Marguerite de Monchâlons

[Dulcinée]

In Europäische Stammtafeln Band XII Tafel 32, the parents of Marguerite de Montchâlons, wife of Nicolas de Barbançon are shown as Jacques II and Jeanne de Hondschoote. However, in Tafel 137, her parents are indicated as Jacques II and Elisabeth de Melier. I saw that Isabelle de Mellier (Melier, Mellier, Marliers,Malier,Marliere,Maslier,Meslier) is mentionned in some secondary sources as the wife of Jacques de Montchâlons but the couple doesn't seem to have a daughter named Marguerite. As for Jeanne de Hondschoote, I haven't seen elsewhere a Jeanne married to a Jacques de Montchâlons. Does anyone have more info on Marguerite de Montchâlons and her parents?

Dulcinée

[Peter Stewart]

On 23/02/2017 3:30 AM, Dulcinée wrote:
> In Europäische Stammtafeln Band XII Tafel 32, the parents of Marguerite de Montchâlons, wife of Nicolas de Barbançon are shown as Jacques II and Jeanne de Hondschoote. However, in Tafel 137, her parents are indicated as Jacques II and Elisabeth de Melier. I saw that Isabelle de Mellier (Melier, Mellier, Marliers,Malier,Marliere,Maslier,Meslier) is mentionned in some secondary sources as the wife of Jacques de Montchâlons but the couple doesn't seem to have a daughter named Marguerite. As for Jeanne de Hondschoote, I haven't seen elsewhere a Jeanne married to a Jacques de Montchâlons. Does anyone have more info on Marguerite de Montchâlons and her parents?
>
>

Can you let us know the sources cited for these two tables in ES XII?

According to Maximilien Melleville, Jacques II had two sons, Gobert and
Jacques, by a wife whose name is unknown, and perhaps also a daughter
Marguerite who in 1322 occurs as widow of Jean, sire de Harcigny.

Apart from Melleville's study, the bibliography by Gaston Saffroy does
not list any other work on this family.

Peter Stewart

[Dulcinée]

Le mercredi 22 février 2017 11:30:42 UTC-5, Dulcinée a écrit :
> In Europäische Stammtafeln Band XII Tafel 32, the parents of Marguerite de Montchâlons, wife of Nicolas de Barbançon are shown as Jacques II and Jeanne de Hondschoote. However, in Tafel 137, her parents are indicated as Jacques II and Elisabeth de Melier. I saw that Isabelle de Mellier (Melier, Mellier, Marliers,Malier,Marliere,Maslier,Meslier) is mentionned in some secondary sources as the wife of Jacques de Montchâlons but the couple doesn't seem to have a daughter named Marguerite. As for Jeanne de Hondschoote, I haven't seen elsewhere a Jeanne married to a Jacques de Montchâlons. Does anyone have more info on Marguerite de Montchâlons and her parents?
>
> Dulcinée

I erroneously wrote that the tables were in Band XII. They are in fact in Band XIII (Les familles féodales de France).
The sources for the Barbançon (tables 27-31 A and 32-33) are grouped together and it is hard to tell which one might mention Jeanne de Hondschoote as mother of Marguerite in Tafel 32.
The studies that focus on the Jeumont-Werchin branch are: Albert Croques, Roubaix, Les Seigneurs et la Seigneurie, Lille 1931, pp 67-68 and Abbé Théodore Leuridan, in : Société d’études de la province de Cambrai, Bulletin XXX, Dünkirchen-Lille 1930, pp 181-186.

ES also cites works on the main line or not specified as belonging to a specific branch:

• Lüttich, Archives de l’État: Collection Lefort, 1,2 fol. 229ss, Trophées de Brabant p 619
• Paris : Bibliothèque Nationale Ms.fr.31892 (Trésor généalogique de Dom Villevieille)
• T. A. Bernier, Notices sur Barbançon, in Documents et Rapports de la société paléontologique et archéologique de Charleroi IV, Mons 1871, pp 388-398
• Barbançon, in : Annales du Cercle archéologique de Mons XXX, 1901, pp 267-270
• Vicomte de Ghellinck d’Elseghem, Les sires de Pottes-sur-l’Escaut, Gent 1899, pp 19-22
• Octave le Maire,, in : L’Intermédiaire des généalogistes, Brüssel 1961, pp 122-125; op.cit. 1962, pp 81; 103; op. cit. 1963, p.7
• Documents et Rapports de la Société paléontologique et archéologique de Charleroi XXIV, 1901, p.386
• Pierre Congar Jean Lecaillon et Jacques Rousseau, Sedan et le pays sedanais, Paris 1969, pp. 91-95
• Chartes et Cartulaires des duchés de Brabant et de Limbourg, IIme partie Cartulaires, Tome II (1312-1383), Brüssel 1962, p. 68
• Gabriel Wymans Inventaire des archives de l’abbaye de Saint-Feuillen du Roeulx, Brüssel 1975
• J.C. Schoonbrodt, Inventaire analytique et chronologique des chartes du chapitre de Saint-Lambert à Liège I, Lüttich 1863, Nr 104
• Inventaire des archives de la Famille Lalaing, Brüssel 1970, p.246
• Épitaphier du Vieux Paris I, Paris 1890, p. 61
• Abbé Théodore Leuridan, Épigraphe du département du Nord, in Société d’études de la province de Cambrai. Mémoires IX, Lille 1904. pp 735 s; op. cit. X, Lille 1905, Avelin; op. cit. XI, Lille 1906, p.1122; op. cit XXII, Lille 1927, pp 464; 492
• Mitteilungen der Westdeutschen Gesellschaft für Familienkunde Band IV, coll 209s

The sources for table 137 (Montchâlons) and 138 (Bove) are presented together:
• Comte Maxime de Sars, Le Laonnois féodal I, Paris 1924, pp 154-157; II, Paris 1926, pp 421: 464s; III, Paris 1929, pp 348ss; 502s; 655-660
• William Mendel Newman, Les seigneurs de Nesle en Picardie I, Paris 1971, pp 167ss
• chev de Courcelles, Histoire généalogique et héraldique des Pairs de France XI, Paris 1831, pp 56-59
• Paris Bibliothèque Nationale ms.fr.31943 f.33r – 34r (Montchâlons); ms. Fr. 31900 f. 158v – 159 v (Bove) (Collection de Dom Villevieille) (AS)
• Gaston Robert, Documents relatifs au Comté de Porcien 1134-1464, Monaco-Paris 1935, p XII; Nr LXVII
• Revue de Champagne et de Brie XXI, 1896, pp 600s
• Hélène Millet, Les chanoines du chapitre cathédral de Laon 1272-1412, Rom 1982, p 337 (Collection de l’École française de Rome 56)


Finally, in the Cartulaire de Royallieu, there are letters mentioning a Marguerite de Montchâlons widow of Jacques or Jacquemard de Mauregny probably linked to the Monchâlons himself who married a Jean de Herbigny (Harcigny?). I suspect that there is some confusion between this Jacquemard and Jacques II de Montchâlons.

Dulcinée

[Peter Stewart]

Ah, the dreaded, lazy vice of lumping sources together ... Schwennicke's
tables are printed with acreages of blank paper around them that could
so easily have contained specific footnotes.

All I can discover from those above which appear to be relevant and
available online is that Nicolas de Barbençon, seigneur of Jeumont (died
1316) is said to have married a Marguerite de Monthablon - I wonder if
someone (possibly Dom Villevieille) identified her as Marguerite de
Montchâlons. The only lady of the latter name I can find documented is
the one in the cartulary of Royallieu (living in August 1322 as the wife
of Jean de Herbigny), who was clearly not the widow of Nicolas.

Peter Stewart