ROBERT CT of FLANDERS/dau GERTRUDE of FLANDERS
Diane Andreasen
-----Original Message-----
From: Diane Andreasen <unic...@bigpond.com>
To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Date: Tuesday, 20 October 1998 16:38
Subject: GERTRUDE of FLANDERS
>Does anyone happen to know if Gertrude of Flanders (dau. of Robert I Count
>of Flanders and Artois) b 1070 d 1117 m Henrich III Count of Louvain b 1050
>d 1095, had a dau. Adelheid of Louvain b c 1094 d aft 1158 and m Simon I
>Duke of Lorraine b 1077 d 1139?? And did they, in fact, have a son
>Matthaeus I Duke of Lorraine b 1120 d 1176.
>
>Thanks for any info.
>
>Diane
>
Leo van de Pas
In the books by the Prince von Isenburg, volume II, there is a remark that
there were four daughters but no names or other details.
Leo van de Pas
John Carmi Parsons
Henry III of Louvain, are the _Genealogia ducum Brabantiae heredum
Franciae_, ed. G. Waitz in *Monumenta Germaniae Historica*, Scriptores 25
(Hannover, 1880), p. 390, and the _Chronica Alberici monachi Trium
Fontium_, ed. P. Scheffer-Boichorst, also in *MGH* Scriptores 23
(Hannover, 1874), p. 871. Neither chronicle gives names for the 4
daughters Gertrude bore Henry and the only comment given is the
_Genealogia's_ remark that one of the four was a great-grandmother of
Frederick Barbarossa's wife, Beatrix of Burgundy. It was long thought
that this unknown daughter was to be identified with the wife of one of
the counts of Burgundy (i.e., the Franche-Comte') but more recently she
has been identified as Adelaide, wife of the duke of Lorraine, as in Ms
Andreasen's original post. I believe the first time I came across this
corrected descent was in _Die Ahnen Konradins_ (1970).
There is reason to believe at least one other of the 4 daughters married
and had issue. In an undated letter 1172 X 1190, Gertrude's descendant
Count Philip of Flanders addressed Count John I of Ponthieu as his kinsman
(*cognatus*--this term *can* signify brother-in-law, but the marriages of
both Philip and John are well documented and this was not the case, so
there must have been some blood relationship between them). The only way
I have been able to account for such a kinship between these two men would
be to assume that Count John's mother Ida, whose parentage is not known,
was in some way a descendant of Gertrude of Flanders. As the issue of her
second marriage, to duke Thiery II of Lorraine are well known, it seems
likely that the link came through Gertrude's first marriage. Ida could
not have been a daughter of that marriage, but she could have been a
granddaughter. As no link has ever been noted between the counts of
Ponthieu and the dukes of Lorraine, I would think that another of
Gertrude's daughters by Henry would have been the more likely ancestress,
though neither the name nor the marriage of that daughter has yet been
established. Certainly the counts of Ponthieu did inherit some rights in
Flanders and a descent from Gertrude would easily account for this. See
my article, "The Origins of English Administration in Ponthieu: An
Unnoticed Document of 1280," *Mediaeval Studies*, 50 (1988), 371-403, esp.
385 and note 65.
John Parsons