King Samuel Aba of Hungary ?
Leo
I received some biographical details for Countess Claudine Rhédey de Kis-Rhéde, grandmother of Queen Mary who is the grandmother of Queen Elizabeth II.
"One of her predecessors was Francis Rhédey (1610-1667), Prince of Transylvania (1657-1658)." I checked and he is not an ancestor as I have the Rhedey line well and truly past the year 1600. But how is he related?
I Googled "Prince of Transylvania" And in a very interesting and helpful list I found him. Apparently with the support of King Charles X of Sweden he removed Georg II Rakoczi and became prince of Transylvania but Georg pushed back and again became the ruling prince. A remark was recorded by Francis Rhedey "He was a descendant from the Royal House of Aba - King Samuel Aba of Hungary".
Well, if he is a descendant of King Samuel Aba of Hungary, so _could be_ Claudine Rhedey and Prince William of Wales. Sadly for me, I do not have a King Samuel Aba of Hungary in my system. And so I googled him.
There are a few entries, all leading to a Rob Salzman whose site I found slightly confusing, but that is just me.
According to ES II Tafel 153, here I found him.
Aba (baptised as Samuel) king of Hungary in 1041, murdered July/August 1044.
Descendants : genus Aba
His unnamed mother (Rob Salzman calls her Sarolta) was a daughter of Geza and his second wife Adelajda of Poland. Geza married about 985 and the unnamed daughter was born about 987.
I have two questions, how is Francis Rhedey related to Claudine, and is there a record of the "Royal House of Aba"?
With many thanks,
Leo van de Pas,
Canberra, Australia
t...@clearwire.net
> There are a few entries, all leading to a Rob Salzman whose site I found slightly confusing, but that is just me.
>
> According to ES II Tafel 153, here I found him.
> Aba (baptised as Samuel) king of Hungary in 1041, murdered July/August 1044.
> Descendants : genus Aba
>
> His unnamed mother (Rob Salzman calls her Sarolta) was a daughter of Geza and his second wife Adelajda of Poland. Geza married about 985 and the unnamed daughter was born about 987.
>
This is a little confused. Aba (baptized as Samuel) married the
daughter of Geza. The name of his wife is unknown. Hungarian sources
give Geza one wife, Sarolta. Polish sources marry him to Adelaide.
Given this disparity, it is uncertain who Samuel's mother-in-law was.
> I have two questions, how is Francis Rhedey related to Claudine, and is there a record of the "Royal House of Aba"?
I believe Szabolcs de Vajay has done significant work on these
Hungarian noble families, but I can't give a specific citation.
taf
Leo
Aba baptised as Samuel married a daughter of Geza, and so is a son-in-law
not a grandson.
I understand that two of his sons are named, but there are at least 29
claimed branches of his descendants.
I shudder to think of how these are recorded and how reliable the details
are.
I am told that Simon of K�za was the first major chronicler of the royal
dynasty, but I don't know when he lived.
It looks like a dead end, sadly.
Many thanks.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
taf
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Leo:
There's a detailed pedigree of the Rhédey family on Miroslav Marek's
Genealogy.EU website. It starts here:
http://genealogy.euweb.cz/hung/rhedey1.html
Click through to the second page of the pedigree, which starts with
Pál (living 1562-90). Through Pál's eldest son, another Pál, you can
trace the descent to Claudine. Pál's younger son Ferenc is the father
of your man Ferenc [Francis in English).
I can't immediate see an ancestral line to King Samuel (or Aba), but I
didn't look too hard....
M.Sjostrom
the way things were done in such high-medieval societies,
a family's claim to descend from a given king, might as well have been a political statement, rather than a statement for a genealogy in this 'universe' where we mind about such things as filiation and parentage in each generation, step by step.
There are some high-medieval examples where quite likely, an ambitious person or family practically just picked an earlier king and started to claim descent from him.
---------
I have understood that the Rhedei family was one of those several which claimed an agnatic descent from (= membership of) the clan Aba.
But, apparently, the precise claimed lineage might be pretty hazy between 11th century and 13th century. Quite likely, in that interval, there will be serious reliability concerns, if you happen to encounter any preciser pedigree from Aba himself to the Rhedey.
------------------
I am curious, whether the primary sources actually attest for the maternity of the chronicled sons of Samuel Aba. Whether they are mentioned as sons of the Arpad lady who was a wife of Samuel Aba.
This curiosity is because quite possibly, Samuel Aba would have had children born of various women - if I have understood correctly the customs of Magyars of those pagan and semi-pagan days.
------------------
GreGG
> Well, if he is a descendant of King Samuel Aba of Hungary, so _could be_ Claudine Rhedey and Prince William of Wales. Sadly for me, I do not have a King Samuel Aba of Hungary in my system. And so I googled him.
>
> There are a few entries, all leading to a Rob Salzman whose site I found slightly confusing, but that is just me.
>
> According to ES II Tafel 153, here I found him.
> Aba (baptised as Samuel) king of Hungary in 1041, murdered July/August 1044.
> Descendants : genus Aba
>
> His unnamed mother (Rob Salzman calls her Sarolta) was a daughter of Geza and his second wife Adelajda of Poland. Geza married about 985 and the unnamed daughter was born about 987.
According to the Hungarian Wiki, Aba Samuel was the chieftain of the
Khabar tribe, which separated from the Khazar Empire and has settled
down in what is now Northern Hungary. King Stephen I younger sister
(probably Gizella, but this is not certain) became his wife. After king
Stephen I died, his appointed heir Peter Orseolo (son of the Venetian
doge and Istvan's older sister) became the king of Hungary, but in 1041,
as a result of a revolt of Hungarian landlords, Peter had to escape to
the court of king Henry III. Aba Samuel was elected as king. After a
short reign, he was killed in or right after the battle of Menfo in 1044.
He has never been crowned as a king.
pavel....@seznam.cz
> On Jun 9, 3:05 pm, "Leo" <leovd...@netspeed.com.au> wrote:
>
>
> > His unnamed mother (Rob Salzman calls her Sarolta) was a daughter of Geza and his second wife Adelajda of Poland. Geza married about 985 and the unnamed daughter was born about 987.
>
> This is a little confused. Aba (baptized as Samuel) married the
> daughter of Geza. The name of his wife is unknown. Hungarian sources
> give Geza one wife, Sarolta. Polish sources marry him to Adelaide.
> Given this disparity, it is uncertain who Samuel's mother-in-law was.
>
I believe the main source is the Hungarian-Polish Chronicle (which
definitly is not known for its accuracy) with some later Polish
sources dependent on the Chronicle. Balzer identifies Adelaide with
Thietmar's Beleknegini and, while noting that Hungarian sources are
silent on the existence of any other Geza's wife beside Sarolta, he
considers Adelaide to be a second wife of Geza. AFAIK this view is no
more supported by modern Polish historians and Jasiński in his work on
Early Piasts clearly dismisses Adelaide as fiction, describing sources
that mention her as late and delusory.
Regards,
Pavel
CCer
Hi,
I just came across this discussion thread.
Re the above, you may find the answer at www.rhedey.tribalpages.com
kind regards
Laszlo (George) Rhedey
Gosford, Australia
Hans Lick
As you undoubtedly are aware (the case of Aba-Samuel is a case in
point), in the era of conversion, those who converted would take a
"Christian" name, usually that of a saint, upon baptism. Accordingly,
chroniclers might well refer to a lady of high birth as both Sarolta
-- her birth name -- and Adelaide -- her baptismal name. Several
personages of this era are known to history by more than one name for
this (or other) reasons.
I'm not saying that is the case with Sarolta and Adelaide -- just that
when a person of the time has two names, one obviously tribal and
pagan and the other saintly, I usually don't think anyone has made a
mistake.
Jean Coeur de Lapin