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Descents from Edward I for Francis Place, Artist (1647-1728)
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Brad Verity
Nov 9, 2012, 4:02:43 AM11/9/12
to
The Place family of Halnaby Hall in Yorkshire, then later of Low
Dinsdale Hall in county Durham, were a minor gentry family whose
members never achieved prominence in the political arena. No members
of Parliament, not even any sheriffs. None of the heads of the family
ever received a knighthood. The first Place to marry into the Edward
I bloodline was Roland Place of Halnaby Hall (d. 1493), who married,
in the early 1460s, Margery, the youngest daughter of Sir John Conyers
of Hornby Castle and his wife Margery Darcy. This was a significant
marriage "up" the social ladder for the Places. Halnaby Hall was in
Richmondshire, the chief area of influence of Sir John Conyers. It
may have been Roland's mother Isabel and her relations which helped
him to make such a prestigious match, for Isabel was a Pudsay of
Barforth, and Sir John Conyers's sister had married into that family.
The only male-line descendant of Roland Place and Margery Conyers who
ever achieved any kind of acclaim was Francis Place of York (born
1647, died 21 September 1728 at King's Manor, York, Yorkshire; buried
St Olave Church, York), an artist. A few of his works are in the Tate
Gallery in London. Francis has a bio in the ODNB, and his portrait is
online here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/arts/yourpaintings/paintings/francis-place-16471728-128691
Rather unusually for someone of the northern gentry born in the 17th
century, Francis does not descend from Edward III. He does have three
lines of descent, though, from Edward I, laid out below, with the most
recent individual in Leo's database for each line.
Edward I had 2 daus A1 & C1 (see below)
A1) Elizabeth of England (1282-1316) m. 2) Humphrey de Bohun, Earl of
Hereford (1276-1322), and had a dau A2 & a son B2 (see below)
A2) Eleanor de Bohun (c.1310-1363) m. 1) James Butler, 1st Earl of
Ormond (1305-1338), and had
A3) Pernel Butler (c.1335-1368) m. Gilbert, 3rd Lord Talbot (c.
1332-1387), and had
A4) Elizabeth Talbot (c.1360-1402)* m. Henry, 5th Lord Grey of Wilton
(c.1340-1396), and had
A5) Margaret Grey (c.1380-1454) m. 1) John, 5th Lord Darcy of Knaith
(1377-1411), and had
A6) Philip, 6th Lord Darcy of Knaith (1398-1418) m. Eleanor Fitzhugh
(c.1400-1457), and had
A7) Margery Darcy (1418-1469) m. Sir John Conyers of Hornby Castle
(by1412-1490), and had
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00199727&tree=LEO
A8) Margery Conyers (b. c.1445) m. Roland Place of Halnaby Hall (d.
1493), and had
A9) John Place of Halnaby Hall (1469-bef.1530) m. 1) Katherine
Dodsworth (d. by1497), and had
A10) Roland Place of Halnaby Hall (c.1495-1538) m. 1) Anne Radcliffe
(d. c.1530), and had
A11) Robert Place of Dinsdale (c.1525-1594) m. Mary Allanson (d.
1579), and had
A12) Christopher Place of Low Dinsdale Hall (1556-1624) m. Mary
Tattersall**, and had
A13) Christopher Place of Low Dinsdale Hall (d. 1624) m. Mary
Constable, and had
A14) Roland Place of Low Dinsdale Hall (d. 1676) m. Catherine Withes
(see B12 below), and had
A15) Francis Place of York (1647-1728), artist
B2) William de Bohun, 1st Earl of Northampton (c.1309-1360) m.
Elizabeth Badlesmere (c.1310-1356), and had
B3) Elizabeth de Bohun (c.1344-1385) m. Richard Fitzalan, 4th Earl of
Arundel (1346-1397), and had
B4) Elizabeth Fitzalan (c.1370-1425) m. 3) Sir Robert Goushill of
Hoveringham (c.1360-1403), and had
B5) Joan Goushill (b. 1402) m. Thomas, 1st Lord Stanley (1406-1459),
and had
B6) Katherine Stanley m. Sir John Savage of Clifton (c.1423-1495), and
had
B7) Margaret Savage m. 1) John Honford of Handforth Hall (c.
1435-1478), and had
B8) William Honford of Handforth Hall (d. 1513) m. Sibyl Stargell, and
had
B9) Margaret Honford (1503-by1547) m. 2) Sir Urian Brereton of
Handforth Hall (d. 1577), and had
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00326493&tree=LEO
B10) William Brereton of Handforth Hall (1537-1601) m. Katherine
Hurleston (d. 1618), and had
B11) Dorothy Brereton (b. 1586) m. Charles Withes of Copgrove (see C13
below), and had
B12) Catherine Withes (d. 1679) m. Roland Place of Low Dinsdale Hall
(see A14 above)
C1) Joan of Acre (1272-1307) m. 1) Gilbert de Clare, 6th Earl of
Gloucester (1243-1295), and had
C2) Margaret de Clare (1293-1342) m. 2) Hugh Audley, Earl of
Gloucester (c.1291-1347), and had
C3) Margaret Audley (1321-1349) m. Ralph Stafford, 1st Earl of
Stafford (1301-1372), and had
C4) Hugh Stafford, 2nd Earl of Stafford (1341-1386) m. Philippa
Beauchamp (c.1340-by 1385), and had
C5) Margaret Stafford (c.1365-1396) m. Ralph Neville, 1st Earl of
Westmorland (c.1364-1425), and had
C6) Margaret Neville (1396-1464) m. 1) Richard, 3rd Lord Scrope of
Bolton (1393-1420), and had
C7) Henry, 4th Lord Scrope of Bolton (1418-1459) m. Elizabeth Scrope,
and had
C8) Robert Scrope of Hambleden (d. 1500) m. Katherine Zouche, and had
C9) Anne Scrope (d. aft.1528) m. Thomas Redman of Bossall (d. 1514),
and had
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00616867&tree=LEO
C10) Anne Redman (1505-aft.1577) m. Sir Oswald Wilstrop, and had
C11) Elizabeth Wilstrop m. Cuthbert Redman of Newton, and had
C12) Eleanor Redman m. Edward Withes of Copgrove, and had
C13) Charles Withes of Copgrove m. Dorothy Brereton (see B11 above),
and had
*Some doubts have been raised in the past as to whether Elizabeth
Talbot, Lady Grey of Wilton (Generation #A4 above) was in fact the
daughter of Gilbert, 3rd Lord Talbot & Pernel Butler. No definitive
evidence has surfaced, but the evidence we do have makes me confident
of her parentage.
**Aside from the fact that her family was said to be from
Cambridgeshire, I have not found anything on Mary Tattersall, and have
not been able to identify her parents. There is then a possibility
that there are further Edward I descents in the ancestry of this lady.
Francis Place the artist has been confused in some online pedigrees
with Francis Place of Virginia. See 'Genealogies of Virginia
Families' (2007), pages 46-47:
http://books.google.ca/books?id=55I38FXWyPgC&pg=RA2-PA47&dq=Francis+Place+of+Lancaster+Virginia&hl=en&sa=X&ei=W1icUImAGIbqiwKDn4HoDQ&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Francis%20Place%20of%20Lancaster%20Virginia&f=false
There also was a Rowland Place who patented 1,228 acres in Henrico Co.
in 1669 and was later a member of the Council in Virginia (page 46 in
the link right above). There is a small possibility that this Rowland
was the same as Roland Place of Hurforth (born 1631, living 1666 when
named in a Visitation pedigree of the family, further history not
known), who was a grandson of Christopher Place of Low Dinsdale Hall &
Mary Tattersall (Generation #A12 above). See the Place pedigree in
Surtees's Durham Volume 3 sub Dinsdale:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/image.aspx?compid=76355&filename=fig70.gif&pubid=456
Further research is certainly needed, as there apparently was a Place
family (presumably non-related) in Oxfordshire in the 1563-64
Visitation.
Unless Rowland Place of Henrico County turns out to be descended from
the Places of Low Dinsdale Hall, it would seem that the male-line
descendants of Roland Place of Halnaby Hall & Margery Conyers became
extinct with the death of Roland Place of Low Dinsdale Hall
(1687-1717).
Cheers, --------Brad
Dinsdale Hall in county Durham, were a minor gentry family whose
members never achieved prominence in the political arena. No members
of Parliament, not even any sheriffs. None of the heads of the family
ever received a knighthood. The first Place to marry into the Edward
I bloodline was Roland Place of Halnaby Hall (d. 1493), who married,
in the early 1460s, Margery, the youngest daughter of Sir John Conyers
of Hornby Castle and his wife Margery Darcy. This was a significant
marriage "up" the social ladder for the Places. Halnaby Hall was in
Richmondshire, the chief area of influence of Sir John Conyers. It
may have been Roland's mother Isabel and her relations which helped
him to make such a prestigious match, for Isabel was a Pudsay of
Barforth, and Sir John Conyers's sister had married into that family.
The only male-line descendant of Roland Place and Margery Conyers who
ever achieved any kind of acclaim was Francis Place of York (born
1647, died 21 September 1728 at King's Manor, York, Yorkshire; buried
St Olave Church, York), an artist. A few of his works are in the Tate
Gallery in London. Francis has a bio in the ODNB, and his portrait is
online here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/arts/yourpaintings/paintings/francis-place-16471728-128691
Rather unusually for someone of the northern gentry born in the 17th
century, Francis does not descend from Edward III. He does have three
lines of descent, though, from Edward I, laid out below, with the most
recent individual in Leo's database for each line.
Edward I had 2 daus A1 & C1 (see below)
A1) Elizabeth of England (1282-1316) m. 2) Humphrey de Bohun, Earl of
Hereford (1276-1322), and had a dau A2 & a son B2 (see below)
A2) Eleanor de Bohun (c.1310-1363) m. 1) James Butler, 1st Earl of
Ormond (1305-1338), and had
A3) Pernel Butler (c.1335-1368) m. Gilbert, 3rd Lord Talbot (c.
1332-1387), and had
A4) Elizabeth Talbot (c.1360-1402)* m. Henry, 5th Lord Grey of Wilton
(c.1340-1396), and had
A5) Margaret Grey (c.1380-1454) m. 1) John, 5th Lord Darcy of Knaith
(1377-1411), and had
A6) Philip, 6th Lord Darcy of Knaith (1398-1418) m. Eleanor Fitzhugh
(c.1400-1457), and had
A7) Margery Darcy (1418-1469) m. Sir John Conyers of Hornby Castle
(by1412-1490), and had
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00199727&tree=LEO
A8) Margery Conyers (b. c.1445) m. Roland Place of Halnaby Hall (d.
1493), and had
A9) John Place of Halnaby Hall (1469-bef.1530) m. 1) Katherine
Dodsworth (d. by1497), and had
A10) Roland Place of Halnaby Hall (c.1495-1538) m. 1) Anne Radcliffe
(d. c.1530), and had
A11) Robert Place of Dinsdale (c.1525-1594) m. Mary Allanson (d.
1579), and had
A12) Christopher Place of Low Dinsdale Hall (1556-1624) m. Mary
Tattersall**, and had
A13) Christopher Place of Low Dinsdale Hall (d. 1624) m. Mary
Constable, and had
A14) Roland Place of Low Dinsdale Hall (d. 1676) m. Catherine Withes
(see B12 below), and had
A15) Francis Place of York (1647-1728), artist
B2) William de Bohun, 1st Earl of Northampton (c.1309-1360) m.
Elizabeth Badlesmere (c.1310-1356), and had
B3) Elizabeth de Bohun (c.1344-1385) m. Richard Fitzalan, 4th Earl of
Arundel (1346-1397), and had
B4) Elizabeth Fitzalan (c.1370-1425) m. 3) Sir Robert Goushill of
Hoveringham (c.1360-1403), and had
B5) Joan Goushill (b. 1402) m. Thomas, 1st Lord Stanley (1406-1459),
and had
B6) Katherine Stanley m. Sir John Savage of Clifton (c.1423-1495), and
had
B7) Margaret Savage m. 1) John Honford of Handforth Hall (c.
1435-1478), and had
B8) William Honford of Handforth Hall (d. 1513) m. Sibyl Stargell, and
had
B9) Margaret Honford (1503-by1547) m. 2) Sir Urian Brereton of
Handforth Hall (d. 1577), and had
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00326493&tree=LEO
B10) William Brereton of Handforth Hall (1537-1601) m. Katherine
Hurleston (d. 1618), and had
B11) Dorothy Brereton (b. 1586) m. Charles Withes of Copgrove (see C13
below), and had
B12) Catherine Withes (d. 1679) m. Roland Place of Low Dinsdale Hall
(see A14 above)
C1) Joan of Acre (1272-1307) m. 1) Gilbert de Clare, 6th Earl of
Gloucester (1243-1295), and had
C2) Margaret de Clare (1293-1342) m. 2) Hugh Audley, Earl of
Gloucester (c.1291-1347), and had
C3) Margaret Audley (1321-1349) m. Ralph Stafford, 1st Earl of
Stafford (1301-1372), and had
C4) Hugh Stafford, 2nd Earl of Stafford (1341-1386) m. Philippa
Beauchamp (c.1340-by 1385), and had
C5) Margaret Stafford (c.1365-1396) m. Ralph Neville, 1st Earl of
Westmorland (c.1364-1425), and had
C6) Margaret Neville (1396-1464) m. 1) Richard, 3rd Lord Scrope of
Bolton (1393-1420), and had
C7) Henry, 4th Lord Scrope of Bolton (1418-1459) m. Elizabeth Scrope,
and had
C8) Robert Scrope of Hambleden (d. 1500) m. Katherine Zouche, and had
C9) Anne Scrope (d. aft.1528) m. Thomas Redman of Bossall (d. 1514),
and had
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00616867&tree=LEO
C10) Anne Redman (1505-aft.1577) m. Sir Oswald Wilstrop, and had
C11) Elizabeth Wilstrop m. Cuthbert Redman of Newton, and had
C12) Eleanor Redman m. Edward Withes of Copgrove, and had
C13) Charles Withes of Copgrove m. Dorothy Brereton (see B11 above),
and had
*Some doubts have been raised in the past as to whether Elizabeth
Talbot, Lady Grey of Wilton (Generation #A4 above) was in fact the
daughter of Gilbert, 3rd Lord Talbot & Pernel Butler. No definitive
evidence has surfaced, but the evidence we do have makes me confident
of her parentage.
**Aside from the fact that her family was said to be from
Cambridgeshire, I have not found anything on Mary Tattersall, and have
not been able to identify her parents. There is then a possibility
that there are further Edward I descents in the ancestry of this lady.
Francis Place the artist has been confused in some online pedigrees
with Francis Place of Virginia. See 'Genealogies of Virginia
Families' (2007), pages 46-47:
http://books.google.ca/books?id=55I38FXWyPgC&pg=RA2-PA47&dq=Francis+Place+of+Lancaster+Virginia&hl=en&sa=X&ei=W1icUImAGIbqiwKDn4HoDQ&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Francis%20Place%20of%20Lancaster%20Virginia&f=false
There also was a Rowland Place who patented 1,228 acres in Henrico Co.
in 1669 and was later a member of the Council in Virginia (page 46 in
the link right above). There is a small possibility that this Rowland
was the same as Roland Place of Hurforth (born 1631, living 1666 when
named in a Visitation pedigree of the family, further history not
known), who was a grandson of Christopher Place of Low Dinsdale Hall &
Mary Tattersall (Generation #A12 above). See the Place pedigree in
Surtees's Durham Volume 3 sub Dinsdale:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/image.aspx?compid=76355&filename=fig70.gif&pubid=456
Further research is certainly needed, as there apparently was a Place
family (presumably non-related) in Oxfordshire in the 1563-64
Visitation.
Unless Rowland Place of Henrico County turns out to be descended from
the Places of Low Dinsdale Hall, it would seem that the male-line
descendants of Roland Place of Halnaby Hall & Margery Conyers became
extinct with the death of Roland Place of Low Dinsdale Hall
(1687-1717).
Cheers, --------Brad
Brad Verity
Nov 9, 2012, 4:09:06 AM11/9/12
to
On Nov 9, 1:02 am, Brad Verity <royaldesc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Unless Rowland Place of Henrico County turns out to be descended from
> the Places of Low Dinsdale Hall, it would seem that the male-line
> descendants of Roland Place of Halnaby Hall & Margery Conyers became
> extinct with the death of Roland Place of Low Dinsdale Hall
> (1687-1717).
Whoops, meant to say that the male-line descendants of Roland Place &
> Unless Rowland Place of Henrico County turns out to be descended from
> the Places of Low Dinsdale Hall, it would seem that the male-line
> descendants of Roland Place of Halnaby Hall & Margery Conyers became
> extinct with the death of Roland Place of Low Dinsdale Hall
> (1687-1717).
Margery Conyers became extinct in 1728 on the death of Francis Place
the artist, who survived his nephew by almost 12 years.
Cheers, -----Brad
Doug Smith
Nov 9, 2012, 7:31:45 AM11/9/12
to
West Yorkshire Archive Service, Leeds
You are here Charles Wythes of Copgrove and Dorothey Brereton, marriage settlement re Copgrove and Staveley
Charles Wythes of Copgrove and Dorothey Brereton, marriage settlement re Copgrove and Staveley
The entire contents of this catalogue are shown below. Browse the hierarchical structure instead
Reference ACC 1331
Covering dates 1612
Held by West Yorkshire Archive Service, Leeds
Creators Wythes, Charles, fl 1612; Brereton, Dorothy, fl 1612
Contents:
Marriage settlement
Doug
Brad Verity
Nov 9, 2012, 1:18:08 PM11/9/12
to
On Nov 9, 4:31 am, Doug Smith <smith.doug...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Charles Wythes of Copgrove and Dorothey Brereton, marriage settlement re Copgrove and Staveley
> Charles Wythes of Copgrove and Dorothey Brereton, marriage settlement re Copgrove and Staveley
> Reference ACC 1331
> Covering dates 1612
> Held by West Yorkshire Archive Service, Leeds
> Creators Wythes, Charles, fl 1612; Brereton, Dorothy, fl 1612
Many thanks for this, Doug. It's great to have a marriage date for
> Covering dates 1612
> Held by West Yorkshire Archive Service, Leeds
> Creators Wythes, Charles, fl 1612; Brereton, Dorothy, fl 1612
them.
Thanks & Cheers, -----Brad
Wjhonson
Nov 10, 2012, 2:22:28 AM11/10/12
to royald...@hotmail.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
William Brereton and Catherine Hirleston had no issue
Short History of the Mainwaring Family
R Mainwaring Finley
Griffith, Farran, Okeden & Walsh. London (reprint 1976)
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com
with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of
the message
Short History of the Mainwaring Family
R Mainwaring Finley
Griffith, Farran, Okeden & Walsh. London (reprint 1976)
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com
with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of
the message
Brad Verity
Nov 10, 2012, 3:22:56 AM11/10/12
to
On Nov 9, 11:22 pm, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> William Brereton and Catherine Hirleston had no issue
> Short History of the Mainwaring Family
> R Mainwaring Finley
> Griffith, Farran, Okeden & Walsh. London (reprint 1976)
http://histfam.familysearch.org/familygroup.php?familyID=F57166&tree=Welsh
> William Brereton and Catherine Hirleston had no issue
> Short History of the Mainwaring Family
> R Mainwaring Finley
> Griffith, Farran, Okeden & Walsh. London (reprint 1976)
The list of sources is at the bottom.
Cheers, --------Brad
Wjhonson
Nov 10, 2012, 9:17:32 AM11/10/12
to royald...@hotmail.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
This is confused. Which is what you get when a source just lumps half a dozen at the end instead of "in-line" citations. The key here is Urian Brereton the progenitor.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brad Verity <royald...@hotmail.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
-----Original Message-----
From: Brad Verity <royald...@hotmail.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Wjhonson
Nov 10, 2012, 10:35:24 AM11/10/12
to wjho...@aol.com, royald...@hotmail.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
I've now located the IPM of the Brereton's in this line
Which allows me to correct my statement that Catherine Hirleston had no issue
In fact her son William Brereton can be given an exact birthdate of 12 Oct 1584
-----Original Message-----
From: Wjhonson <wjho...@aol.com>
To: royaldescent <royald...@hotmail.com>; gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, Nov 10, 2012 6:17 am
Subject: Re: Descents from Edward I for Francis Place, Artist (1647-1728)
This is confused. Which is what you get when a source just lumps half a dozen
at the end instead of "in-line" citations. The key here is Urian Brereton the
progenitor.
Which allows me to correct my statement that Catherine Hirleston had no issue
In fact her son William Brereton can be given an exact birthdate of 12 Oct 1584
-----Original Message-----
From: Wjhonson <wjho...@aol.com>
To: royaldescent <royald...@hotmail.com>; gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, Nov 10, 2012 6:17 am
Subject: Re: Descents from Edward I for Francis Place, Artist (1647-1728)
This is confused. Which is what you get when a source just lumps half a dozen
at the end instead of "in-line" citations. The key here is Urian Brereton the
progenitor.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brad Verity <royald...@hotmail.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
From: Brad Verity <royald...@hotmail.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, Nov 10, 2012 12:49 am
John Higgins
Nov 10, 2012, 1:58:00 PM11/10/12
to
On Nov 9, 1:02 am, Brad Verity <royaldesc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> The Place family of Halnaby Hall in Yorkshire, then later of Low
> Dinsdale Hall in county Durham, were a minor gentry family whose
> members never achieved prominence in the political arena. No members
> of Parliament, not even any sheriffs. None of the heads of the family
> ever received a knighthood. The first Place to marry into the Edward
> I bloodline was Roland Place of Halnaby Hall (d. 1493), who married,
> in the early 1460s, Margery, the youngest daughter of Sir John Conyers
> of Hornby Castle and his wife Margery Darcy. This was a significant
> marriage "up" the social ladder for the Places. Halnaby Hall was in
> Richmondshire, the chief area of influence of Sir John Conyers. It
> may have been Roland's mother Isabel and her relations which helped
> him to make such a prestigious match, for Isabel was a Pudsay of
> Barforth, and Sir John Conyers's sister had married into that family.
>
> The only male-line descendant of Roland Place and Margery Conyers who
> ever achieved any kind of acclaim was Francis Place of York (born
> 1647, died 21 September 1728 at King's Manor, York, Yorkshire; buried
> St Olave Church, York), an artist. A few of his works are in the Tate
> Gallery in London. Francis has a bio in the ODNB, and his portrait is
> online here:http://www.bbc.co.uk/arts/yourpaintings/paintings/francis-place-16471...
> Dinsdale Hall in county Durham, were a minor gentry family whose
> members never achieved prominence in the political arena. No members
> of Parliament, not even any sheriffs. None of the heads of the family
> ever received a knighthood. The first Place to marry into the Edward
> I bloodline was Roland Place of Halnaby Hall (d. 1493), who married,
> in the early 1460s, Margery, the youngest daughter of Sir John Conyers
> of Hornby Castle and his wife Margery Darcy. This was a significant
> marriage "up" the social ladder for the Places. Halnaby Hall was in
> Richmondshire, the chief area of influence of Sir John Conyers. It
> may have been Roland's mother Isabel and her relations which helped
> him to make such a prestigious match, for Isabel was a Pudsay of
> Barforth, and Sir John Conyers's sister had married into that family.
>
> The only male-line descendant of Roland Place and Margery Conyers who
> ever achieved any kind of acclaim was Francis Place of York (born
> 1647, died 21 September 1728 at King's Manor, York, Yorkshire; buried
> St Olave Church, York), an artist. A few of his works are in the Tate
> Gallery in London. Francis has a bio in the ODNB, and his portrait is
>
> Rather unusually for someone of the northern gentry born in the 17th
> century, Francis does not descend from Edward III. He does have three
> lines of descent, though, from Edward I, laid out below, with the most
> recent individual in Leo's database for each line.
>
> Edward I had 2 daus A1 & C1 (see below)
> A1) Elizabeth of England (1282-1316) m. 2) Humphrey de Bohun, Earl of
> Hereford (1276-1322), and had a dau A2 & a son B2 (see below)
> A2) Eleanor de Bohun (c.1310-1363) m. 1) James Butler, 1st Earl of
> Ormond (1305-1338), and had
> A3) Pernel Butler (c.1335-1368) m. Gilbert, 3rd Lord Talbot (c.
> 1332-1387), and had
> A4) Elizabeth Talbot (c.1360-1402)* m. Henry, 5th Lord Grey of Wilton
> (c.1340-1396), and had
> A5) Margaret Grey (c.1380-1454) m. 1) John, 5th Lord Darcy of Knaith
> (1377-1411), and had
> A6) Philip, 6th Lord Darcy of Knaith (1398-1418) m. Eleanor Fitzhugh
> (c.1400-1457), and had
> A7) Margery Darcy (1418-1469) m. Sir John Conyers of Hornby Castle
> (by1412-1490), and hadhttp://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00199727&tree=LEO
> Rather unusually for someone of the northern gentry born in the 17th
> century, Francis does not descend from Edward III. He does have three
> lines of descent, though, from Edward I, laid out below, with the most
> recent individual in Leo's database for each line.
>
> Edward I had 2 daus A1 & C1 (see below)
> A1) Elizabeth of England (1282-1316) m. 2) Humphrey de Bohun, Earl of
> Hereford (1276-1322), and had a dau A2 & a son B2 (see below)
> A2) Eleanor de Bohun (c.1310-1363) m. 1) James Butler, 1st Earl of
> Ormond (1305-1338), and had
> A3) Pernel Butler (c.1335-1368) m. Gilbert, 3rd Lord Talbot (c.
> 1332-1387), and had
> A4) Elizabeth Talbot (c.1360-1402)* m. Henry, 5th Lord Grey of Wilton
> (c.1340-1396), and had
> A5) Margaret Grey (c.1380-1454) m. 1) John, 5th Lord Darcy of Knaith
> (1377-1411), and had
> A6) Philip, 6th Lord Darcy of Knaith (1398-1418) m. Eleanor Fitzhugh
> (c.1400-1457), and had
> A7) Margery Darcy (1418-1469) m. Sir John Conyers of Hornby Castle
> B10) William Brereton of Handforth Hall (1537-1601) m. Katherine
> Hurleston (d. 1618), and had
> B11) Dorothy Brereton (b. 1586) m. Charles Withes of Copgrove (see C13
> below), and had
> B12) Catherine Withes (d. 1679) m. Roland Place of Low Dinsdale Hall
> (see A14 above)
>
> C1) Joan of Acre (1272-1307) m. 1) Gilbert de Clare, 6th Earl of
> Gloucester (1243-1295), and had
> C2) Margaret de Clare (1293-1342) m. 2) Hugh Audley, Earl of
> Gloucester (c.1291-1347), and had
> C3) Margaret Audley (1321-1349) m. Ralph Stafford, 1st Earl of
> Stafford (1301-1372), and had
> C4) Hugh Stafford, 2nd Earl of Stafford (1341-1386) m. Philippa
> Beauchamp (c.1340-by 1385), and had
> C5) Margaret Stafford (c.1365-1396) m. Ralph Neville, 1st Earl of
> Westmorland (c.1364-1425), and had
> C6) Margaret Neville (1396-1464) m. 1) Richard, 3rd Lord Scrope of
> Bolton (1393-1420), and had
> C7) Henry, 4th Lord Scrope of Bolton (1418-1459) m. Elizabeth Scrope,
> and had
> C8) Robert Scrope of Hambleden (d. 1500) m. Katherine Zouche, and had
> C9) Anne Scrope (d. aft.1528) m. Thomas Redman of Bossall (d. 1514),
> and hadhttp://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00616867&tree=LEO
> Hurleston (d. 1618), and had
> B11) Dorothy Brereton (b. 1586) m. Charles Withes of Copgrove (see C13
> below), and had
> B12) Catherine Withes (d. 1679) m. Roland Place of Low Dinsdale Hall
> (see A14 above)
>
> C1) Joan of Acre (1272-1307) m. 1) Gilbert de Clare, 6th Earl of
> Gloucester (1243-1295), and had
> C2) Margaret de Clare (1293-1342) m. 2) Hugh Audley, Earl of
> Gloucester (c.1291-1347), and had
> C3) Margaret Audley (1321-1349) m. Ralph Stafford, 1st Earl of
> Stafford (1301-1372), and had
> C4) Hugh Stafford, 2nd Earl of Stafford (1341-1386) m. Philippa
> Beauchamp (c.1340-by 1385), and had
> C5) Margaret Stafford (c.1365-1396) m. Ralph Neville, 1st Earl of
> Westmorland (c.1364-1425), and had
> C6) Margaret Neville (1396-1464) m. 1) Richard, 3rd Lord Scrope of
> Bolton (1393-1420), and had
> C7) Henry, 4th Lord Scrope of Bolton (1418-1459) m. Elizabeth Scrope,
> and had
> C8) Robert Scrope of Hambleden (d. 1500) m. Katherine Zouche, and had
> C9) Anne Scrope (d. aft.1528) m. Thomas Redman of Bossall (d. 1514),
> C10) Anne Redman (1505-aft.1577) m. Sir Oswald Wilstrop, and had
> C11) Elizabeth Wilstrop m. Cuthbert Redman of Newton, and had
> C12) Eleanor Redman m. Edward Withes of Copgrove, and had
> C13) Charles Withes of Copgrove m. Dorothy Brereton (see B11 above),
> and had
>
> Cheers, --------Brad
> C11) Elizabeth Wilstrop m. Cuthbert Redman of Newton, and had
> C12) Eleanor Redman m. Edward Withes of Copgrove, and had
> C13) Charles Withes of Copgrove m. Dorothy Brereton (see B11 above),
> and had
>
I believe there are possibly two additional Edward I descents for
Francis Place the artist - specifically, via Sir Oswald Wilstrop
above. Sir Oswald was the son of Guy Wilstrop, and according to a
detailed pedigree of the Bigod family in Yorkshire Archaeological
Journal, v. 32 (1936), Guy was married to Agnes, daughter of Sir Ralph
Bigod of Settrington by his 1st wife Margaret Constable. Sir Ralph was
the son of Sir John Bigod and Elizabeth Scrope of Bolton, both of whom
are Edward I descendants.
Sir Oswald's mother is also named as Agnes Bigod in a Wilstrop
pedigree in Flower's 1563-4 visitation of Yorkshire (HSP vol. 16).
However the fly in the ointment here is that I've also seen at least
one secondary source that identifies Agnes as being daughter of Sir
Ralph Pigott of Clotherhome - but I can find no other confirmation of
this. And the Bigod pedigree in YAJ mentioned about seems to be well
supported with primary documents.
Brad, you're the Yorkshire expert - can you add anything on this?
Brad Verity
Nov 10, 2012, 4:07:10 PM11/10/12
to
On Nov 10, 10:58 am, John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Sir Oswald's mother is also named as Agnes Bigod in a Wilstrop
> pedigree in Flower's 1563-4 visitation of Yorkshire (HSP vol. 16).
I don't care for that Visitation of Yorkshire volume, as it combines
> Sir Oswald's mother is also named as Agnes Bigod in a Wilstrop
> pedigree in Flower's 1563-4 visitation of Yorkshire (HSP vol. 16).
several different visitations into one. But I checked the Wilstrop
pedigree in the Yorkshire Visitation of 1575, and Agnes is a Bigod in
it.
> And the Bigod pedigree in YAJ mentioned about seems to be well
> supported with primary documents.
Thank you for catching this, John! The Bigod ancestry actually makes
Francis Place a descendant of Edward III in 13 generations. Here is
the descent, with a link to the most recent individual in Leo's
database.
Edward III had
1) John of Gaunt, 1st Duke of Lancaster (1340-1399) m. 3) Katherine
Roet (c.1350-1403), and had
2) Joan Beaufort (c.1377-1440) m. 1) Sir Robert Ferrers, Heir of Wemme
(c.1372-1396), and had
3) Elizabeth Ferrers (1393-1434) m. John, 4th Lord Greystoke (c.
1390-1436), and had
4) Anne Greystoke (c.1417-1477) m. Sir Ralph Bigod of Settrington
(1410-1461), and had
5) Sir John Bigod, Heir of Settrington (c.1435-1461) m. Elizabeth
Scrope (c.1438-1503, descended from Edward I), and had
6) Sir Ralph Bigod of Settrington (1458-1515) m. 1) Margaret
Constable, and had
7) Agnes Bigod (b. c.1483) m. Guy Wilstrop of Wilstrop (c.1483-1520),
and had
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00346619&tree=LEO
8) Sir Oswald Wilstrop of Wilstrop (c.1503-1574) m. Anne Redman (1505-
aft1577, descended from Edward I), and had
9) Elizabeth Wilstrop m. Cuthbert Redman of Newton, and had
10) Eleanor Redman m. Edward Withes of Copgrove, and had
11) Charles Withes of Copgrove m. Dorothy Brereton (b. 1586, descended
from Edward I), and had
12) Catherine Withes (d. 1679) m. Roland Place of Low Dinsdale Hall
(d. 1676, descended from Edward I), and had
13) Francis Place of York (1647-1728), artist
Thanks & Cheers, -------Brad
John Higgins
Nov 10, 2012, 5:32:26 PM11/10/12
to
On Nov 10, 1:07 pm, Brad Verity <royaldesc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 10, 10:58 am, John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Sir Oswald's mother is also named as Agnes Bigod in a Wilstrop
> > pedigree in Flower's 1563-4 visitation of Yorkshire (HSP vol. 16).
>
> I don't care for that Visitation of Yorkshire volume, as it combines
> several different visitations into one. But I checked the Wilstrop
> pedigree in the Yorkshire Visitation of 1575, and Agnes is a Bigod in
> it.
I'm sure you've probably told us before, but remind me again, if you
> On Nov 10, 10:58 am, John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Sir Oswald's mother is also named as Agnes Bigod in a Wilstrop
> > pedigree in Flower's 1563-4 visitation of Yorkshire (HSP vol. 16).
>
> I don't care for that Visitation of Yorkshire volume, as it combines
> several different visitations into one. But I checked the Wilstrop
> pedigree in the Yorkshire Visitation of 1575, and Agnes is a Bigod in
> it.
would: Where is the 1575 visitation of Yorkshire to be found? In the
Surtees volumes titled the Visitations of the North, perhaps?
Brad Verity
Nov 10, 2012, 6:16:51 PM11/10/12
to
On Nov 10, 2:32 pm, John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I'm sure you've probably told us before, but remind me again, if you
> would: Where is the 1575 visitation of Yorkshire to be found? In the
> Surtees volumes titled the Visitations of the North, perhaps?
Surtees Society Volume 146 (1932):
> I'm sure you've probably told us before, but remind me again, if you
> would: Where is the 1575 visitation of Yorkshire to be found? In the
> Surtees volumes titled the Visitations of the North, perhaps?
http://www.uiowa.edu/~c030149a/northern/surtees146text.pdf
Cheers, -----Brad
John Higgins
Nov 10, 2012, 6:35:39 PM11/10/12
to
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