Mother of Irene Angelina, Queen of Germany
Tony Hoskins
Curious what is currently thought as to the identity of the mother of
Irene Angelina, Queen of Germany and Sicily (d.1208), daughter of
Alexius II Angelus, Emperor of Byzantium. _Wikipedia_ states:
"The identity of Isaac's first wife is unknown, but her name, Herina,
is found on the necrology of Speyer Cathedral, where their daughter
Irene is interred. His wife Herina may have been a member of the
Palaeologus family; she was dead or divorced by 1185, when Isaac
remarried. Their children were:
Euphrosyne Angelina, a nun.
Irene Angelina, married first to Roger III of Sicily, and secondly to
Philip of Swabia
Alexius IV Angelus
By his second wife, Margaret of Hungary, Isaac had two sons:
Ioannes Angelus
Manuel Angelus"
----
At the very least, is it safe to state that "Herina" is a variant of
"Irene"? What about her possibly being "Palaiologina"?
Thanks.
Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404
Tony Hoskins
Byzantium".
>>> "Tony Hoskins" <hos...@sonoma.lib.ca.us> 12/13/05 04:34PM >>>
John P. Ravilious
Surely no reason to apologize - discussing things already
discussed is the essence of history (certainly of medieval genealogy,
anyway).
From the not-too-distant past, the following extracts are
pertinent. The upshot seems to be, she may have been of the
Palaeologi, but certainty is not present. I believe this particular
discussion was the source of the Wikipedia article.
Cheers,
John
_________________________________________
SGM thread, <wife of Isaac Angelus>
16 August 2005 et seq.
_________________________________________
Don Stone
Aug 17, 9:13 pm show options
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From: Don Stone <don.st...@verizon.net> - Find messages by this author
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 02:13:08 GMT
Local: Wed, Aug 17 2005 9:13 pm
Subject: Re: wife of Isaac Angelus
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Akrogiali wrote:
> It is highly questionable if his first wife was Greek (Byzantine Lady). My
> guess is that she was not and was baptised using an Orthodox name.
An article by Rudolf Hiestand, "Die Erste Ehe Isaaks II Angelus und
Seine Kinder" in _Jahrbuch der Osterreichischen Byzantinistik_ 47
(1997): 199-208, gives this first wife of Isaac Angelus (and mother
of Eirene-Maria, who m. 2nd Philipp of Swabia) as Eirene.
This comes from the necrology notices of Speyer Cathedral,
which name the Empress [Irene-] Maria, her parents Isaac and
Irene, her elder sister Euphrosyne (named, following the
Byzantine pattern, after her paternal grandmother) and brother
Manuel.
Hiestand's article is of special interest because it explores the
hypothesis that Eirene or Irene, first wife of Isaac II, is a member
of the Palaiologos family, perhaps the daughter of Georgios
Palaiologos Komnenodoukas, megas hetaireiarches (Grand Heteriarque).
This is based on a reference to Andronikos Palaiologos (probable son
of Georgios) as beloved "gambros" [brother-in-law or son-in-law,
though the former is more likely] of Emp. Isaac II in a document
(from 1191) printed in A. Papadopoulos-Kerameus's _Analekta ..._, II,
Petersburg, 1894, p. 362. Unfortunately, the genealogy of the early
Palaiologoi is somewhat murky; Lindsay Brook's "The Byzantine
Ancestry of the Prince of Wales," _The Genealogist_ 2 (1981):
3-51, gives (p. 22) Andronikos as son rather than brother of Alexios,
son of Georgios, and _The Oxford Dictionary of Byzantium_, 1991,
v. 2, p. 1558, gives Andronikos as son-in-law of Alexios. In any
case, _The Doukai_ by Demetrios I. Polemis, 1968, asserts (top of
p. 156) that Georgios had a son Alexios by an unidentified wife.
In a posting dated 1 March 2003 Pierre Aronax expressed a plausible
reason
for doubting this proposed Palaiologos connection, but the matter seems
to
be still somewhat "up in the air."
-- Don Stone
_________________________________________
Peter Stewart
Aug 20, 9:44 pm show options
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From: "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stew...@msn.com> - Find messages by this
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Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 02:44:42 GMT
Local: Sat, Aug 20 2005 9:44 pm
Subject: Re: wife of Isaac Angelus
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<Nichol_st...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1124218153....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
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> "Paul K Davis" wrote:
>> There seems to be a belief, in several internet databases, that the wife
>> of
>> Byzantine emperor Isaac II Angelus, and mother-in-law of Philip of
>> Swabia,
>> was a daughter of Byzantine emperor Andronikos I Komnenos. I have not
>> found any support for this in any of the library sources I have
>> consulted.
>> Do any of you know if this is wishful thinking, or an uncertain
>> possibility, or something more solid that I simply have not found a good
>> source for yet?
>> -- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd...@earthlink.net]
> There are several previous discussions of the wife of Isaac Angelos in
> the archives of this newsgroup. One is titled "Philip of Swabia 's
> mother-in-law" and another is "First Wife of Isaac II Angelos". It
> would appear, based on the necrology notices of Irene Angelina, the
> wife of Philip of Swabia, that her parents were named Isaac and Irene.
> This would be unusual in the Greek tradition, naming a daughter after a
> mother.
The necrology notice in question is from Speyer cathedral, so the name
"Herina" given for Maria/Eirene Angelina's mother is not from a
Byzantine
source. It was perhaps assumed by the writer from knowledge that Eirene
had
been Maria's original name, rather than from definite information about
her
mother.
Peter Stewart
_________________________________________
"Paul K Davis"
Aug 21, 5:19 pm show options
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From: pkd...@earthlink.net ("Paul K Davis") - Find messages by this
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Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 22:19:03 +0000 (UTC)
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Nevertheless, in the case at hand, we have an Irene whose mother was
Irene.
The proposition that started this commentary was that the mother was
probably non-Greek to explain this, but the father was certainly Greek
(Byzantine), so I'm not sure a this would work. I'm somewhat inclined
to
think that one of the ladies changed her name during the course of
life,
after the birth of the daughter, but this is just a guess.
Concerning the original question, it appears we have essentially no
information on Irene the mother's ancestry. The conjecture that she
was a
Palaiologos has, at best, half a scrap of evidence for it, since
Andronikos
Palaiologos' brother-in-law relationship to Isaac II can also be
explained
by Andronikos marrying a sister of Isaac, which is what Sturdza shows.
Thanks for all the discussion of the question.
-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd...@earthlink.net]
____________________________________________
Peter Stewart
Aug 21, 6:29 pm show options
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From: "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stew...@msn.com> - Find messages by this
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Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 23:29:51 GMT
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Subject: Re: wife of Isaac Angelus
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""Paul K Davis"" <pkd...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:410-2200580...@earthlink.net...
> Nevertheless, in the case at hand, we have an Irene whose mother was
> Irene.
No, we have a woman baptised Eirene in Constantinople, and renamed
Maria on
marrying in the west, whose mother having lived and died in the east
was
posthumously called Herina in Germany, on unknown authority or perhaps
by
mistake & from no authority at all.
This is not proof of anything to set against the overwhelming evidence
that
Byzantines did NOT give a parent's name to a child. If the first wife
of
Isaakios Angelos was a Palaiologina as conjectured, she may also have
been
daughter of an Eirene, passing her own mother's name to her second
daughter.
But again, there is no proof.
Peter Stewart