CP Error: Ferrers (was: Royal Genealogy Question Agnes de Ferres/Charlemagne)
Chris Phillips
I posted last week on the question of whether Agnes, the wife of Robert de
Muscegros (d.1280) was the mother of Robert's daughter Hawise, who married
John, Lord Ferrers
of Chartley, (d.1312), a potential Complete Peerage correction suggested by
Douglas Richardson.
To recap, the Complete Peerage concluded that it was "obviously impossible"
that Agnes was the daughter of William, Earl of Derby, (John Ferrers'
grandfather) by his second wife Margaret de Quency, as "the usual account"
has it, because (assuming Hawise was Agnes' daughter) this would make her
the first cousin of her husband.
But in the face of clear evidence that Agnes was a descendant of Margaret de
Quency, it seems preferable to conclude that she was not Hawise's mother (I
haven't seen any evidence that she was, although she was certainly married
to Hawise's father within 2-3 years of Hawise's birth).
This leaves open the question of Agnes' parentage, for which I've seen two
conflicting pieces of evidence:
(i) In a charter given when she was a widow, as lady of Chinnor,
Oxfordshire, concerning a rent in Sydenham [in Chinnor], Roger de Quincy is
called her "grandfather", in Loyd and Stenton's edition of "Sir Christopher
Hatton's Book of Seals". This would make Agnes the daughter of William, Earl
of Derby, and Margaret de Quency.
(ii) In the Hundred Rolls, vol.2 p.783 (7 Edward I), a jury finds that
Robert de Muscegros had 2/3 of the manor of Chinnor in free marriage with
Agnes, the daughter of Robert of Derby, Earl Ferrers. This would make Agnes
the granddaughter of William, Earl of Derby and Margaret de Quency.
The second version seems to have been generally dismissed. Loyd and Stenton
dismiss it on the evidence of Agnes' charter, and on the grounds that this
would make Hawise the niece of her husband. But if we conclude that Hawise
was not Agnes' daughter, the second objection doesn't apply.
On chronology, it looks possible for Agnes to be either a daughter of
William, or a daughter of his son Robert.
I suppose Agnes' own charter should be preferred to the finding of a jury,
but I wondered whether it could be possible to reconcile the two. Presumably
the word in the charter translated as "grandfather" is "avus". In R.E.
Latham's "Revised Medieval Latin Word-List" the only meaning given for
"avus" is "grandfather". But two smaller Latin dictionaries/word lists I
have give an alternative translation of "ancestor". If the word used in the
charter were "avus", and if this could be translated in the looser sense,
both the sources mentioned above could be brought into agreement.
I'd be grateful for any comments on whether "avus" could be used in this
looser sense in a charter of the 13th century.
Chris Phillips
Patricia Junkin
manor of Sooth Charford, La Hyde, (Hants); Southoe (Hunt.); Chinnor (Oxon.)
late of Alan la Zouche; Chadstone, Castle Ashby; Grendon (Nhants.),
Braunston, Stoke Or, Rutland
1296 held 1/3 pte. service for Lokeris. He was He is lord of S. Hoo,
Wincestre, Eynesbury, Caldecote, Hardwick and Berkford, (Hunts.) Chinnor,
Sydenham, Ocle and Tythorp. He was the son of Elena de Quincy.
I will appreciate any help in finding how this came into the hands of Agnes.
And how does it occur that William Lovell in 1455 held pte. knight's fee of
Oliver la Zouche at Chynore?
Thank you.
Pat
----------
>From: "Chris Phillips" <cgp...@cgp100.dabsol.co.uk>
>To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
>Subject: Re: CP Error: Ferrers (was: Royal Genealogy Question Agnes de
Ferres/Charlemagne)
>Date: Sun, Dec 2, 2001, 9:09 AM
Chris Phillips
> I am particularly interested in Chinnor/Chynore. Oliver la Zouche held
> manor of Sooth Charford, La Hyde, (Hants); Southoe (Hunt.); Chinnor
(Oxon.)
> late of Alan la Zouche; Chadstone, Castle Ashby; Grendon (Nhants.),
> Braunston, Stoke Or, Rutland
> 1296 held 1/3 pte. service for Lokeris. He was He is lord of S. Hoo,
> Wincestre, Eynesbury, Caldecote, Hardwick and Berkford, (Hunts.) Chinnor,
> Sydenham, Ocle and Tythorp. He was the son of Elena de Quincy.
> I will appreciate any help in finding how this came into the hands of
Agnes.
> And how does it occur that William Lovell in 1455 held pte. knight's fee
of
> Oliver la Zouche at Chynore?
The Zouches held 1/3 of the manor, and Agnes held the other 2/3. This
division into thirds reflects the division of the lands of Roger de Quency,
Earl of Winchester (d.1264), who had previously held the manor, between his
three daughters and coheirs, Margaret, wife of William, Earl of Derby (the
mother - or just possibly grandmother? - of the Agnes we are discussing),
Elizabeth/Isabel, wife of Alexander, Earl of Buchan, and Helen, wife of Sir
Alan la Zouche (Complete Peerage vol.12, pt 2, p.753). The Victoria County
History, Oxfordshire, vol.8, p.55, covers Chinnor. This article comments
that Elizabeth's portion seems somehow to have come to Agnes by teh late
1260s.
I'm afraid I can't help with William Lovell in 1455, but the Victoria County
History probably will, if you can lay our hands on a copy.
Chris Phillips
Rosie Bevan
I just happen to have the section on Ashby David handy from VCH
Northamptonshire, v 3 , p. 232. It doesn't answer your questions but
provides a bit of background information.
"David son of William (Ashby) appears to have been slain at Evesham in 1265
and in the following year the king made a grant to Isabel his widow, and her
children, from David's lands at Ashby, Grendon and Chadstone, extended at
L89 11s 9d a year, which had been given to Imbert Guy. David had apparently
mortgaged this holding to Moses the Jew of London whose son Elias in 1267
confirmed to Alan la Zouche a yearly fee of L124 and a debt of L100 in which
David de Ashby had been bound. This resulted in an inquisition two years
later between Isabel, daughter of Stephen, son and heir of David de Ashby,
and Alan la Zouche, concerning David's estate at the time of the war and the
battle of Evesham. That the property was confirmed to Alan is clear from the
facts that in 1276 his widow Ellen had view of frankpledge in Ashby and in
1284 her son Oliver held of John de Hastings the fee in Ashby and Grendon.
Before 1306 Oliver la Zouche had enfeoffed Walter de Langton, Bishop of
Coventry and Lichfield, treasurer and chief minister of Edward I, who in
that year received licence to crenellate the house he was then building at
Ashby David.
Cheers
Rosie