Mucking around in old Leon (sons of Vermudo II)
sk...@ix.netcom.com
Rodriguez (soc.genealogy.medieval, 21 April 1998), that Munio
Rodriguez' first wife was "Jimena Ordoñez, grandaughter of Vermudo
II." TAF does not name the intermediate parents, but on nomenclature
grounds the "grand-daughter of Vermudo II" whom he does name, viz.,
Jimena Ordoñez, should have a father named Ordoño who should be a son
of Vermudo II. There remains the question, which of Vermudo's wives
was Ordoño's mother? (We know that Vermudo had another grandaughter
named Jimena, but her father's name was Diego and she married El Cid.
Have I missed a distaff descent somewhere?)
sk...@ix.netcom.com
(1) Rodrigo F. de Toroño is billed as "Alférez Real" of Leon.
Nowadays "alférez" means "second-lieutenant." Surely it meant
something more distinguished in old Leon. But, what?
(2) What was the name of the sister of Sancha Rodriguez not-Lara, and
is there a handy pedigree of her husband _____ Silva?
(3) Is there a handy pedigree of Rodrigo Fernandez de Toroño?
Thanks
Skip
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> Todd A. Farmerie mentions in passing, in his ahnentafel of Sancha
> Rodriguez (soc.genealogy.medieval, 21 April 1998), that Munio
> Rodriguez' first wife was "Jimena Ordoñez, grandaughter of Vermudo
> II." TAF does not name the intermediate parents, but on nomenclature
> grounds the "grand-daughter of Vermudo II" whom he does name, viz.,
> Jimena Ordoñez, should have a father named Ordoño who should be a son
> of Vermudo II.
Yes, Ordono Vermudez. (Note that this needn't have been the case, since
the descent could have been maternal.)
> There remains the question, which of Vermudo's wives
> was Ordoño's mother?
Neither. He was illegitimate, mother unknown.
> (We know that Vermudo had another grandaughter
> named Jimena, but her father's name was Diego and she married El Cid.
> Have I missed a distaff descent somewhere?)
The ancestry of Jimena was covered in my Cid AT.
An account from the 18th century claimed that Jimena, wife of El Cid,
was daughter of Jimena Alfonso, the daughter of Alfonso V.
The work of Menendez Pidal, in the middle of this century, demonstrated
that Jimena, wife of El Cid was sister of Rodrigo and Fernando Diaz, and
that these were children of "Count Diego" and "Countess Christina". In
a separate document, one of them is named as grandson of Fernando
Gundemariz. He then concluded that Jimena Diaz was daughter of Diego by
Christina Fernandez, daughter of Fernando Gundemariz by Jimena Alfonso,
daughter of Alfonso V. Menendez Pidal failed to identify the Count
Diego as any particular individual.
Recently, Salazar Acha, in his analysis of the Vela family, concluded
that Diego was none other that a count Diego Fernandez, and this
suggested that it was he, and not Christina who was the child of
Fernando Gundemariz. (Looking at Menendez Pidal, one can find no reason
he made Fernando Gundemariz the maternal grandfather, rather than the
paternal one.)
Now this Fernando Gundemariz is presumably the same one who appears in a
1040s document with his wife Muniadomna Ordonez (discussed by both Saez
Sanchez and Matosso, although the latter clearly misplaces her in the
pedigree). Taking another look at Menendez Pidal we find that he had no
more reason for making Jimena Alfonso the wife of Fernando Gundemariz
than he did for making them the parents of Christina. He appears to
have simply concluded that since she couldn't have been the mother, she
must have been the grandmother. I have found no documentation that
Fernando Gundemariz was married to anyone other than Muniadomna.
Likewise, her name suggests that Jimena Alfonso was daughter of Alfonso
V by his second wife, Urraca Garcia of Navarre, and if this is the case,
she could not possibly have been the mother of Diego Fernandez, for
chronological reasons.
Having removed Jimena Alfonso from the pedigree, we must now account for
the tradition of a relationship with the Kings of Leon. There appears
to be no possibility of a close kinship among the ancestry of Diego
Fernandez, so we must turn our attention to Christina. (What follows is
speculation, based solely on onomastics, plus this tradition.) The name
Christina is extremely rare at this time period. I have only found two
other examples - Christina Vermudez, daughter of Vermudo II, and her
granddaughter Christina Alfonso. This latter was the same age as our
Countess Christina, and her patronymic is the same as that which had
been assigned to the misnamed royal kinswoman in the original
tradition. I think there is a distinct possibility that countess
Christina, mother of Jimena Diaz, was Christina Alfonso, granddaughter
of Christina Vermudez by his first wife, Velasquita Ramirez.
taf
Todd A. Farmerie
> Nowadays "alférez" means "second-lieutenant." Surely it meant
> something more distinguished in old Leon. But, what?
I am not completely familiar with this title, but he was no more a
second lieutenant than the royal butler took your coat and hat when you
came to visit the king. It was a high administrative office.
> (2) What was the name of the sister of Sancha Rodriguez not-Lara, and
> is there a handy pedigree of her husband _____ Silva?
She is assigned three different names, and it is unclear which is
right. As to her husband, Martin Perez (I think) de Silva, I know of no
recent study, but Salazar y Castro wrote a work on the Silva family, and
his pedigree is probably valid for a few generations.
> (3) Is there a handy pedigree of Rodrigo Fernandez de Torońo?
That was included in my AT. He was #2, #4 and 5 would be his parents.
(You will note that 4 and 5 are blank.)
taf
Craig Levin
>Nowadays "alférez" means "second-lieutenant." Surely it meant
>something more distinguished in old Leon. But, what?
If my memory serves, the Portuguese equivalent-alferes-was used
to refer to the royal standard bearer in the Cronica of King
Joao. This does not seem to have been a minor office-he was
responsible, under the king, for leading the royal host. The
office seems to be similar to the English office of Earl
Marshal.
--
http://pages.ripco.com:8080/~clevin/index.html
cle...@ripco.com
Craig Levin
Francisco Antonio Doria
>office seems to be similar to the English office of Earl
>Marshal.
Good equivalence. Chico Doria
Francisco Antonio Doria
fad...@rio.com.br
Prix Caumont-La Force 1995
Tels.: 021-547-5541/024-231-4133/021-9943-6968
Visit http://www.rio-v.com/costadoria
Visit http://www.eco.ufrj.br/cdoria
U...@aol.com
ta...@po.cwru.edu writes:
> >
> > Todd A. Farmerie mentions in passing, in his ahnentafel of Sancha
> > Rodriguez (soc.genealogy.medieval, 21 April 1998), that Munio
> > Rodriguez' first wife was "Jimena Ordoñez, grandaughter of Vermudo
> > II." TAF does not name the intermediate parents, but on nomenclature
> > grounds the "grand-daughter of Vermudo II" whom he does name, viz.,
> > Jimena Ordoñez, should have a father named Ordoño who should be a son
> > of Vermudo II.
>
> Yes, Ordono Vermudez. (Note that this needn't have been the case, since
> the descent could have been maternal.)
>
Now, I'm really confused. The line I had, I believe from you is:
1. Jimena Ordoñez
2. Ordoño Ramirez
3. Christina Vermudez
4. Ramiro III Sanchez, King of Leon
5. Sancha Gomez
6. Vermudo II Ordoñez, King of Leon
7. Velasquita Ramirez
Where did I go wrong??
Always optimistic--Dave
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> Now, I'm really confused. The line I had, I believe from you is:
>
> 1. Jimena Ordoñez
>
> 2. Ordoño Ramirez
> 3. Christina Vermudez
>
> 4. Ramiro III Sanchez, King of Leon
> 5. Sancha Gomez
> 6. Vermudo II Ordoñez, King of Leon
> 7. Velasquita Ramirez
>
> Where did I go wrong??
This confounds two different lineages I have presented at one time or
another.
A.
1. Christina Alfonso (my guess for the mother of Jimena Diaz, Mrs. Cid)
2. Alfonso Ordonoez
4. Ordono Ramirez
5. Christina Vermudez
8. Ramiro III
9. Sancha Gomez (?)
10.Vermudo II
11.Velasquita Ramirez
--------
B.
1. Jimena Ordonez, wife of Munio Rodriguez (who by his other wife was
ancestor of the Torono sisters)
2. Ordono Vermudez
3. Fronilda Pelaez
4. Vermudo II
5. unknown mistress
6. Pelayo Rodriguez
7. Guntina Fernandez (sister of Jimena, Queen of Navarre)
D. Spencer Hines
DSH
Lux et Veritas
--
D. Spencer Hines --- Leo Tolstoy On Firmly Held Beliefs and Resultant
Mental Gridlock ---
"I know that most men --- not only those considered clever, but even
those who really are clever and capable of understanding the most
difficult scientific, mathematical or philosophic problems, can seldom
discern even the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as
obliges them to admit the falsity of conclusions they have formed,
perhaps with great difficulty --- conclusions of which they are proud,
which they have taught to others, and on which they have built their
lives."
Leo Tolstoy [1896] --- Source: "What Is Art?" --- Leo Tolstoy,
Translated by Aylmer Maude, in Tolstoy's Collected Works, Charles
Scribner's Sons, (1902), Volume 19, p. 468
Todd A. Farmerie wrote in message <369FD2...@po.cwru.edu>...
>U...@aol.com wrote:
>>
>> Now, I'm really confused. The line I had, I believe from you is:
>>
>> 1. Jimena Ordoñez
>>
>> 2. Ordoño Ramirez
>> 3. Christina Vermudez
>>
>> 4. Ramiro III Sanchez, King of Leon
>> 5. Sancha Gomez
>> 6. Vermudo II Ordoñez, King of Leon
>> 7. Velasquita Ramirez
>>
>> Where did I go wrong??
>
>This confounds two different lineages I have presented at one time or
>another.
The word you want is CONFLATES Todd. Not confounds. Conflate means
"to combine into a composite whole, to fuse two things together."
Only Gabby Hayes and Walter Brennan, two old geezers of the cinema,
would use "confounds" in your sentence, supra --- as in, "Confound
It!"
Confound does mean "to mix up or fail to see the differences between,"
and so is acceptable --- but is not as good a choice. Also, the
primary meaning of confound is to discomfit, throw into a confusion or
damn [the Gabby Hayes/Walter Brennan meaning.]
I thought you would want to know that, as a college professor, opinion
leader and role model for our youth. <g>
Sincerely,
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas
Sol Remedium Optimum Est
sk...@ix.netcom.com
the location of "B" in a key-word search of the archives. If there
was more to it than presented below, PLEASE point to it!
On 15 Jan 1999 16:33:53 -0800, ta...@po.cwru.edu (Todd A. Farmerie)
wrote:
>U...@aol.com wrote:
>>
>> Now, I'm really confused. The line I had, I believe from you is:
>>
>> 1. Jimena Ordoñez
>>
>> 2. Ordoño Ramirez
>> 3. Christina Vermudez
>>
>> 4. Ramiro III Sanchez, King of Leon
>> 5. Sancha Gomez
>> 6. Vermudo II Ordoñez, King of Leon
>> 7. Velasquita Ramirez
>>
>> Where did I go wrong??
>
>This confounds two different lineages I have presented at one time or
>another.
>
sk...@ix.netcom.com
<shi...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
<SNIP the Latin>
<SNIP the Tolstoy>
<SNIP the mangled exchange exchange between TAF and UTZ,
except for the point addressed by DSH>
>>This confounds two different lineages I have presented at one time or
>>another.
>
>
>The word you want is CONFLATES Todd. Not confounds. Conflate means
>"to combine into a composite whole, to fuse two things together."
>
>Only Gabby Hayes and Walter Brennan, two old geezers of the cinema,
>would use "confounds" in your sentence, supra --- as in, "Confound
>It!"
WRONG, neither would use the word "confounds," the present tense of
the verb "to confound" because they used the imperative mood as an
expletive.
>
>Confound does mean "to mix up or fail to see the differences between,"
>and so is acceptable --- but is not as good a choice.
WRONG AGAIN. "Conflate" has no pejorative connotation, which TAF
plainly (and correctly) intended.
D. Spencer Hines
Absolute Horsefeathers.
CONFLATES is the correct word.
Check any good English dictionary. "Pejorative" has nothing to do
with it.
Caveat Lector.
D. Spencer Hines
Exitus Acta Probat
--
D. Spencer Hines --- Leo Tolstoy On Firmly Held Beliefs and Resultant
Mental Gridlock ---
"I know that most men --- not only those considered clever, but even
those who really are clever and capable of understanding the most
difficult scientific, mathematical or philosophic problems, can seldom
discern even the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as
obliges them to admit the falsity of conclusions they have formed,
perhaps with great difficulty --- conclusions of which they are proud,
which they have taught to others, and on which they have built their
lives."
Leo Tolstoy [1896] --- Source: "What Is Art?" --- Leo Tolstoy,
Translated by Aylmer Maude, in Tolstoy's Collected Works, Charles
Scribner's Sons, (1902), Volume 19, p. 468
sk...@ix.netcom.com wrote in message
<36aeaa5b....@news.supernews.com>...
sk...@ix.netcom.com
<shi...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Vide infra.
>
>Absolute Horsefeathers.
>
>CONFLATES is the correct word.
>
>Check any good English dictionary. "Pejorative" has nothing to do
>with it.
>
>Caveat Lector.
Contritionem praecedit superbia et ante ruinam exaltatur spiritus.
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> TAF's "A" below is the Cid AT posted 15 Apr 1998, but I *CANNOT* find
> the location of "B" in a key-word search of the archives. If there
> was more to it than presented below, PLEASE point to it!
That's because I never posted B. except perhaps back in 1995 when I was
first discussing the revised ancestry of Teresa. (Prior to the founding
of this list, I had my own little mailing list where I discussed various
spanish lines, and included Teresa's ancestry. It might have been there
that I discussed it.) It only came up recently because of the Torono
descent from Munio Rodriguez.
> >B.
> >
> >1. Jimena Ordonez, wife of Munio Rodriguez (who by his other wife was
> >ancestor of the Torono sisters)
> >
> >2. Ordono Vermudez
> >3. Fronilda Pelaez
> >
> >4. Vermudo II
> >5. unknown mistress
> >6. Pelayo Rodriguez
> >7. Guntina Fernandez (sister of Jimena, Queen of Navarre)
12. (prob) Rodrigo Gutierrez (#202 in Torono AT)
13. (prob) Odrocia Gudesteioz (#203 in Torono AT)
14. Fernando Vermudez
15. Elvira Diaz
28. Vermudo Munoz (son of Infante Munio, according to current thought)
30. Diego Munoz (ancestor of the Banu Gomez - see other descents)
31. Tigridia Nunez
taf