
the notes on p 107 to which the relevant piece refers:
66. Inquisitions Post Mortem, 3, no. 1931
67. Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1292-1301, 76
68. Regarding CP 40/188 m 66, Paul Brand, who is editing the parallel
report found in the British Library, discovered more of the
melodramatic details in the records of the 1293-94 Yorkshire Eyre
(JUST 1/1098, mm 80 d and 95). One Beatrice de Vere of Sproatley had
been condemned and burned for the poisonings of Joan. Katherine was
also indicted for her alleged part in the poisonings but managed to
persuade a jury that she was innocent.
I am interested in comments and any further information.
Mardi
wjhonson
tried and found guilty, his estates would have been confiscate. To
try to make him plead and not be obstinate, they gave him bread and
water or perhaps nothing at all, in prison, to try to compel him.
Withstanding this, means starving to death, which evidently was his
end. If his son Robert was "aged 29" at his father's death, then Sir
Simon must have died sometime between 1275 and 1285, as we don't, to
my knowledge, have firm evidence for the birthyear of Robert his heir.
Or do you know the date of Simon's IPM ?
Will Johnson
mard...@yahoo.com
According to "Knights of Edward I" he d. bef 1 Mar 1294, which cites
the Inq.
Mardi
wjhonson
>
> According to "Knights of Edward I" he d. bef 1 Mar 1294, which cites
> the Inq.
>
> Mardi
I believe that is mistaken.
Could you give the full citation he uses?
Provided John Ravilous is correct in his reconstruction of the family,
Robert le Constable, the heir, must be much older then what this would
imply.
Will Johnson
John Watson
Hi Mardi & Will,
I have a couple of notes on this Simon and his son Robert :
Sir Simon Constable, of Halsham, mentioned in an Inquisition 1275, d.
22 Edward I, Inq. p.m. 10 Apr 1294 (Yorks. Inquisitions, Rec. Ser.,
xxiii, 160) ; mar. Katherine daughter of of Robert Cumberworth, rel.
of Sir John Danthorpe.
Sir Robert Constable of Halsham, twenty-nine years and upwards at the
date of his father's Inq. ; mar. Avivia, daughter of and h. of Sir
Roger de Lassels, of Kirby Knoll.
H. W. Forsyth Harwood, ed., The Genealogist, Vol XX, London: 1904, p
176
This would make Robert born about 1265
Robert and Avice Lascelles were married in 1282:
Marriage Settlement: between Sir Roger de Lascelles and Sir Simon le
Constable: on marriage of Robert, son and heir of Sir Simon, and
Avice, daughter of Sir Roger, which shall take place before Nat. St.
John Baptist following (24 June) property Sir R. to settle his manor
of Thornetofte, co. Lincs. on R. and A. and children. To revert to
Sir. R., if there be no children. Sir R. to pay 250 marks to R., if he
(Sir. R.) have a male heir who survives him. Sir S. to give to them
his manor of Dodynton (Dunnington) in Holderness Witn. Sir William de
Saham, Justice of the King, Sir William de Holteby. John Cheyna the
writer of this. 3 weeksof Easter 10 Ed. I. (19 Apr. 1282)
East Riding of Yorkshire Archives and Records Service: Chichester-
Constable Family [DDCC/135/51]
Hope that's some help - but it looks like I have to reorganise the
family tree (again) Who was Joan, Simon's first wife?
Regards,
John
wjhonson
See
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.genealogy.medieval/msg/95d7b9a893ca06cd?
paying attention to where Robert mentions his *own son John*
This cannot be reconciled, as it stands, there is something wrong.
Will Johnson
mard...@yahoo.com
of Robert by an previous wife, not Avice Lascelles.
Mardi
wjhonson
--------------
That isn't sufficient Mardi. Count the years, they just don't add up,
the statements cannot fit no matter how you jig it. One of them has
to be wrong.
Will
John Watson
> Thank you John.
> Seehttp://groups.google.com/group/soc.genealogy.medieval/msg/95d7b9a893c...
>
> paying attention to where Robert mentions his *own son John*
>
> This cannot be reconciled, as it stands, there is something wrong.
>
> Will Johnson
Hi Will,
"Defeasance of Acknowledgement before the King's justices at York by
Sir Robert son of Simon le Constable de Holdernesse, ('Mon. after
quindene St. Martin 2 Ed. I - i.e. 27 Nov. 1273) that he owes his son
John £2,000 of silver ...."
I see what you mean, but it would make a lot more sense if the date
was 2 Edward III instead of 2 Edward I. Perhaps a mistake?
Simon le Constable died in prison in 1293 (or probably the early part
of 1294 by our reckoning).
The Annals of Dunstable record that in 1293: "Eodem anno justiciarii
itinerantes apud Eboracum valde rigide se gerebant; et quendam
nobilem, Simonem le Constable nomine, de multiis feloniis arreptatum,
ad poenitentiam statuti poserunt, quia veredictum patriae recusavit.
Et, mortuus est in prisona".
Henry Richards Luard, ed., Annales Monastici, Vol III, Rolls Series,
(London: 1866) p 377
Seems that Simon was a bad boy and had committed "multiis feloniis".
Regards,
John
mard...@yahoo.com
I do not have a solution with the material I have in hand.
Another discrepancy I find is that Sir Simon is given a dau.
Erneburga. He may have had such a dau, but I suspect she was his
stepdaughter:
A2A, East Riding of Yorkshire Archives and Records Seervice: Records
of the Chichester-Constable family - "Records and Deeds mentioned in
the large Pedigree of the Constables" - ref. DDCC/135/51
[from Scope and Content] 16 Demise for a year: Dame Katherine, widow
of Sir John de Dantorp to Sir Simon the Constable property all her
land of Pinndaxe and Skefcling with her manor of Pinnhaxe. And (for
herself, and for her daughter (and Sir John's) Erneburg) all property
falling to them on death of Sir John in Wencop, Pinndhaxe and
Skefcling Rendering £10. Witn. Sir John de Frismarais, Sir Fulk the
Constable. Morrow of Pentecost, 1277.
Mardi
John P. Ravilious
A most interesting find: many thanks for bringing this forward,
and also for the ongoing discussion of the 'other' problematic
Constable family.
I must agree with John Watson, the 1273 date assigned to the
'Defeasance of Acknowledgement' [A2A, East Riding of Yorkshire
Archives and Records Service: Chichester-Constable Family [DDCC/111 -
DDCC/135] , "Records and Deeds mentioned in the large Pedigree of the
Constables" : DDCC/135/51, No. 26] must be in error. We know Simon le
Constable must have been born no earlier than say 1230, and likely
somewhat later: his parents William le Constable and Cecily de Thweng
were married in Sept. 1227 or soon thereafter, and Simon was a younger
son [1]. Simon's son Sir Robert le Constable was likely born no
earlier than 1250, and most likely closer to 1264/5 as John W. has
pointed out. It is inconceivable that Sir Robert or his son John (if
in fact John was even born by 1273) would have been of an age to enter
into such a transaction in 1273.
A date of 2 Edward III (1327) can be put forward as being rather
likely, I think. There is another contemporary record, the gift by
Matilda/Maud de Lascelles to her sister Avice and her (Avice's)
husband Sir Robert le Constable of her 1/4 share of the manor of Kirby
Knowle dated 12 March 1324/25. This record (see below) was witnessed
by William de la Tower and Walter de Fauconberg among others: these
two were evidently the gentlemen of the same name who witnessed the
Deafeasance, allegedly in 1273. I think 1327 makes far more sense,
and can be supported by the foregoing.
Looking forward to spending more time on such matters, once the
Ides of April (plus two days) have passed.
Cheers,
John
NOTES
[1] Record of a gift in free marriage, Sept 1227:
' Gift: Marmaduke de Tweng to William the Constable of Holderness, in
marriage with his daughter Cicely property �7. rents in co. Lincs.
(i.e. 100s. from Prior and convent of Sixell for land in Legelby and
Wivelingham; and 40s. from Robert de Hotham for the town of Hotham)
Witn. Fulk de Oyri, John de Athona, Walter de Grendalle, Roger
Agillum, John de Elington, Gilbert de Athona, Simon the Constable,
William de Driffeud, Simon de Stutevill, Thomas de Hotham, William de
Burton, Walter de Hotham, Walter de Edlington, Thomas de Melsa,
Robert
de Galmetun. (Sep. 1227) ' [A2A, East Riding of Yorkshire Archives
and Records Service: Chichester-Constable Family [DDCC/111 - DDCC/
135], Reference: DDCC/135/51 : "Records and Deeds mentioned in the
large Pedigree of the Constables" ]
[2] The agreement dated 12 March 1324/25:
' Gift: Matilda widow of Sir Robert de Tilliol to Sir Robert le
Constable of Holdernesse and his wife Dame Avice property
all her share of the manor of Kirby-underknoll, With 1 messuage,
1 bovate, 46�
ac. 1r. 10 p., and rents of 4s. 8�d. and 1 lb. of pepper in Eskryk
(Reserving a fourth part of the manor of the town and of the advowson
of Estkryk) ie the messuage William Foster holds at will, a bovate
Henry Pechard sometime held, 31 ac. 1r. 10 p. in Prestring, 2� ac. in
Robriding, 3 ac. in Martinriding, 3 ac., 2s. 8�d yearly from Matilda
de Eskryk for a messuage and 2 bovates, and 2s. and 1 lb. pepper
yearly from Emma de Sellis for a messuage and 2 bovates.
.......
In exchange for all their property in the manor of Ellerton super
Derwent
Witn. Sir William de Thweng or Tweng, John de Sutton, William
de la Tower, Thomas de Pyke, Walter de Fauconbridge, Roger de la Hay.
Given at Halsham in Holdernesse, St. Gregory 1324. ' - A2A, East
Riding of Yorkshire Archives and Records Service: Chichester-Constable
Family [DDCC/111 - DDCC/135], DDCC/135/51
On Apr 8, 7:27�pm, mardi...@yahoo.com wrote:
> To John Ravilious and other interested parties,
>
> I stumbled on an interesting piece in Sue Walker's "Wife and Widow in
> Medieval England" regarding the wives of Simon le Constable (d. 1294),
> in which it is stated that Simon's son Robert is the son of Simon's
> first wife Joan, not his third wife Katherine. �He had a rather
> colorful marital history with his first wife being murdered, and
> sqabbles between his second and third wives over dower and the
> estate. �It can be found in Limited Preview at
>
> http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA94&lpg=PA94&dq=simon++constable&lr...
John Watson
Hi John,
Glad to see you back.
Here's a few more snippets regarding Simon and his second? or third?
wife:
1275, octaves of B.V.M, Penance of Simon Constable for adultery with
Katherine, wife of Sir John Danthorpe. He bound himself to pay £100 to
the succour of the Holy Land if he transgressed again.
Surtees Society, Vol 104, The Register of Walter Giffard, Lord
Archbishop of York, 1266-1279 (Durham: 1904) p 282
15 April 1280 - Mandate to the dean of Holderness to publish the
excommunications of Simon Constable and Katherine, widow of John of
Danthorpe. p 94
17 April 1280 - Mandate to the same that Constable having been
absolved, the publication was not to be made. p 94
16 November 1280: Mandate to the dean of Holderness to cite Katherine
of Danethorpe to appear before the archbishop to answer certain
charges. p 105
26 June 1282: Decision in favour of the marriage of Simon Constable
and Katherine de Weelaby p 282
Surtees Society, Vol 114, The Register of William Wickwane: Lord
Archbishop of York, 1279-1285 (Durham: 1907)
20 June 1294: Pardon to Catherine, late the wife of Simon le
Conestable, for having, as is said prepared a poison (intoxicacom')
for John de Danethorp, sometime her husband, Joan, sometime the wife
of the said Simon, and Henry de Thorleye, whereof she was indicted
before Hugh de Cressingham and his fellows, justices in eyre in the
county of York
Calendar of Patent Rolls, Edward 1, Vol 3, p 76
Regards,
John
Renia
If this is any use: Robert le constable was still alive 1334/5 but was
dead by 1337/8 when Avis le Constable was lord of the manor. (Maunby
Court Roll)
Avis le Constable was one of the four daughters of Roger Lascelles: Joan
who married Thomas de Colewen; Maud who married Robert de Tilliol and
Theophania who married Ralph son of Ranulph [of Maunby]. According to De
Banco, these marriages all took place before 1303-4. "It" [the manor of
Kirby Wiske] was settled on Robert and Avis and her heirs by Hubert le
Constable in 1329-30 [Feet of F. Yorks. 3 Edw III, no 42] (A History of
Yorkshire, North Riding)
In 1279-81 Roger Lascelles held the manor [of Maunby] and it passed from
him to the Constables [Plac. de Quo Warr., Rec Comm, 100; Kirkby's Inq,
Surtees Soc, 334.](ibid)
wjhonson
http://books.google.com/books?id=Wr4GAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA130&dq=constable+fauconberg
Review the footnote and try the chronology.
Something is screwy.
Will Johnson
John Watson
>
> Review the footnote and try the chronology.
> Something is screwy.
>
> Will Johnson
Hi Will,
I think the editor of the Guisborough Chartulary may be incorrect in
identifying John de Faucomberge "of Skelton" as the husband of Ela
Constable, daughter of Simon Constable.
According to an sgm post by Chris Phillips on 14 Jul 2002, "Felton/
Faucomberge: Part 2: Joan the wife of Walter Faucomberge" :
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2002-07/1026646986
Ela married John de Faucomberge "of Bilton" a younger son of Walter de
Faucomberge of Skelton (d. 1304) and Agnes de Brus, sister and co-
heiress of Peter de Brus III, and NOT the John de Faucomberge of
Skelton, who was the son of Walter Faucomberge of Skelton, the elder
son of Walter de Faucomberge and Agnes Brus.
The post says that John de Faucomberge and Ela his wife, held land in
Tharlesthorp by the gift of Simon Conestable, knight, to John, with
his daughter Ela in free marriage and that the gift was before the
death of Avelina, countess of Aumale who died in 1274.
Assuming then that Ela was born about 1260-65, she would be of a
similar age to Robert Constable, so Ela was presumably the daughter of
Simon's first wife Joan.
Regards,
John
wjhonson
"Cartularium Prioratus de Gyseburne..." says in his footnote that it
is DUGDALE who assigns John de Fauconberg of Skelton as the eldest son
and heir of Walter de Fauconberg and that he was 26 years old at the
time of his father's death in 12E2.
Do you agree with this so far?
And then another John de Fauconberg with IPM 30 May 41E3 (note he is
not called of Skelton) dies and stands seized of lands which he
inherited as "consanguineus et haeres" of John de Fauconberge of
Skelton and Ela his wife.
If John (3rd Lord Fauconberg) is "Dominus Skelton", then his "kinsman"
cannot be heir to him and his wife since there is a line descending
*from* this Ela to at least the later 14th century in male tail.
wjhonson
his suggested reconstuction.
Will
John Watson
Hi again Will,
Some more snippets - another daughter of Simon Constable, but by which
wife I do not know:
4 Sep 1292: Robert de Ros, knight, acknowledges that he owes to
Clemencia, daughter of Simon le Conestable, 126l.; to be levied, in
default of payment, of his lands and chattels in co. Lincoln.
Cancelled on payment, acknowledged by Thomas de Boulton, Clemencia's
husband, and by her before the chancellor and Sir Roger Brabazun.
Calendar of Close Rolls, Edward I, Vol III, 1288-1296 (HMSO, London:
1904) p 273
18 Oct 1295: Katherine, late the wife of Simon le Conestable,
acknowledges that she owes to Thomas de Boulton and Clemencia, his
wife, 31 marks; to be levied, in default of payment, of her lands and
chattels in co. York.
Calendar of Close Rolls, Edward I, Vol III, 1288-1296 (HMSO, London:
1904) p 462
6 May 1323: Pardon to Thomas de Boulton and Clemencia his wife for
acquiring without licence in fee tail the manor of Hoton upon
Derewente from Robert de Boulton, who held it in chief ; with
restitution of the same.
Calendar of Patent Rolls, Edward 2, Vol 4, p 285
Robert de Bolton was certified lord of Bolton near Yapham, and also of
Appleton in Ryedale, in 1316. Thomas de Bolton, son of Robert, brother
and heir of John de Bolton, held the manor of Hutton-upon-Derwent in
1300 and 1316, and also possessed property at Sandburn and Carlton in
the vicinity of York.
Surtees Society, Vol 49, Kirkby's Inquest (Durham: 1866) p 257n
Regards,
John