Dulcia (Alice) Savage and Sir Henry Bold Lineage

[marlow...@frontier.com]

I have a weak link with my grandmother some refer to as Dulcia (Alice) Savage that married Henry Bold from my Eltonhead line. I have it as a weak line to Edward I and possibly this one to Henry III. But after this lineage I have two references for consideration of her lineage if it is true or false.

I do have another line of my Richard Eltonhead and Anne Sutton dau of Peter Stanley and second wife Cicley Tarleton that goes to Henry II of England.

After this lineage there are two sources to determine the outcome. One is the 1580 Visitation of Cheshire of the Savage line and the other is Farrar and Brownbill in VCH Lancaster 3 that gives as their source for the 1464 marriage covenant of Dulcia [Dowse] Savage and Henry Bold - Dods. MSS.cxlii, n. 98

Henry III of England m. Eleanor de Providence
Edmund Crouchback m. Blanche d 'Artois
Henry Plantagenet of Leicester m. Maude de Chaworth
Eleanor of Castile m. Richard Arundel/FitzAlan 10th Earl of Arundel
Richard Arundel /FitzAlan, 11th Earl of Arundel m. Elizabeth Bohun
Elizabeth Arundel/FitzAlan m. Sir Robert Goushill
Joan Goushill m. Thomas Stanley
Catherine Stanley m. John Savage
DULCIA (ALICE) SAVAGE m. SIR HENRY BOLD
Maud Bold m. Thomas Gerrard
Jennett Gerrard m. Richard Eltonhead
William Eltonhead m. Anne Bowers
Richard Eltonhead m. Anne Sutton dau of Edward Sutton and (2) Cecily Tarleton
Martha Eltonhead m. Edwin Conway, Sr .. came to Virginia

In the Visitation of Cheshire 1580:
Savage of Clifton .. no dates

Sir John Savage m. Anne of Walkington
Sir John Savage
Sir Robert Savage
Sir John Savage m. Margaret dau of Tho. Daniers.. after married Peter Leigh
SIR JOHN SAVAGE, KNT. DIED AT AGINCOURT 1415 m. MAUD DAUGHTER OF ROBERT SWINNERTON
ALICE xxor SR. HENRY BOLD

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=41356

Farrar and Brownbill in VCH Lancaster 3 give as their source for the 1464 marriage covenant of Dulcia [Dowse] Savage and Henry Bold - Dods. MSS.cxlii, n. 98.

Comments are welcome.

Marianne Dillow

[marlow...@frontier.com]

Typo. Below that should be Edward Sutton and Anne Stanley instead of Cicely Tarleton....... Marianne Dillow

----- Original Message -----
From: marlow...@frontier.com
To: GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 8:35:49 PM
Subject: Dulcia (Alice) Savage and Sir Henry Bold Lineage

I have a weak link with my grandmother some refer to as Dulcia (Alice) Savage that married Henry Bold from my Eltonhead line. I have it as a weak line to Edward I and possibly this one to Henry III. But after this lineage I have two references for consideration of her lineage if it is true or false.

I do have another line of my Richard Eltonhead and Anne Sutton dau of Peter Stanley and second wife Cicley Tarleton that goes to Henry II of England.

After this lineage there are two sources to determine the outcome. One is the 1580 Visitation of Cheshire of the Savage line and the other is Farrar and Brownbill in VCH Lancaster 3 that gives as their source for the 1464 marriage covenant of Dulcia [Dowse] Savage and Henry Bold - Dods. MSS.cxlii, n. 98

Henry III of England m. Eleanor de Providence
Edmund Crouchback m. Blanche d 'Artois
Henry Plantagenet of Leicester m. Maude de Chaworth
Eleanor of Castile m. Richard Arundel/FitzAlan 10th Earl of Arundel
Richard Arundel /FitzAlan, 11th Earl of Arundel m. Elizabeth Bohun
Elizabeth Arundel/FitzAlan m. Sir Robert Goushill
Joan Goushill m. Thomas Stanley
Catherine Stanley m. John Savage
DULCIA (ALICE) SAVAGE m. SIR HENRY BOLD
Maud Bold m. Thomas Gerrard
Jennett Gerrard m. Richard Eltonhead
William Eltonhead m. Anne Bowers

Richard Eltonhead m. Anne Sutton dau of Edward Sutton and (2) Cecily Tarleton..... TYPO... (should be Edward Sutton and Anne Stanley. )

[Wjhonson]

http://books.google.com/books?id=iawKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA203

Martha Eltonhead m. Edwin Conway, Sr .. came to Virginia

In the Visitation of Cheshire 1580:
Savage of Clifton .. no dates

Sir John Savage m. Anne of Walkington
Sir John Savage
Sir Robert Savage
Sir John Savage m. Margaret dau of Tho. Daniers.. after married Peter Leigh
SIR JOHN SAVAGE, KNT. DIED AT AGINCOURT 1415 m. MAUD DAUGHTER OF ROBERT
SWINNERTON
ALICE xxor SR. HENRY BOLD

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=41356

Farrar and Brownbill in VCH Lancaster 3 give as their source for the 1464
marriage covenant of Dulcia [Dowse] Savage and Henry Bold - Dods. MSS.cxlii, n.
98.

Comments are welcome.

Marianne Dillow

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[marlow...@frontier.com]

Thanks Will. But that is the same Savage chart I posted on In the Visitation of Cheshire 1580. I should have posted that link. I guess there are so many John Savages it will never get straightened out. I don't claim lineages if they can't be proven by records. Too many people do that. To me it is a theory if it can't be proven by records.

Thanks anyway. I appreciate it.

Marianne Dillow


----- Original Message -----

[Wjhonson]

It's always useful to others readings to post the exact link, so they don't all have to hunt it down every time it's mentioned.

The reason she is called Dulcia Alice is revealed by this link, since it mentions an Alice, in a prior generation as the wife of *a* Sir Henry Bold.

Either this Vis is wrong, or there were *two* marriages of a Miss Savage to a Sir Henry Bolde. Which requires then *two* Sir Henry Bolde's since these marriages obviously are decades apart.

By the way "Dulcia" means "Sweetie" and so perhaps is not a proper name at all.
Someone needs to find that marriage settlement and quote it.

[marlow...@frontier.com]

Your right I just forgot to post the link on the 1580 Cheshire Visitation. . According to that chart it does not go to Edward I or Henry III.

On this. it looks like in the Bold family there are two Henry Bold's.. one older and mine is probably the younger one although it mentions more than one Richard Bold also. But I am not sure at this point.

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=41356

This seems rather confusing to me as I haven't studied my Bold or Gerard lines that well yet as I have concentrated on the others.

I google and have seen Todd Whitesides postings as I think he descends from my Martha Eltonhead's sister Jane Eltonhead who married Cuthbert Fenwick who lived in St. Mary's Co, Maryland although I have never met him or corresponded with him. The last posting I saw from him was in 2005 on some of this

Mariann e Dillow

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wjhonson" <wjho...@aol.com>
To: marlow...@frontier.com, GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:15:22 PM
Subject: Re: Dulcia (Alice) Savage and Sir Henry Bold Lineage

It's always useful to others readings to post the exact link, so they don't all have to hunt it down every time it's mentioned.

The reason she is called Dulcia Alice is reve aled by this link, since it mention s an Alice, in a prior generation as the wife of *a * Sir Henry Bold.

Either this Vis is wrong, or there were *two* marriages of a Miss Savage to a Sir Henry Bolde. Which requires then *two* Sir Henry Bolde 's since these marriages obviously are decades apart.

B y the way "Dulcia" means "Sweetie" and so perhaps is not a proper name at all.

[marlow...@frontier.com]

This was posted bt Todd Whitesides but every time I google for it , it doesn't show up on the marriage record of Dulcia. (Alice) Bold

"Henry de Bolde, Knt., of Bold with his son Richard were both parties to the
20 Oct . 1464 marriage settlement of Richard's son Henry with Dulcie, daughter
of John de Savage, Esq. [see Beamont MSS ~ MS 579]. This younger Henry Bold
was made a knight on 16 Jun . 1487 at the battle of Stoke-on-Trent [see
Shaw's The Knights of England 2:25]. Henry de Bolde, Knt., was alive on 20 Jul .
1497 [see Beamont MSS ~ MS 599] but VCH Lancaster 3:405 states that he was
dead by 1497 as well."

I don't know what I am doing wrong that I can't find that marriage record Todd speaks of here.

Marianne Dillow

----- Original Message -----
From: marlow...@frontier.com
To: GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:35:39 PM
Subject: Re: Dulcia (Alice) Savage and Sir Henry Bold Lineage

Your right I just forgot to post the link on the 1580 Cheshire Visitation. . According to that chart it does not go to Edward I or Henry III.

On this. it looks like in the Bold family there are two Henry Bold's.. one older and mine is probably the younger one although it mentions more than one Richard Bold also. But I am not sure at this point.

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=41356

This seems rather confusing to me as I haven't studied my Bold or Gerard lines that well yet as I have concentrated on the others.

I google and have seen Todd Whitesides postings as I think he descends from my Martha Eltonhead's sister Jane Eltonhead who married Cuthbert Fenwick who lived in St. Mary's Co, Maryland although I have never met him or corresponded with him. The last posting I saw from him was in 2005 on some of this

[Wjhonson]

This Beaumont MSS possibly is unpublished.
That would explain why you can't find it.
It's probably just repeeated in the VCH which would then be *your* source, since you haven't seen the MSS

[marlow...@frontier.com]

Well, that is all I have seen Todd post on it. I don't know if he works on this anymore or not.

Marianne Dillow

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wjhonson" <wjho...@aol.com>
To: marlow...@frontier.com, GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 12:09:28 AM
Subject: Re: Dulcia (Alice) Savage and Sir Henry Bold Lineage

This Beaumont MSS possibly is un published.
That would explain w hy you can't find it.
It's p robably just repeeated in the VCH which would then be *your* source, since you haven't seen the MSS

[marlow...@frontier.com]

I found this by Todd Whitesides on the Bold wi ves.. Marianne Dillow


"John de Bolde (d. 1436), Knt., sheriff of Lancashire, bailiff of Leyland
Hundred, constable of Conwy Castle , was a party to the marriage settlement dated
21 Apr . 1405 of his son Richard with "Elayn," daughter of Gilbert de
Halsale. Elena was represented by her brother Henry de Halsale (d. 1422/3),
Archdeacon of Chester. For details see Beamont MSS ~ MS 546. This Richard de Bolde
died v.p. by 1 Feb . 1432/3 [see Beamont MSS ~ MS 563]. Elena was alive as
late as 17 Jul . 1469 [see Beamont MSS ~ MS 583].

In VCH Lancaster 3:405 it is stated that Richard and Elena's son and heir
was Henry Bold, and that he was alive as late as 1466 when he served on a North
Wales commission. His widow is stated to have been Grace. Was she the
mother of Henry's son and heir? If so, does anyone know her identity? If not,
does anyone know who was?

Henry de Bolde of Bold was a party to the 25 Jun . 1439 marriage settlement
of his son Richard with Katherine, daughter of Richard de Bolde of Chester [see
Beamont MSS ~ MS 567]. Richard Bold was made a knight by Thomas Lord
Stanley in Scotland on 24 Jul . 1482 [see Shaw's The Knights of England 2:19]. His
wife Lady Katherine was a widow by Mar. 2 Hen. VII [see Beamont MSS ~ MS
592].

Henry de Bolde, Knt., of Bold with his son Richard were both parties to the
20 Oct . 1464 marriage settlement of Richard's son Henry with Dulcie, daughter
of John de Savage, Esq. [see Beamont MSS ~ MS 579]. This younger Henry Bold
was made a knight on 16 Jun . 1487 at the battle of Stoke-on-Trent [see
Shaw's The Knights of England 2:25]. Henry de Bolde, Knt., was alive on 20 Jul .
1497 [see Beamont MSS ~ MS 599] but VCH Lancaster 3:405 states that he was
dead by 1497 as well.

Henry de Bolde's son and heir Richard died on 16 Nov . 1528 and his IPM
[abstracted in VCH Lancaster 3:405] details the provisions of his will, and
repeats his intention to be buried with his parents in the church at Farnworth and
his executors were to provide for a priest to sing in a chapel on the north
side of the church. The probate of his will was recorded on 19 Jan . 1528/9
with the executors being his widow Lady Margaret, his brother(in-law) Thomas
Gerrard, Esq., of Ince, and two clerks Thomas Hatton & Nicholas Taylor [see
Beamont MSS ~ MS 620]. On 23 Jun . 1490 Richard Bolde, Esq., son of Henry Bolde,
Knt., was a party with William Gerard, Esq., of Ince to the marriage
settlement of Matilda, daughter of Henry Bolde, Knt., and Thomas, son of William
Gerard, Esq. [see Beamont MSS ~ MS 594]. On 18 Aug . 1503 Richard Bolde, Esq.,
was a party to the marriage settlement of his sister Agnes with Henry, son and
heir of Nicholas Blundell of Crosby......by Todd Whitesides ".

[Wjhonson]

Here is VCH Lancs 3:405

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=41356

[marlow...@frontier.com]

Ha ! I posted that in my previous postings among the other stuff. :)

[Wjhonson]

The "n98" stands for "Note 98"
So that's a note within the source.

[marlow...@frontier.com]

Every time I google the whole thing Google wants to give me the state of Massachusetts. LOL ! Thanks on the 98 note.

Marianne Dillow


----- Original Message -----
From: "Wjhonson" <wjho...@aol.com>
To: marlow...@frontier.com, GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com

[Wjhonson]

Did you actually post the link itself?

-----Original Message-----
From: marlowest155 <marlow...@frontier.com>
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL <GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thu, Apr 11, 2013 10:49 pm
Subject: Re: Dulcia (Alice) Savage and Sir Henry Bold Lineage

Ha ! I posted that in my previous postings among the other stuff. :)

Marianne Dillow

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wjhonson" <wjho...@aol.com>
To: marlow...@frontier.com, GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 12:44:58 AM
Subject: Re: Dulcia (Alice) Savage and Sir Henry Bold Lineage

Here is VCH Lancs 3:405

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=41356

-----Original Message-----
From: marlowest155 <marlow...@frontier.com>
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL <GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thu, Apr 11, 2013 10:24 pm
Subject: Re: Dulcia (Alice) Savage and Sir Henry Bold Lineage

Well, that is all I have seen Todd post on it. I don't know if he works on this
anymore or not.

Marianne Dillow

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wjhonson" < wjho...@aol.com >
To: marlow...@frontier.com , GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com Sent: Friday, April
12, 2013 12:09:28 AM
Subject: Re: Dulcia (Alice) Savage and Sir Henry Bold Lineage

This Beaumont MSS possibly is un published.
That would explain w hy you can't find it.
It's p robably just repeeated in the VCH which would then be *your* source,
since you haven't seen the MSS

-----Original Message-----
From: marlowest155 < marlow...@frontier.com >
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL < GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com >
Sent: Thu, Apr 11, 2013 10:00 pm
Subject: Re: Dulcia (Alice) Savage and Sir Henry Bold Lineage

This was posted bt Todd Whitesides but every time I google for it , it doesn't
show up on the marriage record of Dulcia. (Alice) Bold

"Henry de Bolde, Knt., of Bold with his son Richard were both parties to the
20 Oct . 1464 marriage settlement of Richard's son Henry with Dulcie, daughter
of John de Savage, Esq. [see Beamont MSS ~ MS 579]. This younger Henry Bold
was made a knight on 16 Jun . 1487 at the battle of Stoke-on-Trent [see
Shaw's The Knights of England 2:25]. Henry de Bolde, Knt., was alive on 20 Jul .



1497 [see Beamont MSS ~ MS 599] but VCH Lancaster 3:405 states that he was
dead by 1497 as well."

I don't know what I am doing wrong that I can't find that marriage record Todd
speaks of here.

Marianne Dillow

----- Original Message -----

From: marlow...@frontier.com To: GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com Sent: Thursday,
April 11, 2013 11:35:39 PM

Subject: Re: Dulcia (Alice) Savage and Sir Henry Bold Lineage

Your right I just forgot to post the link on the 1580 Cheshire Visitation. .
According to that chart it does not go to Edward I or Henry III.

On this. it looks like in the Bold family there are two Henry Bold's.. one older


and mine is probably the younger one although it mentions more than one Richard
Bold also. But I am not sure at this point. http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=41356
This seems rather confusing to me as I haven't studied my Bold or Gerard lines
that well yet as I have concentrated on the others.

I google and have seen Todd Whitesides postings as I think he descends from my
Martha Eltonhead's sister Jane Eltonhead who married Cuthbert Fenwick who lived
in St. Mary's Co, Maryland although I have never met him or corresponded with
him. The last posting I saw from him was in 2005 on some of this

Marianne Dillow

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wjhonson" < wjho...@aol.com >

To: marlow...@frontier.com , GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com Sent: Thursday, April
11, 2013 11:15:22 PM

Subject: Re: Dulcia (Alice) Savage and Sir Henry Bold Lineage

It's always useful to others readings to post the exact link, so they don't all
have to hunt it down every time it's mentioned.

The reason she is called Dulcia Alice is reve aled by this link, since it
mention s an Alice, in a prior generation as the wife of *a * Sir Henry Bold.

Either this Vis is wrong, or there were *two* marriages of a Miss Savage to a
Sir Henry Bolde. Which requires then *two* Sir Henry Bolde 's since these
marriages obviously are decades apart.

B y the way "Dulcia" means "Sweetie" and so perhaps is not a proper name at all.



Someone needs to find that marriage settlement and quote it.

-----Original Message-----

From: marlowest155 < marlow...@frontier.com >
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL < GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com >
Sent: Thu, Apr 11, 2013 9:06 pm
Subject: Re: Dulcia (Alice) Savage and Sir Henry Bold Lineage

Thanks Will. But that is the same Savage chart I posted on In the Visitation of
Cheshire 1580. I should have posted that link. I guess there are so many John
Savages it will never get straightened out. I don't claim lineages if they can't



be proven by records. Too many people do that. To me it is a theory if it can't
be proven by records.

Thanks anyway. I appreciate it.

Marianne Dillow


----- Original Message -----
From: "Wjhonson" < wjho...@aol.com >

To: marlow...@frontier.com , GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com Sent: Thursday, April
11, 2013 10:29:41 PM

[marlow...@frontier.com]

Yes, it was buried in the other stuff I posted with it... Marianne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wjhonson" <wjho...@aol.com>
To: marlow...@frontier.com, GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 12:52:34 AM
Subject: Re: Dulcia (Alice) Savage and Sir Henry Bold Lineage

Did you actually post the l ink itself?

[Derek Howard]

On Friday, April 12, 2013 6:59:10 AM UTC+2, marlow...@frontier.com wrote:
> This was posted bt Todd Whitesides but every time I google for it , it doesn't show up on the marriage record of Dulcia. (Alice) Bold
>
> "Henry de Bolde, Knt., of Bold with his son Richard were both parties to the
> 20 Oct . 1464 marriage settlement of Richard's son Henry with Dulcie, daughter
> of John de Savage, Esq. [see Beamont MSS ~ MS 579]. This younger Henry Bold
> was made a knight on 16 Jun . 1487 at the battle of Stoke-on-Trent [see
> Shaw's The Knights of England 2:25]. Henry de Bolde, Knt., was alive on 20 Jul .
> 1497 [see Beamont MSS ~ MS 599] but VCH Lancaster 3:405 states that he was
> dead by 1497 as well."
>
> I don't know what I am doing wrong that I can't find that marriage record Todd speaks of here.
>
> Marianne Dillow

BEAMONT MSS, (held at Warrington Library, Museum and Archives Service),
MS 579 1464
Contents:
1 Henry Bold, kt, and son Richard
2? Dulcie, daughter of John de [? Savage] esq and wife of Henry Bold, son of Richard
Grant from 1 to 2, for life of 2, of land in Bold (specified and tenants named). Remainders given.
Witnesses: Peter de Legh, kt, Richard Kyghley and William Irlond esqs
20 Oct 1464
Latin; 2 seal tags only
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/A2A/records.aspx?cat=019-beamont&cid=6-280&kw=Bold%20Savage#6-280

Derek Howard

[marlow...@frontier.com]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Derek Howard" <dho...@skynet.be>
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Cc: GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 6:24:55 AM
Subject: Re: Dulcia (Alice) Savage and Sir Henry Bold Lineage

Thank you Derek,

I have never used anything like this to get a record and really didn't know what I was doing.