Renaud, Comte de Soissons, d. 1057.

[Doug]

Europäische Stammtafeln, J.A. Stargardt Verlag, Marburg, Schwennicke,
Detlev (Ed.), Reference: III 729a.

Shows this Comte as the son of Nocher II Bar-sur-Aube and his wife
Aelis de Soissons, daughter of Gui, Comte de Soissons. Other sources
show Renaud as the son of Gui and his wife Adelaide d'Anjou.

Does anyone know which is correct and what the original sources state?

Doug Smith

[Peter Stewart]

No source tells us, hence the conflict.

It used to be thought that Renaud was the son of Gui, count of Soissons
and that they belonged to the comital family of Vermandois descended
from the Carolingians, but now this is discredited.

Renaud is usually supposed to have been a third son of Nocher II of
Bar-sur-Aube by Aelis of Soissons - however, he is not mentioned with
their two recorded sons, Nocher III of Bar-sur-Aube and Gui, archbishop
of Rheims, in sources for this immediate family.

Peter Stewart

[Doug]

Thank You Peter

Doug

[Peter Stewart]

I was writing from memory and the post above could be misleading.

First, there are only two men named Nocher who are known to have been
counts of Bar-sur-Aube - the first of them was living between October
1010 & October 1011 when he subscribed a charter of the bishop of Autun
along with his namesake son (who became his successor within the
following decade), his wife Adelisa and his brother Fulco, bishop of
Soissons. This charter has been misdated to 1003 in many 19th/20th
century works, following a mistake of Ernest Petit that has been
carelessly ascribed to Jean Mabillon or Edmond Martène.

The date matters in that genealogists following Maurice Chaume have
invented an earlier Nocher (supposedly father of the first above) who is
often taken to have been the count married to Adelisa of Soissons and
living in 1003.

The early generations of the Bar-sur-Aube family are obscure - a Norman
named Achard is said to have been the founder of La Ferté-sur-Aube,
apparently ca 925/40, and the Nocher living 1010/11 (husband of Adelisa,
brother of Bishop Fulco) is said to have been his son or descendant ("Ex
his Nocherius comes Suessionum egressus traditur"). Nothing is known to
fill in the evident chronological gap between these generations, hence
the invention of another Nocher as son of Achard.

The charter of 1010/11 was subscribed by two Nochers, father and son, by
Adelisa and then by a Renard who is assumed to have been another son of
hers since the next known count of Soissons was named Renard or Renaud
("S. Notcherii comitis. S. Notcherii filii eius. S. Adelise comitisse.
S. Raginardi").

However, he was not mentioned as one of her sons in the document known
as "Charta de advocatis cellae Firmitatis ad Albam", a genealogy of the
first comital family of Bar-sur-Aube. This was printed in Acta Sanctorum
where it is described, following Pierre-François Chifflet, as taken from
an ancient codex of Saint-Oyend abbey in the Jura ("ex veteri codice Ms.
S. Eugendi Jurensis"). Chifflet had actually found it in the collection
of the Bouhier family in Dijon, and it later passed with the library of
Clairvaux (bought by a later Bouhier) to the municipal library of
Troyes, now part of the Médiatèques de Grand Troyes (unfortunately it is
not yet digitised).

This manuscript by various hands, compiled over about 300 years, was
catalogued in the 19th century as Bouhier E83, and the genealogy (on
folio 6) was written in the 13th century. So much for the chronological
gap and the missing family member(s): there is no firm basis to believe,
as some have assumed, that this document is authoritative and was
directly connected to St Simon, count of Valois, who inherited
Bar-sur-Aube and then became a monk at Saint-Oyend in 1077. It may have
been a later paraphrase of some record made in his time, but more
probably it was written in the 13th century - perhaps by a monk from
Bar-sur-Aube visiting his home priory's parent house in the Jura.
Anyway, it is far from being iron-clad evidence for or against the
parentage of Renaud, count of Soissons.

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

On 20/11/2011 6:13 PM, Peter Stewart wrote:

<snip>

> The early generations of the Bar-sur-Aube family are obscure - a Norman
> named Achard is said to have been the founder of La Ferté-sur-Aube,
> apparently ca 925/40, and the Nocher living 1010/11 (husband of Adelisa,
> brother of Bishop Fulco) is said to have been his son or descendant ("Ex
> his Nocherius comes Suessionum egressus traditur"). Nothing is known to
> fill in the evident chronological gap between these generations, hence
> the invention of another Nocher as son of Achard.

The gap is only evident because some historians have asserted that La
Ferté-sur-Aube was founded ca 925, or as late as ca 940 according to
others, but I haven't been able to find any solid basis for this.

It is notable that the Norman Achard is given a wife named Achardia -
obviously these are Christian names, and together would be a rather
implausible co-incidence unless they had been acquired in tandem, by the
couple being converted together and baptised after their marriage.

In this case a fairly likely source would have been the bishop whose
diocese included Bar-sur-Aube, Achard of Langres - but he was not bishop
until 948 (died 27 December 967).

If Achard founded La Ferté-sur-Aube during that period it would not be
too much of a stretch for him and Achardia to have been the parents of
Nocher I (living 1010/11, husband of Adelisa) and of his brother Fulco,
bishop of Soissons from ca 995 to ca 1015.

Then Chaume's proposal of an intervening generation becomes unnecessary,
failing proof (which he did not offer) that Achard was lord of La
Ferté-sur-Aube before 948.

Peter Stewart

[Volucris]

On 20 nov, 12:20, Peter Stewart <pss...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
> On 20/11/2011 6:13 PM, Peter Stewart wrote:
>
> <snip>
>

> If Achard founded La Ferté-sur-Aube during that period it would not be
> too much of a stretch for him and Achardia to have been the parents of
> Nocher I (living 1010/11, husband of Adelisa) and of his brother Fulco,
> bishop of Soissons from ca 995 to ca 1015.

As the minimum age for starting to functioning as an bishop usually
was 30 (unless age dispensation), Fulco was born ca.965 at the latest.
In most instances it were younger sons who choose a religious career
so Nocher I would most likely have been elder.

Hans Vogels

[Peter Stewart]

On 21/11/2011 5:54 AM, Volucris wrote:
> On 20 nov, 12:20, Peter Stewart<pss...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>> On 20/11/2011 6:13 PM, Peter Stewart wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> If Achard founded La Ferté-sur-Aube during that period it would not be
>> too much of a stretch for him and Achardia to have been the parents of
>> Nocher I (living 1010/11, husband of Adelisa) and of his brother Fulco,
>> bishop of Soissons from ca 995 to ca 1015.
>
> As the minimum age for starting to functioning as an bishop usually
> was 30 (unless age dispensation), Fulco was born ca.965 at the latest.
> In most instances it were younger sons who choose a religious career
> so Nocher I would most likely have been elder.

Yes, but this does not help to determine if Fulco and Nocher were more
probably grandsons of Achard who founded La Ferté-sur-Aube ca 925 or
perhaps his sons if this date should be pushed back to 948 or later.

Chaume acknowledged the possibility that it was ca 950, but not with
reference to the name Achard - his proposal was that it took place soon
after the incursion of Normans into Burgundy in the winter of 924, but
he noted that it could have been closer to the time that Renaud, assumed
to have been another Norman (Ragnvald), became count of Roucy ca 945/50.

Going back to the original question, Chaume speculated that Renaud,
count of Soissons was son of Nocher I of Bar-sur-Aube by Adelisa,
daughter of Guido, count of Soissons who was called a cousin of Renaud
of Roucy's presumed sons Count Giselbert and Bruno, bishop of Langres.

In his version Guido was the son of Waldric, count of Soissons, though
Chaume typically over-egged the pudding by making Waldric a paternal
half-brother of Renaud of Roucy - the relationship in the next
generation could have come about through Guido's mother whether or not
she was Waldric's wife.

By the way, the date 966 often given for the last occurrence of Count
Waldric is dubious - this is derived from an undated charter of Geoffroy
Grisegonelle of Anjou establishing regular monks at Saint-Aubin
d'Angers, which the editor ascribed to 19 June 966 because this is the
date given for the event in the annals of the abbey. However, a later
copyist had most probably misread the year given by the original
annalist as 963 (DCCCCLXIII) rather than 966 (DCCCCLXVI), since Wibold,
the first regular abbot, gave a charter clearly dated in May 964.

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

On 13/11/2011 12:08 PM, Peter Stewart wrote:

> On 13/11/2011 4:40 AM, Doug wrote:

>> Europ�ische Stammtafeln, J.A. Stargardt Verlag, Marburg, Schwennicke,

>> Detlev (Ed.), Reference: III 729a.
>>
>> Shows this Comte as the son of Nocher II Bar-sur-Aube and his wife
>> Aelis de Soissons, daughter of Gui, Comte de Soissons. Other sources
>> show Renaud as the son of Gui and his wife Adelaide d'Anjou.
>>
>> Does anyone know which is correct and what the original sources state?
>
> No source tells us, hence the conflict.
>
> It used to be thought that Renaud was the son of Gui, count of Soissons
> and that they belonged to the comital family of Vermandois descended
> from the Carolingians, but now this is discredited.

I was informed off-list that sources are presented in the Medieval Lands
database indicating that Gui, count of Soissons belonged to the
Vermandois family.

Unfortunately Charles Cawley has made his usual hash of the evidence,
achieving his usual high ratio of errors to word count. Yet people will
persist in using his work as a reference - what a tedious bane it will
be to medieval genealogists for many, many years to come...

To make this instance clear I will quote from Cawley in lines beginning
with |> and adding his endnotes in square brackets, with my comments
interspersed:

|> GUY [I], son of [HERIBERT [II] Comte de Vermandois & his wife
|> Adela [Capet]] (-after [986]). Dormay, in his Histoire de la
|> ville de Soissons, records that "M. Renaut�dit avoir vu un
|> manuscrit de Sainte-Croix d�Offemont, lequel ne se trouve plus"
|> in which "Guy Comte de Soissons est appell� fils de Heribert
|> Comte de Vermandois" [1917 - Dormay, C. (1664) Histoire de la
|> ville de Soissons et de ses rois, ducs, comtes et gouverneurs
|> (Soissons), Vol. II, Livre V, Chap. I, p. 3.].

Dormay was citing an unverifiable recollection of Melchior Regnault in
_Abr�g� de l'histoire de l'ancienne ville de Soissons, contenant une
sommaire d�duction g�n�alogique des comtes dudit lieu_ (Paris, 1633),
stating that he had seen an old manuscript in which Gui was called son
to Heribert of Vermandois. The value of this is negligible - no such
document could be found by Dormay, while Sainte-Croix d'Off�mont was a
Celestine priory near Soissons founded in 1329 by Jean de Nesle -
although some older documents were no doubt held in its library there is
very little likelihood of any original charter or chronicle dating from
the time of Gui and Heribert. It is much more likely that Regnault's
memory was at fault. Dormay thought there was some value in repeating
this as useful authority, but Cawley has not even bothered to find out
who "M. Renaut" was.

|> Comte de Soissons. "�Wido comes�" confirmed the charter dated
|> Jun 974 under which Lothaire King of the West Franks confirmed
|> the privileges of the monastery of Saint-Thierry near Reims [1918
|> RHGF IX, XXIV, p. 634].

Wrong and inaccurate - the charter is a forgery and was dated 26 May
974, not June ("sub die VII kalendas junii"). It was printed in the
false acts section of _Recueil des actes de Lothaire et de Louis V, rois
de France (954�987)_, edited by Louis Halphen & Ferdinand Lot (Paris,
1908), but despite using this edition elsewhere Cawley has here used
instead the earlier _Receuil des historiens_ volume (1874), in which the
document was printed as genuine.

|> Lothaire King of the West Franks confirmed the privileges of
|> the monastery of Saint-Eloy de Noyon, established by "pi� memori�
|> nepos noster Lyudulfus Noviomanorum episcopus�assentientibus
|> fratribus suis nepotibus nostris Alberto Viromandensi comite et
|> Guidone", by charter dated to [980/986], signed by "Alberti
|> Viromandensis comitis, Guidonis fratris eius�" [1919 RHGF IX,
|> XLI, p. 654].

Again Cawley has relied on the older edition and fallen into the same
mistake, compounded by nonsense - this is another forged charter of King
Lothair, undated but ostensibly issued between 979 and 986. Cawley has
missed the salient point that the forger gave an account of the family
that flagrantly contradicts the known facts and for good measure the
fiction he is trying to substantiate - in this version Liudolf, bishop
of Noyon is mentioned as already dead (whereas he almost certainly
outlived Lothair), Albert of Vermandois and a Gui (not called count or
linked to Soissons) are stated to be his brothers, and all of them
nephews of Lothair as sons of the king's sister ("Lyudulfus, Noviomorum
episcopus ... astantibus et assentientibus fratribus suis, nepotibus
nostris, Alberto Viromandensi comite et Guidone, cum omni districtu et
integritate totius libertatis contradiderat et nos precibus ipsorum pie
faventes, utpote qui ea sorori mee, matri eorum, dederamus"). However,
Lothair's maternal half-sister Gerberga was not the mother but the wife
of Albert, and mother of his sons Heribert, Odo and Liudolf. There was
no Gui in the family.

|> "Adalbertus comes, Heriberti comitis, Vidonis comitis�"
|> subscribed the charter dated to [980] under which "Adalbertus
|> comes�in meo Virodumensi comitatu" founded the abbey of Mont-Saint-
|> Quentin near P�ronne [1920 Gallia Christiana, Tome X, Instrumenta,
|> col. 359].

This charter is unexceptionable, but standing apart from the forgeries
above it provides no evidence of any blood relationship between Albert
of Vermandois and Gui of Soissons.

Peter Stewart

[Doug]

On Nov 22, 7:35 am, Peter Stewart <pss...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
> On 13/11/2011 12:08 PM, Peter Stewart wrote:
>
> > On 13/11/2011 4:40 AM, Doug wrote:

> >> Europ ische Stammtafeln, J.A. Stargardt Verlag, Marburg, Schwennicke,

> >> Detlev (Ed.), Reference: III 729a.
>
> >> Shows this Comte as the son of Nocher II Bar-sur-Aube and his wife
> >> Aelis de Soissons, daughter of Gui, Comte de Soissons. Other sources
> >> show Renaud as the son of Gui and his wife Adelaide d'Anjou.
>
> >> Does anyone know which is correct and what the original sources state?
>
> > No source tells us, hence the conflict.
>
> > It used to be thought that Renaud was the son of Gui, count of Soissons
> > and that they belonged to the comital family of Vermandois descended
> > from the Carolingians, but now this is discredited.
>
> I was informed off-list that sources are presented in the Medieval Lands
> database indicating that Gui, count of Soissons belonged to the
> Vermandois family.
>
> Unfortunately Charles Cawley has made his usual hash of the evidence,
> achieving his usual high ratio of errors to word count. Yet people will
> persist in using his work as a reference - what a tedious bane it will
> be to medieval genealogists for many, many years to come...
>
> To make this instance clear I will quote from Cawley in lines beginning
> with |> and adding his endnotes in square brackets, with my comments
> interspersed:
>
> |> GUY [I], son of [HERIBERT [II] Comte de Vermandois & his wife
> |> Adela [Capet]] (-after [986]).  Dormay, in his Histoire de la

> |> ville de Soissons, records that "M. Renaut dit avoir vu un
> |> manuscrit de Sainte-Croix d Offemont, lequel ne se trouve plus"
> |> in which "Guy Comte de Soissons est appell fils de Heribert

> |> Comte de Vermandois" [1917 - Dormay, C. (1664) Histoire de la
> |> ville de Soissons et de ses rois, ducs, comtes et gouverneurs
> |> (Soissons), Vol. II, Livre V, Chap. I, p. 3.].
>
> Dormay was citing an unverifiable recollection of Melchior Regnault in

> _Abr g de l'histoire de l'ancienne ville de Soissons, contenant une
> sommaire d duction g n alogique des comtes dudit lieu_ (Paris, 1633),

> stating that he had seen an old manuscript in which Gui was called son
> to Heribert of Vermandois. The value of this is negligible - no such

> document could be found by Dormay, while Sainte-Croix d'Off mont was a

> Celestine priory near Soissons founded in 1329 by Jean de Nesle -
> although some older documents were no doubt held in its library there is
> very little likelihood of any original charter or chronicle dating from
> the time of Gui and Heribert. It is much more likely that Regnault's
> memory was at fault. Dormay thought there was some value in repeating
> this as useful authority, but Cawley has not even bothered to find out
> who "M. Renaut" was.
>

> |> Comte de Soissons.  " Wido comes " confirmed the charter dated

> |> Jun 974 under which Lothaire King of the West Franks confirmed
> |> the privileges of the monastery of Saint-Thierry near Reims [1918
> |> RHGF IX, XXIV, p. 634].
>
> Wrong and inaccurate - the charter is a forgery and was dated 26 May
> 974, not June ("sub die VII kalendas junii"). It was printed in the
> false acts section of _Recueil des actes de Lothaire et de Louis V, rois

> de France (954 987)_, edited by Louis Halphen & Ferdinand Lot (Paris,

> 1908), but despite using this edition elsewhere Cawley has here used
> instead the earlier _Receuil des historiens_ volume (1874), in which the
> document was printed as genuine.
>
> |>  Lothaire King of the West Franks confirmed the privileges of

> |> the monastery of Saint-Eloy de Noyon, established by "pi memori
> |> nepos noster Lyudulfus Noviomanorum episcopus assentientibus

> |> fratribus suis nepotibus nostris Alberto Viromandensi comite et
> |> Guidone", by charter dated to [980/986], signed by "Alberti

> |> Viromandensis comitis, Guidonis fratris eius " [1919 RHGF IX,

> |> XLI, p. 654].
>
> Again Cawley has relied on the older edition and fallen into the same
> mistake, compounded by nonsense - this is another forged charter of King
> Lothair, undated but ostensibly issued between 979 and 986. Cawley has
> missed the salient point that the forger gave an account of the family
> that flagrantly contradicts the known facts and for good measure the
> fiction he is trying to substantiate - in this version Liudolf, bishop
> of Noyon is mentioned as already dead (whereas he almost certainly
> outlived Lothair), Albert of Vermandois and a Gui (not called count or
> linked to Soissons) are stated to be his brothers, and all of them
> nephews of Lothair as sons of the king's sister ("Lyudulfus, Noviomorum
> episcopus ... astantibus et assentientibus fratribus suis, nepotibus
> nostris, Alberto Viromandensi comite et Guidone, cum omni districtu et
> integritate totius libertatis contradiderat et nos precibus ipsorum pie
> faventes, utpote qui ea sorori mee, matri eorum, dederamus"). However,
> Lothair's maternal half-sister Gerberga was not the mother but the wife
> of Albert, and mother of his sons Heribert, Odo and Liudolf. There was
> no Gui in the family.
>
> |>  "Adalbertus comes, Heriberti comitis, Vidonis comitis "

> |> subscribed the charter dated to [980] under which "Adalbertus

> |> comes in meo Virodumensi comitatu" founded the abbey of Mont-Saint-
> |> Quentin near P ronne [1920 Gallia Christiana, Tome X, Instrumenta,

> |> col. 359].
>
> This charter is unexceptionable, but standing apart from the forgeries
> above it provides no evidence of any blood relationship between Albert
> of Vermandois and Gui of Soissons.
>
> Peter Stewart

Thank you Peter

I have seen many garbled accounts of this on the web.

Doug Smith

[Peter Stewart]

On 23/11/2011 3:07 AM, Doug wrote:
> On Nov 22, 7:35 am, Peter Stewart<pss...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>> On 13/11/2011 12:08 PM, Peter Stewart wrote:
>>
>>> On 13/11/2011 4:40 AM, Doug wrote:
>>>> Europ ische Stammtafeln, J.A. Stargardt Verlag, Marburg, Schwennicke,
>>>> Detlev (Ed.), Reference: III 729a.
>>
>>>> Shows this Comte as the son of Nocher II Bar-sur-Aube and his wife
>>>> Aelis de Soissons, daughter of Gui, Comte de Soissons. Other sources
>>>> show Renaud as the son of Gui and his wife Adelaide d'Anjou.
>>
>>>> Does anyone know which is correct and what the original sources state?
>>
>>> No source tells us, hence the conflict.
>>
>>> It used to be thought that Renaud was the son of Gui, count of Soissons
>>> and that they belonged to the comital family of Vermandois descended
>>> from the Carolingians, but now this is discredited.
>>
>> I was informed off-list that sources are presented in the Medieval Lands
>> database indicating that Gui, count of Soissons belonged to the
>> Vermandois family.
>>
>> Unfortunately Charles Cawley has made his usual hash of the evidence,
>> achieving his usual high ratio of errors to word count. Yet people will
>> persist in using his work as a reference - what a tedious bane it will
>> be to medieval genealogists for many, many years to come...
>>
>> To make this instance clear I will quote from Cawley in lines beginning
>> with |> and adding his endnotes in square brackets, with my comments
>> interspersed:
>>

>> |> GUY [I], son of [HERIBERT [II] Comte de Vermandois& his wife

>> de France (954 987)_, edited by Louis Halphen& Ferdinand Lot (Paris,

I should have continued with the last occurrence of Gui as presented in
Medieval Lands:

|> He visited Rome in the mid-980s: Gerbert requested "Stephano
|> Romanę ęcclesię diacono" to return books to him by "Guidonem
|> Suessonicum comitem", dated to late 984 [1921 Havet, J. (1889)
|> Lettres de Gerbert (983-997) (Paris), 40, p. 38].

Havet actually provided a narrower dating for this request from Gerbert
in 984, to November or early December; but this was revised in the 1966
edition by Fritz Weigle to September/October.

However, it is not the last occurrence of Gui - he was taken prisoner by
Charles of Laon at Rheims in the late summer or early spring of 989, and
was evidently still living on 18 June 991 when his cousin Bruno, bishop
of Langres recounted this episode during the second session of the
council of Verzy, referring to him along with the bishop's only brother
Giselbert, count of Roucy as one of the men most dear to him ("homines
mihi percharos et ad usum vitę multum necessarios, id est unicum fratrem
meum comitem Gislebertum, meumque consobrinum comitem Guidonem"). In
this context it is unlikely that Bruno would have passed over the fact
if Gui had recently died.

The description of Gui as a cousin is actually the most plausible reason
to suggest that he could have been a son of Albert - but not Heribert -
of Vermandois. Albert's wife Gerberga was a sister of Alberada, the
mother of Bruno and Giselbert. As noted earlier in this thread, Maurice
Chaume proposed another way for these men to have been cousins, though
his conjecture is not the only possible solution - for instance, Gui
might have been the son of Waldric, count of Soissons by a sister of
Renaud of Roucy.

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

On 23/11/2011 1:58 PM, Peter Stewart wrote:

> I should have continued with the last occurrence of Gui as presented in
> Medieval Lands:
>
> |> He visited Rome in the mid-980s: Gerbert requested "Stephano

> |> Romanæ æcclesiæ diacono" to return books to him by "Guidonem

> |> Suessonicum comitem", dated to late 984 [1921 Havet, J. (1889)
> |> Lettres de Gerbert (983-997) (Paris), 40, p. 38].
>
> Havet actually provided a narrower dating for this request from Gerbert
> in 984, to November or early December; but this was revised in the 1966
> edition by Fritz Weigle to September/October.
>
> However, it is not the last occurrence of Gui - he was taken prisoner by
> Charles of Laon at Rheims in the late summer or early spring of 989, and
> was evidently still living on 18 June 991 when his cousin Bruno, bishop
> of Langres recounted this episode during the second session of the
> council of Verzy, referring to him along with the bishop's only brother
> Giselbert, count of Roucy as one of the men most dear to him ("homines

> mihi percharos et ad usum vitæ multum necessarios, id est unicum fratrem

> meum comitem Gislebertum, meumque consobrinum comitem Guidonem"). In
> this context it is unlikely that Bruno would have passed over the fact
> if Gui had recently died.

In fact he hadn't - Gui, count of Soissons was still alive in the
following year, and perhaps for a few more years.

He subscribed a charter of Gautier I, count of Valois restoring usurped
estates to Saint-Crépin de Soissons. This must have been after 7 January
992 because it was also subscribed by Gautier's son Foulques as a bishop
(of Amiens), which he became after the death of his predecessor on 7
January in or after 992 - see William Mendel Newman, _Catalogue des
actes de Robert II, roi de France_ (Paris, 1937) p. 8 no. 8.

The charter was printed by Mabillon in _Annales ordinis sancti
Benedicti_ vol. 4 (1707 edition) p. 690, appendix no. 10 ("Sign.
Fulconis episcopi ... Signum Guidonis comitis Suession.").

Peter Stewart