Rohese de Verdun, mother-in-law of John FitzAlan in 1242

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Chris Phillips

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Dec 21, 2001, 2:33:40 PM12/21/01
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I don't remember having seen this posted before, although I'd guess it is probably the record that gave the pre 20 October 1242 date for the marriage of Maud de Verdun to John FitzAlan, that was quoted in our previous discussion.

26 Henry III. AD 1242
Roesia de Verdun gave 5 marks for a writ that she should not be distrained for the money (denarios) that the executors of John Fitz Alan demand from her, until it be declared whether the money was owed to the aforesaid John, or to John, son of the aforesaid John, who married Roesia's daughter (qui duxit i[n] ux[orem] fil[iam] p[re]fate Roes[ie]).
[Excerpta e Rotulorum Finium vol.1, p.387]

I have stupidly just copied down "ut supra" and forgotten to go back to the previous entry for the date, but 20 Oct 1242 would fall in 26 Henry III.

I think we had overcome some time ago our doubts about whether Maud was the daughter of Rohese or the daughter of Rohese's mother Clemence (as stated in the inquisition post mortem of Robert Waleraund), but it's nice to see the relationship set down in black and white.

Chris Phillips


Douglas Richardson

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Dec 22, 2001, 4:54:50 AM12/22/01
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Dear Chris ~

The Inquisition Post Mortem of Richard Fitz Alan, Earl of Arundel
(died 1302) taken on 25 June, 30 Edward I, shows that he held the
following property in Warwickshire at the time of his death:

"Flecknoe (in Wolfhamcote). 23 messuages and 20 virgates of land in
villenage (full extent given with names of tenants), which one Rose
(Roesia) de Verdun gave to John Fitz Alan, earl of Arundell, with Maud
her daughter in free marriage, tenure unspecified. He held nothing of
the king in the county." [Reference: Calender IPM, 4 (1913), pg. 53].

This record is further confirmation that Rohese de Verdun's daughter,
Maud, married John Fitz Alan, Baron of Clun and Oswestry, Salop.

Presumably the property at Flecknoe was subsequently passed onto Earl
Richard's daughter, Alice de Arundel, wife of Stephen de Segrave, 3rd
Lord Segrave, as I find the manor of Flecknoe is later mentioned in a
fine involving Alice's son, John de Segrave, 4th Lord Segrave [see
Ethel Stokes, Warwickshire Feet of Fines, 2 (Dugdale Soc., vol. 15)
(1939): 200-201].

For evidence that Earl Richard had a such a daughter, Alice (or
Alesia), see Calendar of IPM, 4 (1915):39, where she is specifically
named. For evidence that Stephen de Segrave's wife, Alice, was Alice
de Arundel, see Miscellanea Genealogica et Heraldica, 5th ser., 9
(1935-37), pg. 166, which in turn cites the Register of Chaucombe
Priory. This article also cites other evidence which links Alice,
wife of Stephen de Segrave, to the Fitz Alan/Arundel family of
Shropshire.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

E-mail: royala...@msn.com


cgp...@cgp100.dabsol.co.uk (Chris Phillips) wrote in message news:<016601c18a56$43fa9240$940586d9@oemcomputer>...

Douglas Richardson

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Dec 23, 2001, 9:12:09 AM12/23/01
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Dear Newsgroup:

The parentage of Alice (or Alesia) de Arundel, wife of Stephen de
Segrave, is not identified in the account of the Segrave family found
in Complete Peerage. However, as I stated in a post made earlier this
week, it appears she was a hitherto unnoticed daughter of Richard Fitz
Alan, Earl of Arundel, died 1302, by his wife, Alice (or Alesia) di
Saluzzo.

Proof of Alice's existence is found in Calendar of Inquisitions Post
Mortem, vol. 4 (1913), pg. which specifically states that the wardship
of two parts of a messuage in Upton, Shropshire was "in the hand of
Alesia the said earl's daughter by his gift."

Alice's maiden name is found in the Register of Chaucombe Priory, an
abstract of which is printed by Nichols. Miscellanea Genealogica et
Heraldica, 5th series, 9 (1935-1937), pp. 166 notes that Alice's
brother, Edmund, Earl of Arundel, settled property on Alice and her
husband, Stephen de Segrave [see also Calendar of IPM, 6 (1910): 429].

The property in question was the manor of Flecknoe (in Wolfhamcote),
co. Warwick, which property previously served as the maritagium of
Alice's great-grandmother, Maud de Verdun, daughter of Rohese de
Verdun. A record of the descent of Flecknoe from Nicholas de Verdun
down to John de Segrave, 4th Lord Segrave, is shown below. The
references cited show the ownership of Flecknoe as reflected in
contemporary sources.

1. Nicholas de Verdun [Reference: Book of Fees, vol. 1 (1920): 39].

2. Rohese de Verdun, married Theobald le Boteler [Reference: Book of
Fees, vol. 1 (1920), pp. 507].

3. Maud de Verdun, wife of John Fitz Alan, Baron of Clun and Oswestry,
Shropshire, died c. 1267 [Reference: Calendar IPM, 4 (1913), pg. 53].

4. John Fitz Alan, Baron of Clun and Oswestry, Shropshire, died 1272,
married Isabel de Mortimer.

5. Richard Fitz Alan, Knt., Earl of Arundel, died 1302, married Alice
(or Alesia) di Saluzzo [Reference: Calendar IPM, 4 (1913), pg. 53].

6. Alice (or Alesia) de Arundel, died 7 February 1340, married Stephen
de Segrave, 3rd Lord Segrave [References: Calendar IPM, 6 (1910): 429,
432].

7. John de Segrave, Knt., 4th Lord Segrave, died 1353, married
Margaret of Brotherton [References: Calendar IPM, 10 (1921): 108;
Ethel Stokes, Warwickshire Feet of Fines, 2 (1939), pp. 200-201].

Further reference to Alice, wife of Stephen de Segrave, may be found
in Index of Placita de Banco, 1327-1328 (PRO, London, Lists and
Indexes, No. 32) (repr. 1963) 1:88, 276; 2:693, 726. She died 7
February 1340, as per the Register of Chaucombe Priory. This date is
not given in Complete Peerage.

By way of her grandmother, Isabel de Mortimer, Alice de Arundel is
descended from Gladys Dhu, wife of Ralph de Mortimer, daughter of
Llywelyn ap Iowerth, Prince of North Wales. Alice's maiden name,
Arundel, reflects the fact that the Fitz Alan family changed their
name to Arundel during Alice's lifetime. I've provided a list of the
colonial immigrants who descend from Alice de Arundel below.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

E-mail: royala...@msn.com

- - - - - - - - - -

List of immigrants descended from Alice de Arundel, wife of Stephen de
Segrave:

1. William Asfordby.

2. Essex Beville.

3. William Bladen.

4. Joseph Bolles.

5. Elizabeth Bosvile.

6. Charles Calvert.

7. Frances, Jane & Katherine Deighton.

8. Thomas Dudley.

9. John Fenwick.

10. Edward Foliot.

11. Muriel Gurdon.

12. Anne Humphrey.

13. Thomas Ligon.

14. Nathaniel Littleton.

15. Thomas Lloyd.

16. Philip & Thomas Nelson.

17. Herbert Pelham.

18. Henry & William Randolph.

19. George Reade.

20. Diana & Grey Skipwith.

21. John Stockman.

22. Olive Welby.

23. John West.

24. Thomas Wingfield.

25. Hawte Wyatt.

royala...@msn.com (Douglas Richardson) wrote in message news:<5cf47a19.0112...@posting.google.com>...

Alan B. Wilson

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Dec 23, 2001, 5:34:13 PM12/23/01
to
In article <5cf47a19.01122...@posting.google.com>,
royala...@msn.com (Douglas Richardson) wrote:

> Dear Newsgroup:
>
> The parentage of Alice (or Alesia) de Arundel, wife of Stephen de
> Segrave, is not identified in the account of the Segrave family found
> in Complete Peerage. However, as I stated in a post made earlier this
> week, it appears she was a hitherto unnoticed daughter of Richard Fitz
> Alan, Earl of Arundel, died 1302, by his wife, Alice (or Alesia) di
> Saluzzo.
>

<snip>


>
> List of immigrants descended from Alice de Arundel, wife of Stephen de
> Segrave:
>
> 1. William Asfordby.
>
> 2. Essex Beville.
>
> 3. William Bladen.
>
> 4. Joseph Bolles.
>
> 5. Elizabeth Bosvile.
>
> 6. Charles Calvert.
>
> 7. Frances, Jane & Katherine Deighton.
>

<snip>

I notice your list does not include Edward Carleton. Does the descent
which I list below contain an error?


(1) Stephen de SEGRAVE Lord Segrave [41], [571, p. 256], [601]
d. bef 12 Dec 1325 [41]
& Alice (Alicia) de Arundel [601]
d. 7 Feb 1340 [601, +]
(2) John de SEGRAVE Baron [74], [233], [571, pp. 247, 256], [601]
d. 1 Apr 1353 [41]
& Margaret of Brotherton [74], [233], [571, pp. 247, 256], [601]
d. 24 Mar 1398/1399 [41]
m. 1337/1338 [233]
(3) Elizabeth de SEGRAVE [74], [571, p. 247]
d. bef 9 May 1369 [368]
& John de MOWBRAY Lord Mowbray of Axholme [41], [74], [75], [455, p.
572],
[571, p. 247]
d. 9 Oct 1368, Thrace slain by Saracens [368], [74], [41]
m. ca 1349 [41]
(4) Eleanor de MOWBRAY [74], [455, p. 572], [571, p. 371]
d. 8 Apr 1426 [368, +]
& John de WELLES Lord Welles [41], [74], [193], [400], [455, p. 572],
[571, p. 371]
d. 26 Aug 1421 [41]
m. bef May 1326 [368, =], [571, =]
(5) Margery de WELLES [188], [193], [455, p. 572]
d. 29 May 1422 [41]
& Stephen le SCROPE Sir [41], [188], [193], [455, p. 572], [553]
d. 25 Jan 1405/1406, probably Turnham Hall [188], [193], [553, +@]
m. bef 15 Dec 1376 [41]
(6) John le SCROPE Lord Scrope [368, "Scrope" p. 249], [41, xi,
531-572], [75, See 46:9], [188], [193], [455, p. 111], [571,
pp. 109, 325]
d. 15 Nov 1455 [188]
& Elizabeth CHAWORTH [41, xi, 531-572], [75, See 46:9], [188],
[455, p. 111], [455], [368, "Scrope" p. 249], [571, pp. 109,
325]
m. bef 24 Aug 1418 [41]
(7) Thomas le SCROPE Lord Scrope of Masham [41], [188], [571,
pp. 29, 109]
d. 1475 [188], [571, p. 109 +]
& Elizabeth de GREYSTOKE [188], [571, p. 109]
d. aft 20 Dec 1485 [188]
m. 4 May 1453 [188]
(8) Alice le SCROPE [188], [571, pp. 29, 346]
& Sir James STRANGEWAYS [188], [571, pp. 29, 346]
d. 16 Dec 1521, of Whortton [368], [188]
m. ca 7 Sep 1472 [368]
(9) Joan STRANGEWAYS [188], [455, p. 397], [571, p.
29]**
d. 15 Nov 1546 [368]
& John de BIGOD [188], [571]
d. bef 22 Jan 1514/1515, slain, probably Flodden
[368], [188]
m. ca 1488/1489 [368]
(10) Elizabeth BIGOD [188], [193], [338], [553, 9Q3N-
NB], [571, pp. 29, 72]
d. aft 3 May 1538 [368]
& Sir Stephen HAMMERTON [74], [188], [193], [553,
9Q3N-M5], [571, pp. 29, 72]
d. 25 May 1537, Of London, England [188, +], [553,
@], [571, +@]
m. ca 1510 [553, =]
(11) Agnes HAMERTON [188], [368], [217], [541,
AFN:VBCZ-FX], [571, p. 72]
d. 1588 [368]
& Walter Charles STRICKLAND [71], [74], [188],
[217], [338], [368], [541, AFN:QLL4-TP], [571,
p. 72]
d. 8 Apr 1569, Sizergh (Westmoreland) England
[74, +], [553, +@]
m. bef 1538 [368, =], [553, = (ca 1540)]
(12) Ellen STRICKLAND [188], [217], [220],
[368], [71], [73], [74], [553, QLL4-RC],
[571, p. 72]
d. aft 1623, Of Beeford (Yorks) England
[73],
[71], [541, + (aft 1622)]
& John CARLETON [71], [73], [74], [188],
[217],
[220], [553, QLL4-B4], [571, p. 72]
d. Jan 1622, Beeford (Yorks) England
[541, +@
(27 Jan 1623)]
m. bef 1583, Sizergh (Westmoreland) England
[74], [541, =@ (1582)], [571, =]
(13) Walter CARLETON [71], [73], [74],
[188], [368], [553, PJ51-45], [571, p.
72]
d. 4 Oct 1623, Hornsea (Yorks) England
[220], [71], [73], [74], [188], [541,
+@], [571, +@]
& Jane GIBBON [188], [368], [71], [73],
[74], [220], [553, PJ51-5B], [571, p. 72]
d. aft 1639 [74], [571, p. 72]
m. 1607, Hornsea (Yorks) England [74],
[220], [553, =@]
(14) Edward CARLETON [71], [73], [74],
[130], [188], [220], [368], [553,
8D8J-L7], [571, p. 72]
d. ca 1661, England [71], [220], [541,
+@ (29 Nov 1678, Bartholomew,
London, England]
& Ellen NEWTON [130], [188], [220],
[71],
[74], [73], [255], [553, 8D8J-MD],
[571, p. 72]
d. aft 1656, England [188], [220],
[553, +@ (aft 1644, Rowley, MA)]
m. 3 Nov 1636, St. Martin Micklegate
(Yorks) England [188], [71], [75],
[220], [255], [541, =@], [571, =@]
(7) Elizabeth le SCROPE [41], [75], [188], [193], [571, p.
325]
d. 10 May 1504 [571, p. 325]
& Henry le SCROPE Lord Scrope of Bolton [75, 46:9], [41],
[188], [193], [571, p. 325]
d. 14 Jan 1458/1459, ae 40 [41]
m. 1435 [41]
(8) Elizabeth SCROPE [188], [193], [571, p. 29]
d. 31 May 1503 [188]
& Sir John BIGOD [188], [193], [571, p. 29]
d. 29 Mar 1461, killed at Tourton [188]
(9) Sir Ralph BIGOD [188], [338], [571, p. 29]
d. 22 Apr 1515 [368]
& Margaret CONSTABLE [188], [571, p. 29]
m. bef Feb 1482 [368]
(10) John de BIGOD [188], [571]**
d. bef 22 Jan 1514/1515, slain, probably Flodden
[368], [188]
& Joan STRANGEWAYS [188], [455, p. 397], [571, p. 29]
d. 15 Nov 1546 [368]
m. ca 1488/1489 [368]

Sources

41. Cokayne, George Edward, 1825-1911, Vicary Gibbs (ed.), The complete
peerage of England, Scotland, Ireland, and the United Kingdon, London: The
St. Catherine Press, ltd., 1910-1959. 13 v. in 14.
71. G:Crlt-3. Prescott, Worrall Dumont, 1900-. A record concerning Lt.
John Carlton of Rowley and Haverhill, Massachusetts, and his descent from
King Edward the Third who ruled England from 1327 to 1377 and about John
Carlton and Jane Gilmore Carlton. . . . New Rochelle, NY: Printed by
Westchester Lithographers, 1967. CSL Sutro CS71.C2778 1967. ×71
73. Moriarty, George Andrews, The Plantagenet Ancestry of King Edward III
and Queen Philippa, Salt Lake City, Utah: Mormon Pioneer Genealogy
Society, 1985.
74. Weis, Frederick Lewis, Ancestral roots of certain American colonists
who came to America before 1700; 7th ed., with additions and correctiuons
by Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr. ; assisted by David Faris, Baltimore, MD:
Genealogical Publishing Co., 1992.
75. Weis, Frederick Lewis, The Magna Charta Surities, 1215, 4th ed., with
additions and corrections by Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr., with David Faris,
Baltimore, MD: Genealogical Publishing Co., 1991.
130. H:Rwly-1. Blodgette, George Brainard, 1845-1918. Early settlers of
Rowley, Massachusetts. Somersworth, NH: New England History Press,
1981. CSL Sutro F74 R88 B612 1981. ×130
188. G:Crlt-6. Sheppard, Walter Lee, Jr. Ancestry of Edward Carleton and
Ellen Newton his wife. Salt Lake City: microfilm of typescript, 1977.
FHL 1020900 ×188
193. Foster, Joseph, 1844-1905, Pedigrees of the county families of
Yorkshire. Vol. I - West Riding; vil. II - North and East Riding,
London: W. Wilfred Head, Plough Court, Fetter Lane, 1874.
217. G:Strc-5. Washington, S. H. Lee. "The early history of the
Stricklands of Sizergh, ancestors of the Carletons of Massachusetts and
the Washingtons of Virginia." NEHGR (r)117 xcvi, 99-126 & 307-320. ×217
220. G:Crlt-7. Hazen, Tracy Elliot. "The English ancestry of Edward
Carlton of Rowley, Mass." NEHGR xciii, 3-46. ×220
233. Schwennicke, Detlev (ed.), Europaische Stammtafeln : Stammtafeln zur
Geschichte der europaischen Staaten / begrundet von Wilhelm Karl Prinz zu
Isenburg ; fortgefuhrt von Frank Baron Freytag von Loringhoven ; neue
Folge herausgegeben von...., Marburg: Stargardt, 1978-<1995 >.
255. G:Nwtn. Tracy Elliot Hazen, "The ancestry of Ellen Newton, wife of
Edward Carlton of Rowley, Mass." NEHGR xciv, 1-18. ×255
338. G:Strc-6. Hornyold, Henry. Genealogical memoirs of Strickland of
Sizergh : being a brief account of the family and its branches. Kendal:
Titus Wilson, 1928. FHL 1440935 item 4. ×338
368. Faris, David, Plantagenet ancestry of seventeenth-century colonists,
Baltimore, MD: Genealogical Publishers, 1996.
400. G:Mrmn-2. Banks, Thomas Christopher, 1765-1854. History of the
Ancient Noble Family of Marmyun. London: H. K. Causton, 1817. Lib.
Cong. # CS439 M313 1817 ×400
455. Burke, Sir Bernard, Dormant, Abeyant, Forfeited, and Extinct Peerages
of the British Empire, Baltimore, MD: Genealogical Publishing Co., 1996.
Reprinted from edition originally published in London by Burke's Peerage, 1883.
541. LDS, "family_group_record."
553. "Ancestral File," The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints,
http://www.familysearcg.org/Search/af.
571. Faris, David, Plantagenet ancestry of seventeenth-century colonists;
2nd ed., Boston: New England Historic Genealogical Society, 1999.
601. Richardson, Douglas, "Alice de Arundel, wife of Stephen de Segrave
Was: Rohese de Verdun and her Fitz Alan/Arundel descendants,"
soc.genealogy.medieval, 23 Dec 2001.
Alice de Arundel

--
Alan B. Wilson
abwi...@uclink4.berkeley.edu

Douglas Richardson

unread,
Dec 24, 2001, 5:06:18 AM12/24/01
to
Dear Alan ~

You appear to have made a mistake in the descent you outlined below
for Edward Carleton. Edward Carleton's ancestor, Stephen le Scrope,
2nd Lord Scrope of Masham, died 1406, married before 1376 Margery,
widow of John de Huntingfield. Margery is thought to be a daughter of
John de Welles, 3rd Lord Welles, by his wife, Maud de Roos. You have
Margery listed below as a daughter of John de Welles, 5th Lord Welles,
which is chrologically impossible. John de Welles, 5th Lord Welles,
was born in 1352, and married before 1386 Eleanor Mowbray. Your date
for the marriage of John Welles and Eleanor Mowbray (1326) is some
sixty years off the mark.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

E-mail: royala...@msn.com

- - - - - - -

abwi...@uclink4.berkeley.edu (Alan B. Wilson) wrote in message news:<abwilson-231...@as3-2-81.hip.berkeley.edu>...


> In article <5cf47a19.01122...@posting.google.com>,
> royala...@msn.com (Douglas Richardson) wrote:
>
> > Dear Newsgroup:
> >
> > The parentage of Alice (or Alesia) de Arundel, wife of Stephen de
> > Segrave, is not identified in the account of the Segrave family found
> > in Complete Peerage. However, as I stated in a post made earlier this
> > week, it appears she was a hitherto unnoticed daughter of Richard Fitz
> > Alan, Earl of Arundel, died 1302, by his wife, Alice (or Alesia) di
> > Saluzzo.
> >
> <snip>
> >
> > List of immigrants descended from Alice de Arundel, wife of Stephen de
> > Segrave:
> >
> > 1. William Asfordby.
> >
> > 2. Essex Beville.
> >
> > 3. William Bladen.
> >
> > 4. Joseph Bolles.
> >
> > 5. Elizabeth Bosvile.
> >
> > 6. Charles Calvert.
> >

Alan B. Wilson

unread,
Dec 24, 2001, 1:13:03 PM12/24/01
to
In article <5cf47a19.01122...@posting.google.com>,
royala...@msn.com (Douglas Richardson) wrote:

> Dear Alan ~
>
> You appear to have made a mistake in the descent you outlined below
> for Edward Carleton. Edward Carleton's ancestor, Stephen le Scrope,
> 2nd Lord Scrope of Masham, died 1406, married before 1376 Margery,
> widow of John de Huntingfield. Margery is thought to be a daughter of
> John de Welles, 3rd Lord Welles, by his wife, Maud de Roos. You have
> Margery listed below as a daughter of John de Welles, 5th Lord Welles,
> which is chrologically impossible. John de Welles, 5th Lord Welles,
> was born in 1352, and married before 1386 Eleanor Mowbray. Your date
> for the marriage of John Welles and Eleanor Mowbray (1326) is some
> sixty years off the mark.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
>
> E-mail: royala...@msn.com
>

<snip>

Dear Douglas -

Thanks for finding and pointing out my double errors. I see I jumped to
the wrong generation in CP xi, 564. My apolopies to readers for the
wasted bandwidth. Alan

Douglas Richardson

unread,
Dec 26, 2001, 9:11:34 AM12/26/01
to
Dear Newsgroup ~

In my post this past week, I listed the names of 25 plus colonial
immigrants who descend from Alice de Arundel (died 1340), wife of
Stephen de Segrave, 3rd Lord Segrave. Unfortunately, I inadvertedly
left out the names of a few immigrants on that list. Below please
find a corrected list of immigrants. Additional information on Alice
de Arundel and her descendants will be found in the forthcoming book,
Plantagenet Ancestry, 3rd edition.

If someone is so inclined, perhaps they would be kind enough to post
the links from Alice de Arundel down to the various immigrants here on
the newsgroup.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

E-mail: royala...@msn.com

- - - - - - - -

Corrected List of Immigrants descended from Alice de Arundel, wife of
Stephen de Segrave:

l. William Asfordby.

2. Barbara Aubrey.

3. Essex Beville.

4. William Bladen.

5. George & Nehemiah Blakiston.

6. Joseph Bolles.

7. Elizabeth Bosvile.

8. Charles Calvert.

9. Frances, Jane & Katherine Deighton.

10. Thomas Dudley.

11. John Fenwick.

11. Henry Fleete.

12. Edward Foliot.

13. Thomas Goddard.

14. Muriel Gurdon.

15. Anne Humphrey.

16. Mary Launce.

17. Thomas Ligon.

18. Nathaniel Littleton.

19. Thomas Lloyd.

20. Thomas Lunsford.

21. Philip & Thomas Nelson.

22. Herbert Pelham.

23. Henry & William Randolph.

24. George Reade.

25. Richard Saltonstall.

26. Diana & Grey Skipwith.

27. Maria Johanna Somerset.

28. John Stockman.

29. Olive Welby.

30. John West.

31. Thomas Wingfield.

32. Hawte Wyatt.


royala...@msn.com (Douglas Richardson) wrote in message news:<5cf47a19.01122...@posting.google.com>...

John Steele Gordon

unread,
Dec 26, 2001, 11:15:09 AM12/26/01
to

"Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:5cf47a19.01122...@posting.google.com...

> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> In my post this past week, I listed the names of 25 plus colonial
> immigrants who descend from Alice de Arundel (died 1340), wife of
> Stephen de Segrave, 3rd Lord Segrave. Unfortunately, I inadvertedly
> left out the names of a few immigrants on that list. Below please
> find a corrected list of immigrants. Additional information on Alice
> de Arundel and her descendants will be found in the forthcoming book,
> Plantagenet Ancestry, 3rd edition.
>
> If someone is so inclined, perhaps they would be kind enough to post
> the links from Alice de Arundel down to the various immigrants here on
> the newsgroup.


Here's the link for Maria Johanna Somerset:

1) Alice de Arundel = Stephen de Seagrave, 3rd Lord Seagrave
2) John de Seagrave, 4th Lord Seagrave = Margaret, Duchess of Norfolk
3) Elizabeth de Seagrave = John Mowbray, 4th Lord Mowbray
4) Thomas de Mowbray = Elizabeth Fitzalan
5) Margaret Mowbray = Sir Robert Howard
6) John Howard = Katherine Moleyns
7) Thomas Howard, 2nd Duke of Norfolk = Elizabeth Tilney
8) Lord Edmund Howard = Joyce Culpepper
9) Margaret Howard = Sir Thomas Arundell
10) Sir Matthew Arundell = Margaret Willoughby
11) Thomas Arundell = Anne Philipson
12) Mary Arundell = Lord John Somerset
13) Charles Somerset = Catherine Baskerville
14) Maria Johanna Somerset, immigrant to Maryland

There is also a descent to an immigrant not on your list:

1) Alice de Arundel = Stephen de Seagrave, 3rd Lord Seagrave
2) John de Seagrave, 4th Lord Seagrave = Margaret, Duchess of Norfolk
3) Elizabeth de Seagrave = John Mowbray, 4th Lord Mowbray
4) Eleanor Mowbray = John Welles, 5th Baron Welles
5) Eudo de Welles = Maud de Greystock
6) Lionel de Welles, 6th Baron Welles = Joan Waterton
7) Cecily Welles = Robert Willoughby
8) Christopher Willoughby = Margaret Jenney
9) Margaret Willoughby = Sir Thomas Tyrrell
10) Anne Tyrrell = Sir John Clere
11) Sir Edward Clere = Frances Fulmerston
12) Anne Clere = William Gilbert
13) Temperance Gilbert = John Alsop
14) Elizabeth Alsop, immigrant to Connecticut

JSG


Robert O'Connor

unread,
Dec 26, 2001, 4:01:58 PM12/26/01
to
Here is the link to Randolph:

Alice FitzAlan = Stephen, 3rd Baron Segrave
/
John, 4th Baron Segrave = Margaret, Duchess of Norfolk
/
Elizabeth Segrave = John, 4th Baron Mowbray
/
Thomas Mowbray, 1st Duke of Norfolk = Lady Elizabeth FitzAlan
/
Lady Margaret Mowbray = Sir Robert Howard
/
Catherine Howard = Edward Neville, 3rd Baron Bargavenny
/
Catherine Neville = Robert Tanfield
/
William Tanfield = Isabel Staveley
/
Francis Tanfield = Dorothy Cave
/
Anne Tanfield = Clement Vincent
/
Elizabeth Vincent = Richard Lane
/
Dorothy Lane = William Randolph
/
Richard Randolph = Elizabeth Ryland
/
Col William Randolph of Virginia


Robert O'Connor


Kevin Miller

unread,
Dec 26, 2001, 7:58:28 PM12/26/01
to
Alice de Arundel - to - Jane Deighton

1-Alice de Arundel (-7 May 1340)
sp: Stephen de Segrave, 3rd Baron Segrave
2-John de Segrave, 4th Baron Segrave
sp: Margaret of Norfolk, Duchess of Norfolk
3-Elizabeth de Segrave, Baroness Segrave
sp: Sir John de Mowbray Knt, 4th Baron Mowbray
4-Sir Thomas de Mowbray K.G, Duke of Norfolk
sp: Elizabeth Fitz Alan
5-Isabel de Mowbray
sp: James "the Just" de Berkeley, 6th Baron / 1st Lord Berkeley
6-Maurice "the Lawier" de Berkeley, 3rd Lord Berkeley
sp: Isabel Mead
7-Anne de Berkeley
sp: Sir William Dennis of Dyrham
8-Isabel Dennis
sp: Sir John Berkeley of Stoke Gifford
9-Elizabeth Berkeley
sp: Henry Lygon of Upston St.Leonards
10-Elizabeth Lygon
sp: Edward Basset Esq., of Uley
11-Jane Basset
sp: Dr John Deighton
12-Jane Deighton

Sincerely Kevin

MWelch8442

unread,
Dec 27, 2001, 1:59:52 PM12/27/01
to
Alice de Arundel to Olive Welby
Alice de Arundel=Stephen de Segrave
/
John de Segrave=Margaret of Norfolk
/
Elizabeth de Segrave=John de Mowbray
/
Joan de Mowbray=Thomas Gray
/
Maud Gray=Sir Robert Ogle
/
Elizabeth Ogle=William Heron
/
Elizabeth Heron=John Heron
/
Elizabeth Heron=Sir Robert Tailboys
/
Maud Tailboys=Sir Robert Tyrwhit
/
Katherine Tyrwhit=Sir Richard Thimbleby
/
Elizabeth Thimbleby=Thomas Welby
/
Richard Welby=Frances Bulkeley
/
Olive Welby=Dea Henry Farwell
Sincerely yours Mike Welch

MWelch8442

unread,
Dec 27, 2001, 2:56:57 PM12/27/01
to
Alice de Arundel to George Reade
Alice de Arundel = Stephen de Segrave

/
John de Segrave=Margaret of Norfolk
/
Elizabeth de Segrave=John de Mowbray
/
Joan de Mowbray=Thomas Gray
/
Maud Gray= Sir Robert Ogle

/
Elizabeth Ogle=William Heron
/
Elizabeth Heron=John Heron
/
Elizabeth Heron=Sir Robert Tailboys
/
George Tailboys=Elizabeth Gascoigne
/
Anne Tailboys=Edward Dymoke
/
Frances Dymoke=Thomas Windebank
/
Mildred Windebank=Robert Reade
/
George Reade=Elizabeth Martiau

MWelch8442

unread,
Dec 27, 2001, 3:25:06 PM12/27/01
to
Alice de Arundel to William Bladen
Alice de Arundel=Stephen de Segrave

/
John de Segrave=Margaret of Norfolk
/
Elizabeth de Segrave=John de Mowbray
/
Joan de Mowbray=Thomas Gray
/
Maud Gray=Sir Robert Ogle

/
Elizabeth Ogle=William Heron
/
Elizabeth Heron=John Heron
/
Elizabeth Heron=Sir Robert Tailboys
/
Maud Tailboys=Sir Robert Tyrwhit
/
Sir William Tyrwhit=Isabel Girlington
/
Sir Robert Tyrwhit=Elizabeth Oxenbridge
/
Elizabeth Tyrwhit=Edmund Sheffield
/
Frances Sheffield=Philip Fairfax
/
William Fairfax=Frances Chaloner
/
Isabel Fairfax=Nathaniel Bladen
/
William Bladen=Anne Van Swearingen

MWelch8442

unread,
Dec 27, 2001, 5:10:43 PM12/27/01
to
Here's at least one line for Gov. Dudley

MWelch8442

unread,
Dec 27, 2001, 5:18:00 PM12/27/01
to
Sorry hit the wrong button here is at least one line for Gov Dudley
Alice de Arundel to Thomas Dudley

Alice de Arundel=Stephen de Segrave
/
John de Segrave=Margaret of Norfolk
/
Elizabeth de Segrave=John de Mowbray
/
Thomas de Mowbray=Elizabeth Fitz Alan
/
Isabel de Mowbray=Henry Ferrers
/
Elizabeth Ferrers=Edward Grey
/
John Grey=Elizabeth Wydeville
/
Thomas Grey=Cecily Bonville
/
Cecily Grey=John Dudley
/
Capt Henry Dudley= N.N. Ashton
/
Capt Roger Dudley=Susanna Thorne
/
Gov Thomas Dudley=Dorothy Yorke

James R. Yeowell

unread,
Dec 27, 2001, 8:30:52 PM12/27/01
to
Hello all,

Here is a line from Alice de Arundel to Hawt Wyatt (I hope, please
correct me if I'm wrong!)

1) Alice de Arundel = Stephen de Segrave, 3rd Lord Segrave
2) John de Segrave, 4th Lord Segrave = Margaret, Duchess of Norfolk
3) Elizabeth de Segrave = John de Mowbray, 4th Lord Mowbray
4) Thomas de Mowbray, 1st Duke of Norfolk, 6th Lord Mowbray =
Elizabeth FitzAlan
5) Margaret de Mowbray = Sir Robert Howard, K.G.
6) Katherine Howard = Sir Edward Neville, 3rd Baron Abergavenny
7) Margaret Neville = John Brooke, 7th Baron Chobham
8) Thomas Brooke, 8th Lord Chobham = Dorothy Heydon
9) Lady Elizabeth Brooke = Sir Thomas Wyatt
10) Sir Thomas Wyatt = Lady Jane Hawt
11) Sir George Wyatt = Lady Jane Finch
12) Rev. Hawt Wyatt

Regards,

James R. Yeowell

"Once found, make a note of..." Captain Cuttle and Notes and Queries

James R. Yeowell

unread,
Dec 27, 2001, 8:33:26 PM12/27/01
to
Hello all,

Here is a line from Alice de Arundel to Capt. John West (again, I hope
this information is correct, please correct me if I am wrong):

1) Alice de Arundel = Stephen de Segrave, 3rd Lord Segrave
2) John de Segrave, 4th Lord Segrave = Margaret, Duchess of Norfolk
3) Elizabeth de Segrave = John de Mowbray, 4th Lord Mowbray

4) Alianor de Mowbray = Sir John Welles, 5th Baron Welles
5) Eudo de Welles = Maud de Greystoke
6) Sir Lionel de Welles, K.G., 6th Lord Welles = Joan de Waterton
7) Alianor de Welles = Sir Thomas Hoo, Lord of Hoo and Hastings
8) Anne Hoo = Sir Roger Copley
9) Eleanor Copley = Sir Thomas West, 5th Lord West
10) Sir George West = Elizabeth Morton
11) Sir William West, 10th Lord de la Warre
12) Sir Thomas West, 2nd Lord Delaware = Anne Knollys
13) Capt. John West

malinda

unread,
Dec 27, 2001, 9:09:11 PM12/27/01
to
Hello,

Do you have any further information on the YORKE family ? There is a YORKE
family
in Northeast England in the ancestry of the Wrights of Plowland, Holderness,
Sowerby,Bolton-on-Swale, Yorkshire via the wife (Mary Randes) of the Very
Rev
George Meryton (d 1624) Dean of York . Her grandparents were Thomas Yorke
and Mary Sutton.

~malinda


----- Original Message -----
From: "MWelch8442" <mwelc...@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2001 4:18 PM
Subject: RE: Revised List of Descendants of Alice de Arundel, wife of
Stephen de Segrave

> Sorry hit the wrong button here is at least one line for Gov Dudley
> Alice de Arundel to Thomas Dudley

> Alice de Arundel=Stephen de Segrave
> /
> John de Segrave=Margaret of Norfolk
> /
> Elizabeth de Segrave=John de Mowbray
> /

Renia

unread,
Dec 27, 2001, 9:16:35 PM12/27/01
to
Malinda, I have:

Descendants of Thomas Yorks

1 Thomas YORKS
.. + Mary SUTTON
..... 2 Mary YORKS
......... + Thomas RANDES
............ 3 Mary RANDE Of: co Lincoln Will dated: 26/2/1629-30 Will
proved: 13/10/1630 York
................ + George MERYTON Of Castle Leventon, Yorks m: Abt. 1602 d:
Abt. 1624 Will dd: 1/7/1624 Will pr: 22/3/1624-25 York

Happy New Year, cousin!

Renia

Nathaniel Taylor

unread,
Dec 27, 2001, 11:12:01 PM12/27/01
to
In article <cvbn2u8itlkbnble9...@4ax.com>,
jmel...@pobox.com wrote:

>On 27 Dec 2001 22:18:00 GMT, mwelc...@aol.com (MWelch8442) wrote:
>
>>...here is at least one line for Gov Dudley
>
>... omitted
>
>>Cecily Grey=John Dudley [Baron Dudley]


>>/
>>Capt Henry Dudley= N.N. Ashton
>>/
>>Capt Roger Dudley=Susanna Thorne
>>/
>>Gov Thomas Dudley=Dorothy Yorke
>

>Has the father of Roger Dudley been found? The last time I looked
>through the literature, several attempts had been made to link Roger
>with the baronial house of Dudley, but all were unproved hypotheses.

The line as given is a provisional one, based on as-yet-unpublished
research but also outlined in a few recent publications (including the
most recent edition of _Ancestors of American Presidents_ and Faris'
_Plantagenet Ancestry_), but without lengthy discussion. While it remains
an 'unproved hypothesis', in the form I saw it presented (a privately
circulated MS) it was supported by good research into the baronial Dudley
family, a dispassionate evaluation of the currently known evidence for a
connection between Gov. Dudley and the baronial Dudleys, and a thorough
review and discussion of the six or seven other theories that have been
advanced in print to date. There's an interesting circumstantial case for
it, but I'm not sure on that basis it should be appearing without comment
in compilations like _Plantagenet Ancestry_, or posted lines like this.
But I assume, from Mr. Richardson's inclusion of Dudley in his list of
Arundel descendants, that he had something behind Cecily Grey in mind.

Nat Taylor

MWelch8442

unread,
Dec 29, 2001, 2:17:40 PM12/29/01
to
Here is a line from Alice to Joseph Bolles

Alice de Arundel=Stephen de Segrave
/
John de Segrave=Margaret of Norfolk
/
Elizabeth de Segrave=John de Mowbray
/
Alianor de Mowbray=John de Welles
/
Eudes de Welles=Maud de Greystoke
/
Lionel de Welles=Joan de Waterton
/
Margaret de Welles=Thomas de Dymoke
/
Lionel Dymoke=Joan Griffith
/
Anne Dymoke=John Goodrick
/
Lionel Goodrick=Winifred Sapcott
/
Anne Goodrick=Benjamin Bolles
/
Thomas Bolles=Elizabeth Perkins
/
Joseph Bolles=Mary Howell

Greystoke

unread,
Jan 2, 2002, 7:57:51 PM1/2/02
to
Alice de Arundel to Anne Mansfield Keayne of Massachusetts Bay;
additions and corrections invited.

1) Alice de Arundel = Stephen de Segrave
2) John de Segrave = Margaret of Norfolk
3) Elizabeth de Segrave = John de Mowbray
4) Alianor de Mowbray = John de Welles
5) Eudes de Welles = Maud de Greystoke
6) Lionel de Welles = Joan de Waterton

7) Cecily Welles = Robert Willoughby
8) Christopher Willoughby = Margaret Jenney
9) Elizabeth Willoughby = William Eure
10) Ralph Eure = Margery Bowes
11) Anne Eure = Lancelot Mansfield
12) John Mansfield = Elizabeth [Batte?]
13) Anne Mansfield = Robert Keayne

With many thanks to Robert Charles Anderson, John C. Brandon, Paul C.
Reed, David Ferris, Walter Lee Sheppard Jr., William R. Beale and
Douglas Richardson for their researches and writings.

Paul C. Reed

unread,
Jan 3, 2002, 12:51:33 AM1/3/02
to
> 10) Ralph Eure = Margery Bowes
> 11) Anne Eure = Lancelot Mansfield
> 12) John Mansfield = Elizabeth [Batte?]
> 13) Anne Mansfield = Robert Keayne

I wanted to post the following, as it had not been included in the
Mansfield article published in NEHGR last year due to limitations
of space (I was actually quite pleased at how much material the
the editor actually allowed). It pertains to generations 10 and
11 (above):

Anne Eure was a child at the death of her father Sir Ralphe Eure,
who was slain by Scottish forces at the Battle of Ancram
Moore 6 Mar. 1544/5 (her eldest brother William was born
27 Feb. 1530/1). Anne's mother, Margery Bowes, was daughter
of Sir Ralph Bowes (d. Apr. 1516), of Streatlam, co Durham,
by his wife Elizabeth Clifford. Sir Ralph Eure predeceased
his father, Sir William Eure, 1st Lord Eure, who died 15 Mar.
1547/8.

Anne Eure's brother Ralph had married below his status, and
incurred family displeasure. As both her father and paternal
grandfather were dead when Anne was still under age, it is
not surprising that she too married below her status.

_Testamenta Eboracensia…_ v. 6 [Surtees Society, 106]
(1902), 185-7 [will of William, Lord Eure, 1549; he gave
his son Ralph's daughter Anne 100 marks towards her marriage,
indicating she was still single when he made his will 25 Feb.
1547/8]. _Wills and Inventories from the Registry at Durham,
Part II_ [Surtees Society, 38] (1860)149-51 [nuncupatuve
will of Ralph Eurey of Edgnole, w. d. 19 Feb. 1586/7, inv.
22 Apr. 1587; "I have no landes, but all my goodes, bothe
moveable and unmoveable, I give unto my wiffe…."; "The
testator had made an inferior, and probably irregular
marriage, and for this he appears to have incurred the
displeasure of his family; he resents their conduct on his
death bed, whilst he declares that he will give not one penny
of his goods to any but to his wife." Even so, his family
contested the nuncupative will.]. _Wills and Inventories
from the Registry at Durham, Part III_ [Surtees Society,
112] (1906), 155-7 [will of William, Lord Eure, 1592-9].
G. E. Cokayne [Vicary Gibbs, et al., ed.], _The Complete
Peerage…_ 5:179-80 [Eure]. Joseph Foster, _Visitations
of Yorkshire_, 205, 613. S. T. Bindoff, ed., _The History
of Parliament: The House of Commons, 1509-1558_
3 vols. (London, 1982), 2:109-10. P. W. Hasler, ed.,
_The History of Parliament: The House of Commons_,
3 vols. (London, 1981), 2:92-3. _A History of
Northumberland…_ [New History of Northumberland] 15
vols. [by the Northumberland County Historical Committee]
(Newcastle-upon-Tyne and London, 1893-1940), 12:494-7.
John Graves, _The History of Cleveland…_ (Carlisle, 1808),
234-6. Robert Surtees, _The History and Antiquities of the
County Palatine of Durham…_ 4 vols. (London, 1816-40), 4:4.

The above should help explain why a new man like Lancelot
Mansfield was able to marry into a family with well
established lineage and position in Yorkshire society.

Paul

MWelch8442

unread,
Jan 4, 2002, 7:55:03 PM1/4/02
to
Here is a line from Alice de Arundel to Diane and Grey Skipwith

Alice de Arundel=Stephen de Segrave
/
John de Segrave=Margaret of Norfolk
/
Elizabeth de Segrave=John de Mowbray
/
Alianor de Mowbray=John de Welles
/
Eudes de Welles=Maud de Greystoke
/
Lionel de Welles=Joan de Waterton
/
Margaret Welles=Thomas Dymoke

/
Lionel Dymoke=Joan Griffith
/
Alice Dymoke=William Skipwith
/
Henry Skipwih=Jane Hall
/
William Skipwith=Margaret Cave
/
Henry Skipwith=Amy Kempe
/
Grey Skipwith and Diane Skipwith

Greystoke

unread,
Jan 8, 2002, 12:08:38 AM1/8/02
to
Mr. Reed,
Many thanks for your posting. Your comments about the Eure marriages
help me to see them as real people grappling with one of many
challenges in life. Best wishes.

malinda

unread,
Jan 8, 2002, 1:11:15 AM1/8/02
to
My server evidently mis-placed some of my mail in a recent outage (last
night and this morning). Would it be possible for someone to send me a copy
of Paul's email regarding "Revised List of Descendants of Alice de Arundel,
wife of Stephen de Segrave" ?

Thank you ,
~malinda

----- Original Message -----
From: "Greystoke" <grey...@topeka.net>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 11:08 PM
Subject: Re: Revised List of Descendants of Alice de Arundel, wife of
Stephen de Segrave

The Thill Group Inc

unread,
Jan 8, 2002, 1:19:10 AM1/8/02
to
I was thinking the same thing I would like to see this also.

Thanking you in advance
Becky T.
ttg...@attbi.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "malinda" <mthi...@swbell.net>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 12:11 AM
Subject: Re: Revised List of Descendants of Alice de Arundel, wife of
Stephen de Segrave

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