Playce of Newton by Wintringham

[John Watson]

Dear all,

Yesterday I posted a source for on the date of death of Sir William de Aton. The inquisition post mortem where I found the death date of Sir William was part of a series of inquisitions for Sir Thomas Playce, knight, of Newton by Wintringham, Yorkshire. These ipms have helped me to identify the dates when some of the family died.
Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, vol. 16, 7-15 Richard II (1974), 2-5, No. 5-7.
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.31158009518308;view=1up;seq=50

One of the problems in putting together a pedigree of the Playce family is that Sir William Playce, who died before 10 December 1369 outlived his son Thomas, his grandson William and was succeeded by his great-grandson William.

The outline pedigree looks like this:

1. Sir William Playce, born about 1295, married before 9 Feb 1319, Alice de Nowers, daughter of Ralph de Nowers by Letice de Preston and widow of Sir Gilbert Hansard (d. before Sep 1316). Alice was living in 1356. He died shortly before 10 September 1369.

2. Sir Thomas Playce, born about 1319, married Joan de Sigston, daughter of Sir John de Sigston (d. bef. 1312) of Kirby Sigston, Yorkshire by Joan Maunsell. They had three children; John, d.s.p., Margaret who married Sir John de Sywardby, and William. Thomas Playce died about 1351.

3. Sir William Playce, born about 1340, married Elizabeth de Aton, daughter of William de Aton (d. 13 Aug 1387) by Isabel de Percy. They had one son, William. William Playce died about 1363. Elizabeth died before 8 May 1402.

4. Sir William Playce, born about 1362, married Margaret de Dagworth (born about 1360), daughter of Sir John de Dagworth (d. 16 Aug 1360) by Thomasia (d. 20 Jul 1409), later the wife of William de Furnival. They had one daughter Elizabeth. William died 3 May 1387 (ipm), Margaret died before 25 August 1400.

5. Elizabeth Playce, born about 1381, married unknown Hastings and died s.p. before 1432.

Regards,

John

[Steve Riggan via]

John, when was the de Playce marriage for Elizabeth de Aton?. In Leo's site, it is not listed except her marriage toJohn Conyers which must have been her second. http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00613445&tree=LEO
Steve Riggan



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> Subject: Playce of Newton by Wintringham
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[John Watson]

Hi Steve,

A good question. When I was busy working out the death dates for the Playce family members from the information given in the ipm, I failed to check the estimated birth dates for their wives.

Complete Peerage, vol. 1, 326, says that Elizabeth Aton married firstly Sir William Playce and secondly Sir John Conyers of Sockburn. No source is given for her first marriage. In fact I am now having serious doubts as to whether there actually was a marriage between Elizabeth Aton and Sir William Playce. If it happened it must have been his second marriage and when Elizabeth was very young.

Elizabeth's age is given as "over 23 years" in the ipm of 1388. But this would have to be a considerable underestimate for her to have been the mother of the last William Playce. He was born about 1360-62 (aged 22 years and more in 1384). When he died on 3 May 1387, he left a daughter aged 7. If Elizabeth Aton was the mother of this last William Playce, then she would have been a grandmother before she was 20.

The outline pedigree now looks like this:

1. Sir William Playce, born about 1295, married before 9 Feb 1319, Alice de Nowers, daughter of Ralph de Nowers by Letice de Preston and widow of Sir Gilbert Hansard (d. before Sep 1316). Alice was living in 1356. He died shortly before 10 September 1369.

2. Sir Thomas Playce, born about 1319, married Joan de Sigston, daughter of Sir John de Sigston (d. bef. 1312) of Kirby Sigston, Yorkshire by Joan Maunsell. They had three children; John, d.s.p., Margaret who married Sir John de Sywardby, and William. Thomas Playce died about 1351.

3. Sir William Playce, born about 1340, married unknown. They had one son, William. William Playce died about 1363.

4. Sir William Playce, born about 1360-62, married Margaret de Dagworth (born about 1360), daughter of Sir John de Dagworth (d. 16 Aug 1360) by Thomasia (d. 20 Jul 1409), later the wife of William de Furnival. They had one daughter Elizabeth. William died 3 May 1387 (ipm), Margaret died before 25 August 1400.

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear John ~

Ages in inquisitions can be quite unreliable.

As far as it goes, I can state that Elizabeth de Aton definitely married Sir William de Playce, who died before 7 Jan. 1364/4.

Yorkshire Archaeological Journal 12 (1893): 251 contains a document which sheds light on this marriage. It shows the following:

On 7 Jan. 1363/4 Elizabeth's father, Sir William de Aton, reached agreement with Adam Gagg, keeper of the manor of Gristhorpe of a loan of 20 marks; William agreed to give Gagg an acquitance from lady Elizabeth de Playce for the time he was her receiver at Gristhorpe and Lebberston, Yorkshire.

Elizabeth de Aton's parents, Sir William de Aton and his wife, Isabel de Percy, were married before Jan. 1326/7. So a birth date of circa 1340 for Elizabeth de Aton would be quite acceptable.

Given the above, the chronology is perfectly fine for Elizabeth de Aton to be the mother of the younger William de Playce, born about 1362 (aged 22 in 1384) and then be widowed before 7 Jan. 1364/4. Elizabeth married (2nd) before 1371 John de Conyers, Knt., of Sockburn, Durham.

Question: What is your source for the marriage of the younger William de Playce and Margaret de Dagworth?

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

[John Watson]

Dear Douglas,

Yes, I am having second thoughts about my second thoughts after I found this in my notes:
29 September 1385, By a deed dated at Ayton on Michaelmas day, 1385, Sir William de Ayton, knt., conveyed to Sir Ralph Eure, Sir John Conyers, and Sir William Place, knts. his manor of Bardelby on Holme co. York, for their lives, with remainder to the heirs of the said Sir Ralph and Catherine his wife, the heirs of Sir William de Place, knt., son of Sir William Place, knt. deceased, and those of Elizabeth his mother, now the wife of Sir John Conyers
James Raine, ed., Testamenta Eboracensia, vol. III, Surtees Society, 45 (Durham, 1865), 222n.

The sources for Margaret Dagworth are pretty straightforward.

Nicholas Dagworth (aged 26 and more in 1332) married, before 20 September 1334, Margaret (Inq. a. q. d., file 229, no. 12), and died 12 October 1351, leaving a son and heir, John, aged 24 and more (probably "le nepueu Dagorne, fier fu com un liespart," who fought in the Bataille des Trente), who married, before 12 June 1353, Thomasine, and died 16 August 1360, leaving a daughter and heir, Margaret, aged 2 and more in 1363. (Ch. Inq. p. m., Edw. III, file 112, no. 25, file 177, no. 20). Thomasine married, secondly, before 20 January 1366, Sir William de Furnival.
Complete Peerage, vol. 4, 27, note (c).

Inquisition taken at Holme in Rydale, Wednesday after Easter, 11 Richard II [1 April 1388], before Thomas de Etton and Stephen de Herlethorp ... William son of William [Playce] then entered on the lands etc. as his right and inheritance, and received the issues until the Invention of the Holy Cross last [3 May 1387], when he died. He was married by Thomas de Hatfeld, late bishop of Durham, to Margaret daughter of Thomasia de Furnyvall, [by what title] the jurors know not. The marriage was worth 200 marks. Elizabeth [his daughter], aged 7 years, is his heir. She is in the custody of the said Thomasia and Margaret, and her marriage is worth £300.
Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, vol. 16, 7-15 Richard II (1974), 3, No. 6.

26 November 1388, Appointment of John Leek, knight, Thomas de Etton,and William Hesill, to receive Elizabeth, daughter and heir of William, son of William son of Thomas Playce, a minor, who since the said William's death has come into the custody of Thomasia de Furnyvale, and Margaret, her daughter, from the said Thomasia and Margaret, and keep her safe and unmarried, until it is fully determined in the king's court whether the marriage belongs to the king, or to the said Thomasia and Margaret.
Calendar of Patent Rolls, Richard II, Vol 3, 533.

26 January 1390, To the treasurer and the barons of the exchequer. Writ of supersedeas until the octaves of St. John Baptist next in respect of their demand against John Leek knight, Thomas de Etton and William Hesyll to answer for the body of Elizabeth daughter and heir of William son of William son of Thomas Playce, who after her father's death, being within age, came to the ward of Thomasia de Furnyvale and Margaret her daughter, and whose marriage pertains to the king it is said; as by letters patent of 21 November 12 Richard II. the king appointed the said John, Thomas de Etton and William Hesill to receive her in his name, and to keep her in honourable custody, not marrying her, until a plea in the king's court should be debated and determined, whether that marriage ought to pertain to the king or to the said Thomasia and Margaret, or until further order; and the plea is yet pending without debate.
Calendar of Close Rolls, Richard II: vol. 4: 1389-1392 (1922), 152.

Regards,

John

[ericgil...@gmail.com]

Thanks for posting this John. Very informative.
Eric

[Michael Rochester]

Hi John: great information....perchance.....Do you have any further information of the De Nowers/Nodariis family from Ralph as I descend from him?
Search
Select a profile image for (Sir) Ralph deNowers (Nodariis).
(Sir) Ralph deNowers (Nodariis)
1245–1306
Birth ABT 1245 • Knossington, Leicestershire, England
Death BEF 8 APR 1306 • Knossington, Leicestershire, England
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Sir Ralph de Noers (Krasnodar) of Knossington,
Leicestershire and his wife Letice. Letice was a daughter and co-heiress of Sir William de Preston, of Preston-under-Scar, Wensleydale,
Yorkshire and her mother was Agnes daughter of Walter de Thirkleby. Letice had inherited lands in West Bolton, Thirkleby and Preston from her parents.

Ralph de Noers was dead before 8 April 1306, when an agreement was made between Letice, widow of Rauf de Nowers, and Henry le Scrope, on the division of a piece of moor and scrub in West Bolton near the boundary between Little Bolton and West Bolton, which they held in
common, and which Henry claimed as part of the grant made by Beatrice, Letice's sister, to his father, William le Scrope. On the day
following, at Preston in Wensleydale, Gilbert Hansard confirmed the agreement made by his mother-in-law (ma mere en ley) [4].
4. Yorkshire Archaeological Society, Record Series, Vol. 50, Yorkshire
Deeds, Vol. 2 (1914) p. 47, No. 112 & note

Notes can only be viewed by the owner and by those invited to the tree as an “editor”.
Relationship to me

(Sir) Ralph deNowers (Nodariis) 1245-1306
21st great-grandfather
Alice deNowers (Nodariis) 1275-
Daughter of (Sir) Ralph deNowers (Nodariis)
Lettice Hansard 1315-
Daughter of Alice deNowers (Nodariis)
Thomas Layton 1353-
Son of Lettice Hansard
John Layton 1375-1467
Son of Thomas Layton
Robert Layton 1400-1450
Son of John Layton
Thomas Layton 1425-1475
Son of Robert Layton
Lancelot Layton 1450-1518
Son of Thomas Layton
Robert Layton 1480-1531
Son of Lancelot Layton
Thomas Layton 1507-1535
Son of Robert Layton
Thomas Layton 1525-1583
Son of Thomas Layton
Charles Layton 1567-1618
Son of Thomas Layton
(Sir) Thomas Layton 1597-1651
Son of Charles Layton
Catherine Layton 1618-1686
Daughter of (Sir) Thomas Layton
Layton (Laton) Eden Vicar of Hartburn 1645-1735
Son of Catherine Layton
Jane Eden 1710-1798
Daughter of Layton (Laton) Eden Vicar of Hartburn
Margaret Harle 1734-1818
Daughter of Jane Eden
George Eden Meggison 1756-1815
Son of Margaret Harle
Thomas Meggison 1803-1883
Son of George Eden Meggison
Thomas Cuthbert Meggison 1847-1924
Son of Thomas Meggison
Thomas Bernard Meggison 1877-1965
Son of Thomas Cuthbert Meggison
Ernest Joseph Meggison 1914-1995
Son of Thomas Bernard Meggison
Thomas Frederick Meggison 1944-
Son of Ernest Joseph Meggison
Michael Thomas Meggison
You are the son of Thomas Frederick Meggison
Mike

[wjhonson]

On Monday, February 8, 2021 at 6:47:07 PM UTC-8, kingofr...@gmail.com wrote:

> Hi John: great information....perchance.....Do you have any further information of the De Nowers/Nodariis family from Ralph as I descend from him?
> Search
> Select a profile image for (Sir) Ralph deNowers (Nodariis).
> (Sir) Ralph deNowers (Nodariis)
> 1245–1306
> Birth ABT 1245 • Knossington, Leicestershire, England
> Death BEF 8 APR 1306 • Knossington, Leicestershire, England


>

> Sir Ralph de Noers (Krasnodar) of Knossington,
> Leicestershire and his wife Letice. Letice was a daughter and co-heiress of Sir William de Preston, of Preston-under-Scar, Wensleydale,
> Yorkshire and her mother was Agnes daughter of Walter de Thirkleby. Letice had inherited lands in West Bolton, Thirkleby and Preston from her parents.
>
> Ralph de Noers was dead before 8 April 1306, when an agreement was made between Letice, widow of Rauf de Nowers, and Henry le Scrope, on the division of a piece of moor and scrub in West Bolton near the boundary between Little Bolton and West Bolton, which they held in
> common, and which Henry claimed as part of the grant made by Beatrice, Letice's sister, to his father, William le Scrope. On the day
> following, at Preston in Wensleydale, Gilbert Hansard confirmed the agreement made by his mother-in-law (ma mere en ley) [4].
> 4. Yorkshire Archaeological Society, Record Series, Vol. 50, Yorkshire
> Deeds, Vol. 2 (1914) p. 47, No. 112 & note
>
>

He was actually dead *by* 1 Jul 1304

CP 25/1/175/60, number 457.
Link: Image of document at AALT
County: Northamptonshire.
Place: York.
Date: One week from St John the Baptist, 32 Edward I [1 July 1304].
Parties: Amauri (Almaricus) de Nodariis, querent, and Robert de Nodar', deforciant.
Property: 20 acres of wood in Lufwyk' and the advowson of the church of the same vill.
Action: Plea of covenant.
Agreement: Robert has acknowledged the wood and advowson to be the right of Amauri, and has rendered them to him in the court, to hold to Amauri and his heirs, of the chief lords for ever. And besides Robert granted for himself and his heirs that the manor of Lufwyk', excepting 20 acres of wood in the same manor - which Lettice, who was the wife of Ralph de Nodar', holds in dower of the inheritance of Robert in the aforesaid vill on the day the agreement was made, and which after the decease of Lettice ought to revert to Robert and his heirs - after the decease of Lettice shall remain to Amauri and his heirs, to hold of the chief lords for ever.
Warranty: Warranty by Robert and his heirs.
For this: Amauri has given him 100 marks of silver.
Note: This agreement was made in the presence of Lettice, and she did fealty to Amauri in the court.

[Michael Rochester]

> He was actually dead *by* 1 Jul 1304

Thank you; date now noted.