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Margaret Langford, m. Nicholas Carew
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Patrick Nielsen Hayden
Jul 27, 2014, 3:27:03 PM7/27/14
to
Attempting to sort out a couple of questions about Margaret Langford (b. abt
1438), who married Nicholas Carew (1436-1466), has led me into a rabbit-hole
of contradictory assertions from secondary sources and past SGM posts. Since
I lack access to many primary sources and even to some of the reputable
secondary sources often cited here, I wonder if anyone can help.
First, was this Margaret Langford actually the daughter of Edward Langford
who was married to Sancha Blount? I've seen this asserted without citation,
and certainly the dates and places work out--she and this Edward are both
often given as "of" Bradfield, Berkshire, and they were born between 20 and
25 years apart. But do we know more firmly that Edward and Sancha were her
parents?
(The fact that Margaret Langford appears to have had a daughter named
Saynche, often given as Sancha, Sanche, or Sanchea, seems like good
onomastic evidence, particularly since Sancha Blount was the granddaughter
of the genealogically-famous Ayala de Sancha. I don't think too many
fifteenth-century English families had a Sancha in every other generation
without a good reason for it. But onomastic proof isn't the same as proof
proof.)
Second, most sources give Nicholas Carew as either Margaret Langford's only
husband or as her second husband. Other husbands mentioned are, usually 1st,
a man named Carant or Carrant, no first name known; and usually 3rd, a man
named Twynyho, usually given as William Twynyho.
Third, it is variously asserted that:
(1) After the death of her third husband, usually Twynyho, she joined the
abbey at Shaftesbury, where in 1496/97 she was elected Abbess and served in
that office until her death in 1504. [2], citing [1]
(2) After the death of her third husband, usually Twynyho, she joined the
nunnery at the Cistercian abbey of Tarrant Kaines, Dorset; she made her will
in 1500, it was proved in 1501, and she was buried at her request at the
chapel of St. Francis in the church of the Grey Friars in Reading. [3]
(3) As "a Reading widow" or "a widow in Reading", she made her will in 1500,
it was proved in 1501, and she was buried at her request at the chapel of
St. Francis in the church of the Grey Friars in Reading. [4] [5]
Regarding probably-William Twynyho, VCH Gloucester (volume 9, page 195)
shows that there there was a William Twynyho whose first wife died in time
that he could have married Margaret Langford late in life, and then himself
died in time for her to become a Cistercian nun in Dorset, or the Abbess at
Shaftesbury, or a widow in Reading in 1500. [6]
(Assuming that this marriage happened as described above, and that we're
talking about the people we think we are, then Edward Twynyho of Shipton
Solers, who died c. 1526, would have lived to see his paternal grandfather
marry his maternal grandmother. Not that there's anything wrong with that.)
Complicating matters, at least one source, [5], has a _Thomas_ Twynyho as
Margaret Langford's _first_ husband, has them as the parents of a William
Twynyho, and then shows Nicholas Carew as her second husband (agreeing with
everybody) and the mysterious "Carrent" as her third (agreeing with nobody).
Okay, this is a very secondary source, and perhaps its confusions are no
more worth worrying about than the half-dozen variant spellings of Twynyho.
One more thing. It's probably obvious to everybody that she can't have been
simultaneously a nun at Tarrant Kaines and an abbess at Shaftesbury. But
it's probably worth pointing out that in neither of these scenarios does it
seem likely that she would have asked to be buried at a Franciscan
establishment like Grey Friars in Reading. Shaftesbury was an utterly
conventional Benedictine establishment, emphasizing (as Benedictines did)
contemplation and withdrawal from worldly concerns. The Cistercians were an
offshoot who felt that the Benedictines weren't withdrawn and contemplative
_enough_. Franciscans were the opposite of all that. These distinctions
mattered, a lot, to people who took holy orders. Maybe I'm offbase, but it
seems to me unlikely that a Benedictine or Cistercian religious would ask to
have her body interred in a Franciscan chapel.
Anyway, I would be delighted to hear from anybody who can shed light on any
of this.
Sources cited:
[1] "A List of the Abbesses of Shaftesbury, taken from antient Charters, the
Abbey Registers, the Sarum Registers of Institution, and Mr. Willis's
History of Abbeys", in A History of the Antient Town of Shaftesbury, by
Thomas Adams, 1808. Page 25: "Margery Twyneo, or Twyniho, elected 11th Feb.
was confirmed, and received the benediction, 14th Feb 1496. She died 1504."
[2] From "Twyniho Family," post to SGM by mrdgen, 3 Nov 2013: "WILLIAM
TWYNIHO, of More Crichel; died 1497. Married first to Catherine Solers, and
second to Margaret Langford, widow of Nicholas Carew and ----- Carrent. In
Margaret's will as transcribed, he is called Thomas, but More Crichel is
identified correctly. After his death, she became abbess of Shaftesbury in
1496/7, and died 1504 [...]"
[3] "The Manor and Church of Great Chalfield", by the Rev. J. Silvester
Davies, M.A., F.S.A., F. R. Hist. S, in Transactions of the Bristol and
Gloucestershire Archaeological Society, volume 23, 1900. Page 251: "At the
north-east corner of the same chantry [at Corsham Church, Great Chalfield,
near Bradford-on-Avon, Wiltshire, England] is the only other tomb of the
Tropenells, and its identification has not, I believe, hitherto been
established. It is that of Christopher (son of the above) [Christopher
Tropenell, son of Thomas Tropenell (abt 1405-1488) by Margaret, second
daughter of William Ludlow of Hill Deverell] and of his wife Anne, second
daughter of Nicholas Carewe and Margaret his wife. This Margaret was
daughter of Edward Langford, and formerly wife of John (?) Carant, and after
the death of Carewe, of John (?) Twynyhoo. This lady, after her triple
experience of matrimony, retired from the world as a religious of the
Cistercian nunnery of Tarant, Dorset; and in her will, bearing date July
21st, 1500, and proved March 4th, 1501, after arranging for her own burial
at the Grey Friars, Reading, near the tomb which she made there over her
father and mother, and providing masses, etc., for all her husbands, makes
mention of Nicholas Carewe, her son, and of Ann Tropenell, her daughter, to
whom she bequeaths 'my coler of goold with panyers and flower, my great
herneys of goold, and my next best primer.'"
[4] VCH Berkshire, volume 2 (1907), "The Grey Friars of Reading," pp.
89-91.: "Margaret Twynho, a Reading widow, by will proved in 1501 left her
body to be buried in the chapel of St. Francis in the Grey Friars of
Reading, near the tomb of her father and mother." [VCH footnote here refers
to Hutchins, Hist. of Dorset, ii, 171. Note, I don't have a copy of
Hutchins's History of Dorset.]
[5] The History and Antiquities of Reading, by the Rev. Charles Coates,
LL.B. London: J. Nichols and Son, 1802. Page 302: "Margaret Twyniho, of
Reading, widow, by will, dated 1500, and proved in 1501, ordered her body to
be buried in the chapel of St. Francis, in the Grey Friars in Reading, near
the tomb of her father and mother. In this will are mentioned Carew and
Carrent, her second and third husbands, also Nicholas her son, Elizabeth and
Margaret her daughters, and William Twyniho her son: and she gives to the
church of More-Crichel in Dorsetshire, where her husband Thomas Twyniho was
buried, the sum of 13s. 4d." [Footnote attached to Margary's name also
refers to Hutchins, Hist. of Dorset, ii, 171.]
[6] VCH Gloucester, volume 9, page 195: "Catherine, the daughter of John
Solers, inherited Shipton Solers manor, and her husband William Twyniho,
described in 1470 as of Shipton Solers, held it by courtesy after her death
in 1494. William (d. 1497) was succeeded by his son Walter, who in 1508
settled the manor on his son Edward (d. 1526)."
--
Patrick Nielsen Hayden
p...@panix.com
about.me/patricknh
1438), who married Nicholas Carew (1436-1466), has led me into a rabbit-hole
of contradictory assertions from secondary sources and past SGM posts. Since
I lack access to many primary sources and even to some of the reputable
secondary sources often cited here, I wonder if anyone can help.
First, was this Margaret Langford actually the daughter of Edward Langford
who was married to Sancha Blount? I've seen this asserted without citation,
and certainly the dates and places work out--she and this Edward are both
often given as "of" Bradfield, Berkshire, and they were born between 20 and
25 years apart. But do we know more firmly that Edward and Sancha were her
parents?
(The fact that Margaret Langford appears to have had a daughter named
Saynche, often given as Sancha, Sanche, or Sanchea, seems like good
onomastic evidence, particularly since Sancha Blount was the granddaughter
of the genealogically-famous Ayala de Sancha. I don't think too many
fifteenth-century English families had a Sancha in every other generation
without a good reason for it. But onomastic proof isn't the same as proof
proof.)
Second, most sources give Nicholas Carew as either Margaret Langford's only
husband or as her second husband. Other husbands mentioned are, usually 1st,
a man named Carant or Carrant, no first name known; and usually 3rd, a man
named Twynyho, usually given as William Twynyho.
Third, it is variously asserted that:
(1) After the death of her third husband, usually Twynyho, she joined the
abbey at Shaftesbury, where in 1496/97 she was elected Abbess and served in
that office until her death in 1504. [2], citing [1]
(2) After the death of her third husband, usually Twynyho, she joined the
nunnery at the Cistercian abbey of Tarrant Kaines, Dorset; she made her will
in 1500, it was proved in 1501, and she was buried at her request at the
chapel of St. Francis in the church of the Grey Friars in Reading. [3]
(3) As "a Reading widow" or "a widow in Reading", she made her will in 1500,
it was proved in 1501, and she was buried at her request at the chapel of
St. Francis in the church of the Grey Friars in Reading. [4] [5]
Regarding probably-William Twynyho, VCH Gloucester (volume 9, page 195)
shows that there there was a William Twynyho whose first wife died in time
that he could have married Margaret Langford late in life, and then himself
died in time for her to become a Cistercian nun in Dorset, or the Abbess at
Shaftesbury, or a widow in Reading in 1500. [6]
(Assuming that this marriage happened as described above, and that we're
talking about the people we think we are, then Edward Twynyho of Shipton
Solers, who died c. 1526, would have lived to see his paternal grandfather
marry his maternal grandmother. Not that there's anything wrong with that.)
Complicating matters, at least one source, [5], has a _Thomas_ Twynyho as
Margaret Langford's _first_ husband, has them as the parents of a William
Twynyho, and then shows Nicholas Carew as her second husband (agreeing with
everybody) and the mysterious "Carrent" as her third (agreeing with nobody).
Okay, this is a very secondary source, and perhaps its confusions are no
more worth worrying about than the half-dozen variant spellings of Twynyho.
One more thing. It's probably obvious to everybody that she can't have been
simultaneously a nun at Tarrant Kaines and an abbess at Shaftesbury. But
it's probably worth pointing out that in neither of these scenarios does it
seem likely that she would have asked to be buried at a Franciscan
establishment like Grey Friars in Reading. Shaftesbury was an utterly
conventional Benedictine establishment, emphasizing (as Benedictines did)
contemplation and withdrawal from worldly concerns. The Cistercians were an
offshoot who felt that the Benedictines weren't withdrawn and contemplative
_enough_. Franciscans were the opposite of all that. These distinctions
mattered, a lot, to people who took holy orders. Maybe I'm offbase, but it
seems to me unlikely that a Benedictine or Cistercian religious would ask to
have her body interred in a Franciscan chapel.
Anyway, I would be delighted to hear from anybody who can shed light on any
of this.
Sources cited:
[1] "A List of the Abbesses of Shaftesbury, taken from antient Charters, the
Abbey Registers, the Sarum Registers of Institution, and Mr. Willis's
History of Abbeys", in A History of the Antient Town of Shaftesbury, by
Thomas Adams, 1808. Page 25: "Margery Twyneo, or Twyniho, elected 11th Feb.
was confirmed, and received the benediction, 14th Feb 1496. She died 1504."
[2] From "Twyniho Family," post to SGM by mrdgen, 3 Nov 2013: "WILLIAM
TWYNIHO, of More Crichel; died 1497. Married first to Catherine Solers, and
second to Margaret Langford, widow of Nicholas Carew and ----- Carrent. In
Margaret's will as transcribed, he is called Thomas, but More Crichel is
identified correctly. After his death, she became abbess of Shaftesbury in
1496/7, and died 1504 [...]"
[3] "The Manor and Church of Great Chalfield", by the Rev. J. Silvester
Davies, M.A., F.S.A., F. R. Hist. S, in Transactions of the Bristol and
Gloucestershire Archaeological Society, volume 23, 1900. Page 251: "At the
north-east corner of the same chantry [at Corsham Church, Great Chalfield,
near Bradford-on-Avon, Wiltshire, England] is the only other tomb of the
Tropenells, and its identification has not, I believe, hitherto been
established. It is that of Christopher (son of the above) [Christopher
Tropenell, son of Thomas Tropenell (abt 1405-1488) by Margaret, second
daughter of William Ludlow of Hill Deverell] and of his wife Anne, second
daughter of Nicholas Carewe and Margaret his wife. This Margaret was
daughter of Edward Langford, and formerly wife of John (?) Carant, and after
the death of Carewe, of John (?) Twynyhoo. This lady, after her triple
experience of matrimony, retired from the world as a religious of the
Cistercian nunnery of Tarant, Dorset; and in her will, bearing date July
21st, 1500, and proved March 4th, 1501, after arranging for her own burial
at the Grey Friars, Reading, near the tomb which she made there over her
father and mother, and providing masses, etc., for all her husbands, makes
mention of Nicholas Carewe, her son, and of Ann Tropenell, her daughter, to
whom she bequeaths 'my coler of goold with panyers and flower, my great
herneys of goold, and my next best primer.'"
[4] VCH Berkshire, volume 2 (1907), "The Grey Friars of Reading," pp.
89-91.: "Margaret Twynho, a Reading widow, by will proved in 1501 left her
body to be buried in the chapel of St. Francis in the Grey Friars of
Reading, near the tomb of her father and mother." [VCH footnote here refers
to Hutchins, Hist. of Dorset, ii, 171. Note, I don't have a copy of
Hutchins's History of Dorset.]
[5] The History and Antiquities of Reading, by the Rev. Charles Coates,
LL.B. London: J. Nichols and Son, 1802. Page 302: "Margaret Twyniho, of
Reading, widow, by will, dated 1500, and proved in 1501, ordered her body to
be buried in the chapel of St. Francis, in the Grey Friars in Reading, near
the tomb of her father and mother. In this will are mentioned Carew and
Carrent, her second and third husbands, also Nicholas her son, Elizabeth and
Margaret her daughters, and William Twyniho her son: and she gives to the
church of More-Crichel in Dorsetshire, where her husband Thomas Twyniho was
buried, the sum of 13s. 4d." [Footnote attached to Margary's name also
refers to Hutchins, Hist. of Dorset, ii, 171.]
[6] VCH Gloucester, volume 9, page 195: "Catherine, the daughter of John
Solers, inherited Shipton Solers manor, and her husband William Twyniho,
described in 1470 as of Shipton Solers, held it by courtesy after her death
in 1494. William (d. 1497) was succeeded by his son Walter, who in 1508
settled the manor on his son Edward (d. 1526)."
--
Patrick Nielsen Hayden
p...@panix.com
about.me/patricknh
pj.evans
Jul 27, 2014, 5:51:43 PM7/27/14
to
karen sims via
Jul 28, 2014, 3:59:06 AM7/28/14
to GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com
Here's that abstract of Margaret's will. She is at "Carant Abbey", so not
the Abbess of Shaftsbury
http://books.google.com/books?id=mTwJAAAAIAAJ&pg=RA1-PA50
I've compared this to the actual will, it's better than some abstracts -
(the abstract of Nicholas Carew that follows immediately afterward is
terrible - Nicholas also has a son James, and daughters Rose, Margaret and
Emylyne.)
These relevant bits left out.of the will of Margaret- To the church of
Bradfeld in which I received the holy sacrament of baptism.
Master Wode, cheif justice, is to be the overseer of her will
For her daughter-in-law, "Cecill" I read it as "Sibbell"
The Will of Margaret Twynyhoo [formerly Carew and Carant] of Reding,
wydowe.—21 July, 1500.
To be buried in the church of the Gray ffreers in Redyng in the Chapell of
Blessid Saint ffraunces as nye the toumbe which I have made over my fader
and moder as can conveniently be.
To the churchis of Hengstrige and Marnehull [Dorset] to have my husband
Carant and me to be sett in the bederollys of the same churches xx s.-
To the church of Bradfeld xx s.
To the parish church of Frome to have my husband Twynhowe and me to be sett
in the bederoll there xx s.-
To the house of Carant Abbey where I am a sister xx s.-
To the church of More Kyrchill where my husband Twynyhoo lieth xiijs. iiij
d.
To the church of Bedyngton [Surrey] to pray for my husband Carewe,
Nicholas, my sonne and me xx s.-
To the parish churches of Purley, Sulhm and Hyde vj s. viij d.-
To my sonne Carant,
to Anne Tropenell my daughter,
to Sanche Ewerby (Irby) my daughter, (and after her decease her daughter)
to Elizabeth Twynyhoo my daughter and Margaret her daughter,
to my sister Cowdrey and my nece her daughter,
to my sister Newborough and my nece Agnes her daughter,
to Edward Twynyhoo and his sister Margaret my color of goold sett w' stonys
and perle and iij gilt bollis with a cover of Twynehoo bage,
to Cecill sometyme the wife of my sonne William Twynyhoo a grete fiatt
bolle of sylver and gilt w' a cover, (which was her faders) after her
decesse the said bolle to remayne to the daughter of William Adams late hir
husband,
to Thomasyn Langeford, (complete set of bedding, a pot, etc.)
to John Disconyns, John Heland of Shaftysbury, John Jankyns of Monketon,
and to Maist. Woode chief Juge of the Comyn place, sundry bequests.
The residue to my nevewe Sr John Langford, knyght, and my servant John
Adams of Confford, executors.
On Sun, Jul 27, 2014 at 5:51 PM, pj.evans via <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
wrote:
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>
the Abbess of Shaftsbury
http://books.google.com/books?id=mTwJAAAAIAAJ&pg=RA1-PA50
I've compared this to the actual will, it's better than some abstracts -
(the abstract of Nicholas Carew that follows immediately afterward is
terrible - Nicholas also has a son James, and daughters Rose, Margaret and
Emylyne.)
These relevant bits left out.of the will of Margaret- To the church of
Bradfeld in which I received the holy sacrament of baptism.
Master Wode, cheif justice, is to be the overseer of her will
For her daughter-in-law, "Cecill" I read it as "Sibbell"
The Will of Margaret Twynyhoo [formerly Carew and Carant] of Reding,
wydowe.—21 July, 1500.
To be buried in the church of the Gray ffreers in Redyng in the Chapell of
Blessid Saint ffraunces as nye the toumbe which I have made over my fader
and moder as can conveniently be.
To the churchis of Hengstrige and Marnehull [Dorset] to have my husband
Carant and me to be sett in the bederollys of the same churches xx s.-
To the church of Bradfeld xx s.
To the parish church of Frome to have my husband Twynhowe and me to be sett
in the bederoll there xx s.-
To the house of Carant Abbey where I am a sister xx s.-
To the church of More Kyrchill where my husband Twynyhoo lieth xiijs. iiij
d.
To the church of Bedyngton [Surrey] to pray for my husband Carewe,
Nicholas, my sonne and me xx s.-
To the parish churches of Purley, Sulhm and Hyde vj s. viij d.-
To my sonne Carant,
to Anne Tropenell my daughter,
to Sanche Ewerby (Irby) my daughter, (and after her decease her daughter)
to Elizabeth Twynyhoo my daughter and Margaret her daughter,
to my sister Cowdrey and my nece her daughter,
to my sister Newborough and my nece Agnes her daughter,
to Edward Twynyhoo and his sister Margaret my color of goold sett w' stonys
and perle and iij gilt bollis with a cover of Twynehoo bage,
to Cecill sometyme the wife of my sonne William Twynyhoo a grete fiatt
bolle of sylver and gilt w' a cover, (which was her faders) after her
decesse the said bolle to remayne to the daughter of William Adams late hir
husband,
to Thomasyn Langeford, (complete set of bedding, a pot, etc.)
to John Disconyns, John Heland of Shaftysbury, John Jankyns of Monketon,
and to Maist. Woode chief Juge of the Comyn place, sundry bequests.
The residue to my nevewe Sr John Langford, knyght, and my servant John
Adams of Confford, executors.
On Sun, Jul 27, 2014 at 5:51 PM, pj.evans via <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
wrote:
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>
Matt Tompkins
Jul 28, 2014, 4:19:34 AM7/28/14
to
On Sunday, 27 July 2014 20:27:03 UTC+1, Patrick Nielsen Hayden wrote:
<snip>
Matt Tompkins
<snip>
> One more thing. It's probably obvious to everybody that she can't have been
> simultaneously a nun at Tarrant Kaines and an abbess at Shaftesbury. But
> it's probably worth pointing out that in neither of these scenarios does it
> seem likely that she would have asked to be buried at a Franciscan
> establishment like Grey Friars in Reading. Shaftesbury was an utterly
> conventional Benedictine establishment, emphasizing (as Benedictines did)
> contemplation and withdrawal from worldly concerns. The Cistercians were an
> offshoot who felt that the Benedictines weren't withdrawn and contemplative
> _enough_. Franciscans were the opposite of all that. These distinctions
> mattered, a lot, to people who took holy orders. Maybe I'm offbase, but it
> seems to me unlikely that a Benedictine or Cistercian religious would ask to
> have her body interred in a Franciscan chapel.
>
Yes, indeed. Exactly that thought occurred to me as I read the earlier part of your post.
> simultaneously a nun at Tarrant Kaines and an abbess at Shaftesbury. But
> it's probably worth pointing out that in neither of these scenarios does it
> seem likely that she would have asked to be buried at a Franciscan
> establishment like Grey Friars in Reading. Shaftesbury was an utterly
> conventional Benedictine establishment, emphasizing (as Benedictines did)
> contemplation and withdrawal from worldly concerns. The Cistercians were an
> offshoot who felt that the Benedictines weren't withdrawn and contemplative
> _enough_. Franciscans were the opposite of all that. These distinctions
> mattered, a lot, to people who took holy orders. Maybe I'm offbase, but it
> seems to me unlikely that a Benedictine or Cistercian religious would ask to
> have her body interred in a Franciscan chapel.
>
Matt Tompkins
Douglas Richardson
Jul 28, 2014, 12:29:39 PM7/28/14
to
Dear Patrick ~
In answer to your post, I can attest that Margaret Langford, wife of Nicholas Carew, Esq., was the daughter of Edward Langford, Esq., of Bradfield, Berkshire and Langley and Minsdenbury (both in Hitchin), Hertfordshire, by Sanche, daughter of Thomas Blount, Knt.
Margaret Langford married (1st) in or before 1454 Nicholas Carew, Esq., of Beddington, Surrey. Their marriage and Margaret's parentage is proven by a settlement dated 1454, by which her husband, Nicholas Carew's father, also Nicholas Carew, Esq., settled the manor of Great Purley, Berkshire on himself for life, with reversion to his son, Nicholas, and his wife, Margaret, "the daughter of Edward Langford." See VCH Berkshire 3 (1923): 417-422, which may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=43236&strquery=Purley
VCH Berkshire in turn cites as its source for the settlement the following record:
Feet of F. Berks. 32 Hen. VI, no. 1.
Nicholas Carew and his wife, Margaret Langford, had one son, Nicholas, and three daughters, Sanche (wife of John Iwardby/Ewerby), Anne (wife of Christopher Tropenell), and Elizabeth (wife of Walter Twynyho).
Following Nicholas Carew's death in 1466, Margaret Langford married (2nd) before 1474 (as his 2nd wife) John Carent, Esq., of Ash in Stour-Pain, Dorset, Toomer (in Henstridge), Somerset, etc., Knight of the Shire for Dorset, 1453-4, Sheriff of Somerset and Dorset, 1459-60, son and heir of William Carent, Esq., of Toomer (in Henstridge), Somerset, Knight of the Shire for Dorset, 1420, 1426-7, Knight of the Shire for Somerset, 1423, 1445, 1450, Sheriff of Somerset and Dorset, 1427-8, 1434-5, 1440-1, 1446-7, 1450-1, by his 1st wife, Margaret, daughter of William Stourton, Knt. He was born about 1438 (aged 40 and more in 1478). John Carent, Esq., died shortly before 11 July 1483.
The marriage of Margaret Langford and John Carent is proven by Cal. of Close Rolls, 1468-1476 (1953): 342. For additional information on John Carent, see History of the Noble House of Stourton (1899): 160.
Following John Carent's death, Margaret Langford married (3rd) (as his 2nd wife) William Twynyho (or Twyneho), of Moor Crichel, Dorset, Burgess (M.P.) for Weymouth, 1472-5 [see Wedgwood Hist. of Parl. 1 (1936): 887-888]. William Twynyho died 17 Jan. 1497. The inquisition post mortem for William Twynyho is published in Cal. Inq. Post Mortem Henry VII, 2 (1915): 43-44, which may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.31158011234019;view=1up;seq=58
As Karen Sims has kindly noted, Margaret Langford left a bequest in her will dated 1500 to "the house of Carant Abbey where I am a sister." This bequest does not mean that Margaret Langford was a nun at her death. Rather, Margaret was merely granted letters of fraternity by Tarrant Abbey, Dorset. As such, she would simply be a honorary sister of that religious house.
As for Margaret Langford's father, Edward Langford, Esq., he is believed to be the "cousin Langforth" mentioned in a letter of Joan Stonor dated 1463 [see Kingsford, Stonor Letters and Papers 1290-1483 1 (Camden Soc. 3rd Ser. 29) (1919): 62-63; Stonor, Stonor (1952): 131]. Joan Stonor was the illegitimate daughter of William de la Pole, Duke of Suffolk. The exact relationship between these parties has not been determined.
I might note that Margaret Langford's daughter is correctly called Sanche in her will. The form Sancha in this period is Latin and should be avoided. The name Sanche is derived from Margaret Langford's ancestress, Sanche (or Sancha) de Ayala, wife of Walter Blount, Knt.
Lastly, I might note that Margaret Langford's younger sister, Alice Langford, married (1st) in 1468 John Stradling [born c.1449, died 1471], of Dauntsey, Bremilham, and Marden, Wiltshire; and (2nd) Richard Pole, K.G. [died 1504], of Isleworth, Middlesex, London, and Ellesborough and Medmenham, Buckinghamshire, Esquire of the Body to Kings Richard III and Henry VII, Knight of the Body to King Henry VII. Following Alice Langford's death, Sir Richard Pole married (2nd) in 1487 Margaret Plantagenet [died 1541], Countess of Salsibury, Governess of Princess Mary Tudor, daughter of George Plantagenet, K.G., K.B., Duke of Clarence, Lord of Richmond, by Isabel, elder daughter and co-heiress of Richard Neville, K.G., Earl of Warwick and Salisbury. For further details on Alice (Langford) (Stradling) Pole and her descendants, please see my book, Royal Ancestry [5 volume set], published in 2013.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
In answer to your post, I can attest that Margaret Langford, wife of Nicholas Carew, Esq., was the daughter of Edward Langford, Esq., of Bradfield, Berkshire and Langley and Minsdenbury (both in Hitchin), Hertfordshire, by Sanche, daughter of Thomas Blount, Knt.
Margaret Langford married (1st) in or before 1454 Nicholas Carew, Esq., of Beddington, Surrey. Their marriage and Margaret's parentage is proven by a settlement dated 1454, by which her husband, Nicholas Carew's father, also Nicholas Carew, Esq., settled the manor of Great Purley, Berkshire on himself for life, with reversion to his son, Nicholas, and his wife, Margaret, "the daughter of Edward Langford." See VCH Berkshire 3 (1923): 417-422, which may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=43236&strquery=Purley
VCH Berkshire in turn cites as its source for the settlement the following record:
Feet of F. Berks. 32 Hen. VI, no. 1.
Nicholas Carew and his wife, Margaret Langford, had one son, Nicholas, and three daughters, Sanche (wife of John Iwardby/Ewerby), Anne (wife of Christopher Tropenell), and Elizabeth (wife of Walter Twynyho).
Following Nicholas Carew's death in 1466, Margaret Langford married (2nd) before 1474 (as his 2nd wife) John Carent, Esq., of Ash in Stour-Pain, Dorset, Toomer (in Henstridge), Somerset, etc., Knight of the Shire for Dorset, 1453-4, Sheriff of Somerset and Dorset, 1459-60, son and heir of William Carent, Esq., of Toomer (in Henstridge), Somerset, Knight of the Shire for Dorset, 1420, 1426-7, Knight of the Shire for Somerset, 1423, 1445, 1450, Sheriff of Somerset and Dorset, 1427-8, 1434-5, 1440-1, 1446-7, 1450-1, by his 1st wife, Margaret, daughter of William Stourton, Knt. He was born about 1438 (aged 40 and more in 1478). John Carent, Esq., died shortly before 11 July 1483.
The marriage of Margaret Langford and John Carent is proven by Cal. of Close Rolls, 1468-1476 (1953): 342. For additional information on John Carent, see History of the Noble House of Stourton (1899): 160.
Following John Carent's death, Margaret Langford married (3rd) (as his 2nd wife) William Twynyho (or Twyneho), of Moor Crichel, Dorset, Burgess (M.P.) for Weymouth, 1472-5 [see Wedgwood Hist. of Parl. 1 (1936): 887-888]. William Twynyho died 17 Jan. 1497. The inquisition post mortem for William Twynyho is published in Cal. Inq. Post Mortem Henry VII, 2 (1915): 43-44, which may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.31158011234019;view=1up;seq=58
As Karen Sims has kindly noted, Margaret Langford left a bequest in her will dated 1500 to "the house of Carant Abbey where I am a sister." This bequest does not mean that Margaret Langford was a nun at her death. Rather, Margaret was merely granted letters of fraternity by Tarrant Abbey, Dorset. As such, she would simply be a honorary sister of that religious house.
As for Margaret Langford's father, Edward Langford, Esq., he is believed to be the "cousin Langforth" mentioned in a letter of Joan Stonor dated 1463 [see Kingsford, Stonor Letters and Papers 1290-1483 1 (Camden Soc. 3rd Ser. 29) (1919): 62-63; Stonor, Stonor (1952): 131]. Joan Stonor was the illegitimate daughter of William de la Pole, Duke of Suffolk. The exact relationship between these parties has not been determined.
I might note that Margaret Langford's daughter is correctly called Sanche in her will. The form Sancha in this period is Latin and should be avoided. The name Sanche is derived from Margaret Langford's ancestress, Sanche (or Sancha) de Ayala, wife of Walter Blount, Knt.
Lastly, I might note that Margaret Langford's younger sister, Alice Langford, married (1st) in 1468 John Stradling [born c.1449, died 1471], of Dauntsey, Bremilham, and Marden, Wiltshire; and (2nd) Richard Pole, K.G. [died 1504], of Isleworth, Middlesex, London, and Ellesborough and Medmenham, Buckinghamshire, Esquire of the Body to Kings Richard III and Henry VII, Knight of the Body to King Henry VII. Following Alice Langford's death, Sir Richard Pole married (2nd) in 1487 Margaret Plantagenet [died 1541], Countess of Salsibury, Governess of Princess Mary Tudor, daughter of George Plantagenet, K.G., K.B., Duke of Clarence, Lord of Richmond, by Isabel, elder daughter and co-heiress of Richard Neville, K.G., Earl of Warwick and Salisbury. For further details on Alice (Langford) (Stradling) Pole and her descendants, please see my book, Royal Ancestry [5 volume set], published in 2013.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Patrick Nielsen Hayden
Jul 30, 2014, 11:13:54 PM7/30/14
to
On 2014-07-27 21:51:43 +0000, pj.evans said:
> There was certainly a Margaret Twyniho who was abbess at Shaftesbury
searching, I should have been able to tease this fact out:
"An inventory of the muniments of Shaftesbury abbey was begun in the
year 1500, under the auspices of Abbess Margery Twynyho (1496-1505),
and was completed a few years later; it survives as BL Egerton 3098
(Davis 887), described by Bell, 'Register of Deeds from Shaftesbury
Abbey'. The account of the background to the compilation of the
inventory, given in the preface (trans. ibid., pp. 19-20), is most
instructive. Abbess Margery was fearful that the abbey's ability to
defend its rights and privileges was compromised by the haphazard state
of the muniments: 'for all the liberties, privileges, and muniments of
this aforesaid noble monastery had been preserved in the treasury not
arranged by manors, according to their order as it is clearly shown
below, but very confusedly, in diverse chests and boxes, in such manner
that if search had to be made for any liberty, privilege, or muniment,
great or small, which was required for the good of the monastery, none
knew for certain whether any such muniment could be produced or no,
and, if it could, in which chest or box it was to be found...'
Eventually the abbess took advice from her brother, Christopher Twynyho
(the abbey’s steward), and employed Alexander Katour (sacristan) to
re-organize the contents of all the chests and boxes, and to compile a
register of them. The inventory does not appear to include any of the
documents transcribed in Harley 61; it would seem to follow that the
originals of many of the abbey's charters had been lost or destroyed by
the end of the fifteenth century, though of course it is possible that
Katour had chosen to restrict himself to certain categories of
documents, leaving others aside."
[From "Shaftesbury", on "Kemble - The Anglo-Saxon Charters Website", at
www.kemble.asnc.cam.ac.uk/node/115.]
> There was certainly a Margaret Twyniho who was abbess at Shaftesbury
> from sometime in 1496 until her death in 1505. She seems to have been a
> Twyniho by birth, which would rule out her being Margaret Langford.
Thank you for this. You're right, and if I'd been more clever with web
> Twyniho by birth, which would rule out her being Margaret Langford.
searching, I should have been able to tease this fact out:
"An inventory of the muniments of Shaftesbury abbey was begun in the
year 1500, under the auspices of Abbess Margery Twynyho (1496-1505),
and was completed a few years later; it survives as BL Egerton 3098
(Davis 887), described by Bell, 'Register of Deeds from Shaftesbury
Abbey'. The account of the background to the compilation of the
inventory, given in the preface (trans. ibid., pp. 19-20), is most
instructive. Abbess Margery was fearful that the abbey's ability to
defend its rights and privileges was compromised by the haphazard state
of the muniments: 'for all the liberties, privileges, and muniments of
this aforesaid noble monastery had been preserved in the treasury not
arranged by manors, according to their order as it is clearly shown
below, but very confusedly, in diverse chests and boxes, in such manner
that if search had to be made for any liberty, privilege, or muniment,
great or small, which was required for the good of the monastery, none
knew for certain whether any such muniment could be produced or no,
and, if it could, in which chest or box it was to be found...'
Eventually the abbess took advice from her brother, Christopher Twynyho
(the abbey’s steward), and employed Alexander Katour (sacristan) to
re-organize the contents of all the chests and boxes, and to compile a
register of them. The inventory does not appear to include any of the
documents transcribed in Harley 61; it would seem to follow that the
originals of many of the abbey's charters had been lost or destroyed by
the end of the fifteenth century, though of course it is possible that
Katour had chosen to restrict himself to certain categories of
documents, leaving others aside."
[From "Shaftesbury", on "Kemble - The Anglo-Saxon Charters Website", at
www.kemble.asnc.cam.ac.uk/node/115.]
Patrick Nielsen Hayden
Jul 30, 2014, 11:23:41 PM7/30/14
to
On 2014-07-28 07:59:06 +0000, karen sims via said:
> Here's that abstract of Margaret's will. She is at "Carant Abbey", so not
> the Abbess of Shaftsbury
[stuff snipped]
> Here's that abstract of Margaret's will. She is at "Carant Abbey", so not
> the Abbess of Shaftsbury
> to Elizabeth Twynyhoo my daughter and Margaret her daughter,
> to Cecill sometyme the wife of my sonne William Twynyhoo a grete fiatt
> bolle of sylver and gilt w' a cover, (which was her faders) after her
> decesse the said bolle to remayne to the daughter of William Adams late hir
Thank you _very_ much for providing this transcript. If you'll forgive
a neophyte's question, would it be normal for a will in this time and
place to refer to a spouse's offspring by previous spouses as "my
daughter" or "my son"? I'm guessing yes, because from the timing given
elsewhere in this thread by Douglas Richardson, Margaret Langford would
have to have been around fifty when she married William Twynyho as her
third husband, far too old for these individuals named in her will to
be what we moderns would consider "her" children. But I'm a newcomer to
all this and I may well be misunderstanding.
Patrick Nielsen Hayden
Jul 31, 2014, 12:08:03 AM7/31/14
to
On 2014-07-28 16:29:39 +0000, Douglas Richardson said:
> Dear Patrick ~
>
> In answer to your post, I can attest that Margaret Langford, wife of
> Nicholas Carew, Esq., was the daughter of Edward Langford, Esq., of
> Bradfield, Berkshire and Langley and Minsdenbury (both in Hitchin),
> Hertfordshire, by Sanche, daughter of Thomas Blount, Knt.
Thank you very much for this _extremely_ informative response!
> Dear Patrick ~
>
> In answer to your post, I can attest that Margaret Langford, wife of
> Nicholas Carew, Esq., was the daughter of Edward Langford, Esq., of
> Bradfield, Berkshire and Langley and Minsdenbury (both in Hitchin),
> Hertfordshire, by Sanche, daughter of Thomas Blount, Knt.
> As Karen Sims has kindly noted, Margaret Langford left a bequest in her
> will dated 1500 to "the house of Carant Abbey where I am a sister."
> This bequest does not mean that Margaret Langford was a nun at her
> death. Rather, Margaret was merely granted letters of fraternity by
> Tarrant Abbey, Dorset. As such, she would simply be a honorary sister
> of that religious house.
> I might note that Margaret Langford's daughter is correctly called
> Sanche in her will. The form Sancha in this period is Latin and should
> be avoided. The name Sanche is derived from Margaret Langford's
> ancestress, Sanche (or Sancha) de Ayala, wife of Walter Blount, Knt.
Margaret's daughter's name was also spelled Saynche in some other,
earlier record. I do tend to agree with you that, to the extent that
it's practical, we should try to talk about these people from long ago
with the names they actually used for themselves. (If nothing else,
because between one thing and another, your average
historically-recorded medieval individual usually already has about a
half dozen names; they don't need us providing them with even more.)
> Lastly, I might note that Margaret Langford's younger sister, Alice
> Langford, married (1st) in 1468 John Stradling [born c.1449, died
> 1471], of Dauntsey, Bremilham, and Marden, Wiltshire; and (2nd) Richard
> Pole, K.G. [died 1504], of Isleworth, Middlesex, London, and
> Ellesborough and Medmenham, Buckinghamshire, Esquire of the Body to
> Kings Richard III and Henry VII, Knight of the Body to King Henry VII.
> Following Alice Langford's death, Sir Richard Pole married (2nd) in
> 1487 Margaret Plantagenet [died 1541], Countess of Salsibury, Governess
> of Princess Mary Tudor, daughter of George Plantagenet, K.G., K.B.,
> Duke of Clarence, Lord of Richmond, by Isabel, elder daughter and
> co-heiress of Richard Neville, K.G., Earl of Warwick and Salisbury.
> For further details on Alice (Langford) (Stradling) Pole and her
> descendants, please see my book, Royal Ancestry [5 volume set],
> published in 2013.
married a man who, after she died, married the daughter of the guy who
had Margaret Langford's third husband's mother judicially murdered.
Small world, fifteenth-century England.
T.L. Hiatt
Dec 12, 2021, 3:00:48 PM12/12/21
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