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Corroborating Sibella Turpin Genealogics Entry
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Andrew Z
Nov 6, 2021, 7:30:39 AM11/6/21
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Dear group,
First of all, I’d like to say that the collective (and individual) level of knowledge and expertise of this group is incredible – thank you all for your contributions over the years.
I was hoping to build on Brad Verity’s earlier research and corroborate the resulting Genealogics entry that shows Edward Villiers’ first wife, Sibella Turpin as the daughter of Sir George Turpin, MP and Frances Lane, and as the mother of Edward’s eldest daughter, Mary Villiers/Chambré. https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00721957&tree=LEO
Also, I believe that the Sibella Turpin’s date of death as per Genealogics cannot be 1624, as it as the date of death of Edward Villers’ second wife, Mary.
There was an excellent discussion sometime ago during which it was determined that since the Earl of Bathurst is descended from Edward Villiers’ youngest daughter from a different wife, his potential Edward III descent through Sibella Turpin was removed and she was not explored further. https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/eGoeH_wZRD0/m/f-ICqr0WCAAJ
Excerpts from Brad’s original post in regard to Sibella Turpin being the daughter Sir George Turpin, MP:
1)“Per the Villiers pedigree in the 1619 Visitation of Leicesteshire, the wife of Edward Villiers of Hothorpe Hall was "Sibell Da. of --- Turpin sister to Sr George Turpin Kt"
2)“It is chronologically impossible for Sibella Turpin to be the daughter of a man who died in 1530, and in turn be the mother of girls who were returned as ages 16, 8 & 7 in their father's IPM taken in 2 James II [1604-05]”
3)“Instead, it would seem that Sibella should be the married, unnamed daughter that Nichols assigns in his pedigree to George Turpin & Frances Lane.”
4)“Since Sibella Turpin bore her eldest daughter Mary Villiers in about 1589, she was likely born in the latter half of the 1560s, making her chronologically a daughter of Sir George Turpin (b. 1529), rather than of Sir William Turpin (b. c.1558).”
Excerpts from the subsequent discussion that indicate that Mary Villiers was the daughter of Edward Villiers’ first wife:
1)[Brian Hessick] “in the will of Edward Villiers of Hothorpe, Northamptonshire proven 5 May 1602 (PROB 11/99/324) he mentions Mary, his wife, is the mother of his younger daughters, Jane and Elizabeth”
2)[Brad Verity] “The will seems to make it clear that Edward had two wives, and that his daughters Jane & Elizabeth were from his second wife Mary. That helps to explain the age gap between Edward's eldest daughter Mary (16), and the other daughters Jane (8) and Elizabeth (7), as returned in his IPM.” “I was just going by Brian's statement that Edward Villiers in his will mentioned that his wife Mary was the mother of his younger daughters Jane and Elizabeth. I assumed that meant that the eldest daughter was from an earlier wife, presumably the Turpin one.”
3)[Ted Garway-Heath] “Mary, the second wife of Edward Villiers, was the daughter of 'Leonarde Coxe, widow, of Garsington' (PCC 1611).” “in the Will of Leonard Coxe and associated documents…Jane Dinham wife of John Dinham and Elizabeth Bathurst wife of George Bathurst relatives of said deceased” [According to HOP, Calcot Chambré remarried by September 1611, so it is possible that Mary Villiers would have not have been alive at the time this was written and thus not mentioned as a relative, although she would have been survived by her daughter.]
Additionally, I’d like to share some other information that wasn’t mentioned/available at the time of the original discussion:
1)The Turpin pedigree commissioned in 1564 by Sir George Turpin does not show him having a sister nor a daughter. However, it is possible that the daughter was born in the late 1560s, after the pedigree was commissioned (https://www.le.ac.uk/lahs/downloads/1961-62/1961-62 (37) 1-6 Steer.pdf).
2)According to Founder’s Kin by G.D Squibb, “it was discovered that Elizabeth Bathurst was not the daughter of Edward Villiers by Mary (or Sibella) Turpin, but by his second wife. The credit for this discovery seems to belong to Francis Townsend, Windsor Herald, for among his papers are some observations on the 1729 pedigree, with an argument to show that the pedigree was not only unsupported by the more ancient accounts of the Villiers and Turpin families, but that the statements in it were nearly, if not absolutely, impossible. The matter was considered by the Chapter of the College of Arms, and it was ordered on 7 July 1836 that the pedigree registered by Henry Pye in 1729 and by Edward Thomas Walker in 1801 be cancelled and the true pedigree recorded…Coll. Arm. MSS. Chapter Book X, pp.238-9; 2 L2, pp. 175-6. 291-3; 3 L2, pg. 123.” (https://archive.org/details/founderskinprivi0000squi/page/95/mode/1up?q=turpin&view=theater)
3)In the preface to the Chronicle of Calais, it is noted that Nichol’s Turpin pedigree required some corrections; however, since the focus of the discussion was the origin of Richard Turpyn, it’s unknown exactly what else was amended. “In the copy of Nichols's Leicestershire in the College of Arms, the late Francis Townsend, esq. Windsor herald, has drawn his pen through the name of Richard Turpyn the herald, thus apparently adopting the statement of Le Neve mentioned in the next page. Mr. Townsend has also in the same place made the following corrections : for sir William Turpin, died 1525, read William Turpyn esquire, died 1523; the death of John, for "June 18, 1530," in 1528-9 (without altering the month) ; his son William, born Sept. 30, 1527, not Sept. 1, 1529” (https://archive.org/details/calaischronicle00camduoft/page/n21/mode/2up)
4)It’s also interesting to note that according to the same source “The main authority for the Turpyn pedigree is not the Leicestershire Visitation of 1619, but Vincent's Leicester, 217.” This refers to the Vincent Collection held by the College of Arms (https://aim25.com/cgi-bin/vcdf/detail?coll_id=19905&inst_id=153&nv1=search&nv2=basic)
Based on the above, I believe the sources below could potentially help corroborate Sibella Turpin’s Genealogics entry:
1)The probate of Edward Villiers (PROB 11/99/324, https://drive.google.com/open?id=1H8LidOAjg4OKbFr9Z6TCsIsFzlyRO-kW&authuser=azwindsor%40gmail.com&usp=drive_fs ). Regrettably, I am unable to read chancery hand accurately yet.
2)Edward Villiers’ IPM (Inq. 2. Jas. I, n. 137 as per The History of Market Harborough)
3)Pat. 33, Hen. VIII., n. 7. (cited in The History of Market Harborough)
4)The Turpyn pedigree from the Vincent Collection (held by the College of Arms, with a more detailed index for it to be found in the following book: Catalogue of Manuscripts in the College of Arms: Collections, Volume 1, London, 1988)
5)Relevant College of Arms documents (such as Francis Townsend notes on the Turpin pedigree or those relating to the 1836 decision)
6)The probate or IPM of Sir George Turpin (if a copy is available)
7)Parish registers relating to Sibella Turpin, Mary Villiers and Edward Villiers’ marriages (I haven’t been able to find any so far).
Any comments or help accessing/interpreting these documents (or any others) would be very much appreciated.
Many thanks in advance!
Andrew
First of all, I’d like to say that the collective (and individual) level of knowledge and expertise of this group is incredible – thank you all for your contributions over the years.
I was hoping to build on Brad Verity’s earlier research and corroborate the resulting Genealogics entry that shows Edward Villiers’ first wife, Sibella Turpin as the daughter of Sir George Turpin, MP and Frances Lane, and as the mother of Edward’s eldest daughter, Mary Villiers/Chambré. https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00721957&tree=LEO
Also, I believe that the Sibella Turpin’s date of death as per Genealogics cannot be 1624, as it as the date of death of Edward Villers’ second wife, Mary.
There was an excellent discussion sometime ago during which it was determined that since the Earl of Bathurst is descended from Edward Villiers’ youngest daughter from a different wife, his potential Edward III descent through Sibella Turpin was removed and she was not explored further. https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/eGoeH_wZRD0/m/f-ICqr0WCAAJ
Excerpts from Brad’s original post in regard to Sibella Turpin being the daughter Sir George Turpin, MP:
1)“Per the Villiers pedigree in the 1619 Visitation of Leicesteshire, the wife of Edward Villiers of Hothorpe Hall was "Sibell Da. of --- Turpin sister to Sr George Turpin Kt"
2)“It is chronologically impossible for Sibella Turpin to be the daughter of a man who died in 1530, and in turn be the mother of girls who were returned as ages 16, 8 & 7 in their father's IPM taken in 2 James II [1604-05]”
3)“Instead, it would seem that Sibella should be the married, unnamed daughter that Nichols assigns in his pedigree to George Turpin & Frances Lane.”
4)“Since Sibella Turpin bore her eldest daughter Mary Villiers in about 1589, she was likely born in the latter half of the 1560s, making her chronologically a daughter of Sir George Turpin (b. 1529), rather than of Sir William Turpin (b. c.1558).”
Excerpts from the subsequent discussion that indicate that Mary Villiers was the daughter of Edward Villiers’ first wife:
1)[Brian Hessick] “in the will of Edward Villiers of Hothorpe, Northamptonshire proven 5 May 1602 (PROB 11/99/324) he mentions Mary, his wife, is the mother of his younger daughters, Jane and Elizabeth”
2)[Brad Verity] “The will seems to make it clear that Edward had two wives, and that his daughters Jane & Elizabeth were from his second wife Mary. That helps to explain the age gap between Edward's eldest daughter Mary (16), and the other daughters Jane (8) and Elizabeth (7), as returned in his IPM.” “I was just going by Brian's statement that Edward Villiers in his will mentioned that his wife Mary was the mother of his younger daughters Jane and Elizabeth. I assumed that meant that the eldest daughter was from an earlier wife, presumably the Turpin one.”
3)[Ted Garway-Heath] “Mary, the second wife of Edward Villiers, was the daughter of 'Leonarde Coxe, widow, of Garsington' (PCC 1611).” “in the Will of Leonard Coxe and associated documents…Jane Dinham wife of John Dinham and Elizabeth Bathurst wife of George Bathurst relatives of said deceased” [According to HOP, Calcot Chambré remarried by September 1611, so it is possible that Mary Villiers would have not have been alive at the time this was written and thus not mentioned as a relative, although she would have been survived by her daughter.]
Additionally, I’d like to share some other information that wasn’t mentioned/available at the time of the original discussion:
1)The Turpin pedigree commissioned in 1564 by Sir George Turpin does not show him having a sister nor a daughter. However, it is possible that the daughter was born in the late 1560s, after the pedigree was commissioned (https://www.le.ac.uk/lahs/downloads/1961-62/1961-62 (37) 1-6 Steer.pdf).
2)According to Founder’s Kin by G.D Squibb, “it was discovered that Elizabeth Bathurst was not the daughter of Edward Villiers by Mary (or Sibella) Turpin, but by his second wife. The credit for this discovery seems to belong to Francis Townsend, Windsor Herald, for among his papers are some observations on the 1729 pedigree, with an argument to show that the pedigree was not only unsupported by the more ancient accounts of the Villiers and Turpin families, but that the statements in it were nearly, if not absolutely, impossible. The matter was considered by the Chapter of the College of Arms, and it was ordered on 7 July 1836 that the pedigree registered by Henry Pye in 1729 and by Edward Thomas Walker in 1801 be cancelled and the true pedigree recorded…Coll. Arm. MSS. Chapter Book X, pp.238-9; 2 L2, pp. 175-6. 291-3; 3 L2, pg. 123.” (https://archive.org/details/founderskinprivi0000squi/page/95/mode/1up?q=turpin&view=theater)
3)In the preface to the Chronicle of Calais, it is noted that Nichol’s Turpin pedigree required some corrections; however, since the focus of the discussion was the origin of Richard Turpyn, it’s unknown exactly what else was amended. “In the copy of Nichols's Leicestershire in the College of Arms, the late Francis Townsend, esq. Windsor herald, has drawn his pen through the name of Richard Turpyn the herald, thus apparently adopting the statement of Le Neve mentioned in the next page. Mr. Townsend has also in the same place made the following corrections : for sir William Turpin, died 1525, read William Turpyn esquire, died 1523; the death of John, for "June 18, 1530," in 1528-9 (without altering the month) ; his son William, born Sept. 30, 1527, not Sept. 1, 1529” (https://archive.org/details/calaischronicle00camduoft/page/n21/mode/2up)
4)It’s also interesting to note that according to the same source “The main authority for the Turpyn pedigree is not the Leicestershire Visitation of 1619, but Vincent's Leicester, 217.” This refers to the Vincent Collection held by the College of Arms (https://aim25.com/cgi-bin/vcdf/detail?coll_id=19905&inst_id=153&nv1=search&nv2=basic)
Based on the above, I believe the sources below could potentially help corroborate Sibella Turpin’s Genealogics entry:
1)The probate of Edward Villiers (PROB 11/99/324, https://drive.google.com/open?id=1H8LidOAjg4OKbFr9Z6TCsIsFzlyRO-kW&authuser=azwindsor%40gmail.com&usp=drive_fs ). Regrettably, I am unable to read chancery hand accurately yet.
2)Edward Villiers’ IPM (Inq. 2. Jas. I, n. 137 as per The History of Market Harborough)
3)Pat. 33, Hen. VIII., n. 7. (cited in The History of Market Harborough)
4)The Turpyn pedigree from the Vincent Collection (held by the College of Arms, with a more detailed index for it to be found in the following book: Catalogue of Manuscripts in the College of Arms: Collections, Volume 1, London, 1988)
5)Relevant College of Arms documents (such as Francis Townsend notes on the Turpin pedigree or those relating to the 1836 decision)
6)The probate or IPM of Sir George Turpin (if a copy is available)
7)Parish registers relating to Sibella Turpin, Mary Villiers and Edward Villiers’ marriages (I haven’t been able to find any so far).
Any comments or help accessing/interpreting these documents (or any others) would be very much appreciated.
Many thanks in advance!
Andrew
Will Johnson
Nov 6, 2021, 6:58:22 PM11/6/21
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Linc Ped, perhaps citing Vis Leic where this same entry is made
has Sibil as daughter of ... Turpin and Sister of Sir George Turpin
Sir George who d 1583 had "one son and one daughter" per his HOP
The son is there named William
he died intestate
So I would suggest as well including this son William and any documents which might mention a sister
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/turpin-george-1529-83
has Sibil as daughter of ... Turpin and Sister of Sir George Turpin
Sir George who d 1583 had "one son and one daughter" per his HOP
The son is there named William
he died intestate
So I would suggest as well including this son William and any documents which might mention a sister
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/turpin-george-1529-83
Andrew Z
Nov 7, 2021, 5:19:39 AM11/7/21
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Will Johnson
Nov 7, 2021, 11:45:00 AM11/7/21
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If you sign in you can download it for free
taf
Nov 7, 2021, 1:48:25 PM11/7/21
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A2A (Access to Archives) was a now-defunct catalogue of the holdings of local and regional public archives, sinced merged into their general Discovery catalogue (though the PCC wills such as this would never have been part of A2A, but instead of The Catalogue, also merged into Discovery).
Presumably this is the will Will has in mind:
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D900726
taf
John Higgins
Nov 7, 2021, 7:34:26 PM11/7/21
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After looking at the current Genealogics entry for Sibella Turpin, it’s clear to me that the entry does not fully reflect the discussions in 2013 and 2014 and subsequent posts, as well as an off-group discussion involving some of the participants in the 2013/14 discussions. Here are some points in that regard:
The 1600 will of Edward Villiers of Hothorpe mentions only a wife Mary, who subsequently married Ralph Kebbell. No mention of Sibella Turpin as his wife or as mother of any of his children.
The Villiers and Turpin pedigrees differ as to exactly where Sibella fits in the Turpin pedigree. And the current thread mentions difficulties with the various Turpin pedigrees. Further, a post of 27 Apr 2O18 (in the thread that is started by Brad Verity’s 2013 post cited above) suggested that Sibella was properly identified as a daughter of John Turpin in the Turpin pedigree in Nicholls, Leics, 4:225 – but that the pedigree assigned Sibella to the wrong Edward Villiers. This was also mentioned in an off-group discussion of the matter, as the Villers pedigrees are all pretty incomplete in this period. Thus it is possible that Sibella Turpin was NOT the wife of Edward Villiers of Hothorpe – despite what some of the pedigrees may say.
I think it is pretty clear that the two younger daughters of Edward Villiers of Hothorpe were by his wife Mary (who later married Ralph Kebbell), and it seems fully possible that Edward’s eldest daughter Mary (wife of Calcott Chambré) was also a daughter by that wife (and named for her?). There certainly seems to be no specific evidence that she was a daughter of Sibella Turpin, as presently indicated in Genealogics.
(BTW, for those who are interested, Mary Villiers and Calcott Chambré are ancestral to Princess Diana.)
Andrew Z
Nov 8, 2021, 6:31:50 AM11/8/21
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Thank you Will for finding an easily accessible copy of William Turpin's will, it is certainly worth exploring. I also appreciated taf's clarification - I will admit that my initial googling of A2A produced a mixed bag of results and the link was very helpful since I originally downloaded the will for Turpin, William knight: Leicester (https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7747059), who appears to be a different Sir William Turpin.
John, I think this is an excellent summary of the documentary evidence issue (or lack thereof) for Sibella Turpin's marriage to Edward Villiers (and the maternity of Mary Villiers). I think Brad makes a compelling case; however, Sibella Turpin is only mentioned in two original sources: the Nichol's pedigree (not always a reliable source and which contradicts Turpins' own pedigree) and the 1619 Leicestershire visitation (where she is identified as a sister to Sir George). That's why I was hoping that this discussion will help explore potential other sources to shed some new light on the matter.
In regard to Sibella Turpin being a potential wife of an earlier Edward Villiers (namely the grandfather of the one in question), I can only say that the pedigree that was commissioned by Sir George Turpin does not show John Turpin having any daughters and that according to the Lincolnshire pedigrees, Edward Villiers died in 1513 and was married to Jane Roos. It is possible that both of those sources have incomplete information though.
I should also mention that although Hothorpe Hall is less than 5 miles away from Knaptoft, there were other Turpin families during this period, as indicated by the other Sir William's will referenced above. Additionally, as per the Yorkshire Pedigrees, Catherine, daughter of Sir George Turpin married Geoffrey Markham (https://archive.org/details/pedigreesofcount02fost/page/n17/mode/1up?view=theater&q=turpin). However, the
The Visitations of Northamptonshire have her as Katherin, dau. and heir of ....Turpin of Astwood (https://archive.org/details/visitationsnort00vincgoog/page/n203/mode/1up?q=turpin).
Also, I'd be curious to see how Mary Villiers and Calcott Chambré are ancestral to Princess Diana (if you have that information handy).
Many thanks!
Andrew
John, I think this is an excellent summary of the documentary evidence issue (or lack thereof) for Sibella Turpin's marriage to Edward Villiers (and the maternity of Mary Villiers). I think Brad makes a compelling case; however, Sibella Turpin is only mentioned in two original sources: the Nichol's pedigree (not always a reliable source and which contradicts Turpins' own pedigree) and the 1619 Leicestershire visitation (where she is identified as a sister to Sir George). That's why I was hoping that this discussion will help explore potential other sources to shed some new light on the matter.
In regard to Sibella Turpin being a potential wife of an earlier Edward Villiers (namely the grandfather of the one in question), I can only say that the pedigree that was commissioned by Sir George Turpin does not show John Turpin having any daughters and that according to the Lincolnshire pedigrees, Edward Villiers died in 1513 and was married to Jane Roos. It is possible that both of those sources have incomplete information though.
I should also mention that although Hothorpe Hall is less than 5 miles away from Knaptoft, there were other Turpin families during this period, as indicated by the other Sir William's will referenced above. Additionally, as per the Yorkshire Pedigrees, Catherine, daughter of Sir George Turpin married Geoffrey Markham (https://archive.org/details/pedigreesofcount02fost/page/n17/mode/1up?view=theater&q=turpin). However, the
The Visitations of Northamptonshire have her as Katherin, dau. and heir of ....Turpin of Astwood (https://archive.org/details/visitationsnort00vincgoog/page/n203/mode/1up?q=turpin).
Also, I'd be curious to see how Mary Villiers and Calcott Chambré are ancestral to Princess Diana (if you have that information handy).
Many thanks!
Andrew
John Higgins
Nov 8, 2021, 11:53:34 AM11/8/21
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On Monday, November 8, 2021 at 3:31:50 AM UTC-8, Andrew Z wrote:
>
> Also, I'd be curious to see how Mary Villiers and Calcott Chambré are ancestral to Princess Diana (if you have that information handy).
>
> Many thanks!
>
> Andrew
Mary Villiers and Calcott Chambré are in the Genealogics database (of course!). The descent to Princess Diana runs through the families of Chambré, Brabazon, Moore, Ponsonby, Grey, Bulteel, and Baring to Spencer.
>
> Also, I'd be curious to see how Mary Villiers and Calcott Chambré are ancestral to Princess Diana (if you have that information handy).
>
> Many thanks!
>
> Andrew
Andrew Z
Nov 8, 2021, 4:58:51 PM11/8/21
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John Higgins
Nov 10, 2021, 7:41:21 PM11/10/21
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Andrew Z
Nov 10, 2021, 8:33:21 PM11/10/21
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Andrew Z
Nov 20, 2021, 3:35:55 PM11/20/21
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On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 7:24:04 PM UTC-5, Brad Verity wrote:
> Andrew, I removed Sybilla from my database, but there remains the issue of John Nichols, in his 1807 'Pedigree of Gobion and Turpin, of Knaptoft', assigning to Sir George Turpin (1529-1583) and Frances Lane (descended from Edward III), "A daughter, married to .............."
>
> In 2018, Thomas Bonnett suggested that this daughter was Elizabeth Turpin, first wife of Andrew Halford, Heir of Wistow Hall (c.1603-1657)
> https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/eGoeH_wZRD0/m/f-ICqr0WCAAJ
>
> But the chronology is off for that identification. As any daughter of Sir George Turpin could not have been born later than 1583, the year of Sir George's death (his son and heir Sir William Turpin was born about 1558), while Andrew Halford was not born until 1603. His wife Elizabeth would not have been at least twenty years his senior.
>
> So the question remains as to the identity of the daughter of Sir George and Frances (Lane) Turpin. And another question - where to place Elizabeth (Turpin) Halford in the Turpin pedigree (Nichols doesn't include her, nor make any mention of a Turpin-Halford marriage) - also arises.
> On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 12:06:38 PM UTC-8, Guy Vincent wrote:
> > Andrew, Although I haven't found any baptism or burial date for Mary Villers/Chambre, she married Calcott 6th October 1597 in Cropredy. Calcotts' will dated 1628 and proved 1636 makes no mention of a wife so presumably Mary was already dead. Marys' father Edward, in his will of 1600 proved 1602 mentions his wife Mary. Perhaps this is the mother of Mary who married Calcott. She could be a subsequent wife but usually would be referred to as "my now wife". Edward also mentions his son in law Calcott confirming that they were married by the date of his will.
> Guy, Mary (Villiers) Chambre was dead by 1611, as Calcot Chambre married his second wife Lucy Gobard (descended from Edward III) in September of that year. Lucy (Gobard) Chambre died 28 August 1622, six years before Calcot made out his will, thus no mention of a wife in that document.
>
> I agree with John Higgins that, despite the Villiers pedigree in the 1619 Visitation of Leicestershire, the strongest likelihood is that Edward Villiers of Hothorpe Hall had only the one wife, Mary Fisher (who married 2ndly, Ralph Kettell, president of Trinity College Oxford), and that she was the mother of all three of his daughters and co-heiresses, including Mary (Villiers) Chambre. I've adjusted my database accordingly.
On Saturday, November 20, 2021 at 12:47:40 PM UTC-5, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
> A small but important correction:
>
> I agree that all three of Edward Villiers' children were by his wife Mary Fisher, but I don't believe that we concluded that Mary was the ONLY wife of Edward Villers. There is a good deal of uncertainty about the antecedents of Sibella Turpin, but I think it's clear that she WAS the 1st wife of Edward Villiers. After all, Sibella was the link by which the Bathurst descendants of Edward Villers claimed to be "founders' kin" at Winchester College. The claim was later disallowed because Edward Villers's daughter Elizabeth was found to be a daughter of the second wife - not because of any question about the existence of Sibella Villiers.
Thank you again Guy and Brad.
It seems to me that the Genealogics entry for Sibella Turpin cannot be corroborated at this time on the basis of available evidence and Guy's comment that "She could be a subsequent wife but usually would be referred to as "my now wife", as well as Brad's comment that "the strongest likelihood is that Edward Villiers of Hothorpe Hall had only the one wife, Mary Fisher (who married 2ndly, Ralph Kettell, president of Trinity College Oxford), and that she was the mother of all three of his daughters and co-heiresses, including Mary (Villiers) Chambre."
I would like to note that according to HOP, Calcot Chambre married Mary Villiers c. 1599 and Guy has discovered that "she married Calcott 6th October 1597 in Cropredy." However, as per the original post, "Sibella Turpin bore her eldest daughter Mary Villiers in about 1589" and "girls returned as ages 16, 8 & 7 in their father's IPM taken in 2 James II [1604-05]" This would make Mary about eight years old at the time of her marriage, implying that she was born before 1589?
In regard to Elizabeth Turpin, (supposed) first wife of Andrew Halford (as per The Baronetage of England by Thomas Wotton), I wonder if she was somehow confused with a daughter of Sir William Turpin's (presumed) son, George. According to Le Neve, she married Sir John Prettyman and her daughter married Sir William Halford.
https://archive.org/details/lenevespedigrees01lene/page/113/mode/1up?q=turpin
https://archive.org/details/lenevespedigrees01lene/page/286/mode/1up?q=turpin
As per Will's suggestion, I've downloaded a copy of Sir William Turpin's will, but unfortunately my understanding of chancery hand isn't strong enough to definitively say if he mentions a sister or any nieces/nephews in it. I've added it to the folder shared previously: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1H8LidOAjg4OKbFr9Z6TCsIsFzlyRO-kW
I also think John raises an interesting point in regard to disproven founder's kin pedigree. More specifically, the descent from William of Wykeham (founder of Winchester College at Oxford) was claimed through the wife of Sir William Turpin (Sir George Turpin's son), Elizabeth Fiennes, as can be seen here:
https://books.google.ca/books?id=D68UAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA521#v=onepage&q&f=false
The pedigree in question erroneously showed Sibella to be the daughter of Sir William Turpin, not Sir George Turpin. According to Founder’s Kin by G.D Squibb, “it was discovered that Elizabeth Bathurst was not the daughter of Edward Villiers by Mary (or Sibella) Turpin, but by his second wife." I believe that the author had access to the original College of Arms documents and on that basis stated that there was a second wife. However, since it also says "Mary (or Sibella) Turpin", it seems to indicate that that the identities of Edward Villiers' wives were not clearly established/separated.
All the best!
Andrew
> Andrew, I removed Sybilla from my database, but there remains the issue of John Nichols, in his 1807 'Pedigree of Gobion and Turpin, of Knaptoft', assigning to Sir George Turpin (1529-1583) and Frances Lane (descended from Edward III), "A daughter, married to .............."
>
> In 2018, Thomas Bonnett suggested that this daughter was Elizabeth Turpin, first wife of Andrew Halford, Heir of Wistow Hall (c.1603-1657)
> https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/eGoeH_wZRD0/m/f-ICqr0WCAAJ
>
> But the chronology is off for that identification. As any daughter of Sir George Turpin could not have been born later than 1583, the year of Sir George's death (his son and heir Sir William Turpin was born about 1558), while Andrew Halford was not born until 1603. His wife Elizabeth would not have been at least twenty years his senior.
>
> So the question remains as to the identity of the daughter of Sir George and Frances (Lane) Turpin. And another question - where to place Elizabeth (Turpin) Halford in the Turpin pedigree (Nichols doesn't include her, nor make any mention of a Turpin-Halford marriage) - also arises.
> On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 12:06:38 PM UTC-8, Guy Vincent wrote:
> > Andrew, Although I haven't found any baptism or burial date for Mary Villers/Chambre, she married Calcott 6th October 1597 in Cropredy. Calcotts' will dated 1628 and proved 1636 makes no mention of a wife so presumably Mary was already dead. Marys' father Edward, in his will of 1600 proved 1602 mentions his wife Mary. Perhaps this is the mother of Mary who married Calcott. She could be a subsequent wife but usually would be referred to as "my now wife". Edward also mentions his son in law Calcott confirming that they were married by the date of his will.
> Guy, Mary (Villiers) Chambre was dead by 1611, as Calcot Chambre married his second wife Lucy Gobard (descended from Edward III) in September of that year. Lucy (Gobard) Chambre died 28 August 1622, six years before Calcot made out his will, thus no mention of a wife in that document.
>
> I agree with John Higgins that, despite the Villiers pedigree in the 1619 Visitation of Leicestershire, the strongest likelihood is that Edward Villiers of Hothorpe Hall had only the one wife, Mary Fisher (who married 2ndly, Ralph Kettell, president of Trinity College Oxford), and that she was the mother of all three of his daughters and co-heiresses, including Mary (Villiers) Chambre. I've adjusted my database accordingly.
On Saturday, November 20, 2021 at 12:47:40 PM UTC-5, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
> A small but important correction:
>
> I agree that all three of Edward Villiers' children were by his wife Mary Fisher, but I don't believe that we concluded that Mary was the ONLY wife of Edward Villers. There is a good deal of uncertainty about the antecedents of Sibella Turpin, but I think it's clear that she WAS the 1st wife of Edward Villiers. After all, Sibella was the link by which the Bathurst descendants of Edward Villers claimed to be "founders' kin" at Winchester College. The claim was later disallowed because Edward Villers's daughter Elizabeth was found to be a daughter of the second wife - not because of any question about the existence of Sibella Villiers.
Thank you again Guy and Brad.
It seems to me that the Genealogics entry for Sibella Turpin cannot be corroborated at this time on the basis of available evidence and Guy's comment that "She could be a subsequent wife but usually would be referred to as "my now wife", as well as Brad's comment that "the strongest likelihood is that Edward Villiers of Hothorpe Hall had only the one wife, Mary Fisher (who married 2ndly, Ralph Kettell, president of Trinity College Oxford), and that she was the mother of all three of his daughters and co-heiresses, including Mary (Villiers) Chambre."
I would like to note that according to HOP, Calcot Chambre married Mary Villiers c. 1599 and Guy has discovered that "she married Calcott 6th October 1597 in Cropredy." However, as per the original post, "Sibella Turpin bore her eldest daughter Mary Villiers in about 1589" and "girls returned as ages 16, 8 & 7 in their father's IPM taken in 2 James II [1604-05]" This would make Mary about eight years old at the time of her marriage, implying that she was born before 1589?
In regard to Elizabeth Turpin, (supposed) first wife of Andrew Halford (as per The Baronetage of England by Thomas Wotton), I wonder if she was somehow confused with a daughter of Sir William Turpin's (presumed) son, George. According to Le Neve, she married Sir John Prettyman and her daughter married Sir William Halford.
https://archive.org/details/lenevespedigrees01lene/page/113/mode/1up?q=turpin
https://archive.org/details/lenevespedigrees01lene/page/286/mode/1up?q=turpin
As per Will's suggestion, I've downloaded a copy of Sir William Turpin's will, but unfortunately my understanding of chancery hand isn't strong enough to definitively say if he mentions a sister or any nieces/nephews in it. I've added it to the folder shared previously: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1H8LidOAjg4OKbFr9Z6TCsIsFzlyRO-kW
I also think John raises an interesting point in regard to disproven founder's kin pedigree. More specifically, the descent from William of Wykeham (founder of Winchester College at Oxford) was claimed through the wife of Sir William Turpin (Sir George Turpin's son), Elizabeth Fiennes, as can be seen here:
https://books.google.ca/books?id=D68UAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA521#v=onepage&q&f=false
The pedigree in question erroneously showed Sibella to be the daughter of Sir William Turpin, not Sir George Turpin. According to Founder’s Kin by G.D Squibb, “it was discovered that Elizabeth Bathurst was not the daughter of Edward Villiers by Mary (or Sibella) Turpin, but by his second wife." I believe that the author had access to the original College of Arms documents and on that basis stated that there was a second wife. However, since it also says "Mary (or Sibella) Turpin", it seems to indicate that that the identities of Edward Villiers' wives were not clearly established/separated.
All the best!
Andrew
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