patronymics and DSH's Polish jokes
Rafal Prinke
Renia Simmonds <PSim...@cwcom.net> wrote:
>I'm not a native Polish speaker, simply repeating what I was taught by my
>father, who was. I'm sure that Rafal Prinke will be better able to explain
>the Polish way than I. I don't know whether the owna/owa as a historical
>thing, or whether it is still used.
It is still used but indeed sounds a bit archaic. It is not a patronimic
suffix in Polish - patronimics are not used in Poland as opposed to
Russia where they are part and parcel of a person's name and one uses
them addressing people one respects (including the president). The suffix
depends on gender and is -ovna for females and -ovicz for males (with
some variants).
In Polish, on the other hand, -owna is a surname suffix for unmarried
females and -owa for married ones (in this case formed from her husband's
surname). There are also other variants and not all names allow such forms
(the -ski names don't). In Czech -ova is used in both cases, even for
foreign names, so you'll see Claudia Cardinalova.
DSH is better ignored as any discussion with him is pointless. His disgusting
remarks about Poles flooding the list after your message are what you
may expect. And do not be deceived by his occassional seemingly sensible
posts. These serve to allure the unwary, only to strike them when they
least expect it. He will now surely spit venom at me with the usual
tirade - now embellished with primitive allusions to "Polish jokes"
and Poles being born bombers and murderers. It makes him feel "important"
- a true "superman". Not so difficult when one feels secure, hidden
in his Gloomy Place in the Hawaii and having made sure that his name
and address was removed from his university Web pages. One of his favourite
pastimes is finding out personal information about others and announcing
it here publicly. Like a small boy shouting from behind his big brother's
back. He is also a self-appointed moderator of the list/newsgroup, never
missing any opportuninty to point out your spelling mistakes or other
(real or imaginary) inconsistencies, in a language that oscillates between
vulgar and rococo. He never edits original messages and appends lengthy
quotations (presumably to prove his deep erudition to himself), so that
many of us will pay more for downloads.
That's Spencer (aka David Spencer Hines aka DSH). That's him.
Best regards,
Rafal
D. Spencer Hines
Sadly you have 'lost it'. You are wrong on both the facts and the
interpretations.
Apparently, as a professor you are not expected to exercise close
reading skills before sounding off from the depths of ignorance.
I never made any sort of Anti-Polish remark in my previous posts and I
shall not do so here. In fact, _au contraire_ I specifically said,
several times, that I was _not_ going to take any cheap shots of that
sort --- a caveat which you have chosen to ignore.
You, on the other hand have no aversion to taking cheap shots, as is
manifestly evident in your rampant whinings.
Perhaps you have been so warped by your Communist surroundings, during
your upbringing, that you cannot separate Fantasy from Truth. You
would not be the first European or American Academic who has fallen
into that seductive trap.
Finally, you still will not get off your rear end and initiate that
list of Polish titles, with equivalents, that you should have produced
long ago --- which is a major reason why much of what you write is of
marginal use to many serious players.
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas
Illegitimis Non Carborundum
Fortem Posce Animum
--
D. Spencer Hines --- "Probitas Laudatur et Alget" [Honesty is praised
and starves.], Decimus Junius Juvenalis (Juvenal) [c. 50 A.D.-- c.130
A.D.], _Satires, I, line 74_
Rafal Prinke <raf...@amu.edu.pl> wrote in message
news:Pine.OSF.4.10.990723...@main.amu.edu.pl...
<baldersnip>
Renia Simmonds
> Rafal,
>
> Sadly you have 'lost it'. You are wrong on both the facts and the
> interpretations.
>
> Apparently, as a professor you are not expected to exercise close
> reading skills before sounding off from the depths of ignorance.
DSH, You only seem to spout off like this during discussions on subjects
with which you have limited knowledge.
> I never made any sort of Anti-Polish remark in my previous posts and I
> shall not do so here. In fact, _au contraire_ I specifically said,
> several times, that I was _not_ going to take any cheap shots of that
> sort --- a caveat which you have chosen to ignore.
No, but you were ambiguous, as you always are, so that you can turn things
round, and insist, "was'nt me, Guv".viz:
QUOTE from DSH's nit-picking post:
Yes, this is the same David Gelernter who was 'letter bomb' targeted
by that wacko Harvard graduate who came to be called the Unabomber ---
Ted Kaczynski
David Gelernter is a Good Guy. He lost large chunks of his chest and
a major part of his hand to the explosion.
Had Gelernter called the Yale Health Center and waited for the medics
to arrive, he would have bled to death before they got there.
Instead, very angry at himself for having opened the package, he
walked the block and a half to the Center and saved his life. This is
not a sit on your bum and 'watch the electrons dance' sort of guy.
David Gelernter is Jewish, from New York City, as I recall.
Ted Kacynski is a Bad Guy.
No, Renia --- I did NOT say he was Polish.
[To Be Continued]
UNQUOTE
So, what was the point of this missive? It bore no relation to any other
post, that I saw. Was not part of a thread. Is not to do with genealogy.
Nothing medieval about it. Why did you send it, then, if it was not to
imply something that you had in mind.
> You, on the other hand have no aversion to taking cheap shots, as is
> manifestly evident in your rampant whinings.
Do you know, you could be talking about yourself?
> Perhaps you have been so warped by your Communist surroundings, during
> your upbringing, that you cannot separate Fantasy from Truth. You
> would not be the first European or American Academic who has fallen
> into that seductive trap.
What's seductive about it? The Polish are an anarchic breed. It's not
their nature to obey their neighbours. They'll do their own thing anyway.
> Finally, you still will not get off your rear end and initiate that
> list of Polish titles,
What do you want a list of Polish titles for, Mr H?
> with equivalents, that you should have produced
> long ago --- which is a major reason why much of what you write is of
> marginal use to many serious players.
And what makes you think you are a serious player, Mr Hines? A player,
yes. Serious. No.
> D. Spencer Hines
>
> <snipped all the Latin pretentiousness>
>
KHF...@aol.com
Obviously, Spencer either does not remember what he writes or he does not
have the mental facilities to recognize an ethnic dig whenhe writes one.
Read below:
In a message dated 7/23/1999 12:46:27 PM, D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu
writes:
<<I never made any sort of Anti-Polish remark in my previous posts and I
shall not do so here. >>
In a message dated 7/22/1999 11:05:42 PM, D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu
writes:
<<From a fellow who won't even reveal his actual name. Anonymous Hits and
Runs are so much easier. Par for the course. Perhaps He's Polish?>>
Patricia Strebig
D. Spencer Hines <D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu> wrote in message
news:7nad1a$pp0$1...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net...
> Rafal,
>
> >
> I never made any sort of Anti-Polish remark in my previous posts and I
> shall not do so here.
Yes, you have. I believe it was just yesterday. Your prejudice is showing.
Perhaps you should reread what you are writing before sending it.
Vance McAlister
after two years of his senseless attacks and boorish behavior that all
agreed he was better off ignored. Now only newbies interact with him
until they learn better. He has actually cleaned up his act somewhat
since then, but still can't resist semi-regular slanders. He just can't
help himself. I think I heard this group had used the same technique
before with good effect, but there are so many new posters that he has a
new field. Good luck.
Rafal Prinke <raf...@amu.edu.pl> wrote in message
news:Pine.OSF.4.10.990723...@main.amu.edu.pl...
>
D. Spencer Hines
Just imagine if _I_ had said, "If he was [sic] female, I would suggest
he suffers from PMT..."
Sacre Bleu et Mon Dieu!
You certainly had your glasses _on_ when you wrote that one. ;-)
DSH
Lux et Veritas
Renia Simmonds
thinks he's terribly important on this newsgroup. If he was female, I would
suggest he suffers from PMT, because sometimes he can be very polite and
helpful. I know he has been kicked off other lists or newsgroups, and
suggestions have been made that he should be kicked off this one. I usually
ignore him, but he has attacked me, and I must reply. I could be as vicious
as he is, but I'm not that ill-bred, and I'm easily bored, so this shouldn't
last long. I could proof-read every post he makes (his constitute almost one
quarter of the present postings I have on my system), because he thinks "God
bless proofreaders", but I can't be bothered. It would take too long.
Renia
David Zincavage
I seem to have missed the controversial remarks leading to all this,
and at this point the original correspondence is an unfindable needle
in this large haystack.
Will Mr. Hines kindly repeat any anti-Polish slurs, so that -as a
Lithuanian-- I can chivalrously defend our quondam allies in their
time of need?
Are you referring to titles like krol = king, wielki kniaz = grand
prince or grand duke, kniaz = prince or duke, margrabia = margrave,
hrabia = count, baron = baron, pan = lord or sir? or are you loking
for a list of offices?
David Zincavage BK'70
On Fri, 23 Jul 1999 08:40:19 -1000, "D. Spencer Hines"
<D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu> wrote:
>Rafal,
>Finally, you still will not get off your rear end and initiate that
>list of Polish titles, with equivalents, that you should have produced
>long ago --- which is a major reason why much of what you write is of
>marginal use to many serious players.
>
>D. Spencer Hines
>
>Lux et Veritas
>Illegitimis Non Carborundum
>Fortem Posce Animum
>--
>
>D. Spencer Hines --- "Probitas Laudatur et Alget" [Honesty is praised
>and starves.], Decimus Junius Juvenalis (Juvenal) [c. 50 A.D.-- c.130
>A.D.], _Satires, I, line 74_
>
>Rafal Prinke <raf...@amu.edu.pl> wrote in message
>news:Pine.OSF.4.10.990723...@main.amu.edu.pl...
>
><baldersnip>
>
>
D. Spencer Hines
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas
--
D. Spencer Hines --- "Probitas Laudatur et Alget" [Honesty is praised
and starves.], Decimus Junius Juvenalis (Juvenal) [c. 50 A.D.-- c.130
A.D.], _Satires, I, line 74_
David Zincavage <j...@inr.net> wrote in message
news:379c7afd....@news.inr.net...
> What class?
>
> I seem to have missed the controversial remarks leading to all this,
> and at this point the original correspondence is an unfindable
needle
> in this large haystack.
>
> Will Mr. Hines kindly repeat any anti-Polish slurs, so that -as a
> Lithuanian-- I can chivalrously defend our quondam allies in their
> time of need?
How déclassé and impossible. I'm Polish myself.
>
> Are you referring to titles like krol = king, wielki kniaz = grand
> prince or grand duke, kniaz = prince or duke, margrabia = margrave,
> hrabia = count, baron = baron, pan = lord or sir? or are you loking
> for a list of offices?
Both would be helpful. That's an _excellent_ start. Educate us in
Polish Titles and Offices, please.
Thank you kindly.
David Zincavage
Is this the source of all this? It hardly seems interesting enough.
On Mon, 26 Jul 1999 15:27:17 GMT, j...@inr.net (David Zincavage) wrote:
>Vide infra.
>You obviously have very little knowledge of either Russian or Polish,
>or any other Slavic Language --- or, indeed, Patronymics in General.
>[PIG]
>No, I did NOT say that you were pig-ignorant.
>Kay Allen has set you straight.
>No, I'll resist the impulse to make a Polish joke at your expense.
>"Looking at it from a Polish angle?"
>No, forget it.
David Zincavage
Mr. Hines apparently was a denizon of Timothy Dwight College, but has
failed to reveal his graduating class.
He is overly fond of tag lines.
Hypothetical Polish slurs may be wrong-headed or insulting or
objectionable to some, but I don't see anything declasse about them.
Not the mot juste, old boy.
The nobility of the the earlier "illustrious," and later "most
serene," Republic of Both Nations, embraced the principle of noble
equality.
There was a famous saying:
Szlachic na zagrodzie rowny wojewodzie.
The humble gentleman who owns a tiny garden patch [zagrodzie] is just
as [rowny] noble [szlachic] as the palatine governer [wojewodzie].
Titles were regarded as incompatible with this ideal, and the body of
the nobility which ruled the Polish state, resisted their wide
distribution very effectively. A modest number of families descending
from Gedymin or Rurik, were entitled to use the title of prince by
virtue of various treaties of union (Krewa 1386- Horodlo 1413- Lublin
1569 &c.]. A very small number of other titles predated the
Lithuanian Union, or were awarded for public service by Parliament.
The bulk of Polish titles were obtained abroad. A few by bribery in
earlier times. Many dishonorably by traffic with the Partitioning
Powers, in the time of the occupation of the fatherland. Such titles
ought to be regarded as disgraceful rather than as honorable
distinctions. Additionally, a number of Polish titles have honorable
origins in modern times, originating from the French Empire, Poland's
ally, or from the Holy See for defense of the Catholic faith
persecuted by Muscovite tyranny.
The terminology of the state and regional offices of Poland and
Lithuania was bilingual. Each were known by both Polish and Latin
names. Their nomenclature and functions were different from offices in
Western Europe generally, and this is, I assure you, quite a complex
and lengthy subject.
On Mon, 26 Jul 1999 06:33:37 -1000, "D. Spencer Hines"
<D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu> wrote:
>Vide infra.
>
>D. Spencer Hines
>
>Lux et Veritas
>--
>
D. Spencer Hines
equivalents for us, or not?
If you're just pontificating --- that's no help.
Rafal seems unwilling to get too deeply into this subject of noble
titles, perhaps for fear of offending his Communist academic
colleagues. He's _very_ sensitive about that. He probably wants to
get back to his study of the occult and Satanism too. Nothing
politically incorrect about those, I suppose.
We could have some fun here with Polish Genealogy --- or we could stay
confined mostly to Western Europe, with some exceptions.
It's your choice.
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas
Semper Fidelis
--
D. Spencer Hines --- "Probitas Laudatur et Alget" [Honesty is praised
and starves.], Decimus Junius Juvenalis (Juvenal) [c. 50 A.D.-- c.130
A.D.], _Satires, I, line 74_
David Zincavage <j...@inr.net> wrote in message
news:379ca007....@news.inr.net...
<snip>
taramark
Arabian proverb
>______________________________
D. Spencer Hines
I realize it may take some time, but I think it would good for us to
learn some Polish here --- at least the words appropriate to correct
titles and offices --- when we talk about our Polish Ancestors.
> were in ill-repute among the Polish szlachta. The latter is a very
> pertinent consideration.
I don't doubt that. But in Genealogy we have to give them the titles
and offices they actually held historically, right?
DSH
--
D. Spencer Hines --- "Probitas Laudatur et Alget" [Honesty is praised
and starves.], Decimus Junius Juvenalis (Juvenal) [c. 50 A.D.-- c.130
A.D.], _Satires, I, line 74_
David Zincavage <j...@inr.net> wrote in message
news:379cbbe3....@news.inr.net...
>
> I gave you Polish equivalents for all titles. Vide infra.
> I also explained why titles, other than Pan [Lord or Sir],
> were in ill-repute among the Polish szlachta. The latter is a very
> pertinent consideration.
>
> State and regional offices would be a task involving a bit of
> research. I can't just reel that information off the top of my
head.
>
> Unfortunately, we do not have a Polish genealogical inquiry upon the
> table.
David Zincavage
><snip>
>
>
Renia Simmonds
understand a word! (And sorry about the lack of diacritics and
what-have-you.) And sorry that it's post-medieval. But it is Polish. This
is my grandmother's Bogucki line. Her sister married Count Zaluski (but I
don't show them here). It seems to start with an introduction, perhaps some
sources, and then the lineage. My father couldn't translate for me, as he
was dying. And my Polish family can't translate, because they don't speak
English. It's quite frustrating! Can anybody help with any of it? And,
finally, I hope my typing renders it legible.
Herb Krzywda - W polu blekitnym - podkowa srebrna z krzyzem kawalerskim
srebrnym
we srodku i drugim bez prawego ramienia na barku. Herb bardzo dawno
powstaly z
herbu Lubicz.
Legenda: "Gdy jeden Lubicz przy majatkowym dziale brata skrzywdzil, utracil
za to
jedno ramie gorniego krzyza.
Ztad herb Krzywda. (15 familii)"
wg. Stanislaw Hr. Mieroszowski "O Heraldyce Polskiej" 1887
Stanislaw - wr. 1419 w dzien sw. Augustyna w Lornzy przywilejem Jana I
Ksiecia Mazowieckiego i Ruskiego otrzymal na wlasnosc 20 wlok ziemi,
przywilej aktykowany w Lornzy, dalej jak wyzej polio 49
Sanders - otrzymal w 1435 w srode po 3-ech Krolach w Nurze wydany i tamze
aktykowany przywlejem Boleslawa VI Kdiecia Mazowieckiego i Ruskiego 40 wlok
ziemi i lasu ksiazecego nad rzeka Kuna polozonego. Na tych 40 wlokach
powstaly folwarki nazw: Boguty-Rubiesze, Boguty -Lesne, Boguty - Milczki,
Kutylowo, Skupie.
Przeslaw (Przeczeslaw) - walcyzl za panowania Zygunta I przeciw Turkom i
Tatarom.
Maciej - podstarosta nurski 1598 r. pos. na Sejm Zygmunta III
Prokop - dziedzic dobr Boguty Wielkie i Male, Kutylowo i.t.d.-zyl za
panowania Zygmunta Aug; Henryka Walezego; Stafana Batorego
Dominik - pan na Bogutach Milczkach, ozeniony z Anna Lipska
Wojciech = 1. Ewa Sobolewska hr Slepowron
=2. Maryanna z Dobrazankowa z Piankow Bogacka hr Prawdzic
|
Dominik - Tryniszewska
pos 1648 di. Trzciny i Gogoloe
|
Fabian Jan = Dorota Czaplicka
|
Walenty
(Dziedzic Boguty-Chrosciele)
|
Nikodem = Maryanna Pistka
|
Jan = Josefa Bobrowna hr. Jastrzebiec
|
Wojciech
Adam
|
Jan ur 1773 zm 1855 Krakow = Barbara Litynska hr. Grzymala ur 1786
|
Antonii Wojciech = Alojza Piwocka (ur 1812 w Slomnikach oz w 1870 w
Tarnopolu zm 1881 we Lwowie
|
Franciszek = Ewelina Antonowicz ur 1874 zm 1945 pulkownik dyr dep Banku
Thanks,
Renia
David Zincavage
quoting from an English language text of my own which parallels this
Polish information below.
>
>Herb Krzywda - W polu blekitnym - podkowa srebrna z krzyzem kawalerskim
>srebrnym
>we srodku i drugim bez prawego ramienia na barku
Krzywda is blasoned (more or less):
Azure, within a horseshoe Argent ensiegned with a cross pattée sans
its dexter arm, a cross patee both crosses Or. Crest: three ostrich
plumes Argent.
I have put it into the language of English blason. The Polish is a
flat description. In other words, on a blue field, you have a silver
horseshoe (points down) with a gold knight's cross inside it, and
another knight's cross missing its right arm on top of it.
>Legenda: "Gdy jeden Lubicz przy majatkowym dziale brata skrzywdzil, utracil
>za to
>jedno ramie gorniego krzyza.
>Ztad herb Krzywda. (15 familii)"
>wg. Stanislaw Hr. Mieroszowski "O Heraldyce Polskiej" 1887
says more or less:
These arms are said to have originated as an abatement of the Lubicz
arms.
It is said that one of two brothers of the Lubicz clan did wrong
[krzywda] to the other with respect to his portion of their
inheritance, and as a result half of one cross was taken from his coat
of arms and the new coat of arms was called Krzwyda [Injustice]. The
homeland of this coat of arms is probably Krzywda in Podlasie.
"The Krzywda arms are used by some 15 families."
Actually a few more than that:
Anto[u]szewisz, Augustowicz, Augustynowicz, Bajkowski, Beyd,
Bial/ojesierski, Bogucki, Chmura, Chrza~stowski, Czarnocki,
Dlakiewicz, Danowski, Daynowski, Dembowicz, Dinowski, Dobrowolski,
Doroz'yn'ski, Dun'czeski, Garlin'ski, Gawryl/kowicz, Goski,
Grochowski, Kieszkowski, Kobylin'ski, Koiszewski, L/apa, L/azen'ski,
L/azowski, L/ozin'ski, Moniuszko, Nahojowski, Pisulski, Pogorzelski,
Poleski, Polewski, Ragniewicz, Rojek, Rzewuski, San'kowski, Siennicki,
Socz[sz]ycki, Suchodolski, Szan'kowski, Saski, S'wie~cki variation,
Tarasewicz, Trzcin'ski, We~glowski, Wro'blewski, Zgorzelski,
Znaniecki. I count 51 families. Not all, of course, are recorded in
published sources, so there are certainly even more.
Of this armorial clan, Josef Felix L/asowski received the honorable
title of Baron of the French Empire, 15 AUG 1809. Kazimierz Rzewuski
received the title of Count of Austria, 21 APR 1819. Various other
members of the latter family received countly titles from Austria and
Russia.
On Tue, 27 Jul 1999 01:52:57 +0000, Renia Simmonds
<PSim...@cwcom.net> wrote:
>No Polish genealogical enquiry? OK, here's one. And, I admit it. I don't
>understand a word! (And sorry about the lack of diacritics and
>what-have-you.) And sorry that it's post-medieval. But it is Polish. This
>is my grandmother's Bogucki line. Her sister married Count Zaluski (but I
>don't show them here). It seems to start with an introduction, perhaps some
>sources, and then the lineage. My father couldn't translate for me, as he
>was dying. And my Polish family can't translate, because they don't speak
>English. It's quite frustrating! Can anybody help with any of it? And,
>finally, I hope my typing renders it legible.
>
>
>Herb Krzywda - W polu blekitnym - podkowa srebrna z krzyzem kawalerskim
>srebrnym
>we srodku i drugim bez prawego ramienia na barku. Herb bardzo dawno
>powstaly z
>herbu Lubicz.
>Legenda: "Gdy jeden Lubicz przy majatkowym dziale brata skrzywdzil, utracil
>za to
>jedno ramie gorniego krzyza.
>Ztad herb Krzywda. (15 familii)"
>wg. Stanislaw Hr. Mieroszowski "O Heraldyce Polskiej" 1887
>
Stanislaw appears on a privilege of 1419 having so much land...
>Stanislaw - wr. 1419 w dzien sw. Augustyna w Lornzy przywilejem Jana I
>Ksiecia Mazowieckiego i Ruskiego otrzymal na wlasnosc 20 wlok ziemi,
>przywilej aktykowany w Lornzy, dalej jak wyzej polio 49
>
>Sanders - otrzymal w 1435 w srode po 3-ech Krolach w Nurze wydany i tamze
>aktykowany przywlejem Boleslawa VI Kdiecia Mazowieckiego i Ruskiego 40 wlok
>ziemi i lasu ksiazecego nad rzeka Kuna polozonego. Na tych 40 wlokach
>powstaly folwarki nazw: Boguty-Rubiesze, Boguty -Lesne, Boguty - Milczki,
>Kutylowo, Skupie.
>
>Przeslaw (Przeczeslaw) - walcyzl za panowania Zygunta I przeciw Turkom i
>Tatarom.
Matthew is deputy starost of Nursk [Masovia] and is thus serving in
the Parliament of Sigismund III
>
>Maciej - podstarosta nurski 1598 r. pos. na Sejm Zygmunta III
Prokopius is the owner of the estate of Big and Little Boguty
>
>Prokop - dziedzic dobr Boguty Wielkie i Male, Kutylowo i.t.d.-zyl za
>panowania Zygmunta Aug; Henryka Walezego; Stafana Batorego
We start seeing some marriages listed below.
>
>Dominik - pan na Bogutach Milczkach, ozeniony z Anna Lipska
Wojciecjh marries (1) ES of the Slepowron arms.
(2) M of such and so of the Prawdzic arms
>Wojciech = 1. Ewa Sobolewska hr Slepowron
>=2. Maryanna z Dobrazankowa z Piankow Bogacka hr Prawdzic
>|
>Dominik - Tryniszewska
>pos 1648 di. Trzciny i Gogoloe
>|
>Fabian Jan = Dorota Czaplicka
>|
>Walenty
>(Dziedzic Boguty-Chrosciele)
>|
>Nikodem = Maryanna Pistka
>|
>Jan = Josefa Bobrowna hr. Jastrzebiec
>|
>Wojciech
>Adam
>|
>Jan ur 1773 zm 1855 Krakow = Barbara Litynska hr. Grzymala ur 1786
>|
>Antonii Wojciech = Alojza Piwocka (ur 1812 w Slomnikach oz w 1870 w
>Tarnopolu zm 1881 we Lwowie
>|
Francis marries Evelyn born 1874 is a colonel in 1945 and director of
a certain bank.
raymond l montgomery
What did you go and do now???
>From the remarks it must have torqued off quite a few!
Am i suppost to smile and shake my head or ????:)
Sincerely
RAY
On Mon, 26 Jul 1999 06:33:37 -1000 "D. Spencer Hines"
<D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu> writes:
>Vide infra.
>
>D. Spencer Hines
>
>Lux et Veritas
>
>D. Spencer Hines --- "Probitas Laudatur et Alget" [Honesty is praised
>and starves.], Decimus Junius Juvenalis (Juvenal) [c. 50 A.D.-- c.130
>A.D.], _Satires, I, line 74_
>
>David Zincavage <j...@inr.net> wrote in message
>
>> What class?
>>
>> I seem to have missed the controversial remarks leading to all this,
>> and at this point the original correspondence is an unfindable
>needle
>> in this large haystack.
>>
>> Will Mr. Hines kindly repeat any anti-Polish slurs, so that -as a
>> Lithuanian-- I can chivalrously defend our quondam allies in their
>> time of need?
>
>How déclassé and impossible. I'm Polish myself.
>
>>
>> Are you referring to titles like krol = king, wielki kniaz = grand
>> prince or grand duke, kniaz = prince or duke, margrabia = margrave,
>> hrabia = count, baron = baron, pan = lord or sir? or are you loking
>> for a list of offices?
>
>Both would be helpful. That's an _excellent_ start. Educate us in
>Polish Titles and Offices, please.
>
>Thank you kindly.
>
>
>Lux et Veritas
>
>
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P A MagLOCHLAINN
There was no distinction between the richest noble and the poorest (who
often owned only a large-ish farm). This was the reason for the historic
Liberum Veto - whereby it required only one noble to vote against any
resolution of the assembly of the nobility, and that resolution was lost.
Any titles (such as Prince, etc) indicating gradations of nobility, all came
from abroad, and were awarded by outside rulers.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
P A MagLochlainn (magloc...@dnet.co.uk)
=========
taramark wrote in message
<051001bed7a1$4aafe320$7c0d...@taramark.netins.net>...
> Arrogance diminishes wisdom.
> Arabian proverb
>-----Original Message-----
>From: D. Spencer Hines <D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu>
>To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
>Date: Monday, July 26, 1999 1:37 PM
>Subject: Re: God Save Poland
>>equivalents for us, or not?
>>If you're just pontificating --- that's no help.
>>Rafal seems unwilling to get too deeply into this subject of noble
>>titles, perhaps for fear of offending his Communist academic
>>colleagues. He's _very_ sensitive about that. He probably wants to
>>get back to his study of the occult and Satanism too. Nothing
>>politically incorrect about those, I suppose.
>>We could have some fun here with Polish Genealogy --- or we could stay
>>confined mostly to Western Europe, with some exceptions.
>>It's your choice.
>>Lux et Veritas
>>D. Spencer Hines --- "Probitas Laudatur et Alget" [Honesty is praised
>>and starves.], Decimus Junius Juvenalis (Juvenal) [c. 50 A.D.-- c.130
>>A.D.], _Satires, I, line 74_
======
Tristan Tornado
Maybe God will save Poland and maybe he won't, but first
someone needs to tell him of its existence and proper
directions in getting there.
Find the location of the rich man in Luke 16:22, go south
of that, and you will find Poland.
Tristan Tornado
(family crest:a Gnat vested in a lovely pink tutu,combat
boots and beany cap; armed with crossed condoms over a
yellow flag with the words (in french) "was it good for you
too ?")
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David Zincavage
nobles were theoretically speaking equal.
There were a small number of indigenous titles, principally princely
titles stemming from descent from Gedimin or Rurik. The use of titles
was contrary to the ethos of the noble equality, and the szlachta in
general effectively discouraged their propagation.
Renia Simmonds
which tells me which way to go. I'll let you know if I find the rich
man.
Actually, any rich man would do. I'll keep any I find.
Like the blazon.
Mine is 3 pale and sa pussy cats rampant, with crossed pen and stapler
over a computer mouse, and the motto "Who's going to pay the bill?"
Renia