Major Thomas Savage of Charlestown, Massachusetts Bay Colony

[ache...@gmail.com]

A fresh investigation of his parentage, and possible Royal descents via
The Savage’s of Rock Savage

I apologize if there is already a thread started on Maj. Thomas Savage, but to my surprise a cursory search did not reveal one? His possible ancestry through Edward III, particularly through Anne of York, sister of Edward IV and Richard III would seemingly make him a terrific candidate for genealogical research. A collective approach in a talented group of researchers might well bear some fruit, so I thought I’d launch a dialogue.
Oil portrait on canvas of Maj. Thomas Savage of Charlestown- Museum of Fine Arts, Boston; ca. 1679

https://collections.mfa.org/objects/34535?image=1

The coat of arms depicted in the upper right portion of the painting belongs to the family Savage of Rock Savage, Clifton, Cheshire, England. It’s usage commenced with Sir John Savage of Clifton, Cheshire, England who first built the manor at Rock Savage (c. 1565-7 aka Rocksavage), and created new arms for his personal use. His family had previously been of the nearby manor of Clifton, which eventually fell into disuse and disrepair. Sir John was born c. 1524 and died 5 Dec 1597. His first wife and mother of all of his children was Elizabeth Manners (d. 6 Aug 1570). She was the daughter of Sir Thomas Manners, Knight of the Garter and 1st Earl of Rutland, and his wife Eleanor Paston. Sir John’s Savage’s mother was Elizabeth Somerset, daughter of Charles Somerset, 1st Earl of Worcester. As such, both John and Elizabeth have royal descents from King Edward III of England. Sir John’s lineage runs through the Somerset’s from John of Gaunt (though he probably not actually a Plantagenet), while Elizabeth’s lineage runs through Anne of York (her great-grandmother), sister to Edward IV and Richard III (the last of the Plantagenet kings).

This same coat of arms in the painting is also chiseled onto Thomas’s gravestone at King’s Chapel Burying Ground in Boston, Massachusetts.

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/17215998/thomas-savage

It is a rare fortune to have both an image and a coat of arms so readily attributable to an early immigrant ancestor. For Maj. Thomas to have knowingly displayed this coat in error so prominently might have been a punishable offense in that period, albeit an offense that was rarely acted upon. Clearly he believed he had the right to display the Savage of Rock Savage arms, and did so proudly. The length of usage of that particular coat of arms was perhaps 135 years, to the time of the portraits creation, though only about 65 to the year of his birth.

A genealogical work regarding the family of Major Thomas Savage entitled “Major Thomas Savage of Boston and his descendants” by Lawrence Park, contains a great deal of useful information, particularly in tracing the descendants of he and his two wives- (1) Faith Hutchinson and (2) Mary Symmes

https://archive.org/details/majorthomassavag00park/page/n17/mode/2up?q=Arthur

Faith Hutchinson is the daughter of William Hutchinson, gent. and Anne Marbury, whose mother Bridget Dryden is known to have several Edward I royal descents.

The first page also contains a few nuggets of useful information attributed to two granddaughters that were interviewed by a great grandson about the family in the mid to late 1700’s. It also seemingly contains some rather distracting information that he attempted to compile together. At its core, prior to the author’s extrapolations, the most useful information regarding Thomas’s ancestry in the work may be summed up as: 1) Maj. Savage considered himself a descendant of the Savages of Rock Savage. 2) Thomas Savage was at the time of his immigration in April of 1635 a tailor from London, aged 27 (bn. c. 1608). 3) Two of his granddaughters recalled that they had a great-uncle named Arthur Savage (Thomas’s brother), and another great-uncle whose name they could not recall. 4) The will of Maj. Savage indicated he had a cousin Leonard Savage in Barbados to whom he left 10 pounds, and that he also had an unnamed sister.

The author of the work (and his contributor’s) extrapolates in attempt to identify Thomas’s brother Arthur Savage, and wanders through some other information that additional descendants had attempted to compile over the years regarding possible paternity. They do usefully note that Maj. Thomas and his second wife Mary Symmes had a son whom they named Arthur, although he evidently died young. The name Arthur, according to the descendant information gathered in the work, does seemingly echo on in later generations of the Savage family of New England thereafter.

We cannot fault Mr. Park, the researcher of Thomas Savage’s family or his fellow genealogy enthusiasts for any erroneous content, as their intentions appear noble, and his efforts were enough to fill a volume. Undoubtedly access to available British sources was limited, and to his credit he did not attempt to derive a descent from the Savages of Rock Savage that had no realistic foundation.

Questions remain. Exactly how might Maj. Thomas Savage descend from the earliest Savage’s of Rock Savage? Can a family unit of the right timeframe be identified that contains a son Arthur, a son Thomas, another son, a daughter, and also happens to descend from the Savage’s of Rocksavage?

I am of the opinion that the most helpful pieces of information we might elect to rely upon seem to be that Thomas had a brother named Arthur, and that we have a pretty solid timeframe for Major Thomas’s birth. Arthur is a less common name and genealogically speaking that can be helpful. A name like “John” or “Thomas” of course is often a nightmare. He also had a cousin Leonard, another less than common name. Many of us, like the 2 granddaughters mentioned, in our own near family units, can probably similarly name a few great-uncles or aunts with whom we became familiar perhaps personally, but more likely through family stories told by our elders. That at least has a ring of ‘truth’ to it.

On 16 March 1674 a Leonard Savage signed as a witness to a will being proved on the island of Barbados in the Caribbean. Sometimes in genealogical research we begin to forget that these were real people. Leonard’s a relatively rare name. We can infer that Thomas’s cousin did in fact live in Barbados, and was indeed was still living only a few years before Thomas’s death. Can a family with an Arthur, a Thomas, and a cousin Leonard be identified in England?

https://www.google.com/search?q=1674+Leonard+Savage+Barbados&sxsrf=ALeKk00APWHoc8ijv4zhV2IHQpjKz5ohVg:1610835182492&source=lnms&tbm=bks&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwic6N_WvKHuAhXbW80KHdXHCLkQ_AUoAXoECAgQCw&biw=1474&bih=839

The preceding book might have more clues to Leonard’s origins if anyone has access to it.

Typically early American immigrants from noble families were from cadet branches (lines derived from younger sons). This is understandable since the elder lines were set up with inheritances and married heiresses which often curtailed any need to go elsewhere to meet with relative good fortune. As such we might expect that Thomas was a younger son, trying to improve his lot in life by settling in the New World. He was also a Puritan non-conformist.

In most genealogical research we work backwards in time from the known, toward the unknown. The Savage of Rocksavage arms in the portrait perhaps permits us to take another approach in this case; moving from a pair of apparently known ancestors in the past and proceeding forward in time, gathering a picture of their progeny. The timeframe from the birth of the first Sir John Savage and his wife to the approximate year of Thomas’s birth is less than 100 years (c. 1525 to c. 1608). It is unlikely that there a great number of surviving male lines to collect information on in that short period.

The earliest Savage’s of Rock Savage-

Sir John Savage, 1st of Rock Savage and Elizabeth Manners had a sizeable family, with at least 6 sons and 5 daughters. As we are concerned with discerning any potential paternal lines of descent to Thomas Savage of Charlestown, Massachusetts, I will confine most of my observations to cover the lines for surviving male descendants.

The first 6 sons as far as I am able to discern were:

1) John Savage (b. c. 1548 – d. young)
2) Sir John Savage (b. c. 1554 – d. 7 Jul 1615), 1st Baronet of Rock Savage (created 1611); m. c. 1576 Mary Allington; he also had an unnamed mistress.
3) Thomas Savage (b. c. 1556 – d. young)
4) Edward Savage, Esq. (b. c. 1560 – d. bef. 29 Nov 1622) of Beaurepaire; m. c. 1580 Polyxena le Grice/Griz/Gris
5) Francis Savage (b. c. 1562 – d. young)
6) (possibly?) Edmund Savage (b.? - d. bef. 30 August 1615)

From a familial standpoint, it is sad that this couple evidently lost 3 or more sons at a young age. From a genealogical perspective however, it does make the work a bit easier when seeking a single line down out to a particular descendant, especially when that tree does not split into too many branches at the outset.

After the death of Elizabeth Manners, Sir John remarried Eleanor Cotgrave, a widow, and through her his family came by many properties including the manor of Beaurepaire in Hampshire which had belonged in Eleanor’s deceased husband’s family (Sir Richard Peshull). John and Eleanor had no natural children together.

https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Family_of_Brocas_of_Beaurepaire_and/T9YKAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Edward+Savage+Esq.+Clifton&pg=PA211&printsec=frontcover

We may observe that Thomas Savages birth year is about 1608, dating from his passage aboard the ship “Planter” in 1835 to the Massachusetts Bay colony when he was 27. Also mentioned in Mr. Park’s publication is that he gave a deposition dated September 26, 1664, aged about 57 years, giving a birth year of about 1607. His presumed ancestor, Sir John Savage of Rock Savage, was born about 1524- a difference of roughly 84 years. Assuming say 25 to 30 years of separation between generations on average, suggests that Thomas could be as recent as a great-grandson of John and Elizabeth or at worst a 2nd great-grandson. A brother Arthur would also then likely be of the generation of a 1st great-grandson, and perhaps a cousin Leonard as well.

First let’s consider the Arthur Savage mentioned by Mr. Park as of the Prebend of Carlisle Cathedral. At his matriculation from Oxford on 16 March 1637/38 he was noted as age 16. Thereby he was born about 1622 and so if Thomas’s brother, he was certainly a younger one. This prebend Arthur’s father was named as John Savage, Esq. “of Wootton Hall in the County of Salop.” (Salop/Shropshire is the next county south of Cheshire, and therefore Rock Savage) Rev. Arthur Savage was Rector of Brougham in Westmorland for some years prior, and up to 1655. Petition was made for him to be Prebend at Carlisle in June of 1660. In 1663 he was of the rectory of Caldbeck in Cumberland. He died in 1700 and was laid to rest at Caldebeck.

https://archive.org/details/lifeofsirphilipm00burt/page/n13/mode/2up?q=arthur+savage

Thus far I am unable to locate a gentleman John Savage, Esq. of Wootton Hall, Shropshire that is clearly descended from the Savages of Rock Savage. Further, there are at least 2 men of the Savage surname (Thomas bp. 1542, William bp. 1544) baptized at Munslow, Shropshire in the 1540’s who might be in his paternity. It is perhaps unlikely that they are sons of Sir John of Rocksavage in Cheshire born about 1524. That does not completely eliminate John of Wootton as a possibility. If however, Maj. Thomas himself is a younger son (being an immigrant with no evident inheritance), and Rev. Arthur is 14 years younger, then these two men probably had an even older brother who received the family inheritance, making quite a span (15-16 years at minimum) between them all. Let’s then set him aside for now.

Perhaps unsurprisingly, the name “Arthur” Savage does indeed appear in association with the known descendants of the first Sir John Savage of Rock Savage (see Chart following). The Inquisition Post Mortem of Sir John Savage, 1st Baronet Rock Savage (B1 of the chart) mentions among his alternate heirs “after the death of Sir John, to said Thomas, in tail male, with contingent remainders to John, younger son of Sir John, Richard & William, his other sons, in tail male, Edward Savage esq., brother of Sir John in tail male, Sir Arthur Savage kt., in tail male, the male issue of Edmund Savage gent., deceased”. The son Thomas mentioned eventually was created Viscount and has a fairly well documented line. Since the Sir Arthur (C10) mentioned is one of Baronet John’s alternate heirs, it’s possible that Edmund, esq. (B3) was one of his brother’s (legitimate or otherwise), and Arthur (C10) therefore Baronet John’s nephew.

IPM for Sir John Savage, 1st Baronet- Pgs. 38-44 with Sir Arthur cited last paragraph on pg. 41

http://rslc.org.uk/api/file/Vol_091.pdf

An outline Savage of Rock Savage Descendants Chart
(Survivors with issue or those otherwise relevant to discussion)
“*” indicates uncertain parentage

A1) Sir John Savage of Rock Savage (c. 1524-1597) & Elizabeth Manners
B1) Sir John Savage, 1st Baronet (1554-30 Aug 1615) & Mary Allington (also had a mistress)
C1) Sir Thomas Savage, 1st Viscount (c. 1579-20 Nov 1635) & Elizabeth D’Arcy
D1) Sir John Savage, 2nd Earl Rivers (b. 1603- ) & Katherine Parker
D2) Sir Thomas Savage & Bridget Whitmore
C2) John Savage (c. 1582-bef. 13 Jul 1609) & Alice Oabery (Aubrey)
C3) Richard Savage (c. 1590-aft. 1600)
C4) William Savage (c. 1592-aft. 1600)
C5) John Savage of Barrow (1590- bef. 30 Dec 1630) (Father’s bastard by mistress)
B2) Edward Savage, Esq. of Beaurepaire (1560-1622) & Polyxena le Grice
C6) Roger Savage, Esq. of Beaurepaire (1583- ?)
C7) Sir John Savage of Beaurepaire (1585-aft. 1619) & Margaret Wilkes
D3) Arthur Savage, Esq. of Chester (c. 1616-25 Apr 1643) & Miss Fitz-Andrew?
C8) Sir Edward Savage, Privy Councilor (c. 1587-aft. 9 Apr 1672) & Margaret Langton
D4) *Thomas Savage (bef. 25 Apr 1608-bef. 26 Jan 1612)
D5) *Thomas Savage (bef. 26 Jan 1612- )
C9) Richard Savage (c. 1592-aft. 1621)
B3) *Edmund Savage, Gent. (?- bef. 30 Aug 1615)
C10) Sir Arthur Savage (likely of age in 1615)

Subject for possible placement:
Maj. Thomas Savage (b. c. 1607/8 perhaps Cheshire or Hampshire, England; d. 15 Feb 1682 Boston, Mass. Bay Col.)

Oxford Univ. Alumni yields some useful approximate birth dates.

https://www.ancestry.com/imageviewer/collections/8942/images/RDUK1500_0002-0461?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=48fde53b326e63751bc6b330daa5744f&usePUB=true&_phsrc=xGX544&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=200937

The Baronet’s illegitimate son John (C5), last paragraph-

https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_History_of_the_County_Palatine_and_C/7kEjAQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=John+Savage+Barrow+Chester&pg=PA185&printsec=frontcover

A second Arthur Savage, Esq. (D3) is demonstrably a direct descendant of the Savages of Rock Savage. He descends from the cadet Beaurepaire lineage, being the grandson of Sir John (A1) & Elizabeth Manners’ 2nd son, Edward Savage, Esq. (B2).

Esquire Arthur (D3) was evidently interred at St. Bridget’s, Chester, Cheshire, and was a 1st great-grandson of the builder of nearby Rock Savage. His parents were Sir John Savage (C7) of Beaurepaire & Bradley and Margaret Wilkes. Margaret Wilkes was the daughter and sole heiress of Sir Thomas Wilkes of Surrey (an influential European diplomat) and Margaret Smith. As such the younger Margaret would have had good cause to name a 2nd son “Thomas” for her father, being an only child named for her mother herself. The baptismal records of St. Brigit’s Church in Chester appear to have a very inconvenient gap in the dates for entries held therein- missing the year’s most relevant to Maj. Thomas Savage of Charlestown’s baptism (1607/1608) among others. Margaret is however, unlikely to be Major Thomas’s mother, as her own date of birth was about January or early February 1596. Sir John of Beaurepaire could have had a previous marriage, in which case Maj. Thomas would perhaps have been the heir of his father (and not Arthur), unless of course he was illegitimate.

Arthur Savage, Esq. (D3) was apparently buried at St. Bridget’s Church, Chester in Cheshire. His paternal lineage was clearly delineated back to Sir John Savage, 1st of Rock Savage at the church.

Some noteworthy extracts from the Journal of the Chester and North Wales Archaeological & Historic Society (1918) , entries relating to some of the armorial bearings found there:

“19. The exact situation of the following arms and inscription is not stated:-
Arms. (1) [Argent], six lioncels rampant, three, two and one, [sable], a crescent [ . . . ] for difference- Savage. (2) Gules, a chevron between three [?escallops] argent, a chief chequy or and azure--?Fitz-Andrew. (3) Gules, a chevron between three storks argent- Walkinton. (4) Argent, a pale fusilly sable- Danyers. (5) Argent, a cross formee, the ends fleury sable- Swinnerton. (6) Or, on a fess azure three garbs of the field- Vernon. (7) Sable, a fess humettee argent- Bostock. (8) Paly of six or and gules, on a chief argent three torteaux- . . . “

"Arthur sone & heire of Sr Jo Sauage Kt sone & heire of Edw Sauage Esqr 2d sone of Sr Jo Sauage of Rock Sauage Kt died 25 of Apr 1643."

Presumably these arms exist, or once existed on a church brass commemorating Arthur’s life or contributions to the church. His family may have been patrons of St. Bridget’s, or perhaps he was given a place of honor there for martial services he performed on behalf of the city of Chester, as suggested by the author of the citation.

The crescent mentioned in the arms for Savage preceding denotes a mark of cadency, for descent from a second son. Edward Savage, Esq. (B2) was the second surviving son of his parents Sir John Savage of Rock Savage and Elizabeth Manners. Arthur then was then the surviving legitimate primogeniture descendant of esquire Edward (B2). All of the other arms- Walkington, Danyers, Swinnerton, Vernon, & Bostock are readily understood to be families that intermarried with Arthur's Savage ancestors. Perhaps the Fitz-Andrew arms impaled are from Arthur's wife, suggesting that he married, though evidently died young. The final unidentified arms appear to be a variant of Wilkes of Lofts Hall, Essex or perhaps even Layton-Beame, Buckinghamshire (latter has Paly of 8), and are clearly those of his mother.

It continues:
“Mr. Arthur Savage, Esq.,” was buried on the 27th of April at St. Bridget’s, and there is an inclination to connect his presence in the city at this time with the great preparations then being made for its defense. Arthur Savage was descended from a younger branch of this well known family. His great-grandfather, Sir John Savage settled the very large estates in Hampshire and elsewhere (of which he had become possessed through his second wife), on Edward Savage, esquire, his second son, by his first wife. Edward married Polyxena, daughter of William le Griz of London (and probably Norfolk), gentleman, niece to his stepmother, and was ancestor of the Beaurepaire branch. His son, Sir John Savage, of Beaurepaire, co. Hants, knight, married Margaret, daughter of Thomas Weekes (Vere, or Wilkes), clark of … and was living in 1619. They were the parents of Arthur”

See pgs. 21-22 of the second sequence, about 80% of the way down the scroll bar.

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Journal_of_the_Architectural_Archaeologi/ZW4wAQAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Edward+Savage+Esq+Hampshire&pg=RA2-PA22&printsec=frontcover

The citation preceding also suggests that as “sone & heir”, Arthur was the first born or eldest surviving legitimate son of his parents. It also clearly states his direct paternal line of descent from the 1st Sir John of Rock Savage.

The description of these 8 particular coats of arms gives evidence that even as early as Arthur’s death in 1643, these were surnames the Savage’s held to be intermarried with their ancestors, and that they were not then a later period fabrication. Arthur’s direct paternal descent contains all of these surnames, the arms selected being derived from intermarried heiresses with no surviving brother (as then impaling was allowed). Only the second “Fitz-Andrew” following immediately after his own surname’s arms, is not clearly represented in his patrilineal ancestry. Fitz-Andrew was then perhaps his wife’s surname, and the coat’s use suggests that she too was an heiress.

Esquire Arthur’s apparent descent-

Robert Savage & Amicia Walkington
Sir John Savage & Margaret Danyers
Sir John Savage K.G. & Maud de Swinnerton
Sir John Savage & Eleanor Brereton
Sir John Savage & Katherine Stanley
Sir John Savage & Dorothy Vernon
Sir John Savage & Ann Bostock
Sir John Savage & Elizabeth Somerset
Sir John Savage & Elizabeth Manners (of Rock Savage, newly matric. arms)
Edward Savage, Esq. (2nd son) & Polyxena le Grice
Sir John Savage & Margaret Wilkes
Arthur Savage, Esq. & Miss Fitz-Andrew

The Savage coat of arms described for Arthur Savage, Esq. at St. Bridget’s appear to be identical to those depicted for Maj. Thomas Savage in both his portrait and on his burial stone, with the possible exception of a missing mark of cadency (the crescent) which is certainly found on that of Arthur’s coat, but not at all obvious on Major Thomas’s.

Upon consideration of the existence of at least one Rock Savage descendant that was named Arthur (D3) who was a near contemporary with Maj. Thomas, and a second Arthur (C10) evidently of this same family grouping whose age is as yet undetermined, it would seem that the early family story passed down through the Major Thomas’s descendants may in fact have a basis in truth. Though Arthur interred or commemorated at St. Bridget’s in Chester might not be Maj. Thomas’s ½ brother, it is entirely possible that another 1st cousin or at furthest a 2nd cousin within this relatively small Rock Savage grouping also bore that name, particularly so since the Sir Arthur, son of Edmund mentioned in Sir John the Baronet’s will could easily have also named a son for himself. Such a son would perhaps fall into about this same 3rd generation from the 1st of Rock Savage. If this had been the case however and Maj. Thomas was the son of Sir Arthur of the IPM, then the family stories passed down would more likely have focused on the fact that Maj. Thomas’s father had been named Arthur, and not that his brother had. Finding an approximate birth year for Sir Arthur of the IPM would be helpful in affirming or eliminating him as a fraternal candidate.

Arthur Savage, Esq. of Chester’s father was named Sir John, and coincidentally or not, Maj. Thomas did eventually baptize a son by his 2nd wife Mary Symmes with that name, although he died an infant. Maj. Thomas of Charlestown had strong Puritan connections. His mother-in-law Anne (Marbury) Hutchinson was a rebellious Puritan divine, who caused quite a religious foment in the early Massachusetts colony. Thomas sided with her at first, but may have regretted his attempts at intervention since it did not appear to have improved his standing with the colonial authorities.

Some of Thomas’s children by first wife Faith Hutchinson seem to have a decidedly biblical and religious influence in their name selection- Habijah, Thomas, Hannah, Ephraim, Mary, Perez, and Dionisia. The name selections with his second wife Mary were apparently less so- Sarah, Richard, Samuel, John, Benjamin, Arthur and Elizabeth. Did the Major eventually interject the first name of his own father among these names? Perhaps he waxed nostalgic in his later years, as the belated use of Arthur might seem to suggest. There was a great deal of religious division during the era following the Reformation. One can easily imagine a situation where Thomas’s newfound Puritanical beliefs may have negatively impacted family relationships. After all, continental wars were being fought over it. He spent the first 27 years of his life in England. In later life it’s possible he yearned for some of the familiarity of his youth, in this strange new land that they were creating.

Another Sir Arthur Savage was an early soldier and Planter in Ireland. His branch stems off 2 generations prior to the 1st Savage of Rock Savage. Clearly the family enjoyed the use of that name. They were related to the Royal family, and the Arthurian tales were experiencing something of a Tudor inspired Renaissance. Undoubtedly the birth of Arthur Tudor, Prince of Wales played a role. How many other Arthur Savage’s might there have been? In 1598 Sir John, 1st Baronet (B1) and his brother Edward Esq. (B2) made a trip to Ireland regarding the death of their brother-in-law Sir Henry Bagley who was the husband of their sister Elenore. It’s possible some of their offspring accompanied them and even settled there.

The two Thomas Savages (D4,D5) in the preceding rough chart were baptized to an Edward Savage at All Saints, Runcorn, Cheshire, England. Runcorn was a property long held by the Rock Savage’s, however no Mr., Gent., Sir, Esq. was noted in the web search regarding their father Edward, so one, both, or neither of them may belong to Sir Edward of the Privy Council. I have found however that often transcribers of electronic databases occasionally miss gentrification, Jr., etc. marks in cataloging the register entries. Viewing the original could be instructive. The first Thomas’s baptism (D4) on the 25 April, 1608 at Runcorn, Cheshire is the best date match of any baptism for Maj. Thomas that I’ve located to date, anywhere. If the second Thomas (D5) is not a son of the same Edward, then the 1608 might represent Maj. Thomas of Massachusetts.

The cadet Beaurepaire branch of Savages had lands in Hampshire and likely elsewhere. It is often difficult to determine how many and which parish registers are actually covered in a web search. Just what percentage of existing registers are scanned and therefore covered by such searches? One day another could be uploaded that brings an “Aha!” moment. I hope I’m around to see it.

Definitive evidence of Major Thomas Savage’s paternal descent is certainly lacking at the present moment. I do believe however, that discovery of multiple Arthur Savage’s within and associated with the Rock Savage descendants strengthens the case that he probably did indeed have a brother, or half brother Arthur, and he was in fact a descendant of the earliest Sir John Savage of Rock Savage, and Elizabeth Manners his wife, and if not was a close relation.

I have hope for the future. The discovery and placement of a Leonard Savage within this familial grouping could further define the Major’s relationship to these individuals, as could a baptismal document, an inquisition post mortem, or a will for an Arthur. Clues may reside in estate papers, or a bible in a repository, a dusty attic, or a chest somewhere. Hopefully with perseverance, evidence will be found and the truth will one day be known.

Thanks for your interest, and stay well.
Richard


Some more “Light reading” for anyone curious.

https://suffolkrecordssociety.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Savage-Fortune-An-Aristocratic-Family-in-the-Early-Seventeenth-Century.pdf

The Early Savages of Ards

https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Ancient_and_Noble_Family_of_the_Sava/MU5RKM6ekl4C?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=John+Savage+Elizabeth+Somerset&pg=PA32&printsec=frontcover

Elizabeth Manners royal line from which the Savages of Rocksavage have some of their Plantagenet descent

https://churchmonumentssociety.org/monument-of-the-month/thomas-manners-1st-earl-of-rutland-12th-baron-de-ros-of-helmsley-c-1492-1543

Elizabeth Manners burial at Macclesfield

https://archive.org/details/recordsocietyfor05reco/page/32/mode/2up?q=savage

Thomas Savage in the Great Migration

https://www.americanancestors.org/databases/great-migration-immigrants-to-new-england-1634-1635-volume-vi-r-s/image?volumeId=12124&pageName=177&rId=23901257

A Sir Edmund Savage of Macclesfield, Cheshire. From a line branching laterally off earlier, and not of Rocksavage, but living in the same part of Cheshire. I believe he and a Sir Edward were at Blore Heath, Northumberland.

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Lancashire_and_Cheshire_Wills_and_invent/KAQ-AAAAcAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Edmund+Savage+Esq+Cheshire&pg=PA92&printsec=frontcover

[taf]

Some random thoughts:

On Saturday, January 16, 2021 at 2:56:59 PM UTC-8, ache...@gmail.com wrote:

> Sir John’s lineage runs through the Somerset’s from John of Gaunt (though he probably
> not actually a Plantagenet),

How so? (or do you simply mean that calling the family Plantagenets is anachronistic?)

> For Maj. Thomas to have knowingly displayed this coat in error so prominently

Error was rarely involved. The real choices are inheritance or intentional appropriation.

> might have been a punishable offense in that period, albeit an offense that was rarely
> acted upon.

I don't recall a single example of a person in New England being prosecuted for using a coat of arms that was not his.

> Clearly he believed he had the right to display the Savage of Rock Savage arms,

Not clear. Clearly he chose to display the arms, but the whole reason the heraldic visitations were carried out is that people were using arms to which they had no legitimate claim.

> 2) Thomas Savage was at the time of his immigration in April of 1635 a tailor from London,
> aged 27 (bn. c. 1608).

A member of the gentry claiming a coat of arms would not have been just a run of the mill London tailor. He would, in all likelihood, have been a member of one of the London livery companies. The Merchant Tailors records would be the place to start, looking for a record of his apprenticeship that would have given details on his origin (father and native place).

> A1) Sir John Savage of Rock Savage (c. 1524-1597) & Elizabeth Manners
> B1) Sir John Savage, 1st Baronet (1554-30 Aug 1615) & Mary Allington (also had a mistress)
> C1) Sir Thomas Savage, 1st Viscount (c. 1579-20 Nov 1635) & Elizabeth D’Arcy

> C2) John Savage (c. 1582-bef. 13 Jul 1609) & Alice Oabery (Aubrey)
> C3) Richard Savage (c. 1590-aft. 1600)
> C4) William Savage (c. 1592-aft. 1600)
> C5) John Savage of Barrow (1590- bef. 30 Dec 1630) (Father’s bastard by mistress)

The published 1533/1566/1580/1591 Visitation of Cheshire includes a pedigree from a 1580 visitation that shows four children: John, Thomas, and Elizabeth (in that order) born to Mary Allington, plus an illegitimate son John, aged 4 in 1580. Unfortunately, the pedigree has some later additions, but comparing your date for Thomas and the absence of any of the younger sons suggests to me that these were the children living in 1580. Either there has been an error that reversed the order of the two eldest sons, or there was an additional John, older than Thomas, who died in infancy, and the name was then recycled for the next younger son after Thomas, born after 1580. Anyhow, bastard son John was much older than you have him - he was born ca. 1576 (unless there were also two bastards named John).

taf

[JBrand]

On Saturday, January 16, 2021 at 5:56:59 PM UTC-5, ache...@gmail.com wrote:
> A fresh investigation of his parentage, and p

> Sir(b. c. 1562 – d. young)
> 6) (possibly?) E

I think I would focus in on the statement by Park in _NEHGR_ mentioning an Arthur Savage, prebendary of Carlisle, as the possible brother of Thomas of New England (your paragraph below alludes to this statement by Mr. Park):

First let’s consider the Arthur Savage mentioned by Mr. Park as of the Prebend of Carlisle Cathedral. At his matriculation from Oxford on 16 March 1637/38 he was noted as age 16. Thereby he was born about 1622 and so if Thomas’s brother, he was certainly a younger one. This prebend Arthur’s father was named as John Savage, Esq. “of Wootton Hall in the County of Salop.” (Salop/Shropshire is the next county south of Cheshire, and therefore Rock Savage) Rev. Arthur Savage was Rector of Brougham in Westmorland for some years prior, and up to 1655. Petition was made for him to be Prebend at Carlisle in June of 1660. In 1663 he was of the rectory of Caldbeck in Cumberland. He died in 1700 and was laid to rest at Caldebeck.

https://archive.org/details/lifeofsirphilipm00burt/page/n13/mode/2up?q=arthur+savage

The manor of Wootton or Wooton with which these Savages were associated may have been in Hampshire, rather than Salop. There was a massive dispute over some Hampshire property between a Sir John Savage and Thomas Taylor of Bradley, Hampshire, ancestor of the wife of Robert Tufton _alias_ Mason of New Hampshire (also your ancestor, I believe). [How far back was the intermarriage of the Savage and Mason descendants in New England?]

James S. Hart, _Justice Upon Petition: The House of Lords and the Reformation of Justice, 1621-1675_, p. 51, notes: "A similar conflict between Sir John Savage and Thomas Taylor, over title and possession of the manor of Wooton in Hampshire, was brought to the house [of Lords?] in 1624 and again in 1626 and was heard extensively by the Committee for Petitions."

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Justice_Upon_Petition/AhAHEAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22john+savage%22+wooton&pg=PA51&printsec=frontcover

See also:
https://www.google.com/books/edition/A_Perfect_Booke/1SApAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22john+savage%22+%22thomas+taylor%22+hampshire&pg=PA50&printsec=frontcover

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Journals_of_the_House_of_Lords/bCVDAAAAcAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22john+savage%22+%22thomas+taylor%22+wooten&pg=PA422&printsec=frontcover

The last source does state Wooton or Wootton was in Salop, so that point should be investigated and cleared up-- was Wootton in Hampshire or Shropshire?.

From working on the Taylor/ Tufton line I clearly remember that Thomas Taylor of Bradley, Hampshire, had some dispute with a John Savage or Sir John Savage, who was in fact descended from the Rock Savage line.

Mr. Park, in NEHGR, states that the two elderly Savage ladies in New England recalled a great-uncle Arthur who was Dean of Carlisle, while Park himself could only find a Prebendary of Carlisle by that name (whose Oxford matric. record called him son of John Savage, Esq. of "Wootton Hall in Salop.")

https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_New_England_Historical_and_Genealogi/IsMMAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=carlisle%20wootton

On Arthur Savage of Carlisle, see:

https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Ejected_of_1662_in_Cumberland_Westmo/zM3nAAAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=arthur+savage+carlisle+wootton&pg=PA1247&printsec=frontcover

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Report_of_the_Deputy_Keeper_of_the_Publi/EggaCgY0ssEC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22thomas+taylor%22+%22john+savage%22+bradley&pg=PA400&printsec=frontcover

Don't know whether this helps or not ...

[taf]

On Saturday, January 16, 2021 at 5:55:44 PM UTC-8, JBrand wrote:
> First let’s consider the Arthur Savage mentioned by Mr. Park as of the
> Prebend of Carlisle Cathedral. At his matriculation from Oxford on 16
> March 1637/38 he was noted as age 16. Thereby he was born about
> 1622 and so if Thomas’s brother, he was certainly a younger one. This
> prebend Arthur’s father was named as John Savage, Esq. “of Wootton
> Hall in the County of Salop.”

Shropshire Parish Registers: Onibury

1621, Jan. 15. Arthure, s. of Sir John Savage, Kt. & Dame Margaret his wife bap.

Shropshire Archives
6000/8491
1619
Indenture dated 16 Jan. 1619 17 Jas.I. Between 1) Sir John Savage of Wootton Kt., 2) William Allen of Onibury yeoman. Lease of premises in Wootton & Stanton Lacy for 21 years at a rent.

https://www.shropshirearchives.org.uk/collections/getrecord/CCA_X6000_41_6_8491

taf

[JBrand]

Okay, so taf has shown that the property "Wootton" was in Shropshire/ Salop, and found the baptism of the Arthur Savage who entered Oxford in 1638.

I think this calls into question whether or not the Arthur Savage, prebendary of Carlisle, could be the same person as Arthur of Onibury/ Wootton, Salop, as the prebendary's will mentions, according to Park, his nephew James Savage, sadler of Lewes, Sussex. Meaning Sir John Savage, Kt., and Dame Margaret Savage would have to have a grandson who was a sadler in Lewes. That could be barely possible, I suppose, but the wills of Sir John and Dame Margaret should be investigated.

[ache...@gmail.com]

Some excellent finds and questions, but I'm forced to turn in for the night. Briefly-
Sir John Savage styled of Beaurepaire I believe ultimately lost the manor in court about 1618 as I recall. His wife is conveniently named Margaret (Wilkes?). I had not managed to trace where he relocated, so it is entirely possible he's the Shropshire man of Wooton. His birth year is drawn from the Oxford Alumni as 1585, so a marriage to Margaret Wilkes (bn. 1596) could easily have been his second, but that would indicate if Thomas (b. 1606/8) were by him, he was illegitimate or perhaps was cut off for some reason.

John of Gaunt's paternity (and that of all of the Somersets) has been put into doubt due to the find of Richard III's body and subsequent DNA testing. john suffered from rumors in his own lifetime that he was illegitimate. One wonders if he looked nothing like his father? That's all I meant by his being a questionable Plantagenet.

My Tufton and Savage descendants didn't intermarry until 1881. I thought it rather comical that I might ultimately descend from both. Seems like a Hatfield vs McCoy situation- Thomas Taylor and 16 kids holding out against the authorities.

Sir John the Baronet did have a prior son John (b.c. 1577) who died after Thomas was born. Hence why a very long line of Sir John's finally ended with a Sir Thomas, Viscount (he did rather well for the family it seems). As I mentioned, I was only inserting those who could have possible descendants to streamline things a bit and get a conversation started.

Thank you for the collaboration gentlemen, and I'll scrutinize these more carefully in the morning.
Richard

[taf]

On Saturday, January 16, 2021 at 8:22:18 PM UTC-8, ache...@gmail.com wrote:

> John of Gaunt's paternity (and that of all of the Somersets) has been put into
> doubt due to the find of Richard III's body and subsequent DNA testing. john
> suffered from rumors in his own lifetime that he was illegitimate. One wonders
> if he looked nothing like his father? That's all I meant by his being a questionable
> Plantagenet.

Nope, not buying it. The DNA evidence only shows that there is at least one false-paternity event somewhere from the Somersets up the pedigree and back down to Richard III. We have also seen people here argue based on the same type of evidence that Richard of York was certainly not really son of his supposed father (or maybe that Richard of Cambridge was not his father's son - I don't remember which). There is no 'probably' about either of these arguments; both could be true or neither. With 17 (or whatever) generational links between the Richard and the Somerset common ancestor, the probabilities vastly favor it being somewhere other than whichever generation one picks for the cuckolding, particularly when taking into account our access to court gossip means we have all of the rumors and 'fake news' that circulated about the royals while similar suspicions or slanders about the Somerset line have not been preserved.

taf

[Peter Stewart]

This is a sound point - another aspect of it is that the wife of a
Somerset collateral relative of the Plantagenets would not have been
subjected to prurient interest anywhere near as fevered as the wife of a
York legitimist heir of the dynasty in order to give rise to slander in
the first place.

Also the late-15th century mistress of a Somerset from whom the Beaufort
line descends would not have come under much scrutiny at all nine months
before giving birth.

Peter Stewart

[taf]

On Saturday, January 16, 2021 at 10:07:58 PM UTC-8, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:

> Also the late-15th century mistress of a Somerset from whom the Beaufort
> line descends would not have come under much scrutiny at all nine months
> before giving birth.

Yes, quite. Not that it couldn't have been anywhere in the chain, but I have always been of the opinion that the most likely places for the male line break are the two instances where the mother was already _known_ to have been game for bedding someone they 'weren't supposed to be with', i.e. the two Beaufort illegitimacies in the descent.

taf

[Mark Jennings]

This would seem to be the wrong Arthur - ie not the Carlisle prebendary. The Arthur Savage who matriculated at Oxford was certainly the son of Sir John of Wootton, but he was the contemporary of the Cumberland priest - he was a Cambridge MA, indexed in the Al.Cantab. as "Arthur SAVADGE". This shows he was admitted a sizar at Jesus College in December 1631, BA 1625/6, MA 1640, Rector of Brougham, Vicar of Caldbeck, Prebendary of Carlisle, had a son Richard (also a graduate and a priest, died 1674) and crucially was "of Sussex".

A 1631 entry would indicate a likely birth date of 1610-1615, consistent with having an elder brother (Thomas) born about 1607. There are numerous wills for Sussex Savages, including a father and son both named Leonard (PCC, 1649-1650) who had a son/brother named Thomas - clearly not the emigrant but indicative of family names. The Sussex Savages do not seem to be connected with the Rocksavage family, and were evidently of yeoman/trade rank.

The origins of Thomas the emigrant should therefore be looked for in the Sussex records.

[Mark Jennings]

On Sunday, January 17, 2021 at 11:52:22 AM UTC, Mark Jennings wrote:

> This would seem to be the wrong Arthur - ie not the Carlisle prebendary. The Arthur Savage who matriculated at Oxford was certainly the son of Sir John of Wootton, but he was the contemporary of the Cumberland priest - he was a Cambridge MA, indexed in the Al.Cantab. as "Arthur SAVADGE". This shows he was admitted a sizar at Jesus College in December 1631, BA 1625/6, MA 1640, Rector of Brougham, Vicar of Caldbeck, Prebendary of Carlisle, had a son Richard (also a graduate and a priest, died 1674) and crucially was "of Sussex".
>
> A 1631 entry would indicate a likely birth date of 1610-1615, consistent with having an elder brother (Thomas) born about 1607. There are numerous wills for Sussex Savages, including a father and son both named Leonard (PCC, 1649-1650) who had a son/brother named Thomas - clearly not the emigrant but indicative of family names. The Sussex Savages do not seem to be connected with the Rocksavage family, and were evidently of yeoman/trade rank.
>
> The origins of Thomas the emigrant should therefore be looked for in the Sussex records.

There is a probate grant for a William Savage of Lewes, tailor, dated 14 October 1620, with a regrant of 22 January 1633 in the Sussex wills at Lewes. Anyone can order a copy from the County Records Office - I suspect it might be instructive.

[Mark Jennings]

Correction: the will was dated 14 October 1620 and proved 22 January 1633/4:

Title: William SAVAGE of Lewes, tailor; registered will with grant of probate
Date: 22 Jan 1634
Repository: East Sussex Record Office
ESRO reference: PBT/1/1/23/84B
Date of will: 14 Oct 1620
Witnesses: Richard Kidder, John Savage, LEONARD SAVAGE

A copy can be ordered here (NB requires registering and signing in):

https://www.thekeep.info/collections/getrecord/GB179_PBT_1_1_23_84B

[ache...@gmail.com]

Not to get off point, but I have to confess to seriously divided attention at the moment which is forcing me to rush and make errors. One of my children, a medical worker, has only just been diagnosed with the dread disease and has about every symptom. I did not sleep well, and yet am fascinated by our correspondence. I've had no exposure to her for months, so no issue in that regard. She's young and athletic, so should recover well.

I meant no harm by intimating that John of Gaunt could be illegitimate. At this point it's all opinion until perhaps such a time as DNA intervenes in some fashion.

My date for John Savage of Barrow as c 1590 is clearly in error. Yes, 1576/77 is the more probable date. One can imagine that Mary Allington was not at all pleased about the situation, especially when her first born of the same name died young.

Interesting that the History of Chester for Barrow notes that John of Barrow had children baptized there from 1608 to 1620. This perhaps leaves the possibility that he relocated and is the man later of Wootton/Onibury and had a further son Arthur in early 1621? I recall reading that his half brother Thomas, Viscount had tried and failed to help him make MP. They had both lost another brother John (C2) in 1609 to murder. The murderer Ralph Bathurst being pressed to death 13 July 1609 for the crime. Crossed the wrong family.... Perhaps Viscount Thomas and John of Barrow were close as his attempted assistance might suggest. One has to wonder if the Viscount ultimately helped his 1/2 sibling to obtain a knighthood and establish a new residence? John of Barrow was perhaps a working man (merchant?) who had designs to elevate his station (styled Mr. early). It's possible that he ultimately did. Their father Sir John, 1st Baronet was a very wealthy man with great lands and had been among the very first I believe to purchase his baronetcy. I'm sure his offspring, whatever their legitimacy, would not have been averse to improving their condition as resources became available. Having a cousin Sir Edward (C8) on the Privy Council may have worked to advantage.

There is a William Savage (C4) preceding. I have no further information regarding him except his mention in the IPM of the Baronet. A date of 1620 seems a little early to be making a will, unless there was a health issue that prompted it.

Interesting that there were evidently 2 Sir John Savages with wives named Margaret, that both had sons Arthur in an almost the same time frame.
The John of Wootton mentioned as father of Arthur of the Oxford Alumni there was not noted as a knight, but he evidently was as early as Arthur's birth some 22 years earlier?

[Mark Jennings]

On Sunday, January 17, 2021 at 2:14:01 PM UTC, ache...@gmail.com wrote:

>
> There is a William Savage (C4) preceding. I have no further information regarding him except his mention in the IPM of the Baronet. A date of 1620 seems a little early to be making a will, unless there was a health issue that prompted it.
>
> Interesting that there were evidently 2 Sir John Savages with wives named Margaret, that both had sons Arthur in an almost the same time frame.
> The John of Wootton mentioned as father of Arthur of the Oxford Alumni there was not noted as a knight, but he evidently was as early as Arthur's birth some 22 years earlier?

With respect, you may be 'barking up the wrong tree' by continuing to focus on the Rocksavage/Staffordshire family - apart from the use of their arms (and arms were misappropriated with depressing regulatory as taf has pointed out), there is no reason to assume that the emigrant Thomas was from that line, and every reason to believe he came from Sussex yeoman stock. The Savages of Lewes seem to be connected to the family of that name who came from Ditchling and moved to Cuckfield.

I note that the Sussex Marriage Licences include one dated 19 October 1639 for "John Pelling of Chailey, yeoman" and "Jane Savage of Dichening [presumably Ditchling], maiden", to marry at St John sub Castro, Lewes; could this be the sister named in Thomas Savage's will, whose name was difficult to read but was guessed at as "Perking"?

[Mark Jennings]

Looking at various snippets, there was a Richard Savage of Lewes, tailor, who acted as administrator to the estate of his brother Allen Savage of Ditchling in 1607; he may or may not have been the Richard Savage of Lewes, yeoman, whose son Joab (sic) was apprenticed to a London draper in 1615 [so Joab was likely born around 1600]. By 1619, Richard son of William Savage is named in a list of trustees at Lewes [he may have been legally a minor, as the list reads like an attempt to ensure longevity for the trust by appointing various men's sons - East Sussex RO, AMS5897/57]. The Revd Arthur Savage states that his nephew James Savage was a saddler of Lewes; there is a Richard Savage of Lewes, saddler, who acted as a surety for a 1641 Sussex marriage licence, while the Revd Arthur's son was named Richard. Added to the fact that Thomas (and therefore presumably Arthur) also had a "cozen" [probably nephew] who went to Barbados, and Leonard is a name used by the Lewes/Chailey Savages, it seems highly likely that the answer to this lies in the Lewes records.

[taf]

On Sunday, January 17, 2021 at 6:55:58 AM UTC-8, Mark Jennings wrote:
> On Sunday, January 17, 2021 at 2:14:01 PM UTC, ache...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >
> > There is a William Savage (C4) preceding. I have no further information regarding him except his mention in the IPM of the Baronet. A date of 1620 seems a little early to be making a will, unless there was a health issue that prompted it.
> >
> > Interesting that there were evidently 2 Sir John Savages with wives named Margaret, that both had sons Arthur in an almost the same time frame.
> > The John of Wootton mentioned as father of Arthur of the Oxford Alumni there was not noted as a knight, but he evidently was as early as Arthur's birth some 22 years earlier?
> With respect, you may be 'barking up the wrong tree' by continuing to focus on the Rocksavage/Staffordshire family

. . . if the goal is to determine the origin of the immigrant. Sir John of Wootton not having a son who got on a boat doesn't really affect my interest in the question one way or the other.

The introduction to the Onibury register volume reports that a Roger Savage presented to the parish in 1509, so Sir John may have come from a lineage that had been there for some time. Keep in mind that the derivation of the Wootton Savages from the baronets was argued on the basis of the arms used by the immigrant, but if the immigrant was not a member of this family, there is no actual evidence for any connection at all, though the geographical proximity and gentry status does hint at a connection with the broader Clifton Savage clan, but that could be very deep.

taf

[ache...@gmail.com]

Agreed on all counts. There is only a slim chance, in my opinion, that Maj.Thomas could even possibly be displaying the original coat of arms matriculated for Sir John, husband of Elizabeth Manners correctly. That is if he is either the son of a John of Barrow who had been legitimized (since their appears no engrailed border around the arms in the portrait), or he is son of the brother John who was murdered; AND Viscount Thomas agreed to let that individual use it because he'd already impaled his wife's coat. Seems a pretty long shot in my opinion, but we're probably close to eliminating that as a possibility. A finer examination of John of Barrow wastes only time, and probably resolves the question of the arms he displayed.

[Mark Jennings]

It seems fairly clear that the Onibury/Wootton Hall Savages are a branch of the Rock Savage line. We have the MI for Arthur Savage at Chester (1643), which shows him with the arms of the Rocksavage family and states that he was "son and heir" of Sir John Savage, grandson of Edward Savage who was 2nd son of Sir John Savage of Rocksavage (son Edward and his wife Polixena are named in the 1598 will of Sir John of Rocksavage, together with Edward's sons Roger and John - Cheshire Archives DCH/E/310 ). This Arthur is the man baptised at Onibury in 1621, and who attended Oxford university (presumably he did not graduate, which is not unusual for gentry heirs). The Savage-Taylor suit makes it clear that Arthur's father, Sir John, had property in Hampshire as well as Salop, so the identification of him as the Sir John Savage of Beaurepaire seems safe. HoP has a detailed biography of Edward Savage:

https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1604-1629/member/savage-edward-i-1560-1622

Roger Savage, knight, who held the advowson of Onibury in 1509, was presumably an earlier collateral member of the same family - Ormerod (Cheshire, 1882, II, 342) cites a document from 1521 by "Sir John Savage senior", relating to a grant of the advowson of Barrow, in which he mentions his "natural and legitimate son" Roger Savage, as well as Roger Savage, rector of Davenham.

While this covers the relationship between the Wootton and Rocksavage families, as taf notes, it doesn't per se impact on the likely English origins of Thomas Savage the emigrant.

[Peter Stewart]

I doubt that extra-marital adventures were always as free a choice for
the woman as for the man - but in any case, it is also doubtful whether
any opportunistic fiction about paternity was always just the woman's doing.

Human nature has not changed since the middle ages. Modern advertising
directed at the wealthiest consumers often portrays a fat, bald, ageing
man with a much younger, fitter and better-looking wife. This is crass
flattery to the unthinking vanity of men whose inner voice is evidently
supposed to be saying to themselves something like "O you virile devil".
I don't think it's much of a stretch to imagine an ageing medieval
magnate thinking to himself "O you prepotent lothario" and claiming to
have fathered someone else's bastard offspring at very little cost to
finances and none at all to pride.

Peter Stewart

[ache...@gmail.com]

Citations for Savages of Lewes Sussex:

Sussex Genealogies: Ardingly Centre 1931- Page 301 (Snippet)
Savage of Cuckfield . I. ALLEN SAVAGE , of Ditchling , in adm " 27 Feb. 1607 ( Lewes B3 . 114 ) , granted to his brother Richard Savage , of Lewes , tgailor . Md Anne Will dt . 16 May 1617 , prd ' 6 Dec. 1617 ( Lewes A16 . 80 ) . ] Had issue , all ...

https://www.google.com/search?q=Richard+Savage+Sussex&tbm=bks&sxsrf=ALeKk01XuTykcTpTUMhlOzTcF_n4ZzukKw:1610918729477&ei=SasEYKzKHIO-tAaO45a4DA&start=10&sa=N&ved=0ahUKEwjskof186PuAhUDH80KHY6xBccQ8tMDCIoB&biw=1539&bih=901&dpr=1
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/62c1437a-eb46-4801-bd66-fded7b99a156

The Parish Registers of Cuckfield, Sussex: 1598-1699- Page 158
Walter Charles Renshaw • 1911 • ‎Snippet view
Found inside – Page 158

21 Anne Verall . 1635 Jan. 6 Infant d . of Henry Mitten . Jan. 20 John s. of Richard Savage . Jan. 22 Robert 8. of John Ashfold . Jan. 22 Joane Hils , widow . Jan. 29 Jeffrey Hardam , an honest man . Feb. 8 Richard 8. of Richard Burt , butcher .

https://www.familysearch.org/library/books/records/item/108989-the-parish-registers-of-cuckfield-sussex-1598-1699?viewer=1&offset=0#page=160&viewer=picture&o=search&n=0&q=savage

Richard Savage, sadler of Lewes (Playden)

https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_History_and_Antiquities_of_Lewes_and/6wUWAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Richard+Savage+lewes&pg=PR41&printsec=frontcover

pg. 6 (Leonard),156 (Alan), 159 (Leonard), 215 (Elizabeth), 259 (Jane, md. John Pelling), 271 (Anne)

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Calendar_of_Sussex_Marriage_Licenses/st5AAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Richard+Savage+lewes&pg=PA228&printsec=frontcover

Wills for Leonard Savage, mercer of Lewes (1616) pg. 178; Anne Savage, widow of Ditchling (1617) pg. 178; Will/Admin James Savage of Ditchling pg. 396; Richard Savage of Piddinghoe, bachelor (1632) pg. 374; William Savage, Lewes, tailor (1620/1633) pg. 214; Allan Savage of Ditchling (1608) pg. 309

https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Index_Library/Qf88AQAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Leonard+Savage+lewes&pg=PA178&printsec=frontcover

Admin of will Leonard Savage of Chiltington to father Leonard. Westmeston Sussex (1649) pg. 485

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Abstracts_of_Probate_Acts_in_the_Preroga/9iARAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Leonard+Savage+Sussex&pg=PA485&printsec=frontcover

History of Ditchling

https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_history_of_Ditchling_in_the_county_o/Gm5EAQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Richard+Savage+Sussex&pg=PA150&printsec=frontcover

Probably quite a bit in these, particularly the first (Sussex Genealogies: Ardingly Centre 1931- Page 301) if a copy can be accessed, and also the Cuckfield Parish Register which can be.

[Mark Jennings]

On Sunday, January 17, 2021 at 9:59:04 PM UTC, ache...@gmail.com wrote:

> Citations for Savages of Lewes Sussex:
>
> Sussex Genealogies: Ardingly Centre 1931- Page 301 (Snippet)
> Savage of Cuckfield . I. ALLEN SAVAGE , of Ditchling , in adm " 27 Feb. 1607 ( Lewes B3 . 114 ) , granted to his brother Richard Savage , of Lewes , tgailor . Md Anne Will dt . 16 May 1617 , prd ' 6 Dec. 1617 ( Lewes A16 . 80 ) . ] Had issue , all ...
>
> https://www.google.com/search?q=Richard+Savage+Sussex&tbm=bks&sxsrf=ALeKk01XuTykcTpTUMhlOzTcF_n4ZzukKw:1610918729477&ei=SasEYKzKHIO-tAaO45a4DA&start=10&sa=N&ved=0ahUKEwjskof186PuAhUDH80KHY6xBccQ8tMDCIoB&biw=1539&bih=901&dpr=1
> https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/62c1437a-eb46-4801-bd66-fded7b99a156
>
> The Parish Registers of Cuckfield, Sussex: 1598-1699- Page 158
> Walter Charles Renshaw • 1911 • ‎Snippet view
> Found inside – Page 158
>
> 21 Anne Verall . 1635 Jan. 6 Infant d . of Henry Mitten . Jan. 20 John s. of Richard Savage . Jan. 22 Robert 8. of John Ashfold . Jan. 22 Joane Hils , widow . Jan. 29 Jeffrey Hardam , an honest man . Feb. 8 Richard 8. of Richard Burt , butcher .
>
> https://www.familysearch.org/library/books/records/item/108989-the-parish-registers-of-cuckfield-sussex-1598-1699?viewer=1&offset=0#page=160&viewer=picture&o=search&n=0&q=savage
>
> Richard Savage, sadler of Lewes (Playden)
>
> https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_History_and_Antiquities_of_Lewes_and/6wUWAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Richard+Savage+lewes&pg=PR41&printsec=frontcover
>
> pg. 6 (Leonard),156 (Alan), 159 (Leonard), 215 (Elizabeth), 259 (Jane, md. John Pelling), 271 (Anne)
>
> https://www.google.com/books/edition/Calendar_of_Sussex_Marriage_Licenses/st5AAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Richard+Savage+lewes&pg=PA228&printsec=frontcover
>
> Wills for Leonard Savage, mercer of Lewes (1616) pg. 178; Anne Savage, widow of Ditchling (1617) pg. 178; Will/Admin James Savage of Ditchling pg. 396; Richard Savage of Piddinghoe, bachelor (1632) pg. 374; William Savage, Lewes, tailor (1620/1633) pg. 214; Allan Savage of Ditchling (1608) pg. 309
>
> https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Index_Library/Qf88AQAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Leonard+Savage+lewes&pg=PA178&printsec=frontcover
>
> Admin of will Leonard Savage of Chiltington to father Leonard. Westmeston Sussex (1649) pg. 485
>
> https://www.google.com/books/edition/Abstracts_of_Probate_Acts_in_the_Preroga/9iARAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Leonard+Savage+Sussex&pg=PA485&printsec=frontcover
>
> History of Ditchling
>
> https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_history_of_Ditchling_in_the_county_o/Gm5EAQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Richard+Savage+Sussex&pg=PA150&printsec=frontcover
>
> Probably quite a bit in these, particularly the first (Sussex Genealogies: Ardingly Centre 1931- Page 301) if a copy can be accessed, and also the Cuckfield Parish Register which can be.

Unfortunately, none of those citations will advance things materially - some of them won't advance it at all [eg the 1649 grants in respect of Leonard Savage's estate - both father and son are covered by full PCC wills, neither of which provides any information relevant to Thomas of New England; the "Sussex Genealogies" article merely states that William Savage of Lewes was the son of Allen (administration grant 1607) and Anne (will 1617) Savage of Ditchling, and was allegedly baptised at Lindfield in 1580]. To move forward on this, the sensible thing would be to order copies of some of the wills at Lewes, as per the link provided above - start with William (1633/4) in case he was the father of Thomas, then try Anne (1617) and Leonard (1616).

[paulorica...@gmail.com]

I disagree. I, actually, think that, if anything, those are the two strongest links. Noblemen hardly recognized illegitimate children they weren't sure were theirs.

[taf]

On Sunday, January 17, 2021 at 4:03:12 PM UTC-8, paulorica...@gmail.com wrote:

> I disagree. I, actually, think that, if anything, those are the two strongest links. Noblemen hardly recognized illegitimate children they weren't sure were theirs.

They couldn't exactly go on a 'who's your baby-daddy' TV show. Throughout history, without DNA, there have been a whole lot more men who only think they are sure than there have been men who actually are. Short of actual imprisonment, a man doesn't need his mistress to actually be exclusive to be 'sure' her child is his - he only needs to lack the imagination to envision the alternative.

taf

[Peter Stewart]

Unless you are going to argue that whenever a nobleman feels sure of
something then it is ipso facto verifiably true, I don't get the point
of this.

How do you suppose they ascertained paternity in order to convince us
beyond question, not just themselves?

Peter Stewart

[ache...@gmail.com]

Well as it happens someone thinks they've already sorted this all out. Can't vouch for accuracy, but
https://www.amazon.com/Savage-Families-County-Sussex-England/dp/153490199X#reader_153490199X

[taf]

On Sunday, January 17, 2021 at 5:31:45 PM UTC-8, ache...@gmail.com wrote:

> Well as it happens someone thinks they've already sorted this all out. Can't vouch for accuracy, but
> https://www.amazon.com/Savage-Families-County-Sussex-England/dp/153490199X#reader_153490199X

Indeed. And it will only cost us 120 smackers to find out.

As an aside, I do wonder about some wording in the description: "Between about 1500 and 1700, four relatively complete Savage families appear to have existed in Sussex, . . . . Between about 1700 and 1900, a further five relatively complete Savage families also existed in Sussex."

What constitutes a 'complete' family as opposed to an incomplete one? Is there a particular process by which a family is completed? Or is a 'relatively complete' family simply a family completely made up of relatives?

taf

[ache...@gmail.com]

Fortunately I was allowed to preview the parts of the book covering what we are most interested in-

It indicates that Thomas Savage was baptized July 5, 1607 at St. Michael's in Lewes, Sussex and was baptized along with (presumably) his twin brother Richard. Their father was Richard Savage (b. c. 1575), shoemaker of Lewes, and mother Margaret Wemble. This couple were wed at St. Mary the Virgin Church, Barcombe, East Sussex on August 13, 1598. Four other sons (John, Job, Richard, Thomas, Robert, Arthur in order) and a daughter (Jane) are also recorded, Arthur being the youngest son born in 1613. Conveniently, Richard Savage's (who married Margaret Wemble) father is named as Leonard Savage (a mercer and "ancient householder") and his spouse is Agnes Holter, also of Lewes (John Holter of Lewes her father). This Leonard's father is then named as Richard (b. c. 1520) and mother Johanne. The brother that Maj. Thomas's two granddaughter's couldn't recall was probably this Richard. Notably, Maj. Thomas's first son by his 2nd wife is named Richard, for perhaps his father and/or brother.

"Cozen" Leonard Savage is by their documentation actually a 2nd cousin. His father being Leonard Savage, Yeoman of Chailey, Sussex (b. 1573), grandfather Nicholas Savage of Chailey (b. 1551) m. Agnes Wood, he born to the aforesaid Richard Savage (b. c. 1520) with wife Johanne.

The naming of the church that Thomas and siblings were baptized in would make it a relatively straightforward task for someone to verify Thomas and his younger brother Arthur if anyone needs verification (My Ancestry,com account doesn't cover England, but the index indicated something is there). Thomas's twin Richard (a sadler) married Mary Vinche (in Echingham, Sussex, no date that I could view), was the surety of many marriages at Lewes (betw. 1636-1642) (frequently cited in the Marriages of Lewes Archdeaconry I note), and I find he was probably constable of Lewes in 1650 and 1661 (last date known for him). Several generations further are traced as well as most of the lines from their 5 other brothers to some degree. The twin (Richard m. Mary Vinche) is supposed as being the father of the James' (also a sadler, hence why he was appended to him) who was the father of the Arthur, James and Elizabeth mentioned in Maj. Thomas's will.

They have no apparent connection to the Savages of Rocksavage, and if related at all it would seem to have been prior to that period.
If the information is correct, then the portrait of the Major is no more than a brazen attempt as self aggrandizement, which I believe is probably the case.

If the documents indeed exist as they probably do, the mystery remains a mystery no more (True- in my opinion, but each to our own).

Thanks for everyone's interest. I had rather hoped I'd get a bit more "mental distraction research" out of this line.
Stay well,
Richard

[Carl-Henry Geschwind]

On Monday, January 18, 2021 at 3:05:48 PM UTC-5, ache...@gmail.com wrote:

>
> The naming of the church that Thomas and siblings were baptized in would make it a relatively straightforward task for someone to verify Thomas and his younger brother Arthur if anyone needs verification (My Ancestry,com account doesn't cover England, but the index indicated something is there).

The Bishop's transcripts for this parish beginning in 1606 are online at familysearch.org. For the baptism of Thomas and his twin Richard in 1607 see https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-XC3Z-BHS?i=368&cat=584569. And for the baptism of Arthur on 11 July 1613 see https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-XC3Z-1SY?i=383&cat=584569

[ache...@gmail.com]

Excellent! Thank you very much.

[ache...@gmail.com]

also,
Robert Savage bp. 20(?) Oct. 1610 (perhaps someone has better eyes? Very first entry on the page)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-XC38-M1B?i=377&cat=584569

Daughter is actually Sarah, not Jane, bp. 25 May 1617 (last entry for May)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-XC38-399?i=388&cat=584569

The elder 2 brothers John (b. 1603) and Job (b. c. 1605)- prior to the commencement of this parish register.

[taf]

On Monday, January 18, 2021 at 1:16:06 PM UTC-8, ache...@gmail.com wrote:

> Robert Savage bp. 20(?) Oct. 1610 (perhaps someone has better eyes? Very first entry on the page)
> https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-XC38-M1B?i=377&cat=584569

I read this differently as:
Robert Savadge sonne of Richard Savadge was baptized the one & twentithe of October
i.e. 21 October-

> Daughter is actually Sarah, not Jane, bp. 25 May 1617 (last entry for May)
> https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-XC38-399?i=388&cat=584569

Actually Sara, assuming the bishop's transcript matches the original registers. I have seen children given different names in the two records due to transcription error preparing the bishop's report, and without the ending 'h' I could envision Jane being mis-transcribed as Sara.

taf

[Mark Jennings]

On Monday, January 18, 2021 at 8:05:48 PM UTC, ache...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> "Cozen" Leonard Savage is by their documentation actually a 2nd cousin. His father being Leonard Savage, Yeoman of Chailey, Sussex (b. 1573), grandfather Nicholas Savage of Chailey (b. 1551) m. Agnes Wood, he born to the aforesaid Richard Savage (b. c. 1520) with wife Johanne.

That would seem unlikely - apart from the fact that "kinsman" would more likely have been used for such a distant relationship, Leonard Savage of Chailey was probably the man of that name whose will was proved in the PCC in 1650 - "Leonard Savage of Chailey, yeoman" was bondsman for the marriage licence of Joan Savage of Chailey and John Glasebrooke of Barcombe, while the testator of the 1650 will names his son-in-law John Glasebrooke. That Leonard's son Leonard had predeceased him; a grandson Leonard is named in the will, but it is hard to imagine that a man in New England would remember a 2nd cousin twice removed in his will.

(snip)

>
> They have no apparent connection to the Savages of Rocksavage

Indeed.

> and if related at all it would seem to have been prior to that period.

No reason to think there is any genealogical connection, however distant.

> If the information is correct, then the portrait of the Major is no more than a brazen attempt as self aggrandizement, which I believe is probably the case.

Welcome to the club :-)

[wjhonson]

The reason the Savage's lost Beaurepaire is because they were never really entitled to it at any rate.
Beaurepaire came to this line from Eleanor Cotgrave because of her *childless* marriage to the widower Richard Pexsall
So she had it for life, not after. When she died, even though they had made machinations to settle it upon Edward, it wasn't their's to settle.

And even though John, and *his not her* son lived there, it was in her right, for her life, only.

[JBrand]

On Monday, January 18, 2021 at 5:21:37 PM UTC-5, taf wrote:

> Actually Sara, assuming the bishop's transcript matches the original registers. I have seen children given different names in the two records due to transcription error preparing the bishop's report, and without the ending 'h' I could envision Jane being mis-transcribed as Sara.
>
> taf

I agree with this, especially if the original name in the register was really "Jana," rather than plain "Jane".

[paulorica...@gmail.com]

I didn't mean that meant the biological parentage was completely certainly, only that it had a higher degree of certainty than legitimate parentages. Noblemen had to acknowledge their legitimate children but could choose whether to aacknowledge illegitimate children.

[taf]

On Sunday, January 24, 2021 at 3:07:15 AM UTC-8, paulorica...@gmail.com wrote:

> I didn't mean that meant the biological parentage was completely certainly, only that it had a higher degree of certainty than legitimate parentages. Noblemen had to acknowledge their legitimate children but could choose whether to aacknowledge illegitimate children.

I just don't agree with this. It puts the whole concept of certainty on the wrong person. The mother (probably) knows; the father is just making assumptions based on circumstance and what the mother has led him to believe, and there is plenty of motivation for a mistress to convince her sugar daddy to keep the sweets coming her way and her child's, whatever the truth may be.

taf

[Peter Stewart]

This is a fallacious simplification of human affairs that doesn't
withstand reflection.

Suppose a man came back after a year away from his wife to discover that
she had given birth 2 months beforehand, or took a wife who gave birth 8
months after he had consummated their union. Could he choose whether or
not to acknowledge the child as his own? Stretch these timings by a
further month and repeat until you would draw the line. Then examine the
evidence for specific cases where this was tried for possibly overdue or
premature babies, and then for impossibly overdue or premature babies,
and either failed or succeeded with the authorities. Then come back and
tell us if you still maintain your specious reasoning.

Peter Stewart

[paulorica...@gmail.com]

I admit you showed my argument to be faulty. BTW, out of curiosity, could you, please, point me out to one of those cases?