Jane Nevill as ancestor of both Prince Charles and Lady Diana Spencer
Leo van de Pas
Jumping to conclusions, I am of the opinion that Jane was the second child of George (Junior) and Joan FitzAlan, because the other daughter married "before 16 July 1517" some three years before "before May 1520" when Jane married.
I produced for Douglas Richardson lines from Jane to both Prince Charles and Lady Diana Spencer. I found there seems to be only one line from Jane Nevill to Prince Charles but there are eight to Lady Diana. Douglas suggested I should send them to Gen-Med, well, here they are. Sorry, only one line to Lady Diana :-)
Jane Nevill
-1538
/
Hon. Catherine Pole
/
George Hastings
4th Earl of Huntingdon
1540-1604
/
Francis Hastings
Lord Hastings
1560-1595
/
Catherine Hastings
/
Henry Stanhope
Lord Stanhope
/
Philip Stanhope
2nd Earl of Chesterfield
1634-1714
/
Lady Elizabeth Stanhope
1663-1723
/
Thomas Lyon
8th Earl of Strathmore and Kinghorne
1704-1753
/
John Lyon
9th Earl of Strathmore and Kinghorne
1737-1776
/
Thomas Lyon-Bowes
11th Earl of Strathmore and Kinghorne
1773-1846
/
Thomas George Lyon-Bowes
Lord Glamis
1801-1834
/
Claude Bowes-Lyon
13th Earl of Strathmore and Kinghorne
1824-1904
/
Claude George Bowes-Lyon
14th Earl of Strathmore and Kinghorne
1855-1944
/
Lady Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon
1900-2002
/
Elizabeth II
Queen of Great Britain etc.
1926-
/
Charles
Prince of Wales
1948-
=========
Jane Nevill
-1538
/
Hon. Catherine Pole
/
George Hastings
4th Earl of Huntingdon
1540-1604
/
Francis Hastings
Lord Hastings
1560-1595
/
Catherine Hastings
/
Lady Elizabeth Stanhope
/
Catherine Darcy
1641-1713
/
Elizabeth Philipps
/
Catherine Shorter
1682-1737
/
Sir Edward Walpole
Chief Secretary of Ireland
/
Maria Walpole
1736-1807
/
Anne Horatio Waldegrave
1762-1801
/
Sir Horace Beauchamp Seymour
1791-1851
/
Adelaide Horatia Elizabeth Seymour
1825-1877
/
Charles Robert Spencer
6th Earl Spencer
1857-1922
/
Albert Edward Spencer
7th Earl Spencer
1892-1975
/
Edward John Spencer
8th Earl Spencer
1924-1992
/
Lady Diana Spencer
1961-1997
Hope this is of some interest.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, ACT, Australia
Tim Powys-Lybbe
leov...@bigpond.com ("Leo van de Pas") wrote:
> I think Douglas Richardson has made an important find by placing Jane
> Nevill one generation later. I queried who could have been her mother
> (her father was married three times) and I think the reasons of Douglas
> Richardson, making the first wife her mother, are the correct ones.
<snip>
> I produced for Douglas Richardson lines from Jane to both Prince Charles
> and Lady Diana Spencer. I found there seems to be only one line from
> Jane Nevill to Prince Charles but there are eight to Lady Diana. Douglas
> suggested I should send them to Gen-Med, well, here they are. Sorry,
> only one line to Lady Diana :-)
>
> Jane Nevill
> -1538
> /
> Hon. Catherine Pole
Is there any evidence that the title / prefix "Hon" was used in her
times?
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a patchwork of bygones: http://powys.org
Rick Eaton
interesting. Some may recall that, long ago, I raised a
question about the quartered frets in the Spencer arms, as
they are so similar to quartered frets in many versions of
Eyton/Eaton arms. Now, what makes Leo's instant observation
so interesting to be is that the Eatons of Cheshire were
most assuredly connected to the de la poles and, while the
arms are of decidedly different design, they are branch of
the ancient line that was seated on the Wealdmoors in
Shropshire or very possibly vice versa (which is the
originating chicken, or egg, remains to be determined).
In response to my query, the Spencer arms were attacked as
being a concoction of the family and, apparently, a
conspiring herald. leo's factoid now makes me wonder about
that and whether or not I too hastily gave up on the fret
angle.
Anything to fill in the gaping holes in the above?
Rick Eaton
Voice: 203.453.6261 Fax:203.453.0076
----------
>From: Tim Powys-Lybbe <t...@powys.org>
>To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
>Subject: Re: Jane Nevill as ancestor of both Prince Charles and
Lady Diana Spencer
>Date: Tue, Aug 13, 2002, 8:25 PM
Rick Eaton
> and, while the
> arms are of decidedly different design, they are branch of
> the ancient line that was seated on the Wealdmoors in
> Shropshire
By the "they are a branch, I mean the Eatons of Cheshire are
a branch (or vice versa) of the Eytons of Shropshire.
Rick Eaton
Voice: 203.453.6261 Fax:203.453.0076
----------
>From: "Rick Eaton" <eaton...@cshore.com>
>To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
>Subject: Re: Jane Nevill as ancestor of both Prince Charles and
Lady Diana Spencer
>Date: Wed, Aug 14, 2002, 9:54 PM
Leo van de Pas
A while ago a book (by Charles, Earl Spencer) discussed the possibility, and
probability, of the Spencers descending from the De Spencer family,
notorious in the reign of Edward II. Earl Spencer recalls how his
grandfather was certain they descended from a junior branch. I stay away
from coat-of-arms, I think they are beautiful, interesting but a knowledge
on their own. I wonder whether Tim Powys-Lybbe can tell you anything.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: Rick Eaton <eaton...@cshore.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Tim Powys-Lybbe
eaton...@cshore.com ("Rick Eaton") wrote:
> perhaps egotistically, find this information very
> interesting. Some may recall that, long ago, I raised a
> question about the quartered frets in the Spencer arms, as
> they are so similar to quartered frets in many versions of
> Eyton/Eaton arms. Now, what makes Leo's instant observation
> so interesting to be is that the Eatons of Cheshire were
> most assuredly connected to the de la poles
The Henry Pole / Poole that Jane Neville married was desended from a
Wwelsh family that came (probably) from Welshpool (hence the original
name of Poole) and probably came to England with Owen Tudor, the one who
married Catherine of Valois.
The de la Poles were, in those times, a far more prestigious family
from, originally, Hull and had the odd dukedom in thier line.
Mind you, the last time I looked, the "Hull" site still had these two
families confused and joined together.
Tim Powys-Lybbe
leov...@bigpond.com ("Leo van de Pas") wrote:
> Dear Rick,
> A while ago a book (by Charles, Earl Spencer) discussed the possibility,
> and probability, of the Spencers descending from the De Spencer
> family, notorious in the reign of Edward II. Earl Spencer recalls how
> his grandfather was certain they descended from a junior branch. I stay
> away from coat-of-arms, I think they are beautiful, interesting but a
> knowledge on their own. I wonder whether Tim Powys-Lybbe can tell you
> anything.
Only that Round tore into the quartering of the Despenser arms by the
Spencers in his "Studies in Peerage and Family History", pp. 279-329,
reprinted by the Genealogical Publishing Company in 1996 (and containing
his articles on the Stewarts). I think there are still copies in print.
Apparently this hearldic forgery occurred in 1595. Round does not
accuse the Spencers of this concoction, rather he accuses the herald
Lee, Clarenceux King of Arms at that time.
The question Round addressed was one solely of genealogy, not heraldry,
so it needs no more knowledge than the scope of this newsgroup.
Finally I think there is a line of descent from the Despensers to the
Spencers but it ambles through various other families first.
--
Chris Phillips
Leo van de Pas wrote:
> A while ago a book (by Charles, Earl Spencer) discussed the possibility,
and
> probability, of the Spencers descending from the De Spencer family,
> notorious in the reign of Edward II. Earl Spencer recalls how his
> grandfather was certain they descended from a junior branch.
I had always been mildly curious what Earl Spencer said in his book -
whether he commented at all on the fact that the descent had been seriously
doubted for centuries and definitely disproved in 1901 - although never
curious enough to look at the book.
I was surprised to find that the book is online at the web site of Althorp,
the family seat!
http://www.althorp.com/spencer-family/spencer-book.asp
The relevant pages are 2-5.
It turns out that he trots out what appears to be the traditional fraudulent
pedigree. Earl Spencer comments that Evelyn Philip Shirley in 1859 had been
"sniffy" about the pedigree, "although he failed to specify where the
problem lay". He adds that Camden believed it, "yet contemporary
commentators still hold the claim as being open to question. For my part, I
have, in the course of compiling this book, studied the family papers in
some depth, and fail to see where the problem lies." Finally he mentions
that two hundred years previously, the editor of Collins's Peerage "struck
on a compromise position" (which, by the sound of it, consisted of
jettisoning the descent from the Despencers altogether).
If only Earl Spencer had looked at J.H. Round's "Studies in Peerage and
Family History" (1901), he would have found a detailed investigation of when
and how the Spencer pedigree was forged, together with explicit disproof in
the shape of the inquisition post mortem of Sir John le Despencer (d.1274),
which makes it clear he died without issue. Not only that, but the
Despencers themselves were falsely given a descent from Turstin Dispensator
(in the time of Henry II), and at some stage, Turstin himself was given a
false descent from William Dispensator in the time of William I (Turstin's
father was Simon, not William as stated by Earl Spencer [Keats-Rohan,
Domesday Descendants, p.800]).
On the same web site is a much more conservative chart pedigree, shorn of
the Despencer connection:
http://www.althorp.com/spencer-family/familytree.pdf
This section is not discussed in depth by Round. Can anyone say how accurate
the early part is?
Chris Phillips
Douglas Richardson
Many thanks for sharing the descents which Prince Charles and his
former wife, Diana, have from Sir Henry Pole, Lord Montagu, and his
wife, Jane Neville. I appreciate the time you took to produce this
information for the newsgroup. Your thoughtfulness and generosity in
sharing data with others is an example for all of us to follow. I
found this information very interesting indeed. Again thanks.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
leov...@bigpond.com ("Leo van de Pas") wrote in message news:<036d01c242be$b72e9ce0$1e53fea9@old>...
Chris Phillips
> Thanks for responding Leo. I am aware of the challenges to
> the Spencer lineage and they may well be true. I should care
> more about that, but I am -- as you see, of course, more
> focused on the narrower issue, the strong similarity of
> threir arms to those of the Eytons and Eatons. This is
> important to we Eatons because our purported first known
> ancestor's arms were frets quartered with the Pantulf
> ermine.
If there were a connection, I think it would have to be with the arms of the
13th-14th century Despencers, as Round is clear that the Spencers "stole" a
differenced version of these as part of the fraud, having earlier borne a
quite different coat of arms:
http://www.baronage.co.uk/bphtm-01/books-6a.html
I don't know whether it helps, but Round does put forward a theory about the
Despencer coat, though he says he is being "perhaps, a little rash" in doing
so. Having shown that Elias Despencer, evidently the ancestor of the
Despencers, had held land at Arnesby, Leicestershire, under Hugh de
Beauchamp, he suggests that the Despender arms were a form of the Beauchamp
arms, differenced by changing the tincture of the 1st and 4th quarters (from
or) and adding a fret in the other two quarters. Round adds that "fret" and
"fretty" seem to have been sometimes used for differencing.
Complete Peerage makes a similar suggestion that the Despencer arms were
"obviously" derived [in a similar way] from those of the [Lacy] constables
of Chester. The account given of their origins indicates it's more likely
they held the office of dispencers of the earls of Chester, but says it is
possible they served the constables instead.
Anyhow, the idea about frets serving as a mark of difference may be a clue
for you.
Chris Phillips
Rick Eaton
This may be enormously helpful for more than one reason.
I am pursuing now the theory, supposition really, that the
Eyton/Eaton fret may have been used in exactly the way you
suggest; that is, to differentiate the Eaton/Eyton branch
from "original" and very early Pantulf arms. Perhaps more
because of the absence of information, rather than the
availability of facts, this seems to be a potentially
productive approach.
The genealogical quandry is this: The Rev. Mr. R. W. Eaton,
the great Shropshire historian and genealogist, supposes --
because of the estates (manors) that they held, that the
Eytons of Shropshire (Eyton, half of Lawley, Horton, Sutton
and one other that escapes me at the moment) and
Staffordshire (Cresswell) were either a cadet line of
Pantulf or "immediate descendants" of Warine the Bald, first
Norman sheriff of Shropshire and *possibly* also a cadet of
Pantulf
To briefly explain, some of the manors held by the first
Eyton, Robert, lord of Eyton-on-the-Wealdmoors and others,
had been in the hands of William Pantulf baron of Wem, while
others had been held by sheriff Warin -- and, thus the above
reasoning. Eyton-on-the-Wealdmoors was, in Domesday, said to
be "of the old feeoffment," which has never been explained
further to my knowledge. In other words, I don't have a clue
as to what this reference means.
Again to my knowledge, or that of the 65 or so current
members of the Eaton Families Association, no historian or
genealogist has developed any more information than Rev.
Eyton presented, other than connecting the family to
Denbighshire in Wales and to the Eatons in Cheshire. Indeed,
the long held connection of Shropshire Eatons to those of
Dover, recently was called in to question through the work
of a professional genealogist, creating 2002 as a year of
mournful loss of genealogical underpinnings.
Since, over more than 100 years, so little new information
has been developed, I have begun recently to look to
armorial bearings for clues. And, that the fret/fretty was
used for differentiation (as opposed to a primary element)
opens a new line of pursuit that could be extremely useful.
I didn't know that.
Thank you for this important information.
Rick Eaton
Voice: 203.453.6261 Fax:203.453.0076
----------
>From: "Chris Phillips" <c...@medievalgenealogy.org.uk>
>To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
>Subject: Re: Jane Nevill as ancestor of both Prince Charles and
Lady Diana Spencer
>Date: Fri, Aug 16, 2002, 12:12 PM
Janet Ariciu
To serve 4 to 6
1 Lb sauerkraut, fresh, canned or packaged
2 T lard
1 C finely chopped onions
¼ t finely chopped garlic
2 T sweet Hungarian paprika
3 Cs Chicken stock or water ( Chicken stock is best)
2 lbs boneless shoulder of pork cut into 1-inchs cubes
1 ½ t caraway seeds
¼ C tomato puree
Salt ( just to taste)
½ C sour cream
½ C heavy cream
1 T flour
Wash the sauerkraut thoroughly under cold water, then soak it in cold
water for 10 to 20 minutes to reduce its sourness
Melt the lard in a 5 qt casserole and add the onions. Cook them over
moderate heat, stirring occasionally, for 6 to 8 minutes, or until they are
lightly colored, then add the garlic and cook a minute or 2 longer. Off the
heat, stir in paprika, continuing to stir until the onions are well colored.
Pour in ½ cup of the stock or water and bring it to boil, the add the pork
cubes.
Now spread the sauerkraut over the port and sprinkle it with the caraway
seeds. In a small bowl, combine the tomato puree and the rest of the stock
or water, and pour the mixture over the sauerkraut. Bring the liquid to a
boil once more, then reduce the heat to its lowest point, cover the
casserole tightly and simmer for 1 hr. Check every now and then to make sure
the liquid has not cooked away. Add a little stock or water it has; the
sauerkraut should be moist
When the pork is tender, combine the sour cream and heavy cream in a
mixing bowl. Beat the flour into the cream with a wire whisk, then carefully
stir mixture into the casserole. Simmer for 10 minutes longer. Taste for
seasoning. Service Transylvanian Goulash in deep individual plates,
accompanied by a bowl of sour cream.
I like hot homemade bread or brown bread with dish. Per Janet
Miriam Ward
thanks!!
Miriam
--- Janet Ariciu <mon...@getgoin.net> wrote:
> Transylvanian Goulash
>
> To serve 4 to 6
>
> 1 Lb sauerkraut, fresh, canned or packaged
> 2 T lard
> 1 C finely chopped onions
> * t finely chopped garlic
> 2 T sweet Hungarian paprika
> 3 Cs Chicken stock or water ( Chicken stock is best)
> 2 lbs boneless shoulder of pork cut into 1-inchs
> cubes
> 1 * t caraway seeds
> * C tomato puree
> Salt ( just to taste)
> * C sour cream
> * C heavy cream
> 1 T flour
>
> Wash the sauerkraut thoroughly under cold water,
> then soak it in cold
> water for 10 to 20 minutes to reduce its sourness
> Melt the lard in a 5 qt casserole and add the
> onions. Cook them over
> moderate heat, stirring occasionally, for 6 to 8
> minutes, or until they are
> lightly colored, then add the garlic and cook a
> minute or 2 longer. Off the
> heat, stir in paprika, continuing to stir until the
> onions are well colored.
> Pour in * cup of the stock or water and bring it to
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com