Which Thorold?
G . EDWARD ALLEN
>
> I've got a little known early 11th century "princeps" called Aelfgar with
> enough money to pay well over the odds for land threatened by the Vikings
> and whose descendants Aelfweard, Alward and Willam manage to keep their land
> through the conquest.
>
> Next door I've got a possible goldsmith called Thorold probably son of
> Geoffrey and father of Nicholas probably lord Aston. Possibly designer of
> the Bayeaux tapestry. Is he Godiva's brother? Is he Lucy's dad? Is he
> sheriff of Lincoln and / or Nottingham? Is he related to Hereward's sworn
> enemy Abbot Thorold of Peterborough? Our main car park in Maidenhead is
> named after him! His name (like Godiva's) comes in every conceivable
> version.
>
> Celia
>
> <Via Paul's internet account>
Which is part of the problem. There are several, if not many, Thorolds.
I don't think that anybody has sufficiently sorted through them.
In the Lucy problem, the question is: Is the Thorold, kinsman of Lucy
identical with Thorold the Sheriff? Farrer thought not. Keats-Rohan
and Kirk do or did think so.
Kay Allen AG all...@pacbell.net
KHF...@aol.com
In a message dated 10/7/98 2:32:24 AM, pa...@pblay.force9.co.uk writes:
<<Is he Godiva's brother? Is he Lucy's dad? Is he sheriff of Lincoln and / or
Nottingham? Is he related to Hereward's sworn enemy Abbot Thorold of
Peterborough? Our main car park in Maidenhead is named after him! His name
(like Godiva's) comes in every conceivable version. >>
There is more than one Thorold. I am willing to accept the traditional view
that he was actually Godiva's father and sheriff of Lincoln as recorded by
Faris in _The Plantagenet Ancestry_. After all the electrons 'spilled' here
and all the ink 'spilled' elsewhere, this is still befuddled.
This is one of the last puzzles I was trying to conclude before actually
printing THE ANCESTRY OF ELIZABETH OF YORK. Marlyn Lewis, the compiler, has
kept the ancestry along the traditional lines as recorded by Faris and Turton,
i.e, Lucy's father is the son of Leofric and Lady Godiva. Even though some
modernists believe that the Leofric connection is invalid, I still tend to
think that it makes more sense than the alternatives, therefore I am solving
the problem by noting that the connection is disputed and printing the
traditional information anyway.
There are several reasons for so doing:
CP: "The link between Lucy and Aelfgar is the manor of Spalding, County
Lincoln, which was held by Aelfgar before the Conquest and by Lucy's first
husband, Ives Taillebois (in her right), at the time of Domesday. Other manors
of Thorold which passed to Lucy are Belchford, Scamblesby, Stenigot, Tetney
and Donington. (a) Lucy also held Alkborough, (b) which had belonged in the
time of the Confessor to William Malet, (c) father of Lucy's uncle Robert
Malet. If Lucy's mother was William Malet's daughter, this may have been her
maritagium; and the fact that Thorold gave tithes in this place (d) has been
advanced as evidence that he was her husband... the only known children of
Aelfgar are Edwin, Morcar and Aeldgitha, wife of Harold, and consequently the
passing of the manor of Spalding cannot be held to justify the inference that
Aelfgar was father of Lucy. "
The Croyland Charter is dismissed because it is a late or forged charter--not
quite contemporary--rewritten by the clergy to justify their possession of
lands, as is the case with most forged charters. That does not necessarily
mean that the genealogical information is absolutely false, but it does mean
"stop, look and listen." Nor does that fact that Lucy was not mentioned as
Aelfgar's daughter mean that she was absolutely not his daughter. The only
daughter mentioned was Agatha (Aeldgitha) who married Harold II--killed at
Hastings and she married a very famous figure. This is neither proof not
disproof that Lucy was her sister.
Regarding the confusion about the Lancasters, it seems that the monks were
confused and had the wrong information. "To this the monkish chroniclers have
added the fiction that he was the son of Ketel, son of Eldred, son of Ivo
Taillebois (Mon Angl iii 553 & Cockersands Cartulary, Chethem Soc (New Series)
xxxix 305), whereas he was almost, if not quite, contemporary with Ivo."
Richard Borthwick wrote: "If Lucy had a son by Ivo, presumably he would have
been heir to her lands and thence to the Lancaster family. From what I can
recall this is not what happened." An answer may be that the son, William,
died before his sister Beatrice. Then he would have been capable of
inheriting only a very small (4x8) plot of land. Beatrice, married Ribald,
the illegitimate son of Eudes. Also, Ivo had at least one--if not
more--illegitimate children. William may not have been Lucy's offspring, but
still a son of Ivo.
Faris has Aelfgar III married to Alvarissa Malet, daughter of William Malet.
Though Alfgar died in 1061, before the conquest, this marriage could still be
valid. Their daughter, according to this reconstruction, was Lucy.
Though this scenario seems to make the most sense to me, it will likely never
be proven. Neither will any alternative scenario be proven. For all the
revisionist 'ink spilled', and all the trillions of rearranged electrons, no
proof is obtainable now or in the future unless the future sees a major
archaeological discovery. Therefore, one can let the emotional side have some
weight ... and there is an emotional side:
Lady Godiva is one of the most famous of all women in the entire span of
history. The legend of her ride through the village stark naked on a horse
has inspired adolescent boys to late night visions for a thousand years. Each
and every one of these boys have become the 'peeping Tom' who could not help
but gaze upon that erotic scene.
If Lady Godiva is to remain in the historical record as a Plantagenet
ancestor, then the scenario of her family connections cannot--and should not
be--summarily discarded. To do so is a disservice to her memory and the
fantasies of young boys throughout the ages.
Kenneth Harper Finton
Editor/ Publisher
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