The impossible marriages of Katherine Brown
mj...@btinternet.com
Katherine, one of the daughters and coheirs of Sir Humphrey Brown, is
stated to have had three marriages.
However, closer investigation reveals chronological and other
inconsistencies that place these marriages in severe doubt.
(1) marriage to Richard Townshend.
According to the Visitation of Essex, 1612, p 166:
"Katherine, 3rd daughter and coheir, married 1st to Richard Townshend
of Raynham, Norfolk, and 2nd to William Roper, son and heir of Sir
Thomas Roper of Eltham, Kent"
According to Burke's Peerage (Marquessate of Townshend), Richard
Townshend died in 1551. According to ODNB, his son by Katherine -
Roger Townshend - was born circa 1544.
(2) marriage to William Roper
According to the Visitation of Kent, 1619, pp 82-84:
http://www.uk-genealogy.org.uk/england/Kent/visitation/index.html
"Sir William Roper of Eltham, son of Thomas Roper, married Katherine,
daughter and coheir of Sir William [sic] Brown of Ridley Hall, Essex,
justice of the Common Pleas", by whom he had three children: Anthony,
Thomas and Mary.
According to PROCAT, the will of William Roper of Eltham was proved
PCC 21 June 1578 (Prob 11/60). So far, so good.
(3) marriage to Peter Sainthill
According to the Visitation of Devon, 1620, p 249:
"Peter St Hill married 1stly Katherine, daughter and coheir of Si
Humphrey Browne; no issue".
Elsewhere, Peter is said to have died in 1571, and his second wife
Julian Shyne in 1569.
It seems impossible to square this account with the preceding two.
Clearly Katherine cannot have married
Does anyone know who wins???
Michael
mj...@btinternet.com
> Looking at various near-contemporary Visitation records, we find that
> Katherine, one of the daughters and coheirs of Sir Humphrey Brown, is
> stated to have had three marriages.
>
>
> According to the Visitation of Kent, 1619, pp 82-84:
>
> http://www.uk-genealogy.org.uk/england/Kent/visitation/index.html
>
> "Sir William Roper of Eltham, son of Thomas Roper, married Katherine,
> daughter and coheir of Sir William [sic] Brown of Ridley Hall, Essex,
> justice of the Common Pleas", by whom he had three children: Anthony,
> Thomas and Mary.
>
> According to PROCAT, the will of William Roper of Eltham was proved
> PCC 21 June 1578 (Prob 11/60).
Recte: this is the will of the elder William Roper (son-in-law of Sir
Thomas More); his son Thomas Roper married Lucy Brown, daughter of Sir
Anthony Brown (c1500-1548), the sister of the 1st Viscount Montague.
Thomas and Lucy Brown were the parents of Sir William Roper of Eltham,
purported husband of Katherine Brown.
MA-R
mj...@btinternet.com
Perhaps we can rule the Roper wedding out?
According to Collins's Peerage, 1812, vol vii, p 81, Sir William Roper
of Eltham married Catherine, daughter and coheir of Sir *Anthony*
Browne, of Ridley Hall, chief justice of the Commons Pleas; she was
buried at St Dunstan's, 20 February 1616.
But, according to ODNB, Sir Anthony Browne, chief justice of the
Common Pleas, nephew of Sir Humphrey Brown(e), died in 1567 without
issue.
MA-R
ADRIANCH...@aol.com
I was going to reply to your first two messages, but you have now covered
much of what I was going to write (except I had not seen the possible marriage
of Katherine to Peter Sainthill, so I had no problem with her). Instead I
give my transcription of Sir Humphrey's Will:
Summary of Will
Humfrey Browne (-Will 12 Nov 1562 pr 14 Jan 1562/3 request to be bur St
Martin’s the Orgar, Candlewick Str., London) Justice of Common Pleas,
Westminster; My wife Agnes; Sons: George Browne (s&h) Daughters: Mary Browne; Christain
Browne (to have pastures in Epping); Katherine Browne; probably all unmarried
as not to marry without permission; Brother-in-law: Sir Robert Throckmorton
knt; Nephew: Anthony Browne, Justice of Common Pleas, Westminster. Others:
Richard Townshen and wife Katherine [Humphry Browne’ daughter m a Richard
Townshend, but he had died 1544?] Property: Cow Lane, St Sepulchre, London; Manor
of Cryfield, Gloucs; rectory of Manden or Manndon als Battellshall, Essex;
Manor of Perryball [ac: ?= Perivale below] als Little Grindford, Middlesex
In the name of god amen I S^r^ Humfrey / Browne knighte one of the Queens
majestes Justies of her common pleas at Westm’ being of / whole mynde and
perfect memory praise be to god maketh thys my testament and laste will /
concerning my gooddes and landes hereafter declared the xij th daye of November in
the fourth / yere of the Raigne of o^r^ sorevaigne Ladie Elizabeth by the grace
of god of England ffrance and / Irelande Quene deffender of the faith etc,
in maner and forme followinge fforst I bequeath / my soule to almightie god my
boddie to be buried within the parish church of S^t^ Martins the / Orgars in
the cittie of London if I departe this presant life within tenne miles of the
same / cittie and that in noe sumptuns mannor but after a charitable fasshon
and the greatest case / therin to be donne for me to be bestowed and given
to the poore and nedie people also I will that / my debts be paid which I owe
and restitu’con be made to all men to whome I have donne wronge / in tymes
past yf it be well proved and I will that my plate and and other my movable
goods / content’aton therof ffurther I give to the saide Agnes my wief all my
household stuf and hangings / in my little chamber within my mannor house
adjoying to cowlane in the parish of Saint / Sepulkers in London in the Which
chamber my brother in lawe S^r^ Robert Throckmorton / knight is accustomed to lye
in and called by the name of his chamber with all manner thanplemete /
therein also I give to my saide wief my scarlet bed commonly called my feelde bedd
wholy withall / the bedde bedsteed couletts curtens and all other things to
the same belonging or any partetherof / Also I give to my said Wief all suche
goods and cattells that she had before the tyme I married / her that wise be
unsoulde and ungiven alvine and also all the proffetts and encreace of the
said // goods and cattalles ever sithens the tyme of the saide mariage Also I
will and give to my saide / wief all the rings chaynes of golde, villements
of golde Juells stones and golde pinyhes woorkes / etc whatsoever whiche she
now hath and had before the tyme I married her ffurther I give to my / my
daughter xp’ian my lease of cowleer being certayne pastures within the parrish of
Eppinge / in the countie of essex whereof Thomas Lycynes of Epping ys now
temiante ymmediatly after / my decease And from that tyme she shall have and
take the proffitts of the same Also I will / and give to every of my housholde
sr’nnts whiche take wage one quarter of a yeres wages next / after my decease
and meate and drinke for half a yere next following my decease yf they will
/ take yt and to every of the same my ser’nnts then in wage xx^s^ in money.
Now concerning / my will of my landes herafter following ffirst I will that
if George Browne my sonne and heire / apparante dye withoute issue of his
boddie laufully begotten that then immiadiatly after his / decease my Manor of
Cryfeld with thappt’enncs in the countie of Gloucter and my rectorie / of
Manden with thapp^r^te’nich in this countie of essex shall wholy remayne to Mary
Browne / xp’ian Browne, and kathren Browne my daughter and to theire heires
for ever Also where I / did entayle the mannor of Mannden otherwise called
Battellshalle in the saide countie of / essex and the mannor of perryball
othewise called littell Grindford in the countie of / Midd’ unto Richarde Towneshend
and to Kathyeren his wief and to theires of the boddie of the / same
kathcren lawfully begotten I will that yf thissue of the same Katheren of her boddie
lawfully / begotten dye withoute issue of their boddies lawfully begotten,
that then the same Manners / with theire appetenncs shall then ymmediatly
remayne to the said Mary xp’ian and katheryn / Browne my daughters and to theire
heirs for ev’ ffurthermore I ^will and^ give to the p’son and church
wardens / of the parish of St Martins the Orgars abovesaide and to theire
successors all those mysay) / messuage or tennements situate and being in Cowlane in
the parish of St Sepulkers about / standing and being on thest syde of my
greate gate of my saide man’con house to thintent that / they and every of them
and their successors shall give and dispose the Rents and proffitts of / the
same tennements in manner and forme following that is to saye that they and
every of / them shall yearley give and dispose every frydaye weekely from the
first daye of December / till the last daye of March then next following ij
horselods of charcoles amongst the / poore and nedest persons of the same
theire parrish another overplus of the said Rente and oth^r^ / proffitts to be
given amongst the poore people of theire saide parrish yearly from tyme to tyme
/ Provided alwayes that yf my said daughters or any of them doe marry
withoute the assente / and consente of Thomas Husse and Gilbert Husse gentlemen my
bretheren in Law Robert / Husse and John Husse of Greys Inne in the suburbs of
London or of the moste parte of / them that then yf the same my daughters or
any of them shall otherwise doe withoute theire / assents shall inherret noe
parcell of my saide lands, But that the same shall then remayne to / thother
of my saide daughters that shall marry by thassents aforsaide And of this my
present / testamente and laste will I ordayne and make Agnus my said wief my
sole exectrix to whome / I bequeathe and give the residue of my goods my
debts funeralls legacy and childrens por’cons / dyscharged And further doe
hartely desire and praye my nephew Anthony Browne one of ye / Queens majestes
inlawe of her common pleas at Westm’ that yt will please hym to be my / Overseer
of this my last will and testamente and also to ayde and helpe my saide wif
and my / younge children that they have noe wrongs And for his paynes that he
shall take therein I give / to hym all my bookes of the lawe In witnes whereof
to this my present testamente and last will / I have putto my hande and
seale in the presence of these persons following whose names be / hereunder
subscribed the daye and yere ^first^ above written Thomas Tressham John Raly
clarke Will’ / Elliot Robert Throckmorton Humfrey Browne Thomas Baggen Kay Bales
Roger Fairson /
Probatum ... Agnes Browne relicte et executrix... /
Indexed as Humphrey Browne, (Sir) one of the Queen's Majesty's Justice of
Her Common Pleas at Westminster; 14 January 1563; PROB 11/46
Regards,
Adrian
mj...@btinternet.com
Adrian to the rescue!
Many thanks. This will shows that Katherine the wife of Richard
Townshend and Katherine the daughter of Sir Humphrey Browne are two
different people.
It does seem that the latter was unmarried at the time that the will
was made (1562) - although it also seems that his son and heir George
Brown was then still lving (according to Vis. Essex he died in 1558).
This would mean that Katherine, wife of Richard Townshend and sister
of Robert Shelton was probably born Katherine Shelton, as Robert's
1535 will suggests, the daughter of Ald. Nicholas Shelton and
Elizabeth nee Rawlyns. She married Townshend between 1535 and 1544.
And perhaps Vis. Devon is correct in saying that, after Townshend's
death in 1551, she married Peter Sainthill and died without further
issue sometime before her second husband's second wife (who died in
1569).
Cheers, Michael
ADRIANCH...@aol.com
In a message dated 24/01/2008 12:00:18 GMT Standard Time,
mj...@btinternet.com writes:
MA-R
>>>>
I have noticed this error, also followed by Burke's (1938 ed. p 2402) and by
Hasted's History of Kent, but I had assumed they had confused Sir Anthony
Browne knt of Ridley Hall with William Ropers mother Lucy d of Sir Anthony
Browne (and sis of Vt Montague, an unconnected family) and that the Visitation of
Kent 1619-21 p83 which has Catherine's m to Sir William Roper of Eltham as
correct, but now looking at the dates, Katherin's 1st husband Richard Townsend
died 1544 (by whom she had issue) would seem to make her too old to have
also married Sir William Roper and had issue by him. Back to the drawing board,
I guess.
Adrian
ADRIANCH...@aol.com
Okay, I now see From what I wrote earlier and MA-R post (crossed in e-space)
it is the Richard Townsend marriage to Katherine Browne which is wrong.
This is also wrong in Burke's (1938 ed p 2431 Townsend) "Richard [Townsend] of
Brampton m Catherine, dau and coheir of Sir Humphrey Brown, Knt. of Ridley
Hall in Terling, Essex, one of the Justices of the Court of Common Pleas, and
d. 1544 (will proved 12 Feb. 1544), having by her (who m. 2ndly, Sir William
Roper)"
Adrian
In a message dated 24/01/2008 14:01:35 GMT Standard Time,
ADRIANCH...@aol.com writes:
I wrote
ADRIANCH...@aol.com
and _m2_ _Roger_ Townshend of Brampton and father of Sir Roger Townshend of
Rainham. Burke's has Sir Roger's father as the Richard who m Catherine Brown
(BTW Sir Roger Townshend's son JOHN TOWNSHEND was killed in a dual with
­Sir MATHEW­ ­BROWNE of Betchworth, Surrey who was also killed)
"Robert Browne had Robert, Humfrey and Wiston This Humfrey Browne was
brought up to the Law, in the Middle Temple, created a Serjeant at Law, in 1532;
made King's Serjeant in 1536; one of the Justices of the common Pleas 20
November 1543; afterwards knighted. He dyed 5 Septemb 1562 possessed of
Ridley-hall in Terling and of Whitey Roding (see the other Volume p 128, 469) He was
twice married, By Anne his first wife daughter of Sir Henry Vere of Great
Addington he had George who dyed before him leaving Thomas his son that dyed
without issue. By Anne his second wife, dau of John Lord Hussey, he had Mary,
wife of Thomas Wilford of Kent Esq., Christian of Sir John Tufton: and
Catharine wife of Sir William Roper, remarried after his decease to Roger Townshend
of Brampton in Suffolk Esq., father of Sir Roger Townshend of Rainham.
(Pedigree & Inquis 5 Eliz Nu 18 [Janu 19 below] [1563])"
(Morants Essex, page 469, Vol. I)
Adrian
In a message dated 24/01/2008 14:50:39 GMT Standard Time,
mj...@btinternet.com
> Morant's Essex has another version. Here Catherine Browne m1 William Roper
> Rainham. Burke's has Sir Roger's father as the Richard who m Catherine Brown
Boy, I'm almost sorry I opened this can of worms!
It seems clear from contemporary evidence (recited above) that:
Sir Humphrey Brown (d 1562)
married (1) Anne Vere, dead by 1515 - had a son George, married to
Anne Shelton
married (2) Elizabeth Shelton nee Rawlins in or about 1516
married (3) Agnes (Anne) Hussey, daughter of Lord Hussey, who survived
him.
It's not clear who Humphrey Brown's father was - some sources call him
Robert, others Thomas - but it seems he had a brother Sir Wistan/
Weston Brown who was in turn the father of Sir Anthony Brown, Chief
Justice of the Common Pleas.
The Visitation of Essex says that Sir Wistan had another son, John
Brown, who married Audrey Vere, sister of Anne (married to Sir
Humphrey) - which would mean an uncle and nephew married sisters - not
impossible. It shows John and Audrey as having a son George Brown -
who would thus be nephew to Sir Anthony Brown - but ODNB says Sir
Anthony was succeeded by his *brother* George.
I think Vis Essex has a very unreliable pedigree - although I note
ODNB seems to need several corrections too.
Turning to Sir Humphrey's children:
(1) George, son by the first marriage, married Anne Shelton as a minor
by 1518 but had no (surviving) children. Admitted to the bar, 1528.
Vis Essex says he died in 1558, but his father's will indicates he was
still living in 1562. I cannot locate any obvious probate record for
George.
(2) Mary, daughter by the third marriage; apparently unmarried in
1562; married Thomas Wilford and left issue
(3) Christian, daughter by the third marriage; apparently unmarried in
1562; married Sir John Tufton; mother of the 1st Earl of Thanet (born
1578)
(4) Katherine, daughter by the third marriage; married Sir William
Roper of Eltham and died 1616; left issue.
Additionally, we have Katherine, wife successively of (i) Richard
Townshend of Raynham and (ii) Peter Sainthill. She was living and
apparently unmarried in 1535, when it seems she was called "my sister
Katherine Shelton" in the will of Robert Shelton of London; her son
Roger Townshend was born circa 1544 (which gives us a marriage range
for her Townshend marriage). Townshend died in 1551, and sometime
thereafter she married Peter Sainthill as his *first wife*.
Sainthill's son and heir, by his *second* marriage was born in 1561,
so Katherine must have been dead by then - ie she was dead by the time
that her step-father Sir Humphrey Brown wrote his will. Brown
evidently had provided for her, probably at the time of her marriage
to Townshend, which is not surprising if we conclude that she was the
only daughter of his second wife, Elizabeth, who was herself an
heiress (of her brother William Rawlyns).
It looks like we have a few ODNB corrections, and one for Burke's, and
(sorry, Leo) something for Genealogics too.
Cheers (and thanks again to Adrian and Will Johnson for their help)
Michael Andrews-Reading
mj...@btinternet.com
> Okay, I now see From what I wrote earlier and MA-R post (crossed in e-space)
> it is the Richard Townsend marriage to Katherine Browne which is wrong.
> Brampton m Catherine, dau and coheir of Sir Humphrey Brown, Knt. of Ridley
> Hall in Terling, Essex, one of the Justices of the Court of Common Pleas, and
> d. 1544 (will proved 12 Feb. 1544), having by her (who m. 2ndly, Sir William
> Roper)"
I have been trying to confirm the actual death-date of Richard
Townshend. given above as 1544 and elsewhere as 1551.
In searching, I came across this PROCAT document which confirms
Katherine Shelton's marriages to Townshend and then Peter Sainthill:
C 1/1270/25-26
Peter SENTHIELL and Katherine his wife, late the wife of Richard
Townshend, esquire, v. Jerome SHELTON of London, brother of the said
Katherine: Failure to save the said Katherine harmless against a
former lessee of the manor of Akenham and the advowsons of the
churches of Akenham, Claydon, and Hemingstone, etc, Suffolk (dated
1544-1551)
Nice!
There are two PCC probate references that seem to relate to Richard
but are rather late in date:
Sentence of Richard Townesend of Brampton, Norfolk: 6 November 1554
Will of Richard Townsende or Townesende of Brampton, Norfolk: 12
February 1555
It would therefore seem that Richard Townshend was dead by 1551 at the
latest, and that by the same year his widow (nee Katherine Shelton)
had remarried to Peter Sainthill.
MA-R
mj...@btinternet.com
> it is the Richard Townsend marriage to Katherine Browne which is wrong.
> This is also wrong in Burke's (1938 ed p 2431 Townsend) "Richard [Townsend] of
> Brampton m Catherine, dau and coheir of Sir Humphrey Brown, Knt. of Ridley
> Hall in Terling, Essex, one of the Justices of the Court of Common Pleas, and
> d. 1544 (will proved 12 Feb. 1544), having by her (who m. 2ndly, Sir William
> Roper)"
Here's a list of sources which appear to incorrectly conflate the step-
sisters Katherine Sainthill/Townshend nee Shelton and Katherine Roper
nee Brown:
1. ODNB, sub Roger Townshend, which states his mother was Katherine,
daughter of Humphrey Brown
2. Burke's Peerage, sub Townshend (courtesy of Adrian)
3. Visitation of Essex, 1612, p 166, sub Brown
4. Visitations of Norfolk, p 291, sub Townshend
5. Visitation of Devon, 1564, p 187, sub Sainthill
6. Visitation of Devon, 1620, p 249, sub Sainthill
7. Collins's Peerage, 1812, sub Townshend
John H
taking a portion below from Humfrey Browne's will you posted,
namely
"Also where I / did entayle the mannor of Mannden otherwise called
Battellshalle in the saide countie of / essex "
Do you, or anyone else on list, know how the Browne family got hold of the
Manor of Manuden or Battels Hall.
I am doing the Battell/Battaille/Battely family and they appear to have
held that manor,
apparently being a grant of 1086 by William I to Humphrey Bataille, of which
I would like
confirmation etc.
I have Shelton surname in database but not a Robert .
Richard Shelton around theperiod of time, of which you are discussing with
Humphrey Browne's will.
Are you able to assist in this matter at all
regards
John H
<ADRIANCH...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.2502.1201175...@rootsweb.com...
ADRIANCH...@aol.com
John...@hotmail.com writes:
>>>>
Adrian,
taking a portion below from Humfrey Browne's will you posted,
namely
"Also where I / did entayle the mannor of Mannden otherwise called
Battellshalle in the saide countie of / essex "
Do you, or anyone else on list, know how the Browne family got hold of the
Manor of Manuden or Battels Hall.
I am doing the Battell/Battaille/Battely family and they appear to have
held that manor,
apparently being a grant of 1086 by William I to Humphrey Bataille, of which
I would like
confirmation etc.
I have Shelton surname in database but not a Robert .
Richard Shelton around theperiod of time, of which you are discussing with
Humphrey Browne's will.
Are you able to assist in this matter at all
regards
John H
>>>>>
>From the British History on Line there is the following grant
Essex.D. 800. Grant by Thomas Bassyngbourne of Bishops Hatfield co.
Hertford, esquire, to Thomas Kebeel, serjeant-at-law, John Cornewaleys, esquire, John
Broun, 'gentilman,' Reginald Pegge, and Robert Ellyngton, of the manor of
Manuden Hall, and of a tenement called 'Wodehall' in Ogeley, and of all his
lands and tenements &c. in Manuden, Ogeley, and Stansted; with letter of
attorney authorising Roger Useley and Thomas Pycher to deliver seisin. 28 May, 6
Henry VII. Signed.
From: 'Deeds: D.701 - D.800', A Descriptive Catalogue of Ancient Deeds:
Volume 3 (1900), pp. 488-499. URL:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=64362&strquery=Manuden. Date accessed: 25 January 2008.
I'm not sure how this John Broun fits with the Brownes of this thread, in
fact the mention of Thomas Kebeel (Kebyll) suggests this John Broun is the son
of the William Browne who was mayor of London in 1513 and whose second
marriage was to Alice dau of Henry Kebyll and sister of a Thomas Kebyll. Perhaps
the two families were connected.
I would think that the Victorian County History of Essex would have more on
Manuden Hall. British History on line has some of these volumes, but I
can't see Manuden.
Regards
Adrian
John H
Found a little bit more about Bataill family re Hatfield Broadoak re
Barrington & Leventhorpe Families.
going to the site you listed.
regards
John H
<ADRIANCH...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.2566.1201271...@rootsweb.com...