Greyndour ancestry for Alice Walwyn, per VCH-Glouc.
Jim Weber
Douglas Richardson in a post to SGM, 1 Feb 2004, gave the following
information for Alice Walwyn: Alice Walwyn (daughter of William
Walwyn), d. 22 Oct 1518, wife of (1) Thomas Baynham of Mitcheldean, d.
16 Feb 1499/00; (2) bef. 10 Nov 1503, Walter Dennis, of Olveston, d. 1
Sep 1505.
Alice has been mentioned several other times on SGM, and a small
account is given of her by CP III:152, in its article on the Barony of
Chaundos, to which her son-in-law (husband of her daughter Isabel),
Giles Brugge or Bruggis of Cubberley, was an heir.
I have been reading, online at www.british-history.ac.uk, the
VCH-Gloucester accounts of the manors of Mitcheldean and Clearwell (in
Newland). The account of Clearwell/Newland, even though it never
mentions the name Walwyn, is obviously addressing the same Alice
indicated in the post above, and connecting her with the Greyndour
family, of which she was the heir. However, VCH-Gloucester does not
state what the exact relationship is.
Does anyone know what the exact connection is between the Walwyn and
Greyndour families in Alice's ancestry.
NOTE: I have found on the internet (no sources given) that Alice's
great grandfather, William Walwyn, d. bef. 1452, married Joan
Greyndour, d. Nov 1461. Also I find a lot of references to Alice's son
Christopher as "of Glowerwall". When I google Glowerwall, all that I
come up with is a list of people's genealogical lines on the Baynham
family (not a good sign, in my opinion, certainly not an indication
that I will ever find out where it is). Is Glowerwall an alternate
spelling of Clearwell?
Thanks for any help,
Jim Weber
Accounts of the portions of the articles concerning Alice are given
below:
MITCHELDEAN:
[Earlier part traces the descent through the Dene & Baynham families]
"Robert [Baynham]'s son and heir Thomas, a minor, (Footnote 4) by 1471
also held the other part of the manor, together with Abenhall, in the
right of his second wife Alice Walwyn. At his death in 1500 his own
part passed to Sir Alexander Baynham, his son by his first marriage..."
[From: 'Mitcheldean', A History of the County of Gloucester: Volume V:
Bledisloe Hundred, St. Briavels Hundred, The Forest of Dean (1996),
pp. 173-95. URL:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=23259. Date
accessed: 26 June 2005]
CLEARWELL (in NEWLAND):
[Earlier part traces the descent through the Joce family]
"John Joce the elder and John Joce the younger were mentioned in 1365,
(Footnote 24) and the younger was presumably the man who with his wife
Isabel made a settlement of a large estate in Newland and adjoining
parishes in 1378. (Footnote 25) John died before 1389, (Footnote 26)
and before 1395 Isabel married John Greyndour, (Footnote 27) who died
in 1415 or 1416. (Footnote 28) Greyndour evidently secured an
unrestricted title to his wife's estate, which from the early 15th
century was known as the manor of CLEARWELL, the chief residence and
most of the demesne lands being by then situated in Clearwell tithing.
John was succeeded by Robert Greyndour, his son by his first wife
Marion. (Footnote 29) Robert Greyndour (d. 1443) was jointly enfeoffed
of the estate with his wife Joan, (Footnote 30) who married before 1455
(Footnote 31) John Barre. John died in 1483 (Footnote 32) and Joan in
1484, when the Clearwell estate passed to Robert's heir Alice, the wife
of Thomas Baynham (Footnote 33) (d. 1500) (Footnote 34) and later of
Sir Walter Dennis (d. 1505 or 1506). Alice (d. 1518) was succeeded by
her son Sir Christopher Baynham, (Footnote 35) and Sir Christopher was
succeeded in the estate, apparently in his lifetime, by his son George
Baynham. (Footnote 36) George, who was knighted in 1546 and died that
year, (Footnote 37) left the estate to his son Christopher, who was a
minor in the king's custody in 1548. (Footnote 38) From Christopher
(fl. 1555) (Footnote 39) it passed, probably by 1558, (Footnote 40) to
his brother Richard (d. 1580), who was succeeded by another brother
Thomas (Footnote 41) (d. 1611). (Footnote 42) Thomas Baynham settled
his estates in Newland and the adjoining parishes on his elder daughter
Cecily, wife of Sir William Throckmorton, Bt., while his younger
daughter Joan, wife of John Vaughan, received estates that he owned
elsewhere in the Forest area. (Footnote 43)"
[From: 'Newland', A History of the County of Gloucester: Volume V:
Bledisloe Hundred, St. Briavels Hundred, The Forest of Dean (1996),
pp. 195-231. URL:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=23260. Date
accessed: 26 June 2005]
Tim Powys-Lybbe
> Dear Group,
>
> Douglas Richardson in a post to SGM, 1 Feb 2004, gave the following
> information for Alice Walwyn: Alice Walwyn (daughter of William
> Walwyn), d. 22 Oct 1518, wife of (1) Thomas Baynham of Mitcheldean, d.
> 16 Feb 1499/00; (2) bef. 10 Nov 1503, Walter Dennis, of Olveston, d. 1
> Sep 1505.
>
> Alice has been mentioned several other times on SGM, and a small
> account is given of her by CP III:152, in its article on the Barony of
> Chaundos, to which her son-in-law (husband of her daughter Isabel),
> Giles Brugge or Bruggis of Cubberley, was an heir.
>
> I have been reading, online at www.british-history.ac.uk, the
> VCH-Gloucester accounts of the manors of Mitcheldean and Clearwell (in
> Newland). The account of Clearwell/Newland, even though it never
> mentions the name Walwyn, is obviously addressing the same Alice
> indicated in the post above, and connecting her with the Greyndour
> family, of which she was the heir. However, VCH-Gloucester does not
> state what the exact relationship is.
>
> Does anyone know what the exact connection is between the Walwyn and
> Greyndour families in Alice's ancestry.
Nothing exact, of course, but there is a farily extensive pedigree of
the Baynhams, Grendoures aand Walwyns in the Glos 1623 visitaiton
of1623, pp. 12-16. Some of these visitation pedigrees were pretty
accurate and quite a few had rubbish in them, but they give you a good
start for things to check on:
www.uk-genealogy.org.uk/england/Gloucestershire/visitations/p22.html
(The above should be all one line, or stich it together to be such in
yoru browser.)
You would be well advised to read through the introduction to this
book as it gieves an account of where the information comes from.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
John Higgins
of the warning signs that have caused Tim Powys-Lybbe, among others, to
repeatedly warn against over-reliance on these extended pedigrees in the
visitations.
In this pedigree Alice Walwyn is given one husband, not the usual two
(Thomas Baynham but not Walter Dennis). She is said to be a dau. of Thomas
Walwyn (who mar. a Grendoure), but with a note indicating that another
Harleian MS says she was dau. of William Walwyn of Bickerton, Herefordshire.
The Grendoure ancestry that is given in the pedigree matches somewhat, but
certainly not exactly, with the details given in VCH Gloucs and cited
earlier in this thread..
It would be nice if this visitation pedigree were indeed accurate
but....caveat lector.
Tim Powys-Lybbe
> The Walwyn pedigree in the 1623 Gloucestershire visitation has at
> least some of the warning signs that have caused Tim Powys-Lybbe,
> among others, to repeatedly warn against over-reliance on these
> extended pedigrees in the visitations.
>
> In this pedigree Alice Walwyn is given one husband, not the usual two
> (Thomas Baynham but not Walter Dennis). She is said to be a dau. of
> Thomas Walwyn (who mar. a Grendoure), but with a note indicating that
> another Harleian MS says she was dau. of William Walwyn of Bickerton,
> Herefordshire. The Grendoure ancestry that is given in the pedigree
> matches somewhat, but certainly not exactly, with the details given
> in VCH Gloucs and cited earlier in this thread..
And then you have to decide which is more accurate, the visitation
pedigree or the VCH - I have not found the VCH authors to be wholly
reliable.
> It would be nice if this visitation pedigree were indeed accurate
> but....caveat lector.
The problem here is what the editors were trying to do. Some were
trying to give the best pedigree they could from whatever manuscripts
they could lay their hands on. A significant problem was that until
about 30 years ago, they were not allowed to directly use the originals
in the College of Arms. The more recent editors have seen it as their
job to give an accurate rendering of the surviving visitation docuemnt,
albeit with the odd additional information in italics. I believe most
of the recent visitation publications to be very accurate in this
respect. This is why it is so important to read the introduction to
each separate volume to see what the editors were doing.
Of course what you really meant was to get an accurate pedigree of the
families reported in visitations: don't we all wish for that!
Jim Weber
>
> And then you have to decide which is more accurate, the visitation
> pedigree or the VCH - I have not found the VCH authors to be wholly
> reliable.
>
Tim,
I agree with you that both sources have to be examined (and hopefully
even more sources can be found), for there seem to be some flaws in the
VCH-Gloucs account of the descent for the Clearwell/Newland property.
There are at least two "hand-wavings":
(1) How did the John Greyndour "evidently secure" his 2nd wife's
estates (and leave them to his son by his first wife), which she had
probably at most acquired a dowager's right to the lands of her first
husband John Joce (d. bef. 1389). The VCH introduction to the Manor of
Clearwell indicated that the Joce family held large estates in the
Newland area through the 14th and 15th centuries, so there must have
been quite a few uncles, aunts, and cousins willing and ready to take
possession of Clearwell, after Isabel's death, based on their blood
relationsip to her husband John Joce.
(2) The second gap is the explanation of how Alice ended up being heir
of Robert Greyndour. The VCH account for Clearwell doesn't even go as
far as the VCH account for Mitcheldean, in giving Alice a surname
(Walwyn).
The Visitation of Gloucestershire at least gives a credible descent
(though undoubtedly somewhat innaccurate) in terms of explaining how
the property ended up with Alice Walwyn. But it is hard to marry the
information from the two sources into a single scenario.
Starting with the William Joce (listed 2nd in the Visitation), the
Visitation line starts out following the VCH line fairly well (all
dates below come from VCH):
1. William Joyce/Joce of Newland, fl. 128 (VoG, VCH)
1.1 Philip Joyce/Joce, of Newland by 1320 (VoG, VCH)
1.1.1 John Joyce/Joce. d. aft. 1365 (VoG, VCH)
1.1.1.1 John Joce, d.<1389 m. Isabel m. John Greyndour,d.1415/6(VCH)
1.1.1.2 Margaret Joyce m. Robert Grendoure (VoG)
1.1.1.2.1 Lawrance Grendoure m. Margaret of Abrahall (VoG)
1.1.1.2.1.1 John Grendoure m. Marion Hatway (VoG)
1.1.1.2.1.1.1 Robert Grendoure (VoG)
1.1.1.2.1.1.2 Elizabeth Grendoure m. Thomas Walwyn (VoG)
1.1.1.2.1.1.2.1 Alice Walwyn m. Thomas Baynham (VoG)
The BIG difference between VCH & VoG is that VCH has the John Greyndour
who m. Marion (no surname per VCH) and had Robert, be the SAME John who
m. Isabel, widow of John Joce; Marion was John's first wife (mother of
Robert, his heir) and Isabel was his second (heiress who brought him
his property). Of course VCH doesn't mention Margaret Joce & the elder
Robert Grendoure, Lawrance Grendoure & Margaret of Abrahall, or
Elizabeth Grendoure and Thomas Walwyn, nor do they give Alice Walwyn a
surname, but do identify her as Robert's eventual heir.
According to VCH, John Joce (the younger) was first mentioned in 1365
along with his father, so he was probably of age and born before 1344.
Alice was m. 1stly "bef. 1471", so she may have been b. 1450/5. That
puts a little over a hundred years between John Joce & Alice Walwyn,
which is reasonable for the four generations that VoG places between
them. VCH doesn't explain how their descent works, but they seem to
eliminate two of the generations that VoG has (by making the two John
Greyndours above as one person).
The key is whether Isabel, widow of John Joce, married the John
Greyndour identified by VCH. The VCH sources for the death of John
Joce & marriage of his widow to John Greyndour are:
"26 N.L.W., Dunraven MSS. 325.
27 Ibid. 324; cf. Cal. Pat. 1441-6, 388."
Oh Well,
Jim Weber
Chris Phillips
Jim Weber wrote:
> The key is whether Isabel, widow of John Joce, married the John
> Greyndour identified by VCH. The VCH sources for the death of John
> Joce & marriage of his widow to John Greyndour are:
>
> "26 N.L.W., Dunraven MSS. 325.
> 27 Ibid. 324; cf. Cal. Pat. 1441-6, 388."
>
> Oh Well,
The Patent Roll reference is actually available online, courtesy of Prof. G.
R. Boynton and the University of Iowa Libraries:
http://www.uiowa.edu/~acadtech/patentrolls/
Licence for Joan, late the wife Robert Greyndour, esquire, to found a
perpetual chantry in the parish church of All Saints, Neweland, in the
forest of Dene, co. Gloucester, in the diocese of Hereford, at the altar of
St. John the Baptist and St Nicholas in the same church, of one chaplain
to celebrate divine service for the good estate of the said Joan and
Reynold West, knight, lord la Warre, and Elizabeth his wife, and for
their souls after death and for the souls of the said Robert, John
Greyndour, knight, his father and Marion his mother, and of Isabel late
John's wife, Thomas Rugge, esquire, the father, and Katharine his wife,
the mother of the said Joan, John Joce late husband of Isabel, Hawisia
Bytton sometime the wife of John Bytton, knight, the elder, John Bytton,
knight, grandfather of the said Joan, Alice Sturye, John Sergeaunt,
Edmund Forde and Joan his wife, and for the souls of the kinsfolk,
friends and benefactors of the said Joan [etc]
Chrsi Phillips
Jim Weber
Chris Phillips wrote:
>
> The Patent Roll reference is actually available online, courtesy of Prof. G.
> R. Boynton and the University of Iowa Libraries:
> http://www.uiowa.edu/~acadtech/patentrolls/
>
> Licence for Joan, late the wife Robert Greyndour, esquire, to found a
> perpetual chantry in the parish church of All Saints, Neweland, in the
> forest of Dene, co. Gloucester, in the diocese of Hereford, at the altar of
> St. John the Baptist and St Nicholas in the same church, of one chaplain
> to celebrate divine service for the good estate of the said Joan and
> Reynold West, knight, lord la Warre, and Elizabeth his wife, and for
> their souls after death and for the souls of the said Robert, John
> Greyndour, knight, his father and Marion his mother, and of Isabel late
> John's wife, Thomas Rugge, esquire, the father, and Katharine his wife,
> the mother of the said Joan, John Joce late husband of Isabel, Hawisia
> Bytton sometime the wife of John Bytton, knight, the elder, John Bytton,
> knight, grandfather of the said Joan, Alice Sturye, John Sergeaunt,
> Edmund Forde and Joan his wife, and for the souls of the kinsfolk,
> friends and benefactors of the said Joan [etc]
>
> Chrsi Phillips
Chris,
Thank you very much for the information. I couldn't find the entry
myself, as I couldn't master its search engine. Everything I searched
for came back with either nothing or thousands of entries.
Reynold West was married to Robert & Joan's daughter Elizabeth (see CP
entry below). Elizabeth was apparently born about 1420, which could be
compatible with her grandfather, John Greyndour, having married Isabel,
the widow of John Joce (b. bef 1344). By the way, it seems that the
name of Thomas Rugge's wife and Joan's mother (Katharine) could be
added to the CP Entry.
Presumably (but is it for sure?) "Isabel late John's wife" & "John Joce
late husband of Isabel" are the same Isabel. And, to add to the
potential confusion, there are more people by the name of John Joce in
the Newland area. I found a John Joce involved in a land sale in 1485
(see A2A entry below).
Still looking for more,
Jim Weber
------------
COMPLETE PEERAGE ARTICLE ON
BARONY OF LA WARRE
"He [Reynold West, 6th Lord de la Warre] married, 2ndly, before 19
November 1443, Elizabeth, daughter and heir of Robert GREYNDOUR, of
Micheldean and Abenhall, co. Gloucester, Aston Ingham, co. Hereford,
&c., by Joan, daughter and heir of Thomas RUGGE, of Charlecombe,
Somerset. He died 27 August 1450, aged nearly 55. His widow married
after 10 June 1451, as 2nd wife, John (TIPTOFT), EARL OF WORCESTER.
She, who was aged 23 and more in January 1443/4, died 1 September 1452.
He was beheaded on Tower Hill, 18 October 1470, and was buried in the
Church of the Black Friars by Ludgate." [Complete Peerage IV:153-4,
XIV:243]
------------
A2A ENTRY FROM:
Gloucestershire Record Office: Deeds, Estate and Family Records of the
Hall (of High Meadow) and Gage Families of Newland and Staunton (near
Coleford)
Reference: D1677/GG/251
Creation dates: (1458)
Scope and Content
Sunday after S. Andrew's day, 37 Hen. VI.
Grant by WILLIAM DULL, WILLIAM HANYES and WILLIAM HALL to Sir JOHN
LEDBURY, chaplain of the service (servicii) of the B.V.M. of Newlond,
Sir RICHARD (?)DOBYNS, vicar there, THOMAS ELY, JAMES HYETT, WALTER
DULL, WILLIAM WALKER, HENRY STODYSHYLL, HENRY GEORGE, WILLIAM ROBERT,
JOHN HYLL, ROBERT SCKYN, JAMES KERE, JOHN THOMPSET, and RICHARD
BOLYNGEOPE, of a piece of land with a meadow and 19s. 11½d. annual
rent customarily received from tenements, viz:-
Hugh Sadler for a meadow at Hey Asschrugge, 8d.
Walter Hall for a tenement at Colfford, 12d.
Thos. More for lands called Derkesty, 2s.
Wm. Kyng for lands called Kynggebredewall, 15d.
Thomas Moldeson for land called Kynggesbradwall, 15d.
William Roffyn for a piece of land called Bradwall, 15d.
Robert Myllyng for a meadow next Orewey, 3½d.
John Joce for a piece of land next Bekenor wey, 6d.
John Twelty for a meadow next the said land of John Joce, 9d. With
heriot or relief.
Wm. Hall for his tenement and for lands late of John Hall, 5s.
The heirs of John Hall for land called Bradwall between land of Phil.
Yeylow and the king's forest and the way from the forest to Colfford
and land of the heirs of Wm. Mayler and the heirs of Wm. Sckyn, the
meadow lying at Combe between the vivarium and land of Robt. Parson and
land of Richd. Wylly and Stancklong.
Witnesses:- Richd. Etone, Thos. More, John Walker, Phil. Mey, John
Wolffe. At Newlond. 3 tags, seals gone.
Chris Phillips
Jim Weber wrote:
<<
Thank you very much for the information. I couldn't find the entry
myself, as I couldn't master its search engine. Everything I searched
for came back with either nothing or thousands of entries.
>>
To find a particular page, go to http://www.uiowa.edu/~acadtech/patentrolls/
and then enter the site.
In the search form, tick the volume in the lower part of the form, enter the
page number on the right hand side ("Search by Page"), and then click the
Submit button on the right-hand side. That should bring up a single link to
an image of the page you want.
Chris Phillips
al...@mindspring.com
Abenhall
Littledean
Mitcheldean
Newland
Ruarden
that I have seen so far. Some of the info. is redundant but each one
adds a new piece of two of info.
Doug Smith
Jim Weber
Doug,
SPOT ON!
The VCH-Gloucester account of Abenhall (excerpt below) introduces
Lawrence Greynour and Margaret Abenhall as parents of John Greynour, so
VCH is coming a little closer to the Visitations of Gloucester.
HOWEVER, it looks like William Walwyn is the heir of Elizabeth Greynour
after the death of her 2nd husband Tiptoft in 1470 (not just William
Walwyn's daughter Alice, who was the heir after William d. 1471);
therefore the visitations are probably wrong, with the connection
between the Walwyns and Greynours occuring prior to William Walwyn (The
Visitation of Gloucestershire named him Thomas Walwyn, but noted that
he had been named William Walwyn elsewhere, which is what CP & VCH name
him).
And, with the VCH account of Littledean (excerpt below) we now have a
blood connection between John Greyndour and his maternal great
grandfather William de Dene of Mitcheldean.
Getting better,
Jim Weber
VCH-GLOUCESTER ACCOUNT OF ABENHALL MANOR.
Abenhall was presumably among those lands called Dean which William son
of Norman held in 1086 and which Edward the Confessor had exempted from
the payment of geld in return for the guarding of the Forest. (Footnote
64) In the 13th century a woodward held land and the bailiwick of
Abenhall in the Forest from the Crown in fee by a cash rent. (Footnote
65) The land became part of ABENHALL manor, which in 1301 was held from
the Crown by the serjeanty of keeping the bailiwick and by a cash rent
of 20s. paid at Newnham to the constable of St. Briavels castle.
(Footnote 66) The office of woodward of the bailiwick descended with
the manor until the late 18th century. (Footnote 67) In the late 14th
century and the 15th, however, the manor was thought to be held from
St. Briavels castle by knight service. (Footnote 68)
The first men known to have held the manor were surnamed of Abenhall.
(Footnote 69) William, a woodward in 1216 and 1237, (Footnote 70) was
presumably the lord of Abenhall, and his son Ralph (fl. 1255) (Footnote
71) had evidently acquired a moiety of Mitcheldean manor by the 1240s,
when he was paying 30s. rent to the Crown. (Footnote 72) The same or
another Ralph, keeper of the bailiwick in the 1260s, (Footnote 73) was
succeeded in Abenhall manor at his death c. 1301 by his son John.
(Footnote 74) In 1317 John's brother and heir Ralph granted the manor,
described as a messuage and two ploughlands, to another brother
Reynold. (Footnote 75) Reynold (d. c. 1341) was succeeded by his son
Ralph, (Footnote 76) and Ralph died c. 1347 leaving an infant daughter
Margaret as his heir. (Footnote 77) Margaret and her husband Lawrence
Greyndour obtained seisin of Ralph's lands in 1358 (Footnote 78) and
her second husband Robert of Huntley retained them after her death in
1357. Her son and heir John Greyndour (Footnote 79) later held Abenhall
manor and part of Mitcheldean manor and at his death in 1415 or 1416
was succeeded by his son Robert. (Footnote 80) At Robert's death in
1443 a third of Abenhall manor passed in dower to his wife Joan, who
later married John Barre, and two thirds to his daughter Elizabeth,
wife of Reynold West, Lord La Warre. After Elizabeth's death in 1452
her second husband John Tiptoft, earl of Worcester, (Footnote 81)
retained her part until his death in 1470 when it reverted to her heir
William Walwyn. From William (d. 1471) it passed to his daughter Alice,
wife of Thomas Baynham, (Footnote 82) to whom the rest of the manor
reverted at Joan Barre's death in 1484. (Footnote 83) Thomas died in
1500 (Footnote 84) and from Alice the manor, together with part of
Mitcheldean, descended until 1696 usually with an estate in Ruardean.
(Footnote 85) In 1527 Sir Christopher Baynham settled Abenhall manor on
the marriage of his son George and Cecily Gage, (Footnote 86) and in
1565 their son Richard (d. 1580) held the woodwardship of Abenhall.
(Footnote 87) In 1611 the estates passed to the Vaughans, a leading
Roman Catholic family, from whom they were confiscated several times.
(Footnote 88) In 1696 Abenhall manor was sold, to pay the debts of John
Vaughan (d. 1694) and his dead brother Thomas, to Richard Vaughan of
Courtfield in Welsh Bicknor (Mon., later Herefs.)....
[From: 'Abenhall', A History of the County of Gloucester: Volume V:
Bledisloe Hundred, St. Briavels Hundred, The Forest of Dean (1996),
pp. 93-101. URL:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=23253. Date
accessed: 28 June 2005]
VCH-GLOUCESTER ACCOUNT OF LITTLEDEAN
Littledean with Mitcheldean and Abenhall was presumably part of the
estate called Dean held by William son of Norman in 1086 (Footnote 19)
and apparently had a castle soon afterwards. (Footnote 20) Woodland
there belonging to the Crown was cleared for cultivation by William of
Dean (d. c. 1259), the lord of part of Mitcheldean, who paid a rent of
2s. to St. Briavels castle for it. William's son and heir Henry of Dean
made further clearances at Littledean (Footnote 21) and at his death c.
1292 was seised there of assarted land, for which he owed the same rent
of 2s., and 2 yardlands held from the Crown for a cash rent of 6d.
(Footnote 22) Henry's lands descended with his Mitcheldean estate to
his grandson William of Dean, who at his death c. 1319 had in
Littledean a messuage, 51 a., and rents worth £3 17s. 5d. from 18
freehold estates. (Footnote 23) His lands, placed in the guardianship
of his wife Isabel in 1320, were eventually divided between his infant
daughters Joan and Isabel. (Footnote 24) The Littledean possessions
later became known as the manor of LITTLEDEAN. (Footnote 25) Custody of
a bailiwick in the royal demesne woodland of the Forest was probably
held with the Littledean lands before 1282 when the bailiwick was in
the king's hands. (Footnote 26) It was restored some time after 1319
(Footnote 27) to the lords of the part of the manor acquired by Isabel
of Dean, (Footnote 28) and in 1565 the Littledean bailiwick, also known
as Badcocks Bailey, was held by Richard Baynham (d. 1580) evidently by
virtue of his reversionary right to that part of the manor. (Footnote
29) The estate later passed to the Vaughans and they were recorded as
woodwards of the bailiwick until the late 17th century. (Footnote 30)
William of Dean's elder daughter Joan received his Mitcheldean
possessions and in 1436 her descendant Robert Baynham (Footnote 31) had
rents totalling £3 2s. 7d. in Littledean. (Footnote 32) Robert died
later in 1436 and his Littledean and Mitcheldean estates descended to
William Baynham (d. 1568) and were retained by William's widow Anne in
jointure in 1573. By 1608 William's son Joseph (Footnote 33) held a
quarter of Littledean manor (Footnote 34) and at his death in 1613 was
succeeded by his son Alexander. (Footnote 35) The Littledean estate
apparently passed with Mitcheldean in 1694 to Maynard Colchester.
(Footnote 36)
Isabel, William of Dean's other daughter, married Ralph of Abenhall
(Footnote 37) (d. c. 1347), whose daughter and heir Margaret, wife in
turn of Lawrence Greyndour and Robert of Huntley, had rents in
Littledean at her death in 1375. (Footnote 38) By 1354 Isabel was
married to John Basset, (Footnote 39) who died in 1362 leaving infant
daughters, Margaret and Alice (d. 1367). (Footnote 40) Margaret married
Walter Brown and in 1383 they conveyed a quarter of Littledean manor to
John Greyndour, (Footnote 41) the son and heir of Margaret of Huntley.
(Footnote 42) John died in 1415 or 1416 and his part of the manor
descended with his estate in Abenhall and Mitcheldean, which passed at
the death of Thomas Baynham in 1611 to the Vaughan family....
[From: 'Littledean', A History of the County of Gloucester: Volume V:
Bledisloe Hundred, St. Briavels Hundred, The Forest of Dean (1996),
pp. 159-73. URL:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=23258. Date
accessed: 28 June 2005]
Jim Weber
Sleeping on something overnight does help.
It now seems clear to me that, if, as VCH-Gloucs-Newland states, John
Greyndour was the Greyndour who secured the rights to Clearwell of
Newland, then he must have had a daughter who married William Walwyn's
father. John Greyndour's lands (which included Abenall from his mother
Margaret of Abenall) initially went to his son and heir Robert, and
then to Robert's daughter and heir Elizabeth, or (in the case of
Clearwell) to Robert's wife Joan in dower. When Elizabeth's 2nd husband
John Tiptoft died in 1470, Abenall went to Robert's sister's son
William Walwyn for a short time until William died in 1471, when it
went to William's daughter Alice. The Clearwell property was retained
by Robert's wife Joan and her 2nd husband, John Barre (d. 1483), until
she died in 1484, at which time the property went directly to William's
daughter Alice Walwyn. If, as CP indicates, Elizabeth was b. c1420,
and, as I proposed before, Alice Walwyn was b. c1450/5, then Alice's
father William Walwyn and Elizabeth were probably contemporaries. Thus
Elizabeth's father Robert Greyndour and William Walwyn's mother were
probably contermporaries as well, and, in my proposal, were brother and
sister, being both children of John Greyndour. We don't know if the
daughter's mother was John's first wife (Marion) or second wife
(Isabel), but it may be that chronology will indicate that John had no
children by his 2nd wife, as it might have been a late marriage.
As to the name of John Greyndour's daughter, the Visitation of
Gloucestershire names her Elizabeth (sister of Robert), and has her
marrying Thomas (or William) Walwyn, who they say was father of Alice.
I now propose that this Thomas or William (VCH below indicates another
William) was grandfather of Alice, being father of the William who died
in 1471, who was father of Alice.
VCH-Gloucs account of the Hathaway Court/Hall in Ruardean, giving a
pretty good account of the Walwyn line, states that William Walwyn had
a widow named Ellen in 1445. This William was probably father of the
William who d. in 1471 being described as "of Ruardean", which matches
the description CP III:152 gives for Alice's father "He [Giles Brugge]
m. Isabel, daughter of Thomas Baynham, of Mitcheldean, co. Gloucester,
by his 2nd wife, Alice, daughter and heir of William Walwyn, of
Ruardean in that co., and of Bickerton, co. Hereford". So maybe this
widow of William Walwyn named Ellen was a daughter of John Greyndour.
Whether her name is Elizabeth (VoG) or Ellen (VCH), I think that she
was a daughter of John Greyndour and wife of William Walwyn (d. bef.
1445), and mother of William Walwyn (d. 1471, father of Alice).
As Doug pointed out, each of the VCH-Gloucs treatises (Abenhall,
Littldean, Mitcheldean, Newland, Ruardean) has a little bit more to add
to the solution, and it requires all of them to begin arriving at a
complete picture. I am still not satisfied with VCH-Glouc's
description of how John Greyndour acquired rights to Clearwell (through
his 2nd wife Isabel, widow of John Joce of Clearwell). I think that
the Visitation of Gloucestershire, which has proven fairly good in this
line, has a better scenario for explaining it.
Jim Weber
VCH-GLOUCESTER ACCOUNT OF HATHAWAYS IN RUARDEAN
William Hathaway, one of the lords of Ruardean in the early 14th
century, (Footnote 12) had probably inherited part of William of
Aumale's estate as a minor. (Footnote 13) Hathaway's estate, later
called HATHAWAYS or HATHAWAYS COURT manor, (Footnote 14) was held from
Alexander of Bicknor for a cash rent. It passed from William (d. c.
1317) to his son William (Footnote 15) and by 1355 to the latter's son
Walter. Thomas Hathaway, the owner in 1366, (Footnote 16) held land in
Ruardean from the Crown for a cash rent paid at St. Briavels castle and
at his death in 1376 his heirs were his infant daughters Isabel, Sibyl,
and Ellen. (Footnote 17) His estates in Ruardean and St. Briavels were
divided between them in 1382, when Isabel and her husband Thomas Walwyn
received her share. (Footnote 18) The Crown retained the other shares
until Sibyl, who married Nicholas Hyde, and Ellen came of age.
(Footnote 19) Thomas Walwyn, of Much Marcle (Herefs.), died in 1415 and
was survived by Isabel and several sons, of whom Richard was his heir.
(Footnote 20) In 1445 Ellen, the widow of William Walwyn, quitclaimed
rents in Ruardean to John Hickox and his wife Isabel, and in 1450
Isabel quitclaimed land which she had inherited from her mother Sibyl
Hyde to William Walwyn of Bickerton in Much Marcle. (Footnote 21)
William held a manor court in 1454, (Footnote 22) when he was also
described as of Ruardean, (Footnote 23) and at his death in 1471
Hathaways, held from Ruardean manor for 1d., passed to his daughter
Alice, wife of Thomas Baynham (Footnote 24) (d. 1500). Alice, who later
married Sir Walter Dennis (d. 1505 or 1506), (Footnote 25) died in 1518
and the estate passed to her son Sir Christopher Baynham (Footnote 26)
(fl. 1534). (Footnote 27) His son George, who held it in 1541,
(Footnote 28) was knighted in 1546 and died later that year leaving the
manor for life to his wife Cecily, who later married Sir Charles
Herbert. (Footnote 29) From Cecily, whose son Richard Baynham may have
held the manor court in the 1550s, it passed in 1585 to another son
Thomas Baynham, (Footnote 30) who was succeeded in 1611 by his daughter
Joan and her husband John Vaughan of Kinnersley (Herefs.)....
[From: 'Ruardean', A History of the County of Gloucester: Volume V:
Bledisloe Hundred, St. Briavels Hundred, The Forest of Dean (1996),
pp. 231-47. URL:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=23261. Date
accessed: 28 June 2005]
Jim Weber
One final thought on the descent of Clearwell, and then I am probably
done until some new information comes up.
I am inclined to go with the Visitation of Gloucestershire account of
the descent, which can be made compatible with the VCH-Gloucs account:
1. William Joyce/Joce of Newland, fl. 1282 (VoG, VCH)
1.1 Philip Joyce/Joce, of Newland by 1320 (VoG, VCH)
1.1.1 John Joyce/Joce. d. aft. 1365 (VoG, VCH)
1.1.1.1 John Joce, d.<1389 m. Isabel m. John Greyndour below (VCH)
1.1.1.2 Margaret Joyce m. Robert Grendoure (VoG)
1.1.1.2.1 Lawrence Greyndour m. Margaret of Abenhall (VoG, VCH)
1.1.1.2.1.1 John Greyndour, d.1415/6 m. 1) Marion; 2) Isabel above
(VoG, VCH)
1.1.1.2.1.1.1 Robert Greyndour, d. 1443, [m. Joan Rugge] (VoG, VCH)
1.1.1.2.1.1.2 Elizabeth/Ellen Grendoure m. William Walwyn, d.<1445
(VoG, VCH)
1.1.1.2.1.1.2.1 William Walwyn, d. 1471 (VCH)
1.1.1.2.1.1.2.1.1 Alice Walwyn m. Thomas Baynham (VoG, VCH)
In this scenario, Isabel (probably a young bride), when her first
husband, John Joce, died by 1389, married her husband's great? nephew,
John Greyndour. And what could be more convenient! Since John was the
heir, Isabel didn't even have to move houses.
There have been numerous instances where widows married their late
spouse's close relatives, the case of Henry VIII being among the most
prominent. The pope didn't even consider Henry's marrying his brother
Aurthur's widow grounds for annullment (although I think politics
played a bigger part in that decision than church legalities).
Regards,
Jim Weber
Jim Weber
VCH-Gloucs, in its Newland account, mentions two John Joces: The elder,
"probably the son of Philip" claiming manorial rights in 1338,
mentioned as the elder along with John Joce the younger in 1365, and
the younger presumably mentioned with his wife Isabel in 1378 and dead
by 1389. I have found two A2A entries (given below) which expand on
this informaion, adding probably a third "eldest" John Joce mentioned
as "senior" along with Sir Philip Joce as witnesses in 1310. The
second A2A entry probably moves the 1365 date given by VCH-Gloucs back
to 1353.
Here is my problem: The 1365 VCH-Gloucs citation involves both the
father and the son, and therefore (in my mind) implies that both are of
age. But what happens when only the father is mentioned with "elder"
or "senior" attached to his name. Does this occur: 1) after the son is
born & christened? 2) after the son becomes a teen-ager and "goes out
in public", accompanying his father around learning to be an esquire or
a knight? 3) only after the son comes of age.
Perhaps someone in the group has some input on this question.
Jim Weber
PS: The importance of an eldest John Joce is that, according to the
Visitation of Gloucestershire, Margaret Joce (wife of Robert Greyndour,
and grandmother of John Greyndour who inherited Clearwell through her)
was daughter of John Joce son of Philip Joce. Now that Margaret is
potentially the daughter of a John of a prior generation, the
chronology works better; and the relationship between VCH-Gloucs' two
husbands for Isabel (John Joce junior and John Greyndour) is 1st
cousin-once-removed instead of great nephew. A late husband's "1st
cousin-once-removed" is generally a lot closer in age than a "great
nephew", and a lot more palatable as a 2nd husband.
A2A ENTRY #1
Gloucestershire Record Office: Deeds, Estate and Family Records of the
Hall (of High Meadow) and Gage Families of Newland and Staunton (near
Coleford) [D1677/GG/1 - D1677/GG/1132]
Reference: D1677/GG/28
Creation dates: (1310)
Scope and Content
Friday before St. Gregory's day, 3 Edw. II.
Grant by ADAM MYCHELL, son and heir of John Mychell of Clorewall de
Peke, to RICHARD MYCHELL his brother of all lands and tenements,
meadow, pasture &c. in the parish of Newelond and in the lordship of
St. Briavell To hold of the chief lord of that fee.
Witnesses:- Sir Philip Joce, knt., Sir Houwell ap Howell, knt., John
Joce senr., John Ketefar senr., John Gayner.
Dated at Newelond. Armorial seal: ON A TAG, BROWN WAX, CIRCULAR: A
SHIELD QUARTERED, APPARENTLY ARMORIAL, WITH LEGEND, TOO FAINTLY
IMPRESSED TO DECIPHER.
A2A ENTRY #2
Gloucestershire Record Office: Medieval Deeds relating to the Newland
Area, Forest of Dean
Reference: D7275/1
Creation dates: 1353
Extent and Form: 1
Scope and Content
Sunday after the feast of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary, 27
Edward III [18 August 1353]
John Joce senior of Newland and John Taylor of Newland
John Joce has quitclaimed to John Taylor for two pieces of land with
one meadow: the first piece lying at "El Wode" in length and in width
between land of John Joce, once the land of John Michel and the king's
wood and the road leading towards Lydney; the second piece lying with
the meadow in a field called Cruttesfelde in length and in width
between the meadow called knytusmedwe and the lands of Nicholas Dol,
Walter Huzessone, the land of John Joce and the road leading from
Clorewallestrete towards the church of All Saints in [Newland]. An
annual rent of 6s 8d is to be paid at Michaelmas
Witnesses: John Lawrance, Elias War, William Brut, Walter Clerke, John
Axel
At Newland
Seal missing (tag)
Note: the grant to which this quitclaim relates is catalogued as GRO
D2244/44
Jim Weber
I have finished my initial research on the Braynham, Greyndour, &
Walwyn families according to VCH-Gloucs Vol V, and thought that I would
post what I have found/surmised so far, in order to invite
critiques/suggestions from anyone willing to do so. Then I am off for
the 4th of July long weekend.
I am terrible at generating charts, so I have tried 4 tables (A,B,C,D),
interjoined at certain places, based on the primary source for the
lineage in the respective tables (A=VCH-Mitcheldean,
B=VCH-Newland/Clearwell, C=Abenhall, D=Ruardean/Hathaways Court). In
order to conserve line space, I started out each lineage (where the
descent is simple, with father being followed by son (or probable son))
with a simple ">1." meaning "son of the previous." Where the lineage
becomes more complex, I started adding ".1.1", etc. Where another
source other than the primary VCH source of the table was used, I
placed the information in parentheses with the [other source] included
at the end of the parentheses.
The key elements added to the lineage from other sources have already
been posted by me previously in this thread. They are the existence of
an eldest John Joce, name "senior" in 1310 (per A2A entry); his
daughter Margaret who m. Robert Greyndour, according to the Visitation
of Gloucestershire (VoG); and Elizabeth, da. of John Greyndour, m.
William Walwyn, again according to VoG. In addition I have indicated a
few places where other sources indicate ties to other families. Since
VCH has very few of these descents outside the track of the property
involved, I am certain that I have missed most of them, relying only on
the few that I have.
I apologize in advance if this turns out to look like a big mess,
especially after it alway seems to get reformatted by google after I
post it. Also I apologize for my wierd conventions, but it seemed like
that there were a lot more individuals involved in these lines than I
originally thought; and I felt I had to find someway to compress the
information. More details on the sources are available on request.
Jim Weber
TABLE A. Mitcheldean - VCH-Gloucs Vol V
1.William son of Norman, of Dean in 1086.
>1. Hugh of Dean, fl. 1130.
>1. William of Dean, fl. time of Miles of Gloucester (d. 1143) & his son Roger Earl of Hereford (d. 1155).
>1. William of Dean, d.<1199. (this generation is blurred with the prior in VCH)
>1. Geoffrey of Dean, held Mitcheldean 1199.
>1. William of Dean, d. c1259.
>1. Henry of Dean, d. c1292; (m. Agatha, da. of William de Lasborough. [VCH-Gloucs, St. Briavels])
>1. William of Dean, d. c1310.
>1. William of Dean, d. c1319, m. Isabel, fl. 1320, d.<1328.
>1.1. Isabel of Dean (, d.<1358; m. 1) Ralph Abenhall; m by 1354. 2) John Basset. [VCH-Littledean]) SEE TABLE C.
>1.1. Joan of Dean (probably eldest), fl. 1384, m. 1) John Esger;
>1.1. ..............................................by 1334 m. 2) Ralph Baynham (ap Eynon), d. by 1366.
>1.1.1. Margaret, heir of Joan of Dean (or by 1st husband?), fl. 1384; m. William of the hall, constable of Grosmont.
>1.1.2. Thomas Baynham, d. in 1376; m. Joan, fl. 1376.
>1.1.2.1. Thomas Baynham, d.<1395.
>1.1.2.1.1. John Baynham, minor 1395 when he was Joan of Dean's heir, fl. 1411, d.<1418; (m. Elizabeth. [VoG])
>1.1.2.1.1.1. Robert Baynham, d. 1436; (m. Margaret Abrale/Abrahall [VoG]).
>1.1.2.1.1.1.1. Thomas Baynham, minor 1436, d. 1500; m. 1) (Margaret, da. of Richard or John Huddy [VoG])
>1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1. Sir Alexander Baynham, (heir by 1st wife), of Mitcheldean, d. 1524.
>1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.1. John Baynham, of Mitcheldean, d. 1528 (d.s.p.).
>1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.2. William Baynham, of Mitcheldean, d. 1568; m. Anne, fl. 1573 (holding Mitcheldean).
>1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.2.1. Robert Baynham, d. 1572; m. Mary, d. 1610; m. Sir Robert Woodruff, d. 1609.
>1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.2.2. Joseph Baynham, d. 1613, granted (temporarily?) Mitcheldean in 1574 to Thomas Horn.
>1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.2.2.1. Alexander Baynham sold Mitcheldean in 1619 to Nicholas Roberts.
>1.1.2.1.1.1.1. Thomas Baynham (above) by 1471 m. 2) Alice Walwyn SEE TABLE B.
TABLE B. Newland (Clearwell Manor) - VCH-Gloucs Vol V.
1. Richard son of Joce, Woodward of Dean, fl. 1223
>1. William Joce (maybe son of Richard), Forester of Dean, fl. 1245.
>1. William Joce (maybe son of William), held Bearse bailiwick in Newland in 1282.
>1. Philip Joce, given lands in Newland in 1320 by William (or possibly another William Joce (son of William?)).
>1.1. (Sir Philip Joce, of Clearwell, of age 1310, fl. 19 Dec 1341. [A2A])
>1.2. (John Joce, of Newland, of age 1310 (at which time he was named "senior"). [A2A, VoG])
>1.2.1.. John Joce, (b. bef 1310 [A2A]), mentioned with son John in 1365.
>1.2.1.1. John Joce, of age 1365, d.<1389; m. by 1378 Isabel; m. by 1395 John Greyndour SEE BELOW.
>1.2.2. (Margaret Joce m. Robert Greyndour [VoG])
>1.2.2.1. Lawrence Greyndour, fl. 1358; m. Margaret heiress of Abenhall, d. 1375. SEE TABLE C.
>1.2.2.1.1. John Greyndour, d. 1415/6, of Clearwell; m. 1) Marion; m. by 1395 2) Isabel SEE ABOVE.
>1.2.2.1.1.1. Robert Greyndour (by 1st wife), d. 1443; m. Joan Rugge, d. 1484; m. bef 1455 John Barre, d. 1483.
>1.2.2.1.1.1.1. Elizabeth, b. c1420, dsp. 1452; m. 1) Reynold West [Lord la Warre]; m. 2) John Tiptoft [Earl of Worcs]
>1.2.2.1.1.2. (Elizabeth Greyndour [VoG]) Ellen, fl. 1445; m. William Walwyn, d.<1445. SEE TABLE D.
>1.2.2.1.1.2.1. William Walwyn, of Ruardean & Bickerton, d. 1471. SEE TABLE D.
>1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1. Alice Walwyn, d.1518; m. by 1471 1) Thomas Baynham; m. 2) Sir Walter Dennis. SEE TABLE A.
>1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.1. (Isabel Baynham, d.>24 Jun 1517; m. Giles Brugge of Cubberley, d. 1 Dec 1511 [CP 3:152, SGM])
>1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.2. (Elizabeth Baynham; m. 1) Robert Russell; 2) Robert Throckmorton of Coughton [AR7, SGM])
>1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3. Sir Christopher Baynham, heir of his mother, of Clearwell; (m. Joane Morgan [VoG])
>1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1. Sir George Baynham, d. 1546; (m. Cecily, da. of John Gage by Philippa Guilford [VoG])
>1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.1. Christopher Baynham, minor 1546, fl. 1555, dsp.<1558.
>1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.2. Richard Baynham, dsp. 1580.
>1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.3. Thomas Baynham, d. 1611; (m. Mary da. of William Winter [VoG])
>1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.3.1. Cecily Baynham; m. Sir William Throckmorton, Bt, d. 1628.
>1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.3.1.1. Sir Baynham Throckmorton, of Clearwell, d. 1664.
>1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.3.1.1.1. Sir Baynham Throckmorton, of Clearwell, d. c1680; m. Catherine, fl. 1698.
>1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.3.1.1.1.1. Catherine Wild (dau.) & Carolina Scrymsher (step-dau.) sold Clearwell in 1698
>1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.3.2. Joan Baynham; m. John Vaughan.
TABLE C. Abenhall - VCH-Glocs Vol V.
1. William Abenhall, a woodward in 1216 and 1237.
>1. Ralph Abenhall, fl. 1255.
>1. Ralph Abenhall (possibly same as above), d. c1301.
>1.1. John Abenhall, dsp.<1317.
>1.2. Ralph Abenhall, fl.1317, granted Abenhall to his brother Reynold.
>1.3. Reynold Abenhall, d. c1341.
>1.3.1. Ralph Abenhall, d.c1347; (m. Isabel of Dean; m. by 1354 John Basset [VCH-Littledean]) SEE TABLE A.
>1.3.1.1. Margaret Abenhall, heir, d. 1375, m. Lawrence Greyndour, of Newland, fl. 1358. SEE TABLE B.
TABLE D. Ruardean (Hathaways Court) - VCH-Gloucs Vol V.
1. William Hathaway, d. c1317.
>1. William Hathaway, d.<1355.
>1. Walter Hathaway, d.<1366.
>1. Thomas Hathaway, d. 1376.
>1.1. Isabel Hathaway, heir of Hathaway in 1382, b. c1366, d.>1415, m. Thomas Walwyn, of Bickerton, d. 1415.
>1.1.1. Richard Walwyn, heir, of Bickerton.
>1.1.2. (Thomas Walwyn, of Hellens Manor? [BP])
>1.1.2.1. (Margaret Walwin; m. William de Croft, Sheriff of Hereford [BP])
>1.1.3. William Walwyn, d.<1445; m. Ellen, d.>1445 (AKA. Elizabeth Greyndour [VoG]) SEE TABLE B.
>1.2. Sibyl Hathaway, b. c1369; m. Nicholas Hyde.
>1.3. Ellen Hathaway, b. c1372.
mvernon...@yahoo.co.uk
I have only just sat down to look at this thread but can provide
another lead, albeit only vaguely. There is an article covering these
lines, but as always I'm in a different country from my notes and it's
5 years or so since I consulted it- it must be in the transactions of
the Bristol & Gloucester arch. soc. and be called something like the
manors of Dene Magna and Abenhall. Maybe someone else here can say
which vol. it's in- if Frank Baynham is reading he may well know the
one I mean.
>From what I have written down and to hand, you have it all pretty much
as this article did, but they name the daughter of Sir John Greyndour
and wife of William Walwyn senior of Bickerton as Johanna, a third
possible name for you! Without knowing the article's sources it's
impossible to comment further on that issue. But I am perplexed now to
see that I have her dates written down as c.1422-1461, as her father
was dead in 1416! Also I have 1422 down as birth year of Thomas
Baynham, which would make him the same age as his wife's grandmother.
It's obvious that there is a mistake here but I don't know if it's in
the article or my transcription (no doubt the latter).
I've collected a bit about the Walwyn family as I have a more recent
descent from them. Thomas Walwyn who d.1415 had both a son and a
brother called William (they are each mentioned in his will); the
brother is identified in the Walwyn pedigree in Duncombe's Hereford as
being the William of Bickerton who married Joanna Greyndour (it gives
their son William d.1470, m. Elizabeth dau William Lanks, and had Alice
d.1518 m. Thomas Baynham d.1500, with issue). The William who was son
of Thomas Walwyn was of 'Longworth' (usually Longford). According to
BLG he was b.c1390, m. Jane/Joan dau. Sir Thomas Whitney, and d.1440.
However, it is still possible that they may have been confused over
time and swapped some details- the chronology may give a clue. Thomas
Walwyn and Sir John Greyndour do seem to have been almost exact (within
10 years) contemporaries and the article I mentioned gives Greyndour's
second wife Isabella as mother of Johanna; this would seem to favour
William the son as more likely chronologically, unless William the
brother was on a later marriage to a younger woman (although she was
not then an heiress). Thomas Walwyn (d.1415) may be found in HoP, House
of Commons 1386-1421, vol iv pp.765-6; Sir John Greyndour is also in
that series but I don't have a copy of his entry. These provide
abundant references. (There is no mention of Bickerton in Thomas'
holdings therein.)
Hope this helps, and happy holiday
Matthew
Jim Weber
Thank you for the info. I have seen the 1422 date (9 Apr 1422 to be
exact) for Thomas Baynham myself, and it certainly is not unreasonable.
He was a minor in 1436 at his father's death, and his marriage by 1471
(aged 49?) to Alice Walwyn was his 2nd marriage--so who knows how long
he was married to his first wife? We have seen older "f_rts" than
Thomas would have been having numerous children with a young wife.
I will look over your information, taking it with me up to Silver Lake
in the High Sierras, over the long weekend.
Jim Weber
Jim Weber
>
> I've collected a bit about the Walwyn family as I have a more recent
> descent from them. Thomas Walwyn who d.1415 had both a son and a
> brother called William (they are each mentioned in his will); the
> brother is identified in the Walwyn pedigree in Duncombe's Hereford as
> being the William of Bickerton who married Joanna Greyndour (it gives
> their son William d.1470, m. Elizabeth dau William Lanks, and had Alice
> d.1518 m. Thomas Baynham d.1500, with issue). The William who was son
> of Thomas Walwyn was of 'Longworth' (usually Longford). According to
> BLG he was b.c1390, m. Jane/Joan dau. Sir Thomas Whitney, and d.1440.
> However, it is still possible that they may have been confused over
> time and swapped some details- the chronology may give a clue. Thomas
> Walwyn and Sir John Greyndour do seem to have been almost exact (within
> 10 years) contemporaries and the article I mentioned gives Greyndour's
> second wife Isabella as mother of Johanna; this would seem to favour
> William the son as more likely chronologically, unless William the
> brother was on a later marriage to a younger woman (although she was
> not then an heiress). Thomas Walwyn (d.1415) may be found in HoP, House
> of Commons 1386-1421, vol iv pp.765-6; Sir John Greyndour is also in
> that series but I don't have a copy of his entry. These provide
> abundant references. (There is no mention of Bickerton in Thomas'
> holdings therein.)
Dear Matthew,
I am back from my long weekend and have had a chance to study your
information. I have also had a chance to reread the VCH-Gloucs account
of Ruardean, an excerpt of which I have copied below. On examining the
VCH account, it doesn't imply (as I had assumed in my prior reading)
that the William Walwyn who m. Ellen was a son of the Thomas Walwyn who
m. Isabel Hathaway. What VCH does seem to imply is that Ellen, who was
a widow of William Walwyn in 1445, was a sister of Isabel Hathaway and
coheir of the Ruardean property. Therefore we are presented with yet
another William Walwyn!
This new William Walwyn is certainly not the son of Thomas Walwyn &
Isabel Hathaway, yet this new William is probably related to the other
Walwyn family. In fact I tend to think that this William Walwyn might
be the brother mentioned in your source as William Walwyn of Bickerton.
Two sisters (Isabel & Ellen) marrying two brothers (Thomas & William)
is not unheard of. Then the William Walwyn who m. Joanna/Elizabeth
Greyndour would probably be William & Ellen (Hathaway) Walwyn's son.
We don't know how long this latter William Walwyn lived, but one could
speculate that he died v.p. and/or v.m., since the properties all
seemed to come together in the hands of his son William Walwyn
(grandson of Ellen & William), of Bickerton & Ruardean, d. 1471. This
would explain how William of Bickerton ended up with property in
Ruardean (part from his grandmother Ellen, and part from his cousin
Isabel Hyde). It would also place the William Walwyn who m.
Joanna/Elizabeth Greyndour closer to his wife's age, as she was b.
c1395 (or at minimum after 1384).
I have updated the tables from my previous posting to include your
information, plus my proposed changes. I also changed the ">"
previously used in my tables to a ".", as the ">" had unintended
consequences.
Regards,
Jim Weber
----------
VCH-GLOUCS, RUARDEAN (HATHAWAYS)
...Thomas Hathaway, the owner in 1366, (Footnote 16) held land in
Ruardean from the Crown for a cash rent paid at St. Briavels castle and
at his death in 1376 his heirs were his infant daughters Isabel, Sibyl,
and Ellen. (Footnote 17) His estates in Ruardean and St. Briavels were
divided between them in 1382, when Isabel and her husband Thomas Walwyn
received her share. (Footnote 18) The Crown retained the other shares
until Sibyl, who married Nicholas Hyde, and Ellen came of age.
(Footnote 19) Thomas Walwyn, of Much Marcle (Herefs.), died in 1415 and
was survived by Isabel and several sons, of whom Richard was his heir.
(Footnote 20) In 1445 Ellen, the widow of William Walwyn, quitclaimed
rents in Ruardean to John Hickox and his wife Isabel, and in 1450
Isabel quitclaimed land which she had inherited from her mother Sibyl
Hyde to William Walwyn of Bickerton in Much Marcle. (Footnote 21)
William held a manor court in 1454, (Footnote 22) when he was also
described as of Ruardean, (Footnote 23) and at his death in 1471
Hathaways, held from Ruardean manor for 1d., passed to his daughter
Alice, wife of Thomas Baynham (Footnote 24) (d. 1500)...
[From: 'Ruardean', A History of the County of Gloucester: Volume V:
Bledisloe Hundred, St. Briavels Hundred, The Forest of Dean (1996),
pp. 231-47. URL:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=23261. Date
accessed: 08 July 2005]
----------
UPDATED TABLES for Dean, Greyndour, Hathaway, Baynham, & Walwyn lines.
TABLE A. Mitcheldean - VCH-Gloucs Vol V
1.William son of Norman, of Dean in 1086.
.1. Hugh of Dean, fl. 1130.
.1. William of Dean, fl. time of Miles of Gloucester (d. 1143) & his
son Roger Earl of Hereford (d. 1155).
.1. William of Dean, d.<1199. (this generation is blurred with the
prior in VCH)
.1. Geoffrey of Dean, held Mitcheldean 1199.
.1. William of Dean, d. c1259.
.1. Henry of Dean, d. c1292; (m. Agatha, da. of William de Lasborough.
[VCH-Gloucs, St. Briavels])
.1. William of Dean, d. c1310.
.1. William of Dean, d. c1319, m. Isabel, fl. 1320, d.<1328.
.1.1. Joan of Dean, fl. 1384, m. 1) John Esger;
.1.1. .....................by 1334 m. 2) Ralph Baynham (ap Eynon), d.
by 1366.
.1.1.1. Margaret, heir of Joan of Dean (or by 1st husband?), fl. 1384;
m. William of the hall, constable of Grosmont.
.1.1.2. Thomas Baynham, d. in 1376; m. Joan, fl. 1376.
.1.1.2.1. Thomas Baynham, d.<1395.
.1.1.2.1.1. John Baynham, minor 1395 when he was Joan of Dean's heir,
fl. 1411, d.<1418; (m. Elizabeth. [VoG])
.1.1.2.1.1.1. Robert Baynham, d. 1436; (m. Margaret Abrale/Abrahall
[VoG]).
.1.1.2.1.1.1.1. Thomas Baynham, minor 1436, d. 1500; m. 1) (Margaret,
da. of Richard or John Huddy [VoG])
.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1. Sir Alexander Baynham, (heir by 1st wife), of
Mitcheldean, d. 1524.
.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.1. John Baynham, of Mitcheldean, d. 1528 (d.s.p.).
.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.2. William Baynham, of Mitcheldean, d. 1568; m. Anne,
fl. 1573 (holding Mitcheldean).
.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.2.1. Robert Baynham, d. 1572; m. Mary, d. 1610; m. Sir
Robert Woodruff, d. 1609.
.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.2.2. Joseph Baynham, d. 1613, granted (temporarily?)
Mitcheldean in 1574 to Thomas Horn.
.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.2.2.1. Alexander Baynham sold Mitcheldean in 1619 to
Nicholas Roberts.
.1.1.2.1.1.1.1. Thomas Baynham (above) by 1471 m. 2) Alice Walwyn SEE
TABLE B.
.1.2. Isabel of Dean (, d.<1358; m. 1) Ralph Abenhall; m by 1354. 2)
John Basset. [VCH-Littledean]) SEE TABLE C.
TABLE B. Newland (Clearwell Manor) - VCH-Gloucs Vol V.
1. Richard son of Joce, Woodward of Dean, fl. 1223
.1. William Joce (maybe son of Richard), Forester of Dean, fl. 1245.
.1. William Joce (maybe son of William), held Bearse bailiwick in
Newland in 1282.
.1. Philip Joce, given lands in Newland in 1320 by William (or another
William Joce (son of William?)).
.1.1. (Sir Philip Joce, of Clearwell, of age 1310, fl. 19 Dec 1341.
[A2A])
.1.2. (John Joce, of Newland, of age 1310 (at which time he was named
"senior"). [A2A, VoG])
.1.2.1.. John Joce, (b. bef 1310 [A2A]), mentioned with son John in
1365.
.1.2.1.1. John Joce, of age 1365, d.<1389; m. by 1378 Isabel; m. by
1395 John Greyndour SEE BELOW.
.1.2.2. (Margaret Joce m. Robert Greyndour [VoG])
.1.2.2.1. Lawrence Greyndour, fl. 1358; m. Margaret heiress of
Abenhall, d. 1375. SEE TABLE C.
.1.2.2.1.1. John Greyndour, d. 1415/6, of Clearwell; m. 1) Marion; m.
by 1395 2) Isabel SEE ABOVE.
.1.2.2.1.1.1. Robert Greyndour (by 1st wife), d. 1443; m. Joan Rugge,
d. 1484; m. bef 1455 John Barre, d. 1483.
.1.2.2.1.1.1.1. Elizabeth, b. c1420, dsp. 1452; m. 1) Reynold West
[Lord la Warre]; m. 2) John Tiptoft [Earl of Worcs]
.1.2.2.1.1.2. (Elizabeth/Joanna Greyndour, b.c1395 [VoG, SGM]); m.
William Walwyn of Bickerton. SEE TABLE D.
.1.2.2.1.1.2.1. William Walwyn, of Bickerton & Ruardean, d. 1471 (m.
Elizabeth dau. of William Lanks [SGM])
.1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1. Alice Walwyn, d.1518; m. by 1471 1) Thomas Baynham;
m. 2) Sir Walter Dennis. SEE TABLE A.
.1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.1. (Isabel Baynham, d.>24 Jun 1517; m. Giles Brugge of
Cubberley, d. 1 Dec 1511 [CP 3:152, SGM])
.1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.2. (Elizabeth Baynham; m. 1) Robert Russell; 2) Robert
Throckmorton of Coughton [AR7, SGM])
.1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3. Sir Christopher Baynham, heir of his mother, of
Clearwell; (m. Joane Morgan [VoG])
.1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1. Sir George Baynham, d. 1546; (m. Cecily, da. of
John Gage by Philippa Guilford [VoG])
.1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.1. Christopher Baynham, minor 1546, fl. 1555,
dsp.<1558.
.1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.2. Richard Baynham, dsp. 1580.
.1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.3. Thomas Baynham, d. 1611; (m. Mary da. of
William Winter [VoG])
.1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.3.1. Cecily Baynham; m. Sir William Throckmorton,
Bt, d. 1628.
.1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.3.1.1. Sir Baynham Throckmorton, of Clearwell, d.
1664.
.1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.3.1.1.1. Sir Baynham Throckmorton, of Clearwell,
d. c1680; m. Catherine, fl. 1698.
.1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.3.1.1.1.1. Catherine Wild (dau.) & Carolina
Scrymsher (step-dau.) sold Clearwell in 1698
.1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.3.2. Joan Baynham; m. John Vaughan.
TABLE C. Abenhall - VCH-Glocs Vol V.
1. William Abenhall, a woodward in 1216 and 1237.
.1. Ralph Abenhall, fl. 1255.
.1. Ralph Abenhall (possibly same as above), d. c1301.
.1.1. John Abenhall, dsp.<1317.
.1.2. Ralph Abenhall, fl.1317, granted Abenhall to his brother Reynold.
.1.3. Reynold Abenhall, d. c1341.
.1.3.1. Ralph Abenhall, d.c1347; (m. Isabel of Dean; m. by 1354 John
Basset [VCH-Littledean]) SEE TABLE A.
.1.3.1.1. Margaret Abenhall, heir, d. 1375, m. Lawrence Greyndour, of
Newland, fl. 1358. SEE TABLE B.
TABLE D. Ruardean (Hathaways Court) - VCH-Gloucs Vol V.
1. William Hathaway, of Ruardean, d. c1317.
.1. William Hathaway, of Ruardean, d.<1355.
.1. Walter Hathaway, of Ruardean, d.<1366.
.1. Thomas Hathaway, of Ruardean, d. 1376.
.1.1. Isabel Hathaway, heir of Hathaway in 1382, b. c1366, d.>1415, m.
Thomas Walwyn, of Much Marcle, d. 1415.
.1.1.1. Richard Walwyn, heir, of Much Marcle.
.1.1.2. (Thomas Walwyn, of Hellens Manor? [BP])
.1.1.2.1. (Margaret Walwin; m. William de Croft, Sheriff of Hereford
[BP])
.1.1.3. (William Walwyn, of Longford, b. c1390, d. 1440; m. Jane/Joan
dau. of Thomas Whitney. [SGM])
.1.2. Sibyl Hathaway, b. c1369, d.<1450; m. Nicholas Hyde.
.1.2.1. Isabel in 1450 quitclaimed lands inherited from Sibyl (mother)
to William Walwyn of Bickerton.
.1.3. Ellen Hathaway, b. c1372, fl. 1445; m. William Walwyn, d.<1445
(of Bickerton, brother of Thomas d. 1415 [SGM, me])
.1.3.1. William Walwyn, of Bickerton (m. Elizabeth/Joanna Greyndour,
b.c1395 [VoG, SGM]) SEE TABLE B.
Jim Weber
I am reposting my prior message, as it seems that whenever I try to be
a little fancy with special characters (">", "." and "..."), google
screws up my entire message.
Jim Weber
mvernon...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>
> I've collected a bit about the Walwyn family as I have a more recent
> descent from them. Thomas Walwyn who d.1415 had both a son and a
> brother called William (they are each mentioned in his will); the
> brother is identified in the Walwyn pedigree in Duncombe's Hereford as
> being the William of Bickerton who married Joanna Greyndour (it gives
> their son William d.1470, m. Elizabeth dau William Lanks, and had Alice
> d.1518 m. Thomas Baynham d.1500, with issue). The William who was son
> of Thomas Walwyn was of 'Longworth' (usually Longford). According to
> BLG he was b.c1390, m. Jane/Joan dau. Sir Thomas Whitney, and d.1440.
> However, it is still possible that they may have been confused over
> time and swapped some details- the chronology may give a clue. Thomas
> Walwyn and Sir John Greyndour do seem to have been almost exact (within
> 10 years) contemporaries and the article I mentioned gives Greyndour's
> second wife Isabella as mother of Johanna; this would seem to favour
> William the son as more likely chronologically, unless William the
> brother was on a later marriage to a younger woman (although she was
> not then an heiress). Thomas Walwyn (d.1415) may be found in HoP, House
> of Commons 1386-1421, vol iv pp.765-6; Sir John Greyndour is also in
> that series but I don't have a copy of his entry. These provide
> abundant references. (There is no mention of Bickerton in Thomas'
> holdings therein.)
Dear Matthew,
information, plus my proposed changes. I also eliminated the ">"
previously used in my tables, as the ">" had unintended consequences.
Regards,
Jim Weber
----------
VCH-GLOUCS, RUARDEAN (HATHAWAYS)
Thomas Hathaway, the owner in 1366, (Footnote 16) held land in Ruardean
from the Crown for a cash rent paid at St. Briavels castle and at his
death in 1376 his heirs were his infant daughters Isabel, Sibyl, and
Ellen. (Footnote 17) His estates in Ruardean and St. Briavels were
divided between them in 1382, when Isabel and her husband Thomas Walwyn
received her share. (Footnote 18) The Crown retained the other shares
until Sibyl, who married Nicholas Hyde, and Ellen came of age.
(Footnote 19) Thomas Walwyn, of Much Marcle (Herefs.), died in 1415 and
was survived by Isabel and several sons, of whom Richard was his heir.
(Footnote 20) In 1445 Ellen, the widow of William Walwyn, quitclaimed
rents in Ruardean to John Hickox and his wife Isabel, and in 1450
Isabel quitclaimed land which she had inherited from her mother Sibyl
Hyde to William Walwyn of Bickerton in Much Marcle. (Footnote 21)
William held a manor court in 1454, (Footnote 22) when he was also
described as of Ruardean, (Footnote 23) and at his death in 1471
Hathaways, held from Ruardean manor for 1d., passed to his daughter
Alice, wife of Thomas Baynham (Footnote 24) (d. 1500).
[From: 'Ruardean', A History of the County of Gloucester: Volume V:
Bledisloe Hundred, St. Briavels Hundred, The Forest of Dean (1996),
pp. 231-47. URL:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=23261. Date
accessed: 08 July 2005]
----------
UPDATED TABLES for Dean, Greyndour, Hathaway, Baynham, & Walwyn lines.
TABLE A. Mitcheldean - VCH-Gloucs Vol V
1.William son of Norman, of Dean in 1086.
1. Hugh of Dean, fl. 1130.
1. William of Dean, fl. time of Miles of Gloucester (d. 1143) & his son
Roger Earl of Hereford (d. 1155).
1. William of Dean, d.<1199. (this generation is blurred with the prior
in VCH)
1. Geoffrey of Dean, held Mitcheldean 1199.
1. William of Dean, d. c1259.
1. Henry of Dean, d. c1292; (m. Agatha, da. of William de Lasborough.
[VCH-Gloucs, St. Briavels])
1. William of Dean, d. c1310.
1. William of Dean, d. c1319, m. Isabel, fl. 1320, d.<1328.
1.1. Joan of Dean, fl. 1384, m. 1) John Esger;
1.1. .....................by 1334 m. 2) Ralph Baynham (ap Eynon), d. by
1366.
1.1.1. Margaret, heir of Joan of Dean (or by 1st husband?), fl. 1384;
m. William of the hall, constable of Grosmont.
1.1.2. Thomas Baynham, d. in 1376; m. Joan, fl. 1376.
1.1.2.1. Thomas Baynham, d.<1395.
1.1.2.1.1. John Baynham, minor 1395 when he was Joan of Dean's heir,
fl. 1411, d.<1418; (m. Elizabeth. [VoG])
1.1.2.1.1.1. Robert Baynham, d. 1436; (m. Margaret Abrale/Abrahall
[VoG]).
1.1.2.1.1.1.1. Thomas Baynham, minor 1436, d. 1500; m. 1) (Margaret,
da. of Richard or John Huddy [VoG])
1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1. Sir Alexander Baynham, (heir by 1st wife), of
Mitcheldean, d. 1524.
1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.1. John Baynham, of Mitcheldean, d. 1528 (d.s.p.).
1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.2. William Baynham, of Mitcheldean, d. 1568; m. Anne,
fl. 1573 (holding Mitcheldean).
1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.2.1. Robert Baynham, d. 1572; m. Mary, d. 1610; m. Sir
Robert Woodruff, d. 1609.
1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.2.2. Joseph Baynham, d. 1613, granted (temporarily?)
Mitcheldean in 1574 to Thomas Horn.
1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.2.2.1. Alexander Baynham sold Mitcheldean in 1619 to
Nicholas Roberts.
1.1.2.1.1.1.1. Thomas Baynham (above) by 1471 m. 2) Alice Walwyn SEE
TABLE B.
1.2. Isabel of Dean (, d.<1358; m. 1) Ralph Abenhall; m by 1354. 2)
John Basset. [VCH-Littledean]) SEE TABLE C.
TABLE B. Newland (Clearwell Manor) - VCH-Gloucs Vol V.
1. Richard son of Joce, Woodward of Dean, fl. 1223
1. William Joce (maybe son of Richard), Forester of Dean, fl. 1245.
1. William Joce (maybe son of William), held Bearse bailiwick in
Newland in 1282.
1. Philip Joce, given lands in Newland in 1320 by William (or another
William Joce (son of William?)).
1.1. (Sir Philip Joce, of Clearwell, of age 1310, fl. 19 Dec 1341.
[A2A])
1.2. (John Joce, of Newland, of age 1310 (at which time he was named
"senior"). [A2A, VoG])
1.2.1.. John Joce, (b. bef 1310 [A2A]), mentioned with son John in
1365.
1.2.1.1. John Joce, of age 1365, d.<1389; m. by 1378 Isabel; m. by 1395
John Greyndour SEE BELOW.
1.2.2. (Margaret Joce m. Robert Greyndour [VoG])
1.2.2.1. Lawrence Greyndour, fl. 1358; m. Margaret heiress of Abenhall,
d. 1375. SEE TABLE C.
1.2.2.1.1. John Greyndour, d. 1415/6, of Clearwell; m. 1) Marion; m. by
1395 2) Isabel SEE ABOVE.
1.2.2.1.1.1. Robert Greyndour (by 1st wife), d. 1443; m. Joan Rugge, d.
1484; m. bef 1455 John Barre, d. 1483.
1.2.2.1.1.1.1. Elizabeth, b. c1420, dsp. 1452; m. 1) Reynold West [Lord
la Warre]; m. 2) John Tiptoft [Earl of Worcs]
1.2.2.1.1.2. (Elizabeth/Joanna Greyndour, b.c1395 [VoG, SGM]); m.
William Walwyn of Bickerton. SEE TABLE D.
1.2.2.1.1.2.1. William Walwyn, of Bickerton & Ruardean, d. 1471 (m.
Elizabeth dau. of William Lanks [SGM])
1. William Hathaway, of Ruardean, d. c1317.
1. William Hathaway, of Ruardean, d.<1355.
1. Walter Hathaway, of Ruardean, d.<1366.
1. Thomas Hathaway, of Ruardean, d. 1376.
1.1. Isabel Hathaway, heir of Hathaway in 1382, b. c1366, d.>1415, m.
Thomas Walwyn, of Much Marcle, d. 1415.
1.1.1. Richard Walwyn, heir, of Much Marcle.
1.1.2. (Thomas Walwyn, of Hellens Manor? [BP])
1.1.2.1. (Margaret Walwin; m. William de Croft, Sheriff of Hereford
[BP])
1.1.3. (William Walwyn, of Longford, b. c1390, d. 1440; m. Jane/Joan
dau. of Thomas Whitney. [SGM])
1.2. Sibyl Hathaway, b. c1369, d.<1450; m. Nicholas Hyde.
1.2.1. Isabel in 1450 quitclaimed lands inherited from Sibyl (mother)
to William Walwyn of Bickerton.
1.3. Ellen Hathaway, b. c1372, fl. 1445; m. William Walwyn, d.<1445 (of
Bickerton, brother of Thomas d. 1415 [SGM, me])
Jim Weber
I am reposting my prior message for the third (and final) time, and I
am not even going to mention the special characters that I removed in
order to get keep google from screwing up the format of my post.
Jim Weber
mvernon...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>
> I've collected a bit about the Walwyn family as I have a more recent
> descent from them. Thomas Walwyn who d.1415 had both a son and a
> brother called William (they are each mentioned in his will); the
> brother is identified in the Walwyn pedigree in Duncombe's Hereford as
> being the William of Bickerton who married Joanna Greyndour (it gives
> their son William d.1470, m. Elizabeth dau William Lanks, and had Alice
> d.1518 m. Thomas Baynham d.1500, with issue). The William who was son
> of Thomas Walwyn was of 'Longworth' (usually Longford). According to
> BLG he was b.c1390, m. Jane/Joan dau. Sir Thomas Whitney, and d.1440.
> However, it is still possible that they may have been confused over
> time and swapped some details- the chronology may give a clue. Thomas
> Walwyn and Sir John Greyndour do seem to have been almost exact (within
> 10 years) contemporaries and the article I mentioned gives Greyndour's
> second wife Isabella as mother of Johanna; this would seem to favour
> William the son as more likely chronologically, unless William the
> brother was on a later marriage to a younger woman (although she was
> not then an heiress). Thomas Walwyn (d.1415) may be found in HoP, House
> of Commons 1386-1421, vol iv pp.765-6; Sir John Greyndour is also in
> that series but I don't have a copy of his entry. These provide
> abundant references. (There is no mention of Bickerton in Thomas'
> holdings therein.)
Dear Matthew,
Regards,
Jim Weber
----------
VCH-GLOUCS, RUARDEAN (HATHAWAYS)
----------
TABLE A. Mitcheldean - VCH-Gloucs Vol V
1.William son of Norman, of Dean in 1086.
1. Hugh of Dean, fl. 1130.
1. William of Dean, fl. time of Miles of Gloucester (d. 1143) & his son
Roger Earl of Hereford (d. 1155).
1. William of Dean, d. bef.1199. (this generation is blurred with the
prior in VCH)
1. Geoffrey of Dean, held Mitcheldean 1199.
1. William of Dean, d. c1259.
1. Henry of Dean, d. c1292; (m. Agatha, da. of William de Lasborough.
[VCH-Gloucs, St. Briavels])
1. William of Dean, d. c1310.
1. William of Dean, d. c1319, m. Isabel, fl. 1320, d.bef.1328.
1.1. Joan of Dean, fl. 1384, m. 1) John Esger;
1.1. .....................by 1334 m. 2) Ralph Baynham (ap Eynon), d. by
1366.
1.1.1. Margaret, heir of Joan of Dean (or by 1st husband?), fl. 1384;
m. William of the hall, constable of Grosmont.
1.1.2. Thomas Baynham, d. in 1376; m. Joan, fl. 1376.
1.1.2.1. Thomas Baynham, d.bef.1395.
1.1.2.1.1. John Baynham, minor 1395 when he was Joan of Dean's heir,
fl. 1411, d.bef.1418; (m. Elizabeth. [VoG])
1.1.2.1.1.1. Robert Baynham, d. 1436; (m. Margaret Abrale/Abrahall
[VoG]).
1.1.2.1.1.1.1. Thomas Baynham, minor 1436, d. 1500; m. 1) (Margaret,
da. of Richard or John Huddy [VoG])
1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1. Sir Alexander Baynham, (heir by 1st wife), of
Mitcheldean, d. 1524.
1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.1. John Baynham, of Mitcheldean, d. 1528 (d.s.p.).
1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.2. William Baynham, of Mitcheldean, d. 1568; m. Anne,
fl. 1573 (holding Mitcheldean).
1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.2.1. Robert Baynham, d. 1572; m. Mary, d. 1610; m. Sir
Robert Woodruff, d. 1609.
1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.2.2. Joseph Baynham, d. 1613, granted (temporarily?)
Mitcheldean in 1574 to Thomas Horn.
1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.2.2.1. Alexander Baynham sold Mitcheldean in 1619 to
Nicholas Roberts.
1.1.2.1.1.1.1. Thomas Baynham (above) by 1471 m. 2) Alice Walwyn SEE
TABLE B.
1.2. Isabel of Dean (, d.bef.1358; m. 1) Ralph Abenhall; m by 1354. 2)
John Basset. [VCH-Littledean]) SEE TABLE C.
TABLE B. Newland (Clearwell Manor) - VCH-Gloucs Vol V.
1. Richard son of Joce, Woodward of Dean, fl. 1223
1. William Joce (maybe son of Richard), Forester of Dean, fl. 1245.
1. William Joce (maybe son of William), held Bearse bailiwick in
Newland in 1282.
1. Philip Joce, given lands in Newland in 1320 by William (or another
William Joce (son of William?)).
1.1. (Sir Philip Joce, of Clearwell, of age 1310, fl. 19 Dec 1341.
[A2A])
1.2. (John Joce, of Newland, of age 1310 (at which time he was named
"senior"). [A2A, VoG])
1.2.1.. John Joce, (b. bef 1310 [A2A]), mentioned with son John in
1365.
1.2.1.1. John Joce, of age 1365, d.bef.1389; m. by 1378 Isabel; m. by
1395 John Greyndour SEE BELOW.
1.2.2. (Margaret Joce m. Robert Greyndour [VoG])
1.2.2.1. Lawrence Greyndour, fl. 1358; m. Margaret heiress of Abenhall,
d. 1375. SEE TABLE C.
1.2.2.1.1. John Greyndour, d. 1415/6, of Clearwell; m. 1) Marion; m. by
1395 2) Isabel SEE ABOVE.
1.2.2.1.1.1. Robert Greyndour (by 1st wife), d. 1443; m. Joan Rugge, d.
1484; m. bef 1455 John Barre, d. 1483.
1.2.2.1.1.1.1. Elizabeth, b. c1420, dsp. 1452; m. 1) Reynold West [Lord
la Warre]; m. 2) John Tiptoft [Earl of Worcs]
1.2.2.1.1.2. (Elizabeth/Joanna Greyndour, b.c1395 [VoG, SGM]); m.
William Walwyn of Bickerton. SEE TABLE D.
1.2.2.1.1.2.1. William Walwyn, of Bickerton & Ruardean, d. 1471 (m.
Elizabeth dau. of William Lanks [SGM])
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1. Alice Walwyn, d.1518; m. by 1471 1) Thomas Baynham; m.
2) Sir Walter Dennis. SEE TABLE A.
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.1. (Isabel Baynham, d.aft24 Jun 1517; m. Giles Brugge
of Cubberley, d. 1 Dec 1511 [CP 3:152, SGM])
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.2. (Elizabeth Baynham; m. 1) Robert Russell; 2) Robert
Throckmorton of Coughton [AR7, SGM])
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3. Sir Christopher Baynham, heir of his mother, of
Clearwell; (m. Joane Morgan [VoG])
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1. Sir George Baynham, d. 1546; (m. Cecily, da. of
John Gage by Philippa Guilford [VoG])
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.1. Christopher Baynham, minor 1546, fl. 1555,
dsp.bef.1558.
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.2. Richard Baynham, dsp. 1580.
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.3. Thomas Baynham, d. 1611; (m. Mary da. of William
Winter [VoG])
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.3.1. Cecily Baynham; m. Sir William Throckmorton,
Bt, d. 1628.
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.3.1.1. Sir Baynham Throckmorton, of Clearwell, d.
1664.
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.3.1.1.1. Sir Baynham Throckmorton, of Clearwell, d.
c1680; m. Catherine, fl. 1698.
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.3.1.1.1.1. Catherine Wild (dau.) & Carolina
Scrymsher (step-dau.) sold Clearwell in 1698
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.3.2. Joan Baynham; m. John Vaughan.
TABLE C. Abenhall - VCH-Glocs Vol V.
1. William Abenhall, a woodward in 1216 and 1237.
1. Ralph Abenhall, fl. 1255.
1. Ralph Abenhall (possibly same as above), d. c1301.
1.1. John Abenhall, dsp.bef.1317.
1.2. Ralph Abenhall, fl.1317, granted Abenhall to his brother Reynold.
1.3. Reynold Abenhall, d. c1341.
1.3.1. Ralph Abenhall, d.c1347; (m. Isabel of Dean; m. by 1354 John
Basset [VCH-Littledean]) SEE TABLE A.
1.3.1.1. Margaret Abenhall, heir, d. 1375, m. Lawrence Greyndour, of
Newland, fl. 1358. SEE TABLE B.
TABLE D. Ruardean (Hathaways Court) - VCH-Gloucs Vol V.
1. William Hathaway, of Ruardean, d. c1317.
1. William Hathaway, of Ruardean, d.bef.1355.
1. Walter Hathaway, of Ruardean, d.bef.1366.
1. Thomas Hathaway, of Ruardean, d. 1376.
1.1. Isabel Hathaway, heir of Hathaway in 1382, b. c1366, d.aft.1415,
m. Thomas Walwyn, of Much Marcle, d. 1415.
1.1.1. Richard Walwyn, heir, of Much Marcle.
1.1.2. (Thomas Walwyn, of Hellens Manor? [BP])
1.1.2.1. (Margaret Walwin; m. William de Croft, Sheriff of Hereford
[BP])
1.1.3. (William Walwyn, of Longford, b. c1390, d. 1440; m. Jane/Joan
dau. of Thomas Whitney. [SGM])
1.2. Sibyl Hathaway, b. c1369, d.bef.1450; m. Nicholas Hyde.
1.2.1. Isabel in 1450 quitclaimed lands inherited from Sibyl (mother)
to William Walwyn of Bickerton.
1.3. Ellen Hathaway, b. c1372, fl. 1445; m. William Walwyn, d.bef.1445
Jim Weber
I am reposting my prior message for the fourth (and maybe final) time,
and I am not even sure of what else I might have to remove in order to
get keep google from screwing up the format of my post.
Jim Weber
mvernon...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>
> I've collected a bit about the Walwyn family as I have a more recent
> descent from them. Thomas Walwyn who d.1415 had both a son and a
> brother called William (they are each mentioned in his will); the
> brother is identified in the Walwyn pedigree in Duncombe's Hereford as
> being the William of Bickerton who married Joanna Greyndour (it gives
> their son William d.1470, m. Elizabeth dau William Lanks, and had Alice
> d.1518 m. Thomas Baynham d.1500, with issue). The William who was son
> of Thomas Walwyn was of 'Longworth' (usually Longford). According to
> BLG he was b.c1390, m. Jane/Joan dau. Sir Thomas Whitney, and d.1440.
> However, it is still possible that they may have been confused over
> time and swapped some details- the chronology may give a clue. Thomas
> Walwyn and Sir John Greyndour do seem to have been almost exact (within
> 10 years) contemporaries and the article I mentioned gives Greyndour's
> second wife Isabella as mother of Johanna; this would seem to favour
> William the son as more likely chronologically, unless William the
> brother was on a later marriage to a younger woman (although she was
> not then an heiress). Thomas Walwyn (d.1415) may be found in HoP, House
> of Commons 1386-1421, vol iv pp.765-6; Sir John Greyndour is also in
> that series but I don't have a copy of his entry. These provide
> abundant references. (There is no mention of Bickerton in Thomas'
> holdings therein.)
Dear Matthew,
Regards,
Jim Weber
----------
VCH-GLOUCS, RUARDEAN (HATHAWAYS)
----------
TABLE A. Mitcheldean - VCH-Gloucs Vol V
1.William son of Norman, of Dean in 1086.
1. Hugh of Dean, fl. 1130.
1. William of Dean, fl. time of Miles of Gloucester (d. 1143) & his son
Roger Earl of Hereford (d. 1155).
1. William of Dean, d. bef 1199. (this generation is blurred with the
prior in VCH)
1. Geoffrey of Dean, held Mitcheldean 1199.
1. William of Dean, d. c1259.
1. Henry of Dean, d. c1292; (m. Agatha, da. of William de Lasborough.
[VCH-Gloucs, St. Briavels])
1. William of Dean, d. c1310.
1. William of Dean, d. c1319, m. Isabel, fl. 1320, d. bef 1328.
1.1. Joan of Dean, fl. 1384, m. 1) John Esger;
1.1. .....................by 1334 m. 2) Ralph Baynham (ap Eynon), d. by
1366.
1.1.1. Margaret, heir of Joan of Dean (or by 1st husband?), fl. 1384;
m. William of the hall, constable of Grosmont.
1.1.2. Thomas Baynham, d. in 1376; m. Joan, fl. 1376.
1.1.2.1. Thomas Baynham, d. bef 1395.
1.1.2.1.1. John Baynham, minor 1395 when he was Joan of Dean's heir,
fl. 1411, d. bef 1418; (m. Elizabeth. [VoG])
1.1.2.1.1.1. Robert Baynham, d. 1436; (m. Margaret Abrale/Abrahall
[VoG]).
1.1.2.1.1.1.1. Thomas Baynham, minor 1436, d. 1500; m. 1) (Margaret,
da. of Richard or John Huddy [VoG])
1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1. Sir Alexander Baynham, (heir by 1st wife), of
Mitcheldean, d. 1524.
1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.1. John Baynham, of Mitcheldean, d. 1528 (d.s.p.).
1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.2. William Baynham, of Mitcheldean, d. 1568; m. Anne,
fl. 1573 (holding Mitcheldean).
1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.2.1. Robert Baynham, d. 1572; m. Mary, d. 1610; m. Sir
Robert Woodruff, d. 1609.
1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.2.2. Joseph Baynham, d. 1613, granted (temporarily?)
Mitcheldean in 1574 to Thomas Horn.
1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.2.2.1. Alexander Baynham sold Mitcheldean in 1619 to
Nicholas Roberts.
1.1.2.1.1.1.1. Thomas Baynham (above) by 1471 m. 2) Alice Walwyn SEE
TABLE B.
1.2. Isabel of Dean (, d. bef 1358; m. 1) Ralph Abenhall; m by 1354. 2)
John Basset. [VCH-Littledean]) SEE TABLE C.
TABLE B. Newland (Clearwell Manor) - VCH-Gloucs Vol V.
1. Richard son of Joce, Woodward of Dean, fl. 1223
1. William Joce (maybe son of Richard), Forester of Dean, fl. 1245.
1. William Joce (maybe son of William), held Bearse bailiwick in
Newland in 1282.
1. Philip Joce, given lands in Newland in 1320 by William (or another
William Joce (son of William?)).
1.1. (Sir Philip Joce, of Clearwell, of age 1310, fl. 19 Dec 1341.
[A2A])
1.2. (John Joce, of Newland, of age 1310 (at which time he was named
"senior"). [A2A, VoG])
1.2.1.. John Joce, (b. bef 1310 [A2A]), mentioned with son John in
1365.
1.2.1.1. John Joce, of age 1365, d. bef 1389; m. by 1378 Isabel; m. by
1395 John Greyndour SEE BELOW.
1.2.2. (Margaret Joce m. Robert Greyndour [VoG])
1.2.2.1. Lawrence Greyndour, fl. 1358; m. Margaret heiress of Abenhall,
d. 1375. SEE TABLE C.
1.2.2.1.1. John Greyndour, d. 1415/6, of Clearwell; m. 1) Marion; m. by
1395 2) Isabel SEE ABOVE.
1.2.2.1.1.1. Robert Greyndour (by 1st wife), d. 1443; m. Joan Rugge, d.
1484; m. bef 1455 John Barre, d. 1483.
1.2.2.1.1.1.1. Elizabeth, b. c1420, dsp. 1452; m. 1) Reynold West [Lord
la Warre]; m. 2) John Tiptoft [Earl of Worcs]
1.2.2.1.1.2. (Elizabeth/Joanna Greyndour, b.c1395 [VoG, SGM]); m.
William Walwyn of Bickerton. SEE TABLE D.
1.2.2.1.1.2.1. William Walwyn, of Bickerton & Ruardean, d. 1471 (m.
Elizabeth dau. of William Lanks [SGM])
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1. Alice Walwyn, d.1518; m. by 1471 1) Thomas Baynham; m.
2) Sir Walter Dennis. SEE TABLE A.
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.1. (Isabel Baynham, d. aft 24 Jun 1517; m. Giles Brugge
of Cubberley, d. 1 Dec 1511 [CP 3:152, SGM])
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.2. (Elizabeth Baynham; m. 1) Robert Russell; 2) Robert
Throckmorton of Coughton [AR7, SGM])
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3. Sir Christopher Baynham, heir of his mother, of
Clearwell; (m. Joane Morgan [VoG])
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1. Sir George Baynham, d. 1546; (m. Cecily, da. of
John Gage by Philippa Guilford [VoG])
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.1. Christopher Baynham, minor 1546, fl. 1555,
dsp.bef 1558.
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.2. Richard Baynham, dsp. 1580.
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.3. Thomas Baynham, d. 1611; (m. Mary da. of William
Winter [VoG])
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.3.1. Cecily Baynham; m. Sir William Throckmorton,
Bt, d. 1628.
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.3.1.1. Sir Baynham Throckmorton, of Clearwell, d.
1664.
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.3.1.1.1. Sir Baynham Throckmorton, of Clearwell, d.
c1680; m. Catherine, fl. 1698.
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.3.1.1.1.1. Catherine Wild (dau.) & Carolina
Scrymsher (step-dau.) sold Clearwell in 1698
1.2.2.1.1.2.1.1.3.1.3.2. Joan Baynham; m. John Vaughan.
TABLE C. Abenhall - VCH-Glocs Vol V.
1. William Abenhall, a woodward in 1216 and 1237.
1. Ralph Abenhall, fl. 1255.
1. Ralph Abenhall (possibly same as above), d. c1301.
1.1. John Abenhall, dsp.bef 1317.
1.2. Ralph Abenhall, fl.1317, granted Abenhall to his brother Reynold.
1.3. Reynold Abenhall, d. c1341.
1.3.1. Ralph Abenhall, d.c1347; (m. Isabel of Dean; m. by 1354 John
Basset [VCH-Littledean]) SEE TABLE A.
1.3.1.1. Margaret Abenhall, heir, d. 1375, m. Lawrence Greyndour, of
Newland, fl. 1358. SEE TABLE B.
TABLE D. Ruardean (Hathaways Court) - VCH-Gloucs Vol V.
1. William Hathaway, of Ruardean, d. c1317.
1. William Hathaway, of Ruardean, d. bef 1355.
1. Walter Hathaway, of Ruardean, d. bef 1366.
1. Thomas Hathaway, of Ruardean, d. 1376.
1.1. Isabel Hathaway, heir of Hathaway in 1382, b. c1366, d. aft 1415,
m. Thomas Walwyn, of Much Marcle, d. 1415.
1.1.1. Richard Walwyn, heir, of Much Marcle.
1.1.2. (Thomas Walwyn, of Hellens Manor? [BP])
1.1.2.1. (Margaret Walwin; m. William de Croft, Sheriff of Hereford
[BP])
1.1.3. (William Walwyn, of Longford, b. c1390, d. 1440; m. Jane/Joan
dau. of Thomas Whitney. [SGM])
1.2. Sibyl Hathaway, b. c1369, d. bef 1450; m. Nicholas Hyde.
1.2.1. Isabel in 1450 quitclaimed lands inherited from Sibyl (mother)
to William Walwyn of Bickerton.
1.3. Ellen Hathaway, b. c1372, fl. 1445; m. William Walwyn, d. bef 1445
Jim Weber
that I can see. If I click on "see more" for my message, then the post
turns out like I posted it. Otherwise nearly the entire posting is
hidden under "show quoted text".
Does anyone have any ideas about what I am doing wrong?
Jim Weber
Tim Powys-Lybbe
You could always give up on using Google as it may be trying to do
things with the core Usenet that it probably can't. You might just get
a proper news reader (www.forteinc.com is a start) and use a proper
usenet feed. Some ISPs will include a Usenet feed as part of the
service.
Or join Rootsweb with their mailing list gateway to MEDIEVAL-L?
Ginny Wagner
<Does anyone have any ideas about what I am doing wrong?>
Are you choosing the option for 'text only' in your emails? Looks to me like
the html formatting of automatic outline numbering was used originally which
would be stripped in the usenet's text only ability. Ginny Wagner
mvernon...@yahoo.co.uk
I can't help with the posting problems, but on first sight the latest
reconstruction is very neat; and it does ease the chronology that was
looking a little off. Good work!
For your Walwyn chart, the known children of Thomas and Isabel are
Richard, William, Malcolm, Joan wife of Hugh Folyot, and Christine.
Thomas of Hellens in your chart is son of Richard the eldest son. It
looks impossible that Margaret (Croft) could be his daughter
(chronology again); the Croft family history assigns her to the elder
Thomas but she isn't mentioned in his will. Richard is the more likely
generation for her father but isn't called Thomas- more to look into
I'm afraid.
Matthew
Denis Beauregard
écrivait dans soc.genealogy.medieval:
I am not sure what your problem is. It seems at least one of your
attempts is like you want it.
Anyway, some hints:
- avoid using ----------. Try ========= instead or ====8<=====
A line beginning by "-- " is followed by the signature. Many more -
should mean nothing, but let's try to be the safer possible.
- avoid beginning lines with fancy characters, like > | : or . which
may be used to quote.
Denis
--
0 Denis Beauregard
/\/ www.francogene.com
|\ >>Adresse modifiée souvent/email changed frequently<<
/ | Société généalogique canadienne-française
oo oo www.sgcf.com