Descents From Edward III for Elizabeth Cotes, Mrs Kendall (1739-1816)

[Brad Verity]

On Nov 11, 3:54 pm, John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> The paternal grandmother of Elizabeth Cotes was Dorothy Shirley,
> daughter of the 1st Earl Ferrers, and her paternal great-grandmother
> was Lettice Digby, daughter of the 2nd Baron Digby of Geashill.  I
> count 7 Edward III descents via the Digby connection and 20 via the
> Shirley connection.

As John Higgins noted several days ago, one of the ancestors of Justin
Welby, Archbishop-elect of Canterbury, is Elizabeth Cotes, wife of
Rev. Nicholas Kendall of Pelyn House, Lanlivery, Cornwall
(1741-1814). Elizabeth Cotes was born on 16 December 1739, and
baptized 13 January 1740 at St James Church, Westminster (IGI Batch
No.: C135503). She was buried on 29 June 1816 at St Brevita Church,
Lanlivery, Cornwall, and had married Nicholas Kendall on 7 October
1766 at St Mary Church, Byfleet, Surrey, in which town her father had
a residence outside of London. Byfleet & London are far from
Cornwall, and the circumstances which led Kendall to take a wife so
removed from his ancestral home do not survive.

An nice anecdote about Elizabeth Cotes Kendall, does, however,
survive. Cyrus Redding (1785-1870), journalist, wine historian, and
native of Cornwall, writing about 1815, says, "I spent two or three
days on my return with a family inhabiting a fine old place near
Lestwithiel, called Pelyn. The lady of the house was in her eighty-
sixth year [sic], lively, good-looking, full of information about old
times, and in full possession of her intellects. She was the daughter
of Humphrey Cotes, the friend of Wilkes, Beckford, Churchill, and
Hogarth...She spoke much of Charles Churchill, who used to be
frequently with her father...Wilkes, she told me, generally came to
her father's with Churchill...I found that Mrs. Kendal, for that was
Miss Cotes' name by marriage, did not think much of her father's
friend as a gentleman...I told her I had read of her father in Wilkes'
correspondence. She mentioned that her father lived in St. Martin's
Lane, when Wilkes made a noise all over the country, and observed that
she had forgotten many things about her earlier days, because, after
her marriage and retiring into Cornwall, she met with few who knew or
could talk about the characters that in London were once of so much
interest":
http://books.google.ca/books?id=-60UAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA251&dq=Humphrey+Cotes+of+St+Martins+Lane&hl=en&sa=X&ei=x9SrUJCDG8nOigLd7YDIBQ&sqi=2&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=Humphrey%20Cotes%20of%20St%20Martins%20Lane&f=false

Of Elizabeth Cotes's mother, Elizabeth Rush, I haven't found anything
except that she was from the London parish of St Giles in the Fields
when she married Humphrey Cotes at Lincoln's Inn Chapel on 9 December
1736 (p. 605, snippet view):
http://books.google.ca/books?id=Cio1AQAAMAAJ&q=Elizabeth+Rush+married+Humphry+Cotes&dq=Elizabeth+Rush+married+Humphry+Cotes&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-NurUMa0B5HviQL2xYGgCQ&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAQ
Her ancestry is uncharted.

I have 21 lines of descent from Edward III for Elizabeth Cotes
Kendall, all through her father. Humphrey Cotes was baptized 27
December 1717, the youngest son of a Shropshire gentryman and M.P.
Though married at the chapel at Lincoln's Inn, Humphrey doesn't appear
to have been admitted there. He pursued a career in trade, rather
than law, and became a wine merchant on St Martin's Lane in London.
His later years were not happy, he became bankrupt in 1767, and made
an unsuccessful bid to be elected M.P. for Westminster in 1772. His
first wife died 19 Jan. 1766 ('Public Advertiser', 21 Jan., 1766), and
on 28 Nov. 1772, he married secondly, the widow of Savage Barrell -
great name! - of Vauxhall. "Savage Barrell died 28 July, 1772 (Gent.
Mag., xlii. 391), and on 28 Nov. of the same year his widow became the
second wife of Humphrey Cotes (Public Advertiser, 1 Dec, 1772). She
survived her second husband, who died 1 May, 1775":
http://books.google.ca/books?id=vFerojO9bhkC&q=Humphrey+Cotes+died+May+1775&dq=Humphrey+Cotes+died+May+1775&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DNSrUKSiKuG0iQLU9IBI&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAg

Edward III had 4 sons, A1, Q1, S1 & T1 (see below)
A1) John of Gaunt, 1st Duke of Lancaster (1340-1399) had 2 daus, A2 &
L2, and a son, N2 (see below)
A2) Joan Beaufort (c.1377-1440) had a son B3, and 3 daus F3, H3 & K3
(see below)
A3) Richard Neville, Earl of Salisbury (c.1398-1460) m. Alice Montagu
(1406-1462, descended from Edward I), and had 2 daus A4 & B4, and a
son E4 (see below)
A4) Alice Neville (c.1434-aft.1503) m. Henry Fitzhugh, 6th Lord
Fitzhugh (1429-1472), and had
A5) Elizabeth Fitzhugh (1462-bef.1407) m. 2) Nicholas, 1st Baron Vaux
of Harrowden (c.1460-1523), and had
A6) Katherine Vaux (b. c.1490) m. Sir George Throckmorton of Coughton
(by1489-1552), and had
A7) Anne Throckmorton m. John Digby of Coleshill Hall (d. 1558), and
had
A8) Sir George Digby of Coleshill Hall (1550-1587) m. Abigail
Heveningham (d. 1611, descended from Edward I), and had
A9) Sir Robert Digby of Coleshill Hall (1575-1618) m. Lettice
Fitzgerald, Baroness Offaly (see B9 below), and had
A10) Robert Digby, 1st Baron Digby of Geashill (c.1599-1642) m. 1)
Lady Sarah Boyle (see K11 below), and had
A11) Kildare Digby, 2nd Baron Digby of Geashill (c.1627-1661) m. Mary
Gardiner (c.1627-1692), and had
A12) Hon. Lettice Digby (1660-1695) m. Charles Cotes of Woodcote Hall
(c.1655-1706), and had
A13) John Cotes of Woodcote Hall (1682-1756) m. Lady Dorothy Shirley
(see C13 below), and had
A14) Humphrey Cotes of Byfleet (1717-1775) m. 1) Elizabeth Rush (d.
1766), and had
A15) Elizabeth Cotes (1739-1816) m. Rev. Nicholas Kendall of Pelyn
House, ancestors of Justin Welby, archbishop-elect of Canterbury

B4) Katherine Neville (c.1442-1504) had a dau B5 & a son D5 (see
below)
B5) Cecily Bonville, by 1st husband (1460-1529) m. 1) Thomas Grey, 1st
Marquess of Dorset (c.1456-1501, descended from Edward I), and had 2
daus, B6 & C6 (see below)
B6) Lady Elizabeth Grey (b. c.1495) m. Gerald Fitzgerald, 9th Earl of
Kildare (1487-1534, descended from Edward I), and had
B7) Gerald Fitzgerald, 11th Earl of Kildare (1525-1585) m. Mabel
Browne (see E7 below), and had
B8) Gerald Fitzgerald, Lord Offaly (1559-1580) m. Katherine Knollys
(see N8 below), and had
B9) Lettice Fitzgerald, Baroness Offaly (c.1580-1658) m. Sir Robert
Digby of Coleshill Hall (see A9 above)

C6) Lady Mary Grey (c.1492-1538) m. Walter Devereux, 1st Viscount
Hereford (see R6 below), and had
C7) Sir Richard Devereux of Lamphey (by1513-1547) m. Lady Dorothy
Hastings (see D7 below), and had
C8) Walter Devereux, 1st Earl of Essex (1539-1576) m. Lettice Knollys
(see O8 below), and had
C9) Robert Devereux, 2nd Earl of Essex (1565-1601) m. Frances
Walsingham (1567-1632, descended from Edward I), and had
C10) Lady Dorothy Devereux (1600-1636) m. 1) Sir Henry Shirley, 2nd
Baronet of Staunton Harold (see G11 below), and had
C11) Sir Robert Shirley, 4th Baronet of Staunton Harold (1629-1656) m.
Katherine Okeover (1627-1672), and had
C12) Robert Shirley, 1st Earl Ferrers (1650-1717) m. 1) Elizabeth
Washington (see J12 below), and had
C13) Lady Dorothy Shirley (1683-1721) m. John Cotes of Woodcote Hall
(see A13 above)

D5) Edward, 2nd Lord Hastings, by 2nd husband (1466-1506) m. Mary
Hungerford (see H5 below), and had
D6) George Hastings, 1st Earl of Huntingdon (1487-1544) m. Lady Anne
Stafford (see F6 below), and had
D7) Lady Dorothy Hastings (c.1520-1566) m. Sir Richard Devereux of
Lamphey (see C7 above)

E4) John Neville, Marquess Montagu (c.1431-1471) m. Isabel
Ingaldesthorpe (1441-1476, descended from Edward I), and had
E5) Lady Lucy Neville (1468-1534) m. 2) Sir Anthony Browne of Calais
(1443-1506, descended from Edward I), and had
E6) Sir Anthony Browne of Cowdray Park (c.1500-1548) m. 1) Alice Gage
(d. 1540), and had
E7) Mabel Browne (c.1536-1610) m. Gerald Fitzgerald, 11th Earl of
Kildare (see B7 above)

F3) Anne Neville (c.1408-1480) m. 1) Humphrey Stafford, 1st Duke of
Buckingham (see Q3 below), and had
F4) Humphrey Stafford, Earl of Stafford (c.1425-1458) m. Lady Margaret
Beaufort (see M4 below), and had
F5) Henry Stafford, 2nd Duke of Buckingham (1455-1483) m. Katherine
Woodville (c.1458-1497), and had a dau F6 & a son G6 (see below)
F6) Lady Anne Stafford (c.1483-1544) m. 2) George Hastings, 1st Earl
of Huntingdon (see D6 above)

G6) Edward Stafford, 3rd Duke of Buckingham (1478-1521) m. Eleanor
Percy (see I6 below), and had
G7) Lady Elizabeth Stafford (1497-1558) m. Thomas Howard, 3rd Duke of
Norfolk (1473-1554, descended from Edward I), and had
G8) Henry Howard, Earl of Surrey (1516-1547) m. Lady Frances Vere
(1517-1577, descended from Edward I), and had
G9) Lady Katherine Howard (1539-1596) m. Henry, 7th Lord Berkeley
(1534-1613, descended from Edward I), and had
G10) Frances Berkeley (1564-1595) m. Sir George Shirley, 1st Baronet
of Staunton Harold (1559-1622), and had
G11) Sir Henry Shirley, 2nd Baronet of Staunton Harold (1589-1633) m.
Lady Dorothy Devereux (see C10 above)

H3) Eleanor Neville (1403-1472) m. 2) Henry Percy, 2nd Earl of
Northumberland (see U4 below), and had a son I4 & 2 daus H4 & K4 (see
below)
H4) Anne Percy (1443-1522) m. 1) Sir Thomas Hungerford of Rowden (c.
1442-1469), and had
H5) Mary, Lady Hungerford (1468-1533) m. 1) Edward, 2nd Lord Hastings
(see D5 above)

I4) Henry Percy, 3rd Earl of Northumberland (1421-1461) m. Eleanor
Poynings (1428-1484, descended from Edward I), and had
I5) Henry Percy, 4th Earl of Northumberland (c.1449-1489) m. Maud
Herbert (c.1457-by1487), and had
I6) Eleanor Percy (c.1476-1531) m. Edward Stafford, 3rd Duke of
Buckingham (see G6 above)

J4) Katherine Percy (1423-1493) m. Edmund Grey, 1st Earl of Kent (see
L4 below), and had
J5) Anne Grey (b. c.1448) m. John Grey, 8th Lord Grey of Wilton (see
P5 below), and had
J6) Tacy Grey (d. 1558)* m. John Guise of Elmore Court (c.1485-1556,
descended from Edward I), and had
J7) William Guise of Elmore Court (c.1514-1574) m. Mary Rotsey (d.
1558), and had
J8) John Guise of Elmore Court (c.1540-1588) m. Jane Pauncefoot (d.
1587), and had
J9) Sir William Guise of Elmore Court (1566-1642) m. 1) Margaret Kenn
(c.1575-1595), and had
J10) William Guise of Elmore Court (1595-1653) m. Cecily Dennys
(1597-1682, descended from Edward I**), and had
J11) Eleanor Guise (1624-1685) m. 1) Lawrence Washington of Garsdon
(1622-1662), and had
J12) Elizabeth Washington (1655-1693) m. Robert Shirley, 1st Earl
Ferrers (see C12 above)

K3) Elizabeth Ferrers (1393-1434) m. John, 4th Lord Greystoke (c.
1390-1436), and had
K4) Joan Greystoke (c.1409-aft.1472) m. 1) John Darcy of Temple Hurst
(1404-1458, descended from Edward I), and had
K5) Joan Darcy (b. c.1435) m. John Beaumont of Coleorton Hall
(1428-1461), and had
K6) George Beaumont of Quarter Marsh (c.1453-1530) m. Joan Pauncefoot,
and had
K7) William Beaumont of Coleorton Hall (d. 1529) m. Mary Basset (d.
1539), and had
K8) Cecily Beaumont m. Henry Fenton of Stretton-le-Steeple (descended
from Edward I), and had
K9) Sir Geoffrey Fenton (c.1539-1608) m. Alice Weston (b. c.1553), and
had
K10) Katherine Fenton (c.1588-1629) m. Richard Boyle, 1st Earl of Cork
(1566-1643), and had
K11) Lady Sarah Boyle (1609-1633) m. 2) Robert, 1st Baron Digby of
Geashill (see A10 above)

L2) Elizabeth of Lancaster (1364-1425) m. 2) John Holland, 1st Duke of
Exeter (c.1358-1400, descended from Edward I), and had
L3) Lady Constance Holland (1386-1437) m. 2) Sir John Grey of
Badmondisfield Hall (c.1385-1439, descended from Edward I), and had
L4) Edmund Grey, 1st Earl of Kent (1416-1490) m. Katherine Percy (see
J4 above)

M2) John Beaufort, 1st Earl of Somerset (1373-1410) m. Margaret
Holland (1383-1439, descended from Edward I), and had 2 sons M3 & P3
(see below)
M3) Edmund Beaufort, 2nd Duke of Somerset (1406-1455) m. Eleanor
Beauchamp (1408-1467, descended from Edward I), and had 2 daus M4 & N4
(see below)
M4) Lady Margaret Beaufort (c.1437-1480) m. 1) Humphrey Stafford, Earl
of Stafford (see F4 above)

N4) Lady Eleanor Beaufort (c.1440-1501) m. 2) Sir Robert Spencer of
Ashbury (c.1435-1510), and had
N5) Margaret Spencer (b. c.1472) m. Thomas Carey of Moulsford (b. c.
1460, descended from Edward I), and had
N6) William Carey of Aldenham (c.1496-1528) m. Lady Mary Boleyn (c.
1499-1543, descended from Edward I), and had
N7) Katherine Carey (c.1523-1569) m. Sir Francis Knollys of
Rotherfield Greys (c.1512-1596), and had 2 daus N8 & O8 (see below)
N8) Katherine Knollys (1559-1632) m. 1) Gerald Fitzgerald, Lord Offaly
(see B8 above)

O8) Lettice Knollys (1543-1634) m. 1) Walter Devereux, 1st Earl of
Essex (see C8 above)

P3) John Beaufort, 1st Duke of Somerset (1404-1444) = unidentified
mistress, and had
P4) Tacyn Beaufort, illegit. (c.1428-1494) m. Reginald Grey, 7th Lord
Grey of Wilton (1421-1494), and had
P5) John Grey, 8th Lord Grey of Wilton (c.1445-1499) m. Anne Grey (see
J5 above)

Q1) Thomas of Woodstock, 1st Duke of Gloucester (1355-1397) m. Eleanor
de Bohun (1366-1399, descended from Edward I), and had
Q2) Anne of Gloucester (1383-1438), who had 2 sons Q3 & R3 (see
below)
Q3) Humphrey Stafford, 1st Duke of Buckingham, by 2nd husband
(1402-1460) m. Anne Neville (see F3 above)

R3) Henry Bourchier, 1st Earl of Essex (1404-1483) m. Isabel of York
(see S3 below), and had
R4) William, Lord Bourchier (c.1428-1477) m. Anne Woodville (c.
1448-1489), and had
R5) Cecily Bourchier (c.1473-1493) m. John Devereux, 2nd Lord Ferrers
of Chartley (1464-1501), and had
R6) Walter Devereux, 1st Viscount Hereford (c.1491-1558) m. Lady Mary
Grey (see C6 above)

S1) Edmund of Langley, 1st Duke of York (1341-1402) m. 1) Isabel of
Castile (1355-1392), and had
S2) Richard of York, 3rd Earl of Cambridge (1385-1415) m. 1) Anne
Mortimer (see T4 below), and had
S3) Isabel of York (1409-1484) m. 2) Henry Bourchier, 1st Earl of
Essex (see R3 above)

T1) Lionel of Antwerp, Duke of Clarence (1338-1368) m. 1) Elizabeth de
Burgh (1332-1363, descended from Edward I), and had
T2) Philippa of Clarence (1355-1377) m. Edmund Mortmer, 3rd Earl of
March (1352-1381), and had a son T3 & a dau U3 (see below)
T3) Roger Mortimer, 4th Earl of March (1374-1398) m. Alianore Holland
(1370-1405, descended from Edward I), and had
T4) Anne Mortimer (1388-1411) m. Richard of York, 3rd Earl of
Cambridge (see S2 above)

U3) Elizabeth Mortimer (1371-1417) m. 1) Sir Henry 'Hotspur' Percy
(1364-1403), and had
U4) Henry Percy, 2nd Earl of Northumberland (1394-1455) m. Eleanor
Neville (see H3 above)


*Plantagenet Ancestry makes her the dau of the 9th Lord Grey of Wilton
& Florence Hastings, but chronologically, she would seem to work
better as dau of the 8th Lord Grey of Wilton

**I'm one of those who feel there is not enough evidence to support
Joan Stradling, the 1st wife of Maurice Dennys of Siston, being a
daughter of Jane Beaufort, daughter of Cardinal Henry Beaufort. But
for those who feel that connection is valid, then Cecily Dennys would
be a descendant of Edward III thru Cardinal Beaufort.

Cheers, -------Brad

[John Higgins]

On Nov 20, 2:07 pm, Brad Verity <royaldesc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 11, 3:54 pm, John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > The paternal grandmother of Elizabeth Cotes was Dorothy Shirley,
> > daughter of the 1st Earl Ferrers, and her paternal great-grandmother
> > was Lettice Digby, daughter of the 2nd Baron Digby of Geashill.  I
> > count 7 Edward III descents via the Digby connection and 20 via the
> > Shirley connection.
>

[Brad wrote:]

> I have 21 lines of descent from Edward III for Elizabeth Cotes
> Kendall, all through her father.

I think Brad's detailed list below actually provides 25 descents from
Edward III, not 21 as he indicates above - probably due to
intermarriages. I've listed my counts of the descents in each step
below (and corrected a few small typos in Brad's identifying numbers).

I see now that my previous count of 27 Edward III descents for
Elizabeth Cotes erroneously included two descents for Alice Weston
(see K9 below) which depended on a Neville connection (and thence to
Edward III) which has now been discredited, as it is at best
unsupported and almost certainly was based on a forged pedigree. See
the discussion of Alice Weston's grandparents John Weston of Lichfield
and his wife Cecily (said to be a Neville, sister of the 4th Earl of
Westmorland) in this group in November 2011.

Edward III had 4 sons, A1, Q1, S1 & T1 (see below)

A1) [1 line] John of Gaunt, 1st Duke of Lancaster (1340-1399) had 2
daus, A2 &
L2, and a son, M2 (see below)
A2) [1 line] Joan Beaufort (c.1377-1440) had a son A3, and 3 daus F3,

H3 & K3
(see below)

A3) [1 line] Richard Neville, Earl of Salisbury (c.1398-1460) m. Alice

Montagu
(1406-1462, descended from Edward I), and had 2 daus A4 & B4, and a
son E4 (see below)

A4) [1 line] Alice Neville (c.1434-aft.1503) m. Henry Fitzhugh, 6th

Lord
Fitzhugh (1429-1472), and had

A5) [1 line] Elizabeth Fitzhugh (1462-bef.1407) m. 2) Nicholas, 1st

Baron Vaux
of Harrowden (c.1460-1523), and had

A6) [1 line] Katherine Vaux (b. c.1490) m. Sir George Throckmorton of
Coughton
by1489-1552), and had
A7) [1 line] Anne Throckmorton m. John Digby of Coleshill Hall (d.
1558), and
had
A8) [1 line] Sir George Digby of Coleshill Hall (1550-1587) m. Abigail

Heveningham (d. 1611, descended from Edward I), and had

A9) [1 line] Sir Robert Digby of Coleshill Hall (1575-1618) m. Lettice
> Fitzgerald, Baroness Offaly (see B9 below) [3 lines], and had
A10) [4 lines] Robert Digby, 1st Baron Digby of Geashill (c.1599-1642)
m. 1)
Lady Sarah Boyle (see K11 below) [1 line], and had
A11) [5 lines] Kildare Digby, 2nd Baron Digby of Geashill (c.

1627-1661) m. Mary
Gardiner (c.1627-1692), and had

A12) [5 lines] Hon. Lettice Digby (1660-1695) m. Charles Cotes of

Woodcote Hall
(c.1655-1706), and had

A13) [5 lines] John Cotes of Woodcote Hall (1682-1756) m. Lady Dorothy
Shirley
(see C13 below) [20 lines], and had
A14) [25 lines] Humphrey Cotes of Byfleet (1717-1775) m. 1) Elizabeth

Rush (d.
1766), and had

A15) [25 lines] Elizabeth Cotes (1739-1816) m. Rev. Nicholas Kendall

of Pelyn
House, ancestors of Justin Welby, archbishop-elect of Canterbury

B4) [1 line] Katherine Neville (c.1442-1504) had a dau B5 & a son D5
(see
below)
B5) [1 line] Cecily Bonville, by 1st husband (1460-1529) m. 1) Thomas

Grey, 1st
Marquess of Dorset (c.1456-1501, descended from Edward I), and had 2
daus, B6 & C6 (see below)

B6) [1 line] Lady Elizabeth Grey (b. c.1495) m. Gerald Fitzgerald, 9th

Earl of
Kildare (1487-1534, descended from Edward I), and had

B7) [1 line] Gerald Fitzgerald, 11th Earl of Kildare (1525-1585) m.
Mabel
Browne (see E7 below) [1 line], and had
B8) [2 lines] Gerald Fitzgerald, Lord Offaly (1559-1580) m. Katherine
Knollys
(see N8 below) [1 line], and had
B9) [3 lines] Lettice Fitzgerald, Baroness Offaly (c.1580-1658) m. Sir

Robert
Digby of Coleshill Hall (see A9 above)

C6) [1 line] Lady Mary Grey (c.1492-1538) m. Walter Devereux, 1st
Viscount
Hereford (see R6 below) [3 lines], and had
C7) [4 lines] Sir Richard Devereux of Lamphey (by1513-1547) m. Lady
Dorothy
Hastings (see D7 below) [6 lines], and had
C8) [10 lines] Walter Devereux, 1st Earl of Essex (1539-1576) m.
Lettice Knollys
(see O8 below) [1 line], and had
C9) [11 lines] Robert Devereux, 2nd Earl of Essex (1565-1601) m.

Frances
Walsingham (1567-1632, descended from Edward I), and had

C10) [11 lines] Lady Dorothy Devereux (1600-1636) m. 1) Sir Henry
Shirley, 2nd
Baronet of Staunton Harold (see G11 below) [5 lines], and had
C11) [16 lines] Sir Robert Shirley, 4th Baronet of Staunton Harold

(1629-1656) m. Katherine Okeover (1627-1672), and had

C12) [16 lines] Robert Shirley, 1st Earl Ferrers (1650-1717) m. 1)
Elizabeth
Washington (see J12 below) [4 lines], and had
C13) [20 lines] Lady Dorothy Shirley (1683-1721) m. John Cotes of

Woodcote Hall
(see A13 above)

D5) [1 line] Edward, 2nd Lord Hastings, by 2nd husband (1466-1506) m.
Mary
Hungerford (see H5 below) [2 lines], and had
D6) [3 lines] George Hastings, 1st Earl of Huntingdon (1487-1544) m.
Lady Anne
Stafford (see F6 below) [3 lines], and had
D7) [6 lines] Lady Dorothy Hastings (c.1520-1566) m. Sir Richard

Devereux of
Lamphey (see C7 above)

E4) [1 line] John Neville, Marquess Montagu (c.1431-1471) m. Isabel

Ingaldesthorpe (1441-1476, descended from Edward I), and had

E5) [1 line] Lady Lucy Neville (1468-1534) m. 2) Sir Anthony Browne of

Calais
(1443-1506, descended from Edward I), and had

E6) [1 line] Sir Anthony Browne of Cowdray Park (c.1500-1548) m. 1)

Alice Gage
(d. 1540), and had

E7) [1 line] Mabel Browne (c.1536-1610) m. Gerald Fitzgerald, 11th

Earl of
Kildare (see B7 above)

F3) [1 line] Anne Neville (c.1408-1480) m. 1) Humphrey Stafford, 1st
Duke of
Buckingham (see Q3 below) [1 line], and had
F4) [2 lines] Humphrey Stafford, Earl of Stafford (c.1425-1458) m.
Lady Margaret
Beaufort (see M4 below) [1 line], and had
F5) [3 lines] Henry Stafford, 2nd Duke of Buckingham (1455-1483) m.

Katherine
Woodville (c.1458-1497), and had a dau F6 & a son G6 (see below)

F6) [3 lines] Lady Anne Stafford (c.1483-1544) m. 2) George Hastings,

1st Earl
of Huntingdon (see D6 above)

G6) [3 lines] Edward Stafford, 3rd Duke of Buckingham (1478-1521) m.
Eleanor
Percy (see I6 below) [2 line], and had
G7) [5 lines] Lady Elizabeth Stafford (1497-1558) m. Thomas Howard,

3rd Duke of
Norfolk (1473-1554, descended from Edward I), and had

G8) [5 lines] Henry Howard, Earl of Surrey (1516-1547) m. Lady Frances

Vere
(1517-1577, descended from Edward I), and had

G9) [5 lines] Lady Katherine Howard (1539-1596) m. Henry, 7th Lord

Berkeley
(1534-1613, descended from Edward I), and had

G10) 5 lines] Frances Berkeley (1564-1595) m. Sir George Shirley, 1st

Baronet
of Staunton Harold (1559-1622), and had

G11) [5 lines] Sir Henry Shirley, 2nd Baronet of Staunton Harold

(1589-1633) m.
Lady Dorothy Devereux (see C10 above)

H3) [1 line] Eleanor Neville (1403-1472) m. 2) Henry Percy, 2nd Earl
of
Northumberland (see U4 below) [1 line], and had a son I4 & 2 daus H4 &
J4 (see
below)
H4) [2 lines] Anne Percy (1443-1522) m. 1) Sir Thomas Hungerford of

Rowden (c.
1442-1469), and had

H5) 2 lines] Mary, Lady Hungerford (1468-1533) m. 1) Edward, 2nd Lord
Hastings
(see D5 above)

I4) [2 lines] Henry Percy, 3rd Earl of Northumberland (1421-1461) m.

Eleanor
Poynings (1428-1484, descended from Edward I), and had

I5) [2 lines] Henry Percy, 4th Earl of Northumberland (c.1449-1489) m.

Maud
Herbert (c.1457-by1487), and had

I6) [2 lines] Eleanor Percy (c.1476-1531) m. Edward Stafford, 3rd Duke

of
Buckingham (see G6 above)

J4) [2 lines] Katherine Percy (1423-1493) m. Edmund Grey, 1st Earl of
Kent (see
L4 below) [1 line], and had
J5) [3 lines] Anne Grey (b. c.1448) m. John Grey, 8th Lord Grey of
Wilton (see
P5 below) [1 line], and had
J6) [4 lines] Tacy Grey (d. 1558)* m. John Guise of Elmore Court (c.

1485-1556,
descended from Edward I), and had

J7) [4 lines] William Guise of Elmore Court (c.1514-1574) m. Mary

Rotsey (d.
1558), and had

J8) [4 lines] John Guise of Elmore Court (c.1540-1588) m. Jane

Pauncefoot (d.
1587), and had

J9) [4 lines] Sir William Guise of Elmore Court (1566-1642) m. 1)

Margaret Kenn
(c.1575-1595), and had

J10) [4 lines] William Guise of Elmore Court (1595-1653) m. Cecily

Dennys
(1597-1682, descended from Edward I**), and had

J11) [4 lines] Eleanor Guise (1624-1685) m. 1) Lawrence Washington of
Garsdon
(1622-1662), and had
J12) [4 lines] Elizabeth Washington (1655-1693) m. Robert Shirley, 1st

Earl
Ferrers (see C12 above)

K3) [1 line] Elizabeth Ferrers (1393-1434) m. John, 4th Lord Greystoke
(c.
1390-1436), and had
K4) [1 line] Joan Greystoke (c.1409-aft.1472) m. 1) John Darcy of

Temple Hurst
(1404-1458, descended from Edward I), and had

K5) [1 line] Joan Darcy (b. c.1435) m. John Beaumont of Coleorton Hall
(1428-1461), and had
K6) [1 line] George Beaumont of Quarter Marsh (c.1453-1530) m. Joan
Pauncefoot,
and had
K7) [1 line] William Beaumont of Coleorton Hall (d. 1529) m. Mary

Basset (d.
1539), and had

K8) [1 line] Cecily Beaumont m. Henry Fenton of Stretton-le-Steeple

(descended
from Edward I), and had

K9) [1 line] Sir Geoffrey Fenton (c.1539-1608) m. Alice Weston (b. c.
1553), and
had
K10) [1 line] Katherine Fenton (c.1588-1629) m. Richard Boyle, 1st

Earl of Cork
(1566-1643), and had

K11) [1 line] Lady Sarah Boyle (1609-1633) m. 2) Robert, 1st Baron

Digby of
Geashill (see A10 above)

L2) [1 line] Elizabeth of Lancaster (1364-1425) m. 2) John Holland,

1st Duke of
Exeter (c.1358-1400, descended from Edward I), and had

L3) [1line] Lady Constance Holland (1386-1437) m. 2) Sir John Grey of

Badmondisfield Hall (c.1385-1439, descended from Edward I), and had

L4) [1 line] Edmund Grey, 1st Earl of Kent (1416-1490) m. Katherine
Percy (see
J4 above)

M2) [1 line] John Beaufort, 1st Earl of Somerset (1373-1410) m.

Margaret
Holland (1383-1439, descended from Edward I), and had 2 sons M3 & P3
(see below)

M3) [1 line] Edmund Beaufort, 2nd Duke of Somerset (1406-1455) m.

Eleanor
Beauchamp (1408-1467, descended from Edward I), and had 2 daus M4 & N4
(see below)

M4) [1 line] Lady Margaret Beaufort (c.1437-1480) m. 1) Humphrey

Stafford, Earl
of Stafford (see F4 above)

N4) [1 line] Lady Eleanor Beaufort (c.1440-1501) m. 2) Sir Robert

Spencer of
Ashbury (c.1435-1510), and had
N5) Margaret Spencer (b. c.1472) m. Thomas Carey of Moulsford (b. c.
1460, descended from Edward I), and had

N6) [1 line] William Carey of Aldenham (c.1496-1528) m. Lady Mary

Boleyn (c.
1499-1543, descended from Edward I), and had

N7) [1 line] Katherine Carey (c.1523-1569) m. Sir Francis Knollys of

Rotherfield Greys (c.1512-1596), and had 2 daus N8 & O8 (see below)

N8) [1 line] Katherine Knollys (1559-1632) m. 1) Gerald Fitzgerald,

Lord Offaly
(see B8 above)

O8) [1 line] Lettice Knollys (1543-1634) m. 1) Walter Devereux, 1st

Earl of
Essex (see C8 above)

P3) [1 line] John Beaufort, 1st Duke of Somerset (1404-1444) =
unidentified
mistress, and had
P4) [1 line] Tacyn Beaufort, illegit. (c.1428-1494) m. Reginald Grey,

7th Lord
Grey of Wilton (1421-1494), and had

P5) [1 line] John Grey, 8th Lord Grey of Wilton (c.1445-1499) m. Anne
Grey (see
J5 above)

Q1) [1 line] Thomas of Woodstock, 1st Duke of Gloucester (1355-1397)

m. Eleanor
de Bohun (1366-1399, descended from Edward I), and had

Q2) [1 line] Anne of Gloucester (1383-1438), who had 2 sons Q3 & R3
(see
below)
Q3) [1 line] Humphrey Stafford, 1st Duke of Buckingham, by 2nd husband

(1402-1460) m. Anne Neville (see F3 above)

R3) [1 line] Henry Bourchier, 1st Earl of Essex (1404-1483) m. Isabel
of York
(see S3 below) [2 lines], and had
R4) [3 lines] William, Lord Bourchier (c.1428-1477) m. Anne Woodville
(c.
1448-1489), and had
R5) [3 lines] Cecily Bourchier (c.1473-1493) m. John Devereux, 2nd

Lord Ferrers
of Chartley (1464-1501), and had

R6) [3 lines] Walter Devereux, 1st Viscount Hereford (c.1491-1558) m.

Lady Mary
Grey (see C6 above)

S1) [1 line] Edmund of Langley, 1st Duke of York (1341-1402) m. 1)

Isabel of
Castile (1355-1392), and had

S2) [1 line] Richard of York, 3rd Earl of Cambridge (1385-1415) m. 1)
Anne
Mortimer (see T4 below) [1 line], and had
S3) [2 lines] Isabel of York (1409-1484) m. 2) Henry Bourchier, 1st

Earl of
Essex (see R3 above)

T1) [1 line] Lionel of Antwerp, Duke of Clarence (1338-1368) m. 1)

Elizabeth de
Burgh (1332-1363, descended from Edward I), and had

T2) [1 line] Philippa of Clarence (1355-1377) m. Edmund Mortmer, 3rd

Earl of
March (1352-1381), and had a son T3 & a dau U3 (see below)

T3) [1 line] Roger Mortimer, 4th Earl of March (1374-1398) m. Alianore

Holland
(1370-1405, descended from Edward I), and had

T4) [1 line] Anne Mortimer (1388-1411) m. Richard of York, 3rd Earl of
Cambridge (see S2 above)

U3) [1 line] Elizabeth Mortimer (1371-1417) m. 1) Sir Henry 'Hotspur'
Percy
(1364-1403), and had
U4) [1 line] Henry Percy, 2nd Earl of Northumberland (1394-1455) m.

[John Higgins]

On Nov 20, 2:07 pm, Brad Verity <royaldesc...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> J4) Katherine Percy (1423-1493) m. Edmund Grey, 1st Earl of Kent (see
> L4 below), and had
> J5) Anne Grey (b. c.1448) m. John Grey, 8th Lord Grey of Wilton (see
> P5 below), and had
> J6) Tacy Grey (d. 1558)* m. John Guise of Elmore Court (c.1485-1556,
> descended from Edward I), and had
> J7) William Guise of Elmore Court (c.1514-1574) m. Mary Rotsey (d.
> 1558), and had
> J8) John Guise of Elmore Court (c.1540-1588) m. Jane Pauncefoot (d.
> 1587), and had
> J9) Sir William Guise of Elmore Court (1566-1642) m. 1) Margaret Kenn
> (c.1575-1595), and had
> J10) William Guise of Elmore Court (1595-1653) m. Cecily Dennys
> (1597-1682, descended from Edward I**), and had
> J11) Eleanor Guise (1624-1685) m. 1) Lawrence Washington of Garsdon
> (1622-1662), and had
> J12) Elizabeth Washington (1655-1693) m. Robert Shirley, 1st Earl
> Ferrers (see C12 above)

> *Plantagenet Ancestry makes her the dau of the 9th Lord Grey of Wilton
> & Florence Hastings, but chronologically, she would seem to work
> better as dau of the 8th Lord Grey of Wilton
>

.
>
> Cheers,                                       -------Brad

I think the jury is still out (and is likely to remain so) on whether
Tacy Grey (J6 above) was the daughter of John, 8th Lord Grey of
Wilton, or his son Edmund, 9th Lord Grey of Wilton. Brad is correct
that the 2004 edition of DR's PA3 says that she was "evidently" the
daughter of Edmund the 9th Lord and his wife Florence Hastings. This
was clearly carried over from the Faris editions of PA1 and PA2, which
in turn were said to based on a conclusion of Frederick Lewis Weis in
AR7 and a 1956 NEHGR article. Weis, however, did not exactly say
this, saying that Tacy was likely a (possibly illegitimate) daughter
of Edmund, but not by his wife Florence Hastings, and that the
chronology favored her as a granddaughter, not daughter, of John Grey
of Wilton.

In a post of April 2008, DR informed us that he had changed his mind
with respect to the parentage of Tacy Grey and now felt she was the
sister rather than daughter of Edmund the 9th Lord. The 2011 edition
of PA3 reflects this, saying she was "evidently" daughter of John the
8th Lord Grey and his wife Anne Grey of Ruthin. I felt at the time
(and still do) that his conclusion was not well-supported and ignored
Weis' judgments on the matter. here is my comment from 2008:

"The only "new evidence" presented in this post seems to be the fact
that Tacy is not mentioned in the wills of either Edmund Grey, 9th
Lord Grey of Wilton, or his wife Florence Hastings. Weis suggested
that Tacy was perhaps the daughter of Edmund by a mistress, which
would explain her absence in both wills, especially that of Florence
Hastings. In addition, Weis proposes that the chronology suggests
that John Grey, Edmund's father, was Tacy's grandfather rather than
her father. I think there is insufficient evidence for a firm
conclusion here, but I lean toward Weis' opinion."

Having said this, I'd be interested in hearing the chronological
argument for Tacy as a daughter of John rather than Edmund.

[Brad Verity]

On Nov 20, 5:43 pm, John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Having said this, I'd be interested in hearing the chronological
> argument for Tacy as a daughter of John rather than Edmund.

I need to start off by saying I haven't looked at the Grey of Wilton
family in detail yet (I haven't perused their entries in CP, for
example, or looked at the wills of the various family members), and
the family is only skeletal and incomplete in my database.

I have William, 13th Baron Grey of Wilton, the 4th son of Edmund the
9th Lord & Florence Hastings, born in 1508, per his bio in ODNB. His
son & heir Arthur the 14th Baron I have as born in 1536. The only
other child I have so far in my database for the 9th Lord & Florence
is their daughter Elizabeth, wife of the 1st Baron Chandos. I don't
have a birthdate for her, but her husband was born in 1492 and their
eldest son the 2nd Baron Chandos was born by 1520, per his bio in HOP,
which arrived at that date from his age in his father's IPM. So an
estimate of about 1500 for Elizabeth's birth, assuming an age of 20
for her at the birth of her first son, wouldn't be too far off the
mark.

Tacy Grey bore her son and heir Anselm Guise in about 1510, per his
age in his father's IPM, and her husband John Guise was born about
1485, per his age in his own father's IPM. If we estimate Tacy was
about age 20 when her first son was born, she was born about 1490, a
good 10 years before her sister Elizabeth, and some 18 years before
her (admittedly youngest) brother William. Edmund the 9th Lord was
born by 1468, so he would have been about age 22 in 1490, and Tacy
would likely have been his eldest child. I don't yet have any context
to estimate a birthdate for Florence Hastings, but it seemed this was
pushing it.

As Tacy wasn't the heiress to the barony, there was no need to quickly
marry her off. All due respect to the Guises, but they were hardly a
brilliant match for a baron's eldest daughter. If Tacy was one
generation back, however, the daughter of John the 8th Lord & Anne
Grey, then she can be closer to her husband in age, born about
1485-88, the youngest child of her parents, born as they were
approaching their 40s, and named for her paternal grandmother (as
opposed to great-grandmother). The 8th Lord & Anne Grey had a
daughter, Katherine Grey, wife of Thomas Rotherham, named for her
maternal grandmother, Katherine Percy, Countess of Kent:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.genealogy.medieval/msg/e6dc14d1a52462d2?hl=en

The following post quotes the Tudor Place website estimates of "about
1475" as a birthdate for Katherine, and "about 1501" for her marriage
to Thomas Rotherham:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.genealogy.medieval/msg/be1b1538cb31c637?hl=en

Tudor Place gives John the 8th Baron & Anne Grey a large family of 8
sons & 2 daus. I don't know what the source is for that, but it
seemed there was a little more breathing room by adding Tacy Grey
Guise as the youngest child of that family group rather than trying to
squeeze her in as the eldest child of Edmund the 9th Baron & Florence
Hastings.

Cheers, ------Brad

[Wjhonson]

The year of birth for Arthur Grey comes from his M.I. which is or was at Whaddon where he had died and also is buried. He died 14 Oct 1593 and is called 'aged 57"

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[Wjhonson]

Tudor Place is a website completely choke full of utter nonsense and ridiculous garbage

-----Original Message-----
From: Brad Verity <royald...@hotmail.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tue, Nov 20, 2012 11:55 pm
Subject: Re: Descents From Edward III for Elizabeth Cotes, Mrs Kendall (1739-1816)