Irish Mandeville, Mansfield
Michael O Hearn
believed the family arrived in Ireland from Wales sometime after the arrival of
Strongbow c.1170. They were cousins of the Burkes who governed Ireland at that
time. Many were exiled because of supporting the invasion of Edward Bruce, and
following the murder of one of the Burke nobility. Speculation is that some of
the Mandevilles became gaelicized and remained as Lords of the Route in the
North, while others arrived in the South probably around Waterford and the name
later became Mansfield as an anglicization of the gaelic pronounciation of
Mandeville.
Undoubtedly, the Irish Mandevilles were descended from Geoffrey de Mandeville
who accompanied William the Conqueror to England from Normandy and became earl
of Essex. The family is thought to originate at Magna Villa near the Seine
River in Normandy. Geoffrey apparently had one son named William whose son
Geoffrey became an outlaw in the fens because of supporting the empress
Matilda, daughter of Henry I, and vacillating in his allegiance to Stephen.
His son William married Hawise. Countess of Aumale became count of Aumale in
Normandy. At the time of the Magna Carta, the remaining English heirs include
William de Mandeville, who witnessed the execution of the document, and
Geoffrey who was a surety, both earls of Essex, descend from Maude, daughter of
Geoffrey the outlawed earl and his wife Rohese de Vere, and her husband Piers
de Lutegareshale. Their son Geoffrey Fitzpiers through his marriage with
Christine Fitzrobert became the father of the aforementioned earls William and
Geoffrey before the time of Magna Carta in 1215.
Michael O'Hearn
Tim Powys-Lybbe
mcmc...@aol.com (Michael O Hearn) wrote:
> In Down and Antrim, Mandevilles were Lords of the Route. Traditionally
> it is believed the family arrived in Ireland from Wales sometime after
> the arrival of Strongbow c.1170. They were cousins of the Burkes who
> governed Ireland at that time. Many were exiled because of supporting
> the invasion of Edward Bruce, and following the murder of one of the
> Burke nobility. Speculation is that some of the Mandevilles became
> gaelicized and remained as Lords of the Route in the North, while others
> arrived in the South probably around Waterford and the name later became
> Mansfield as an anglicization of the gaelic pronounciation of
> Mandeville.
>
> Undoubtedly, the Irish Mandevilles were descended from Geoffrey de
> Mandeville who accompanied William the Conqueror to England from
> Normandy and became earl of Essex.
A J Camp's "My ancestors came with the Conqueror" excludes Geoffrey from
their number.
> The family is thought to originate at Magna Villa near the Seine River
> in Normandy. Geoffrey apparently had one son named William whose son
> Geoffrey became an outlaw in the fens because of supporting the empress
> Matilda, daughter of Henry I, and vacillating in his allegiance to
> Stephen.
This Geoffrey was the first earl of Essex.
> His son William married Hawise. Countess of Aumale became count of
> Aumale in Normandy.
True. But her second and third husbands also became counts of Aumale.
William was the third earl of Essex.
> At the time of the Magna Carta, the remaining English heirs include
> William de Mandeville, who witnessed the execution of the document,
I can't see this on the photograph I have of the document sealed by King
John in 1215 at Runnymede.
> and Geoffrey who was a surety, both earls of Essex, descend from Maude,
> daughter of Geoffrey the outlawed earl
These two Mandevilles were not descended from Geoffrey first earl of
Essex. They were descended from Geoffrey's sister Beatrice who had
married William de Say.
> and his wife Rohese de Vere, and her husband Piers de Lutegareshale.
Which "her" was the wife of this Piers?
In fact these two Mandevilles were the sons of Beatrice de Say,
grand-daughter of Beatrice de Mandeville and William de Say.
Beatrice de Say married Geoffrey fitz Piers, son of Piers de
Lutegareshale and a Maud whose parentage is not known.
> Their son Geoffrey Fitzpiers through his marriage with Christine Fitzrobert
This Geoffrey married first the above Beatrice de Say and second Aveline
de Clare.
> became the father of the aforementioned earls William and Geoffrey before
> the time of Magna Carta in 1215.
William and Geoffrey both took the name of Mandeville and neither of
them had any descendants.
So where's the Irish connection?
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a patchwork of bygones: http://powys.org
Todd A. Farmerie
> In Down and Antrim, Mandevilles were Lords of the Route. Traditionally it is
> believed the family arrived in Ireland from Wales sometime after the arrival of
> Strongbow c.1170. They were cousins of the Burkes who governed Ireland at that
> time. Many were exiled because of supporting the invasion of Edward Bruce, and
> following the murder of one of the Burke nobility. Speculation is that some of
> the Mandevilles became gaelicized and remained as Lords of the Route in the
> North, while others arrived in the South probably around Waterford and the name
> later became Mansfield as an anglicization of the gaelic pronounciation of
> Mandeville.
This is unlikely, as Mansfield is a perfectly valid toponym on
its own, and need not derive from any more famous name.
> At the time of the Magna Carta, the remaining English heirs include
> William de Mandeville, who witnessed the execution of the document, and
> Geoffrey who was a surety, both earls of Essex, descend from Maude, daughter of
> Geoffrey the outlawed earl and his wife Rohese de Vere, and her husband Piers
> de Lutegareshale. Their son Geoffrey Fitzpiers through his marriage with
> Christine Fitzrobert became the father of the aforementioned earls William and
> Geoffrey before the time of Magna Carta in 1215.
Geoffrey Fitz Piers was only related to the Mandevilles by
marriage, not descent. Your version, that Geoffrey's mother Maud
was a Mandeville, is an unfortunate misreading of a chart in CP,
whering just for the sake of graphical arrangement, Maud and
Piers are placed underneath a horizontal line which connects the
children of Earl Geoffrey and Rohese. However, neither Maud not
Piers are connected to that line, a detail which several
compilers of descents have failed to notice. There is clear
contemporary documentation that Geoffrey Fitz Piers owed his land
and Essex title to the King having granted him the marriage of
Beatrice, grand-niece of the earlier Geoffrey, husband of Rohese.
Likewise, Geoffrey Fitz Piers did not marry a Christine Fitz
Robert. His actual spouses were Beatrice de Say (the Mandeville
heiress) and Avelina de Clare. THere are no known descendants of
Geoffrey Fitz Piers who bore the name Mandeville beyond the first
generation (his only son who had issue of his own was born to the
second marriage, and having no Mandeville descent did not use the
name.
Any descendants of the first Geoffrey who bore the Mandeville
name probably came from the senior line, descending from the
disinherited Ernulf de Mandeville, eldest son of Geoffrey and
Rohese, or else otherwise unnoticed younger siblings or uncles of
this Earl Geoffrey. Among these, apparently, was a claimant to
the Scottish crown.
taf
Michael O Hearn
>John in 1215 at Runnymede.
He is a signatory per a translation of the document.
>Which "her" was the wife of this Piers?
Maud, daughter of earl Geoffrey.
>William and Geoffrey both took the name of Mandeville and neither of
>them had any descendants.
>
>So where's the Irish connection?
Obviously one of history's mysteries.
Michael O'Hearn
Michael O Hearn
>its own, and need not derive from any more famous name.
Need not, but presumably has in most (if not all) Irish cases due to the
circumstances of the Mandeville expulsion from Ulster at about the time of the
appearance of Mandeville/Mansfield in Waterford and Tipperary. The
aforementioned phonetic similarity with spoken Irish is of course not
conclusive proof but rather explanatory of what appears to be the evolution of
the name in Ireland.
>Geoffrey Fitz Piers was only related to the Mandevilles by
>marriage, not descent. Your version, that Geoffrey's mother Maud
>was a Mandeville, is an unfortunate misreading of a chart in CP,
>whering just for the sake of graphical arrangement, Maud and
>Piers are placed underneath a horizontal line which connects the
>children of Earl Geoffrey and Rohese. However, neither Maud not
>Piers are connected to that line, a detail which several
>compilers of descents have failed to notice. There is clear
>contemporary documentation that Geoffrey Fitz Piers owed his land
>and Essex title to the King having granted him the marriage of
>Beatrice, grand-niece of the earlier Geoffrey, husband of Rohese.
>
>Likewise, Geoffrey Fitz Piers did not marry a Christine Fitz
>Robert. His actual spouses were Beatrice de Say (the Mandeville
>heiress) and Avelina de Clare. THere are no known descendants of
>Geoffrey Fitz Piers who bore the name Mandeville beyond the first
>generation (his only son who had issue of his own was born to the
>second marriage, and having no Mandeville descent did not use the
>name.
>
Thanks for that explanation. It took a while for me to grasp even though I had
reviewed the previous threads from 1996. My point btw was not to prove actual
paternal descent.
>Any descendants of the first Geoffrey who bore the Mandeville
>name probably came from the senior line, descending from the
>disinherited Ernulf de Mandeville, eldest son of Geoffrey and
>Rohese, or else otherwise unnoticed younger siblings or uncles of
>this Earl Geoffrey. Among these, apparently, was a claimant to
>the Scottish crown.
>
Perhaps the source of the Antrim and Down Mandevilles.
Michael O'Hearn
Michael O Hearn
of conclusions. Consulting Burke's General Armory, it appears that a Mansfield
family in Kildare descends from Walter Mansfield of Waterford County c.1600.
These Mansfields apparently originated in the town of Mansfield in
Nottinghamshire were unrelated to the Anglo-Norman de Mandevilles of Essex.
The Mandevilles of Antrim and Down were Lords of the Route who apparently
opposed the invasion of Edward Bruce.
Although it has been claimed that MacQuillans are the gaelicized Mandevilles,
there is nothing of descent from Hugelin de Mandeville if such a person ever
existed. Rather, it appears likely that they were Scottish mercenaries called
galloglasses insofar as about this time period Richard de Mandeville conducted
raids on the Isle of Man with both Irish and Scottish freebooters, and they may
indeed have been related by marriage to both the O'Neills and Mandevilles for
which their descent is variously claimed. MacQuillans also appears in Western
Scotland about this time.
This may be the same Richard de Mandeville who married Gyles de Burgo and was
encouraged by her to murder the Brown Earl William de Burgo of Ulster in 1333
apparently in retaliation for the starvation death of her brother Walter while
he was held in prison by William. The aftermath was that the Mandevilles were
expelled and emerge about this time in Counties Waterford and Tipperary where
their name continues to be found throughout the 14th and 15th centuries, after
which time the Mansfields begin to outnumber the Mandevilles perhaps because of
assimilation due to an incorrect usage of the gaelic form of Mandeville for
Mansfield making the names almost interchangeable. Another family of de
Maydewell arrived from England after this time and may have adopted the name
Mandeville in addition to the name Moydir in Tipperary.
Michael O'Hearn
Reedpcgen
Rafe/Ralph Mansfield, who went to Ireland in the service of the Earl of Essex
and later joined in the Plantation of Ulster.
He was son of Lancelot Mansfield of Yokrshire by Anne Eure, sister of Lord
Eure. They have nothing to do with the Mandeville descent.
Paul
Renia
Mansfield families and no Mandeville families..
Mansfield of Morristown Lattin claims decent from the Mansfields of Nottingham, the
first to land in Ireland being Sir Rodolphus Mansfield temp Henry II.
The family of Mansfield of Castle Wray descend from Ralph Mansfield, a Captain in
the Army, granted lands by James I in 1614, who must be the Ralph Mansfield of whom
Paul Reed writes.
Renia