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Genealogics Additions: Additional Edward I Descents for Princess Diana thru Edward Paston (1550-1630)
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Brad Verity
Sep 9, 2012, 7:48:48 PM9/9/12
to
Edward Paston of Appleton Hall (1550-1630), in addition to his descent
from Edward III (given in a previous post), has 4 lines of descent
from Edward I thru his mother, and one probable 12-generation line of
descent from Edward I thru his father, as so
Edward I had
A1) Joan of Acre (1272-1307) m. 1) Gilbert de Clare, 6th Earl of
Gloucester (1243-1295), and had 2 daus A2 & 2 (see below)
A2) Eleanor de Clare (1292-1337) m. 1) Hugh Despenser 'The Younger' (c.
1289-1326), and had a son A3 & a dau B3 (see below)
A3) Sir Edward Despenser of Essendine (c.1311-1342) m. Anne Ferrers (c.
1315-1367), and had
A4) Edward, 4th Lord Despenser (1336-1375) m. Elizabeth Burghersh
(1342-1409), and had
A5) Anne Despenser (c.1363-1426) m. 1) Sir Hugh Hastings of Elsing (by
1355-1386), and had
A6) Margaret Hastings (b. c.1384) m. Gilbert Debenham of Little Wenham
(d. 1449), and had
A7) Gilbert Debenham of Little Wenham (c.1405-1481) m. Elizabeth
Holbrook, and had
A8) Elizabeth Debenham (c.1437-1503) m. Sir Thomas Brewes of Stinton
Hall (c.1406-1482), and had
A9) Margery Brewes (c.1457-1495) m. Sir John Paston of Paston
(1444-1504), and had
A10) Sir William Paston of Paston (c.1479-1554) m. Bridget Heydon (c.
1480-1554), and had
A11) Sir Thomas Paston of Binham Priory (by 1517-1550) m. Agnes Leigh
(see B12 below), and had
A12) Edward Paston of Appleton Hall (1550-1630), ancestor of Princess
Diana
B3) Isabel Despenser (c.1313-aft.1356) m. Richard Fitzalan, 3rd Earl
of Arundel (c.1314-1376), and had
B4) Sir Edmund Arundel of Bignor (1327-c.1381) m. Sybil Montagu (c.
1327-aft.1364), and had
B5) Philippa Arundel (c.1352-1399) m. 1) Sir Richard Cergeaux of
Colquite (c.1340-1393), and had
B6) Elizabeth Cergeaux (b. c.1371) m. Sir William Marney of Layer
Marney (c.1370-1414), and had
B7) Anne Marney m. Sir Thomas Tyrrell of Heron Hall (c.1411-1476), and
had
B8) Elizabeth Tyrrell (d. 1508) m. 1) Sir Robert Darcy of Maldon
(1420-1469), and had
B9) Thomas Darcy of Maldon (c.1459-1485) m. Margaret Harleston (see C9
below), and had
B10) Roger Darcy of Maldon (1478-1508) m. Elizabeth Wentworth (see E9
below), and had
B11) Elizabeth Darcy m. Sir John Leigh of Stockwell (see D10 below),
and had
B12) Agnes Leigh m. 1) Sir Thomas Paston of Binham Priory (see A11
above)
C2) Elizabeth de Clare (1295-1360) had 2 daus C3 & D3 (see below)
C3) Elizabeth Damory (1318-by1362) m. John, 3rd Lord Bardolf
(1313-1363), and had
C4) William, 4th Lord Bardolf (1349-1386) m. Agnes Poynings (c.
1351-1403), and had
C5) Cecily Bardolf (c.1382-1432) m. Sir Brian Stapleton of Ingham
(by1379-1438), and had
C6) Anne Stapleton m. Thomas Hethe of Hengrave (d. 1439), and had
C7) Elizabeth Hethe (d. 1454) m. William Bardwell, and had
C8) Margery Bardwell (c.1435-1459) m. John Harleston of Shimpling (c.
1430-1458), and had
C9) Margaret Harleston (c.1458-1489) m. Thomas Darcy of Maldon (see B9
above)
D3) Isabel Verdun (1317-1349) m. Henry Ferrers, 2nd Lord Ferrers of
Groby (1303-1343), and had
D4) William Ferrers, 3rd Lord Ferrers of Groby (1333-1371) m. 1)
Margaret de Ufford (c.1336-c.1365), and had
D5) Henry Ferrers, 4th Lord Ferrers of Groby (1356-1388) m. Joan
Poynings (c.1355-1394), and had
D6) William Ferrers, 5th Lord Ferrers of Groby (1372-1445) m. 1)
Philippa Clifford (b. c.1372), and had
D7) Elizabeth Ferrers m. Sir William Culpepper of Oxen Hoath (d.
1457), and had
D8) Sir Richard Culpepper of Oxen Hoath (c.1430-1484) m. 2) Isabel
Worsley (c.1460-1527), and had
D9) Joyce Culpepper (c.1480-aft.1527) m. 1) Ralph Leigh of Stockwell
(d. 1510), and had
D10) Sir John Leigh of Stockwell (1502-1564) m. Elizabeth Darcy (see
B11 above)
E2) Margaret de Clare (1293-1342) m. 2) Hugh Audley, Earl of
Gloucester (c.1291-1347), and had
E3) Margaret Audley (1321-1349) m. Ralph Stafford, 1st Earl of
Stafford (1301-1372), and had
E4) Beatrice Stafford (c.1345-1415) m. 2) Thomas de Ros, 4th Lord Ros
of Helmsley (1337-1384), and had
E5) Elizabeth de Ros (c.1364-1424) m. Thomas, 6th Lord Clifford (c.
1363-1391), and had
E6) John, 7th Lord Clifford (1388-1422) m. Elizabeth Percy (c.
1395-1437, descended from EdwIII), and had
E7) Mary Clifford (c.1420-by1458) m. Sir Philip Wentworth of
Nettlestead (1424-1464), and had
E8) Sir Henry Wentworth of Nettlestead (1448-1499) m. 1) Anne Say (c.
1448-aft.1489), and had
E9) Elizabeth Wentworth (c.1482-aft.1545) m. 1) Roger Darcy of Maldon
(see B10 above)
The A line of descent from Edward I above (thru the Pastons) I call
probable only, because it is my speculation, based on the fact that
Elizabeth (Debenham) Brewes stated in one of the Paston Letters that
she was related to the Hastings family of Elsing:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.genealogy.medieval/msg/085b56968e80bc95?hl=en
Rosie Bevan in the above 2002 post had Elizabeth Debenham as great-
granddaughter of Sir Edward Hastings of Elsing (1382-1438, son of
Generation A5 above), but this appears impossible chronologically
(given the currently held construction of the Debenham pedigree), and
instead she was probably instead the great-granddaughter of Sir
Edward's parents, Sir Hugh Hastings & Anne Despenser.
Cheers, ------Brad
from Edward III (given in a previous post), has 4 lines of descent
from Edward I thru his mother, and one probable 12-generation line of
descent from Edward I thru his father, as so
Edward I had
A1) Joan of Acre (1272-1307) m. 1) Gilbert de Clare, 6th Earl of
Gloucester (1243-1295), and had 2 daus A2 & 2 (see below)
A2) Eleanor de Clare (1292-1337) m. 1) Hugh Despenser 'The Younger' (c.
1289-1326), and had a son A3 & a dau B3 (see below)
A3) Sir Edward Despenser of Essendine (c.1311-1342) m. Anne Ferrers (c.
1315-1367), and had
A4) Edward, 4th Lord Despenser (1336-1375) m. Elizabeth Burghersh
(1342-1409), and had
A5) Anne Despenser (c.1363-1426) m. 1) Sir Hugh Hastings of Elsing (by
1355-1386), and had
A6) Margaret Hastings (b. c.1384) m. Gilbert Debenham of Little Wenham
(d. 1449), and had
A7) Gilbert Debenham of Little Wenham (c.1405-1481) m. Elizabeth
Holbrook, and had
A8) Elizabeth Debenham (c.1437-1503) m. Sir Thomas Brewes of Stinton
Hall (c.1406-1482), and had
A9) Margery Brewes (c.1457-1495) m. Sir John Paston of Paston
(1444-1504), and had
A10) Sir William Paston of Paston (c.1479-1554) m. Bridget Heydon (c.
1480-1554), and had
A11) Sir Thomas Paston of Binham Priory (by 1517-1550) m. Agnes Leigh
(see B12 below), and had
A12) Edward Paston of Appleton Hall (1550-1630), ancestor of Princess
Diana
B3) Isabel Despenser (c.1313-aft.1356) m. Richard Fitzalan, 3rd Earl
of Arundel (c.1314-1376), and had
B4) Sir Edmund Arundel of Bignor (1327-c.1381) m. Sybil Montagu (c.
1327-aft.1364), and had
B5) Philippa Arundel (c.1352-1399) m. 1) Sir Richard Cergeaux of
Colquite (c.1340-1393), and had
B6) Elizabeth Cergeaux (b. c.1371) m. Sir William Marney of Layer
Marney (c.1370-1414), and had
B7) Anne Marney m. Sir Thomas Tyrrell of Heron Hall (c.1411-1476), and
had
B8) Elizabeth Tyrrell (d. 1508) m. 1) Sir Robert Darcy of Maldon
(1420-1469), and had
B9) Thomas Darcy of Maldon (c.1459-1485) m. Margaret Harleston (see C9
below), and had
B10) Roger Darcy of Maldon (1478-1508) m. Elizabeth Wentworth (see E9
below), and had
B11) Elizabeth Darcy m. Sir John Leigh of Stockwell (see D10 below),
and had
B12) Agnes Leigh m. 1) Sir Thomas Paston of Binham Priory (see A11
above)
C2) Elizabeth de Clare (1295-1360) had 2 daus C3 & D3 (see below)
C3) Elizabeth Damory (1318-by1362) m. John, 3rd Lord Bardolf
(1313-1363), and had
C4) William, 4th Lord Bardolf (1349-1386) m. Agnes Poynings (c.
1351-1403), and had
C5) Cecily Bardolf (c.1382-1432) m. Sir Brian Stapleton of Ingham
(by1379-1438), and had
C6) Anne Stapleton m. Thomas Hethe of Hengrave (d. 1439), and had
C7) Elizabeth Hethe (d. 1454) m. William Bardwell, and had
C8) Margery Bardwell (c.1435-1459) m. John Harleston of Shimpling (c.
1430-1458), and had
C9) Margaret Harleston (c.1458-1489) m. Thomas Darcy of Maldon (see B9
above)
D3) Isabel Verdun (1317-1349) m. Henry Ferrers, 2nd Lord Ferrers of
Groby (1303-1343), and had
D4) William Ferrers, 3rd Lord Ferrers of Groby (1333-1371) m. 1)
Margaret de Ufford (c.1336-c.1365), and had
D5) Henry Ferrers, 4th Lord Ferrers of Groby (1356-1388) m. Joan
Poynings (c.1355-1394), and had
D6) William Ferrers, 5th Lord Ferrers of Groby (1372-1445) m. 1)
Philippa Clifford (b. c.1372), and had
D7) Elizabeth Ferrers m. Sir William Culpepper of Oxen Hoath (d.
1457), and had
D8) Sir Richard Culpepper of Oxen Hoath (c.1430-1484) m. 2) Isabel
Worsley (c.1460-1527), and had
D9) Joyce Culpepper (c.1480-aft.1527) m. 1) Ralph Leigh of Stockwell
(d. 1510), and had
D10) Sir John Leigh of Stockwell (1502-1564) m. Elizabeth Darcy (see
B11 above)
E2) Margaret de Clare (1293-1342) m. 2) Hugh Audley, Earl of
Gloucester (c.1291-1347), and had
E3) Margaret Audley (1321-1349) m. Ralph Stafford, 1st Earl of
Stafford (1301-1372), and had
E4) Beatrice Stafford (c.1345-1415) m. 2) Thomas de Ros, 4th Lord Ros
of Helmsley (1337-1384), and had
E5) Elizabeth de Ros (c.1364-1424) m. Thomas, 6th Lord Clifford (c.
1363-1391), and had
E6) John, 7th Lord Clifford (1388-1422) m. Elizabeth Percy (c.
1395-1437, descended from EdwIII), and had
E7) Mary Clifford (c.1420-by1458) m. Sir Philip Wentworth of
Nettlestead (1424-1464), and had
E8) Sir Henry Wentworth of Nettlestead (1448-1499) m. 1) Anne Say (c.
1448-aft.1489), and had
E9) Elizabeth Wentworth (c.1482-aft.1545) m. 1) Roger Darcy of Maldon
(see B10 above)
The A line of descent from Edward I above (thru the Pastons) I call
probable only, because it is my speculation, based on the fact that
Elizabeth (Debenham) Brewes stated in one of the Paston Letters that
she was related to the Hastings family of Elsing:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.genealogy.medieval/msg/085b56968e80bc95?hl=en
Rosie Bevan in the above 2002 post had Elizabeth Debenham as great-
granddaughter of Sir Edward Hastings of Elsing (1382-1438, son of
Generation A5 above), but this appears impossible chronologically
(given the currently held construction of the Debenham pedigree), and
instead she was probably instead the great-granddaughter of Sir
Edward's parents, Sir Hugh Hastings & Anne Despenser.
Cheers, ------Brad
Brad Verity
Sep 10, 2012, 1:41:25 AM9/10/12
to
On Sep 9, 4:48 pm, Brad Verity <royaldesc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Rosie Bevan in the above 2002 post had Elizabeth Debenham as great-
> granddaughter of Sir Edward Hastings of Elsing (1382-1438, son of
> Generation A5 above), but this appears impossible chronologically
> (given the currently held construction of the Debenham pedigree), and
> instead she was probably instead the great-granddaughter of Sir
> Edward's parents, Sir Hugh Hastings & Anne Despenser.
Hal Bradley offlist brought my attention to a passage in Copinger's
> Rosie Bevan in the above 2002 post had Elizabeth Debenham as great-
> granddaughter of Sir Edward Hastings of Elsing (1382-1438, son of
> Generation A5 above), but this appears impossible chronologically
> (given the currently held construction of the Debenham pedigree), and
> instead she was probably instead the great-granddaughter of Sir
> Edward's parents, Sir Hugh Hastings & Anne Despenser.
'Manors of Suffolk' that I had not been aware of:
"In 1432 the manor [Wenham Parva, but also Vaux - see page 114 in the
same volume] was vested in Sir Edward Hastings and William Pers or
Parson, of Otley, for by a deed dated at Westminster 1st June, 10 Hen.
VI, they conveyed it to Gilbert Debenham and Margaret his wife,
daughter of Sir Edward Hastings, of Gressenhall, co. Norfolk, Knt.
(Add. Ch. 25259), and the assurance was fortified by a fine levied of
the manor the following year by the said Gilbert Debenham and Margaret
his wife against this Sir Edward Hastings and William Parson (Feet of
Fines, 11 Hen. VI. 28)."
http://archive.org/stream/manorsofsuffolkn06copiuoft#page/110/mode/2up
Presuming Copinger read the original fine correctly and it did indeed
state that Margaret was Sir Edward's daughter, then we have proof of
that relationship. Indeed the 1432 Fine has every appearance of being
a marriage settlement. But the scenario that Copinger, Wedgwood in
his HOP bios of Gilbert Debenham (d. 1481) & Sir Gilbert Debenham (d.
1500), and Rosie Bevan (and John Ravilious?) in 2002, assumed - that
Margaret Hastings married the Gilbert Debenham who died in 1449 and
was the grandmother of Elizabeth Debenham Brewes - is chronologically
impossible. Elizabeth Debenham was born by 1440 at the latest, for
she herself was married to Sir Thomas Brewes by 1456 & a mother within
a couple years of that. Also, in Rosie's 2002 post she has Margaret
the daughter of Sir Edward Hastings by his 2nd wife Margery Clifton,
even more impossible chronologically.
But if Margaret was the daughter of Sir Edward's first marriage, then,
yes, being a grandmother in 1457-60 is possible.
It would mean, though, that she would have to have been the mother of
the knighted Sir Gilbert Debenham (d. 1500) and his sister and heir
Elizabeth Debenham Brewes (d. 1503), and so married to the Gilbert
Debenham who died in 1481. This actually fits with Elizabeth Debenham
Brewes referring to Sir John Hastings as her uncle in the Paston
Letters.
Wedgwood would then be incorrect about Elizabeth Holbrook being their
mother. The only information I could find on Elizabeth or her father,
said by Wedgwood to have been Sir Thomas Holbrook, is that Gilbert
Debenham was claiming Tattingstone, a former Holbrook manor, in the
early 1460s:
http://books.google.ca/books?id=_Q7S0PcbPN4C&pg=PA55&lpg=PA55&dq=Elizabeth+Holbrook+Debenham&source=bl&ots=pXm0zeQakl&sig=9G9zhpi81asrVCNntRuG5JdsaUY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3XNNULaxBsnriQKz8IHYCg&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Elizabeth%20Holbrook%20Debenham&f=false
Perhaps Elizabeth Holbrook was instead the wife of the Gilbert
Debenham who died in 1449? Or she may have been a first wife of the
Gilbert who died in 1481, prior to his 1432 marriage to Margaret
Hastings? At any rate, the 1432 Fine and Elizabeth Debenham Brewes's
referral of Sir John Hastings as her "uncle", necessarily removes this
unsupported Elizabeth Holbrook from the picture. I'm revising the
original A line of descent as follows:
Edward I had
A1) Joan of Acre (1272-1307) m. 1) Gilbert de Clare, 6th Earl of
Gloucester (1243-1295), and had 2 daus A2 & 2 (see below)
A2) Eleanor de Clare (1292-1337) m. 1) Hugh Despenser 'The Younger' (c.
1289-1326), and had a son A3 & a dau B3 (see below)
A3) Sir Edward Despenser of Essendine (c.1311-1342) m. Anne Ferrers (c.
1315-1367), and had
A4) Edward, 4th Lord Despenser (1336-1375) m. Elizabeth Burghersh
(1342-1409), and had
A5) Anne Despenser (c.1363-1426) m. 1) Sir Hugh Hastings of Elsing (by
1355-1386), and had
1390-by1420, descended from Edward I - see below), and had
A7) Margaret Hastings (b. c.1415) m. Gilbert Debenham of Little Wenham
(c.1405-1481), and had
A8) Elizabeth Debenham (c.1437-1503) m. Sir Thomas Brewes of Stinton
Hall (c.1406-1482), and had
A9) Margery Brewes (c.1457-1495) m. Sir John Paston of Paston
(1444-1504), and had
A10) Sir William Paston of Paston (c.1479-1554) m. Bridget Heydon (c.
1480-1554), and had
A11) Sir Thomas Paston of Binham Priory (by 1517-1550) m. Agnes Leigh
(see B12 below), and had
A12) Edward Paston of Appleton Hall (1550-1630), ancestor of Princess
Diana
This provides Edward Paston of Appleton Hall with one additional
Hall (c.1406-1482), and had
A9) Margery Brewes (c.1457-1495) m. Sir John Paston of Paston
(1444-1504), and had
A10) Sir William Paston of Paston (c.1479-1554) m. Bridget Heydon (c.
1480-1554), and had
A11) Sir Thomas Paston of Binham Priory (by 1517-1550) m. Agnes Leigh
(see B12 below), and had
A12) Edward Paston of Appleton Hall (1550-1630), ancestor of Princess
Diana
Edward I descent:
1) Joan of Acre (1272-1307) m. 2) Ralph, 1st Lord Monthermer (c.
1262-1325), and had
2) Thomas, 2nd Lord Monthermer (1301-1340) m. Margaret de Braose (c.
1303-1349), and had
3) Margaret, 3rd Lady Monthermer (1329-1395) m. John, 1st Lord Montagu
(c.1329-1390), and had
4) Eleanor Montagu (c.1364-1394) m. John, 5th Lord Dinham (c.
1359-1428), and had
5) Muriel Dinham (c.1390-by1420) m. Sir Edward Hastings of Elsing (see
A6 above)
Many thanks to Hal for bringing Copinger & the 1432 Fine to my
attention.
Cheers, --------Brad
John Higgins
Sep 10, 2012, 6:51:50 PM9/10/12
to
Manors of Suffolk. It's interesting that the same section also
mentions the family of Holbrook, apparently in the same locality.
There is a bit more on the Debenhams in vol. 2 of Copinger - see p.
285 here: http://archive.org/details/manorsofsuffolkn02copiuoft.
There were apparently five Gilbert Debenhams in a row, but Copinger
unfortunately gives the name of only one of their wives.
I also came across this item in the FHL catalog, which I'm now trying
to obtain through my library:
https://familysearch.org/eng/library/fhlcatalog/supermainframeset.asp?display=titledetails&titleno=130076
Brad Verity
Sep 10, 2012, 11:58:38 PM9/10/12
to
On Sep 10, 3:51 pm, John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> The excerpt provided by Hal Bradley is from vol. 6 of Copinger's
> Manors of Suffolk. It's interesting that the same section also
> mentions the family of Holbrook, apparently in the same locality.
> There is a bit more on the Debenhams in vol. 2 of Copinger - see p.
> 285 here:http://archive.org/details/manorsofsuffolkn02copiuoft.
> There were apparently five Gilbert Debenhams in a row, but Copinger
> unfortunately gives the name of only one of their wives.
Thanks for this other Copinger reference, John. The more I encounter
> The excerpt provided by Hal Bradley is from vol. 6 of Copinger's
> Manors of Suffolk. It's interesting that the same section also
> mentions the family of Holbrook, apparently in the same locality.
> There is a bit more on the Debenhams in vol. 2 of Copinger - see p.
> 285 here:http://archive.org/details/manorsofsuffolkn02copiuoft.
> There were apparently five Gilbert Debenhams in a row, but Copinger
> unfortunately gives the name of only one of their wives.
the Holbrooks, they seem much more a family from the 14th-century than
the 15th one, and I have a stronger feeling that Elizabeth Holbrook
was the spouse of an earlier Gilbert Debenham, either #1, #2, or #3,
and not the one who died in 1481 (#4).
> I also came across this item in the FHL catalog, which I'm now trying
That's great! Even if it doesn't sort out the Debenham spouses
properly, it may have original documents that can help with chronology
and provide clues.
Thanks & Cheers, -----Brad
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