Dear Whomever [
deca...@aol.com],
Would you mind sharing with SocGenMed your first name, or a nickname, or whatever name you'd like to be addressed by while we engage in this discussion?
My comments are interspersed.
On Wednesday, February 22, 2017 at 12:29:30 PM UTC-8,
deca...@aol.com wrote:
> Here are my references for Philippa Bonville, daughter of Sir William Bonville, K.G., 1st Lord Bonville!
> References:
> (1) Lake & Hotton. A Complete Parochial History of the County of Cornwall, Compiled from the Best Authorities & Corrected and Improved from Actual Survey. v. 2 (1868): p. 372 (author identifies Sir William Grenville’s second wife, Philippa, as “daughter of William, Lord Bonville de Chuton.”).
A 1868 source cannot establish the paternity of a 15th-century lady, unless it cites to an earlier source for it's statement.
> (2) Burke. A Genealogical and Heraldic History of the Landed Gentry; or, Commoners of Great Britain and Ireland v. 3 (1838): p. 4 (author states, “William Granville, of Stow, who died about the year 1450, leaving by Philippa, his second wife, daughter of William, Lord Bonville.”).
Ditto. Burke's doesn't cite sources for its pedigrees. That said, Burke's is an incredible 19th-century genealogical compilation, and it's a wonderful first source to go to when compiling a pedigree of the nobility or gentry. Many genealogists are perfectly happy to take it at its word, and research no further, which is of course their choice. Serious genealogists and enthusiasts of British medieval history (most longtime SocGenMed participants) know that the further back in time the pedigree extends, the less reliable Burke's becomes.
> (3) Dudley. A Supplement to the Peerage of England (1716): p. 243 (author states, “William, his Brother and Heir, to succeed, who died about the 29th of Henry VI. , leaving issue, by Philippa, his second wife, Daughter of William Lord Bonville, Thomas, his Son and Heir.”).
A 1716 source cannot establish the paternity of a 15th-century lady, and is only helpful if it quotes or cites an earlier source that can be followed up.
> (4) Gilbert. An Historical Survey of the County of Cornwall: To Which is Added a Complete Heraldry of the Same, with Numerous Engravings v. 2 (1820): p. 507 (author states, “William, his brother and heir, to succeed him, who died about the twenty-ninth of Henry VI, leaving issue by Philippa, his second wife, daughter of William Lord Bonville, Thomas his son and heir.”).
A 1820 source cannot establish the paternity of a 15th-century lady, and is only helpful if it quotes or cites an earlier source that can be followed up.
> (5) Roskell. The History of Parliament: The House of Commons 1386-1421 v. 2 (1992): pp. 284-288 (biog. of Sir William Bonville II) “These ties were to be strengthened by the marriage of Bonville’s son and heir, William, to Lord Harrington’s only child, and of two of his daughters, *Philippa* and Margaret, respectively to William Grenville … and William Courtenay … ”).
Todd has already explained that HOP relied on 19th-century genealogist John Lambrick Vivian for family details of the West Country 15th-century MPs. If Vivian made an error, then HOP carried it over. HOP's bio on John Grenville makes him the grandson of the 2nd Earl of Devon, which 14th-century primary documentation has subsequently shown to be incorrect. Nevertheless, HOP is a fantastic source to use for MPs of every century. In addition to providing biographical and political context to the MPs, HOP thoroughly cites to sources which can be followed up.
> (6) Fox. Chronicles of Tonedale: Two Centuries of Family History (1879): pp. 46-47a (Appendix V ped.) (author states in generation 5, “Philippa, daughter of William Lord Bonville, of Chuton, 2nd wife.”).
A 1879 source cannot establish the paternity of a 15th-century lady, and is only helpful if it quotes or cites an earlier source that can be followed up.
> (7) Rockwell. Eleven Centuries of the Remote Ancestry of the Rockwell Family (1914): pp. 31-39 (author states in the 18th generation of the Rockwell Genealogy, “Sir William Grenville, son of Margaret de Courtenay and Sir Theobald Greenville, married, Philippa, daughter of William Bonville.”).
A 1914 source cannot establish the paternity of a 15th-century lady, and is only helpful if it quotes or cites an earlier source that can be followed up.
> (8) Burke. Royal Descents and Pedigrees of Founders’ Kin (1864): (Royal Descent of Kingston, ped. XVIII) (author states, “Philippa, dau. of William, Lord Bonville.”).
The author of (8) is Sir Bernard Burke, the same as the author of (2), so see my comment above.
> (9) The New York Genealogical and Biographical Record v. 27 (1896): (author states under Ancestry of John Drake of Windsor, CT., “… and had Sir William, m. Philippa, dau. of Lord Wm. Bonville; …”).
A 1896 source cannot establish the paternity of a 15th-century lady, and is only helpful if it quotes or cites an earlier source that can be followed up.
> (10) Vivian. Vis. of Devon 1531, 1564 & 1620 (1895): pp. 101-103 (Bonville ped.) (author states, “Phillipa, mar. 1 William Grenville of Bideford,” and places her as the dau. of Sir William Bonville of Chewton and Margaret, da. of … Meriet.) (Margaret, da. of Meriet was correctly identified as Margaret dau. of Reynold Grey, Knt., 3rd Lord Grey of Ruthin) (identification of William Bonville’s 1st wife, Margaret Grey, made by Robert Behra based on Calendar Close Rolls, 1413-1419, p. 199).
Why would you cite to a source (Vivian) for the paternity of Philippa Bonville when you already know it's incorrect as to the paternity of Lady Margaret (Grey) Bonville? And as Todd has already pointed out, Vivian makes Philippa the sister of William Lord Bonville in his Grenville pedigree. Either he didn't realize his own contradiction, or he presented both alternatives to allow his subscribers to make up their own minds. In either case, it doesn't seem he researched these 15th-century Bonvilles and Grenvilles any further than the Visitation pedigrees.
That said, Vivian's works on the Devon and Cornwall Visitations contain much vital information once you get to the era of parish registers, and are weightier sources than Burke's.
> (11) Rogers. Strife of the Roses & Days of the Tudors in the West (1890): pp. 47–48 (author identifies Philippa Bonville, wife of William Grenville, as the daughter of William Bonville, first Lord Bonville).
A 1890 source cannot establish the paternity of a 15th-century lady, and is only helpful if it quotes or cites an earlier source that can be followed up.
> (12) Granville. History of the Granville Family (1895): pp. 56–57 (author states, “In the 24th year of the same reign he is mentioned in a deed with Philippa, his second wife, a daughter (sister?) of William, Lord Bonvill of Chuton, dated at Stowe 20th July.”) (Note: even though the query (sister?) appears in the text, Roger Granville identifies Philippa as the daughter of William, Lord Bonville in the pedigree chart found in his “Pedigree of the Granville family” at the end of the “History of the Granville Family" (1895) book).
That doesn't mean that Roger Granville had resolved the issue - there was no need for him to repeat the uncertainty he had already indicated within the text. A 1895 source cannot establish the paternity of a 15th-century lady, but at least it points to a 15th-century document which is very useful.
> (13) Dalton. The Collegiate Church of Ottery St. Mary (1917): p. 31 (author identifies Philippe Bonville, wife of William Grenville, as the daughter of William Bonville, first Lord Bonville).
A 1917 source cannot establish the paternity of a 15th-century lady, and is only helpful if it quotes or cites an earlier source that can be followed up.
> (14) National Genealogical Society Quarterly (NGSQ) v. 59 (1971): pp. 254–262 (author identifies Philippa Bonville, wife of William Grenville, as the daughter of William Bonville, first Lord Bonville).
A 1971 article cannot establish the paternity of a 15th-century lady, and is only helpful if it quotes or cites an earlier source that can be followed up.
> (15) Pole. Collections Towards a Description of the County of Devon (1791) pp. 387-388 (Grenville descent of the Manor of Bideford) (author states, “Wilm Grenvill his brother maried Thomazin, & unto his 2 wief Phelip, daughter of Wilm Lord Bonvill, & had issue Sr Thomas, . . .”).
Sir William Pole's work is a very useful source but no more so than a Visitation pedigree - it can be viewed as accurate, even authoritative, for the 17th-century generations contemporary to Pole, but only suggestive when it comes to earlier and medieval generations.
> (16) Faris Plantagenet Ancestry of Seventeenth-Century Colonists 1st Ed. (1996) p. 28 [see BONVILLE 9].
All the various editions of Plantagenet Ancestry are useful as starting off points in compiling a medieval pedigree, and many genealogists are happy to never research beyond it. Serious genealogists and enthusiasts of medieval history know that the pedigrees presented within it are only as the cited sources.
So of your sixteen sources above, only two are of any use: 1) Granville's 1895 work (which indicates uncertainty as to Philippa's parentage), because of the 15th-century deed it cites (the next step for you would be to obtain a full transcription of that deed), and 2) Pole, your earliest cited source, though it's already been pointed out that Sir William contradicts an earlier Grenville pedigree, from a Visitation some fifty years previous, which makes Philippa the sister, not the daughter, of William Lord Bonville. Pole makes no indication in his work as to why he contradicts Philippa's parentage, or even if he was aware that he was doing so.
Some weeks back when you first brought the topic to SocGenMed, I wrote: "The Close Roll entry cited by HOP confirms that Bonville and Margaret Grey of Ruthin were not yet married when the contract was drawn up in December 1414, and that Bonville had until Midsummer to make the marriage settlement. But even if the marriage followed immediately at Yuletide, the earliest a child could be born to the couple is late 1415, and Thomas Grenville was apparently born by 1428."
This would make Philippa a mother at no older than age thirteen. Thomas Grenville was born by 1428 because “In 27th Henry VI (1449) he is styled Thomas Greynvile, son and heir to William Greynvile, Esquire, and with Anne his wife, grants to Richard Ashrigge a tenement in Bideford" [Roger Granville, The History of the Granville Family (1895), p. 58]. Thomas could not have granted land unless he was of full age (21).
You replied: "It is also very likely that Philippa Bonville married when she was between 12 and 16 years of age (which is historically possible), especially given the time period and her social standing, no matter if she were the daughter of John Bonville, Thomas Bonville, or William Bonville, 1st Lord Bonville. Saying that she gave birth to her first known child between the ages of 13 and 16 is both biologically possible and not uncommon for the 15th century." You then cited Lady Margaret Beaufort as an example of a lady married at age 12 and a mother at age 13.
Lady Margaret Beaufort was a great heiress and important dynastically to King Henry VI. She most definitely is an exception. Indeed, Tudor impregnating her at such a young age is believed by many historians today to be the reason that she had no further children after Henry VII, despite a very long second marriage. Philippa Grenville we know went on to have further children after her son Thomas.
I'm sorry, but the chronology doesn't hold for Philippa to have been the daughter of Lady Margaret (Grey) Bonville. This of course doesn't prove that she was the sister of Lord Bonville, but there are several examples of medieval ladies not marrying until they were in their thirties. As a younger sister, there was no pressing need for Philippa to marry at all, and her mother (and later her eldest brother William Bonville) may have left it up to her to choose a husband. Whether the widower William Grenville was her own choice or that of her brother, Philippa was provided with a proper marriage portion.
Cheers, ------Brad