Re: provable descents from Byzantine emperors - who earliest?
Ford Mommaerts-Browne
From: "M.Sjostrom" <qs...@yahoo.com>
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 2:54 PM
Subject: provable descents from Byzantine emperors - who earliest?
>
> let's see about the situation at the time of the adolescent Theophano's
> marriage to Germany.
> <snip>
> Her marriage took place in springtime 972. She was sent by 'her uncle'
> emperor Ioannes some months earlier.
>
> The children of Romanos II were born in 959, 961 and 963. it is quite
> obvious, ... that Theophano was not one of them.
>
> The need in c971 to have an imperial bride to marry to Germany, came
> somewhat too early so no daughter of Romanos II would have been old
> enough.
> (actually, attestedly there was only one daughter of his... and that
> daughter was named Anna and her life is known.)
>
> one of points is that apprently, there were not much to choose from among
> 'eligible' families..... in the year 972.
> The process of elimination is somewhat helpful when the parentage of
> Theophano tries be identified
Nice job. I haven't seen process of elimination applied to this question
before - though that doesn't necessarily mean that it hasn't been done - but
it certainly helps to narrow the field of possibilities. What was Sherlock
Holmes' quote? Something like: When you have eliminated the impossible,
whatever is left, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.
Respectfuly,
Ford
M.Sjostrom
by the way, AFTER Romanos I,
(and, after /kaisar/ Bardas Phokas and after emperor Konstantinos IX and just before emperor Romanos IV)
one of next-early emperors to have more or less solidly proven progeny to the present day, was
Konstantinos X Doukas, emperor 1059-67
http://genealogics.org/descend.php?personID=I00303826&tree=LEO
M.Sjostrom
some descendants of /kaisar/ Bardas Phokas the old:
http://genealogics.org/descend.php?personID=I00215843&tree=LEO
His son was, 963-969, Emperor Nikephoros II
who made his elderly father a 'kaisar'
and his (younger) brother Leo Phokas as sort of Premier of Byzantine empire
-------------------------
this family was exceptionally competent. And, solidly, generation after generation.
Nikephoros Phokas was a great general
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00443479&tree=LEO
his son, kaisar Bardas Phokas, was a competent general
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00215843&tree=LEO
emperor Nikephoros II was a competent general
Leo Phokas was also a relatively good general
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00215844&tree=LEO
M.Sjostrom
it is not certain that emperor Konstantinos IX Monomakhos had any surviving children
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00027725&tree=LEO
But, looks quite obvious that he had a kinswoman, 'Anastasia', whose lineage continues to the present day.
That 'Anastasia' could possibly have been his daughter by his Skleraina wife - though, that very filiation is precisely something which is uncertain.
M.Sjostrom
some descendants of Romanos IV, emperor 1068-71
http://genealogics.org/descend.php?personID=I00399703&tree=LEO
Chuck Owens
> it is not certain that emperor Konstantinos IX Monomakhos had any surviving childrenhttp://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00027725&tree=LEO
>
> But, looks quite obvious that he had a kinswoman, 'Anastasia', whose lineage continues to the present day.
> That 'Anastasia' could possibly have been his daughter by his Skleraina wife - though, that very filiation is precisely something which is uncertain.
Yes. "Anastasia" Monomacha could have been a niece or a cousin as
well. There's simply no way to prove using existing data that she was
a daughter by one of the Sklerainas.
We have a similar problem with Theophano. We can use process of
elimination, onamastics, etc. but we are still left with only a
probable connection to Konstantinos Skleros at best. There's simply
not enough data to prove it.
The Emperor Leo V connection to Emp. Basil is even more sketchy. It
depends on Adontz's audacious hypothesis that "Leo the Armenian",
supposed ancestor of Emp. Basil was the same person as Emp. Leo V.
It's simply a shaky reconstruction built on very little evidence.
Chuck Owens
M.Sjostrom
my personal assessment of these is:
1) the filiation of emperor Basileios I's grandmother to emperor Leo V is incredible, and should be discarded in any respectable genealogies.
2) the filiation of 'Anastasia' Monomakhine to emperor Konstantinos IX and his Skleraina wife is possible, but not too likely. Any respectable genealogy should rather present 'Anastasia' as Konstantinos IX's kinswoman (such as, iece or something similar) - and lay out what are alternatives and likelihoods of filiation
3) the filiation of Theophano the western empress to Konstantinos Skleros and Sophia Phokaina is a good reconstruction, and its likelihood is higher than its 'unlikelihood' - so, a respectable genealogy imo can present this filiation, with an appropriate cautionary note
Chuck Owens
I agree on points 1 and 3. I'm unsure about point 2. since there
doesn't seem to be enough data in my opinion to evaluate the
likeliness or unlikeliness of the daughter option. Number 3. has the
best chance of actually being true.
Chuck Owens
Ford Mommaerts-Browne
----- Original Message -----
From: "M.Sjostrom" <qs...@yahoo.com>
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 3:49 AM
Subject: provable descents from Byzantine emperors - who earliest?
>
> it is not certain that emperor Konstantinos IX Monomakhos had any
> surviving children
> http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00027725&tree=LEO
>
> But, looks quite obvious that he had a kinswoman, 'Anastasia', whose
> lineage continues to the present day.
> That 'Anastasia' could possibly have been his daughter by his Skleraina
> wife - though, that very filiation is precisely something which is
> uncertain.
>
The best treatment of this thatI'VE seen is Lindsay Brook's piece in _The
Genealogist_, on the Byzantine acestry of HRH The Prince of Wales.
Save the Wales!
Ford
WJho...@aol.com
cance...@yahoo.com writes:
> The Emperor Leo V connection to Emp. Basil is even more sketchy. It
> depends on Adontz's audacious hypothesis that "Leo the Armenian",
> supposed ancestor of Emp. Basil was the same person as Emp. Leo V.
> It's simply a shaky reconstruction built on very little evidence.>>
I dont' think you mean "supposed here".
I think you mean Leo the Armenian the attested ancestor.
We do have a source stating his name. It's just that that source doesn't
state that he was the Emperor Leo. Just some Leo.
Will
Chuck Owens
> I dont' think you mean "supposed here".
> I think you mean Leo the Armenian the attested ancestor.
> We do have a source stating his name. It's just that that source doesn't
> state that he was the Emperor Leo. Just some Leo.
>
> Will
Actually I do mean "supposed". There are five generations between
Emp. Konstantinos VII and Leo the Armenian so the source is not
exactly contemporary. Since the source mentioning Leo the Armenian is
not contemporary, the info in it is not beyond a reasonable doubt.
Chuc
WJho...@aol.com
source. "Supposed" sounds too close to "modern speculation", it's too vague.
That was my point. There must be a word, that better clarifies that a source
exists, even if its doubtful.
In a message dated 11/14/2009 12:45:19 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
M.Sjostrom
perhaps:
claimed ancestor.
claimed, as in alleged by ancient ones to have been an ancestor. not by modern people only.
David Teague
Sounds like you're looking for something like the term "alleged."
David Teague
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Chuck Owens
Thanks,
Chuck
M.Sjostrom
some text I wrote for a biography of Theophano:
Theophano was born in c955, obviously as a scion of Byzantine high aristocracy.
She is in 971 attested as niece of Ioannes Tzimiskes, emperor of Rhomaion, the Byzantine empire which had Constantinople as its capital.
Otto I of Germany, the recently crowned western emperor, had wanted a porphyrogenneta princess as bride for his son Otto, the sixteen-year-old heir to the Holy Roman Emperor and already king of the Romans.
Porphyrogenete means a child born to emperor during his reign. However, in Byzantine empire, there at that time seemingly were no porphyrogenneta princess of suitable age, and besides the Byzantine were traditionally very reluctant to allow any porphyrogenneta princess to marry abroad.
Emperor Ioannes I sent his niece, Theophano, who at the time was in about her sixteenth year, to Italy for this marriage. The bride was not the desired maiden, as comments a German source of the time, presumably because she was not a porphyrogenneta.
The marriage proceeded however. Theophano arrived to her future country accompanied by a splendid entourage and magnificant gifts.
Their marriage had been arranged as part of a peace treaty between the Eastern and Western empires.
Theophano's exact genealogical relation to emperor Ioannes Tzimiskes is unknown. There however existed only few families in the emperor's close family circle which could have had her: children-bearing age in the 950s, high-born enough for the demands of the Germans, however not daughter of any emperor, and still the family in alliance with the emperor Ioannes.
A good reconstruction sets Theophano as daughter of the highly aristocratic family whose sister had been emperor Ioannes' first wife and who still were Ioannes' close allies (and promised heirs) in the internecine throne struggles in Byzantium. According to this reconstruction, Theophano's parents would have been Konstantinos Skleros and Sophia Phokaina.
This parentage for Theophano means that
* her uncle were Bardas, the intended future emperor,
* her one great-uncle had been the previous emperor, Nikephoros II, descending from the very competent Phokas family of warleaders,
* she were blood kin with emperor Ioannes through Sophia Phokaina, because Sophia's uncle emperor Nikephoros was mentioned as cousin of emperor Ioannes I,
* her grandmother came from the agnatic lineage of the younger brother of the long-earlier emperor Basileios I,
* her ancestors had claims to be descended from Armenian princely dynasties.
---------
My opinion is that the parentage to Konstantinos Skleros and Sophia Phokaina is more likely than not.
---------------
Theophano's parentage is somewhat uncertain, although it is more likely than not that she was member of the Skleros family.
The name Skleraina was not used of Theophano in any preserved near-contemporary documentation.
Whatever her parentage, the 'Skleraina' as word is somewhat fabricated.
Rather, let me say that to the recipient society, in the West, where Theophano settled, she was quite obviously of Constantinople. A toponym. And as niece of the emperor of Constantinople, the Constantinople was a perception of Theophano's 'family', as much as 'of France', 'of Burgundy' and analogical ones are of other ladies in similarly-situated marriages.
M.Sjostrom
protagonists mentioned in my previous post:
* Bardas Skleros, in 970s designated heir to emperorship as claimed
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00220748&tree=LEO
* his brother Konstantinos Skleros
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00080075&tree=LEO
* Sophia Phokaina, a somewhat remote cousin of emperor Ioannes I Tzimiskes
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00215845&tree=LEO
* the late emperor Nikephoros II, uncle of Sophia Phokaina, and a cousin of emperor Ioannes I
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00215846&tree=LEO
lineage of Gregoria, an agnatic great-x-grandniece of the late emperor Basileios I
http://genealogics.org/descend.php?personID=I00215848&tree=LEO
emperor Ioannes I, 'uncle' of Theophano
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00215873&tree=LEO
empress Theophano
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00080074&tree=LEO
emperor Otto I, of Germany - her future father-in-law
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00080076&tree=LEO
------
here
http://genealogics.org/descend.php?personID=I00027733&tree=LEO
family of the late emperor Romanos II - something Theophano seeming�y was NOT member of
(because, his daughter would have been a porphyrogenneta)
M.Sjostrom
about the HYPOTHESIZED descent of emperor Basileios I from emperor Leon V the Armenian:
Chris Bennett in 1995 sent a collection of arguments about this question (and a few other questions also present in ancestry of trhe Macedonian dynasty but not relevant to the solution of this very question):
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/1995-12/0819328964
As I gather it, Bennett is concluding that the hypothesis which *identifies* Basileios I's Armenian ancestor named Leo or Levon, with the emperor Leo, are unconving.
At the least, this warns any respectable genealogy that emperor Leo V should not be presented as direct ancestor of Basileios I,
because that identification is pretty weak.
--------
protagonists in this hypothesis:
Leo V, emperor in Constantinople
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00270689&tree=LEO
roots of emperor Basileios I
http://genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00215857&tree=LEO&parentset=0&display=standard&generations=3
Maiaktes (as the name is presented in Greek literature), apparently Hmayek in Armenian language, was the near-contemporary-claimed forefather (grandfather or so) of Basileios I.
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00270691&tree=LEO
This actually is the one which claim would be somewhat more plausible to have princely roots, than the concoction of having EMPEROR as great-grandfather of the man who rose from modest circumstances (being probably from something of a kind of a farmer family)
M.Sjostrom
ARMENIAN ANCESTRY OF THEOPHANO, EMPRESS OF THE WEST
--------------------------------------------------------
To continue the better-pinpointed interest of charting ancestors of the couple (Konstantinos Skleros and Sophia Phokaina) reconstrued plausibly as parents of empress Theophanu,
1) the question who was the biological father of emperor Leo VI the Wise, is not relevant. The Gregoria lineage passes via Basileios I's believed brother, and does not have Leo VI in the direct at all.
The ascension of Basileios I to the throne in late 860s brought his family to the highest strata of the empire. His sisters, brothers, cousins, and so forth.
*Officially*, Basileios' lineage continued as emperors for a long time, actually almost two centuries.
HIS family members and their children and grandchildren were officially cousins and relatives of the subsequent emperors. This made them desirable marriage matches for others in the upper strata: high aristocracy, highly wealthy, and the powerful.
In my assessment, it is perfectly plausible, even inevitable, that a female descendant of Basileios I's brother, would marry to a highly placed and wealthy family in 920s and so.
Actually, a highly aristocratic family in the early 900s would seek social prestige and some advancement by marrying a lady who is a second or third cousin of an emperor then on the throne.
So, Ph.Skleros marrying Gregoria is very plausible for the social position perspective, that Gregoria were a descendant of emperor Basioleios I's brother.
Then, Gregoria's and her Skleros husband's children are wealthy and well-placed in the aristocracy - also in terms of blood, because they are thusly blood relatives of the then emperors of the long-established imperial dynasty.
--------
an Armenian name, Hmayek (Maiaktes as the name is presented in Greek literature) was the near-contemporary-claimed forefather (grandfather or so) of Basileios I - and thusly of all of his full siblings.
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00270691&tree=LEO
this Maiaktes' some descendants:
http://genealogics.org/descend.php?personID=I00270691&tree=LEO
Konstantinos VII Porphyrogennetos, claimed that Basileios I's grandfather had been Maiaktes, i.e Hmayek.
That claim expands to other grandchildren of Hmayek too, in other words, siblings of Basileios I.
a certain Bardas is believed to have been one of brothers of emperor Basileios I.
Basileios 'the Rector' was son of this Bardas. Mentioned in the chronicle of Georgius Monachus Continuatus.
Bardas was son of Basileios 'the Rector', mentioned in chronicle of Theodoros Skutarites.
Gregoria (wife of Skleros) was daughter of this Bardas. mentioned in chronicle of Theodoros Skutariotes.
This Gregoria became the mother of that Skleros family, and IF (or as) empress Theophano, wife of Otto II, was a daughter of one of gregoria's children, then Theophano had that ancestry.
some descendants of Bardas, son of Basileios 'the Rector'
http://genealogics.org/descend.php?personID=I00417286&tree=LEO
* Gregoria's Skleros descendants 'are bound' to include those Skleraina ladies ('Helene' and Maria, one of whom *possibly* were the mother of 'Anastasia' Monomakhine, the mother of Vladimir Monomakh)
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00027062&tree=LEO
* Gregoria likely was an ancestress of Theophano, empress of the West
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00215873&tree=LEO
-------------
Although the name 'Hmayek' is somewhat frequent of armenians of those centuries, still it imo behooves to invoke the knowledge of what happens in several-centuries-interval to descent from a person who has descendants at all:
In three or four centuries, such person's descent gets expanded to almost all of the social class where he and his family lived. [wit: descents today from Charles II of England and Scotland; wit: descents in 1600s England from king Edward III]
It seems practically certain that some descendants of the Mamikonid's wife with Arsakid roots in Armenia, existed after three or so centuries from that very marriage. So, it follows that with high likelihood, almost all aristocracy of Armenia, and a good bunch of other Caucasian territories and Constantinople, were having this root in the 800s.
This Hmayek is thusly a plausible carrier of such descent.
As are the ancestors of the Armenia-rooted Skleros family - they actually are yet more likely to be of that high class.
By the way, the genealogy prepared by patriarch Photios (during the early era of the Macedonians on the throne) included claims that Basileios I descended from the first christian king of Armenia, an Arsakid
So, they had contemporary claims of uppermost-class Armenian descent.
wjhonson
> By the way, the genealogy prepared by patriarch Photios (during the early era of the Macedonians on the throne) included claims that Basileios I descended from the first christian king of Armenia, an Arsakid
> So, they had contemporary claims of uppermost-class Armenian descent.
Is this genealogy by Photios extant somewhere? I would like to see
the details of the attested descent from the Arsakids.
Will Johnson
M.Sjostrom
Will,
as I gather it, the *claims* in the Photius-prepared genealogy were claims, presumably over a long lineage without too much details, of *descent* from some much earlier monarchs.
I believe you will not find generation-to-generation details in that,
but rather, claims that this and that monarch was an ancestor,
and perhaps some furnishings of some intervening stages to decorate those stories.
Please understand that patriarch Photios, writing in some century, was not in a position to have personally seen what happened in previous century and earlier....
These claims spanned over half a millennium, at the least.
And that all is why I gave the appellation of 'claim', instead of some other term.
As to the direct and indirect availability of Photios work, you really should read that C.Bennett post which I linked.
M.Sjostrom
Settipani's collection about the descent between that requisite brother of emperor Basileios I and the Skleros family of mid-900s:
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2000-07/0963804644
Hans Lick
> some descendants of Romanos IV, emperor 1068-71http://genealogics.org/descend.php?personID=I00399703&tree=LEO
The site in question shows his first marriage but no descendants at
all.
I believe he did have children by his second wife, the Empress Eudoxia
(widow of Constantine X).
Jean Coeur de Lapin