William Fitz Alan [1105-1160]. Conflicting wife in sources.
Cynthia Swope
data. This concerns the wife to William Fitz Alan [1105-1160] and
his identified son . Before continuing, i seem to have trouble posting
to the group and sometimes the post is omitted. Any thanks due for
previous correspondance on alternate subjects succesfully posted owes
to this difficulty.
My chart is a mess concerning William Fitz Alan [1105-1160] and his
wife and child. This William is son of Alan Fitz Flaald and Avelina
de Hesdin .
Leo van de Pas in SGM post and citing Turton page 107 shows Helen
Peverel married William Fitz Alan [1105-1160].
SGM post
Subject: Doomsday Book and The Conqueror
Date: 2001-01-01
WW-Person shows Helen Peverel as wife to William FitzAlan above
identified. They cite Sir B.Burke: The Dormant and Extinct Peerage..
London, 1866.
http://faui8l.informatik.uni-erlangen.de/cgi-bin/stoyan/l1/LANG=engl/INDEX=I11609
No ascendancy in reference to this Helen at the union as presented
and this leads to other questions, but i'll omit those questions for
now.
David L Hinz posted a query relating to purported Eyton inclusion in
this line and in which he showed
> 2 Flaald de Dol 986
> 3 Alan Fitz Flaald 1020
> 4 Alan
> 4 Flaald Fitz Alan 1060
> 5 Alan Fitz Flaald 1078 - 1114
> +Avelina de Hesdin 1095
> 6 Walter Fitz Alan 1106
> 6 Jordan Fitz Alan 1108
> 6 William Fitz Alan 1110
> +Isabel de Say
> 7 Robert de Eyton
to which Todd Farmerie responded regarding the original Eyton query
and not disputing this different marriage for William Fitz Alan.
Thread can be found Under subject: Origin of Stuarts and the Fitz
Alans
Date: 1998/09/17
.
Tim Powyss-Libbe at his web pages shows the marriage of William Fitz
Alan as above to Isabel de Say and sources his William FitzAlan entry
to SP and DNB,and so supports the post by David L Hinz just above.
Following the link above given at WW-person can be found Isabel de
Say, Lady of Clune marrying the son of Helen Peverel and William Fitz
Alan. This son at that site is named John Fitzalan * of Clune and
Oswestry. Citation is Sir B.Burke: The Dormant and Extinct Peerage..
London, 1866. Isabel de Say is likewise sourced.
To further muddy the waters, Alan Wilson in SGM loosely citing
Complete Peerage, vol i, article on "arundel" for entire line's post
shows the son to William Fitz Alan and Helen Peverel named William
FitzALAN, Born Circa 1137 in Oswestry(Shrops) England. Died 1210 and
married to Isabel de Say Lady of Clune [From: Alan B. Wilson Subject:
Re: William Fitz Alan ca. 1060 Date: 1997/03/20 ]
Based on the above, the information looks like this:
Generation I
William Fitz Alan [1105-1160] married either Isabel de Say or
Helen de Peverel
Child [Generation II]:
William [otherwise identified as John and death dates at odds between
them ] married Isabel de Say or woman unknown.
Children [Generation III]
William married Mary de Erington
John, Lord Of Clune And Oswestry married Isabel D'Aubigny
Question 1)
Is the wife of William Fitz Alan 1105-1160 in dispute or uncertain as
indicated by the conflicting data above.
Question 2) Am i correct that the above mentioned William, either in
marriage to Helen Peverel or Isabel de Say, fathered one known
child, either
: a) William who died 1210 [shown as husband to Isabel de Say as above
in Alan Wilson post]
or b) John Fitzalan Lord of Clune and Oswestry as cited in WW person
for whom that site gives death date of 1172. [again shown as husband
to Isabel de say as per WW person].
Could some kind soul please help?
Cynthia Swope
Todd A. Farmerie
should point out the following:
Cynthia Swope wrote:
> David L Hinz posted a query relating to purported Eyton inclusion in
> this line and in which he showed
>
>> 2 Flaald de Dol 986
>> 3 Alan Fitz Flaald 1020
>> 4 Alan
>> 4 Flaald Fitz Alan 1060
>> 5 Alan Fitz Flaald 1078 - 1114
>> +Avelina de Hesdin 1095
>> 6 Walter Fitz Alan 1106
>> 6 Jordan Fitz Alan 1108
>> 6 William Fitz Alan 1110
>> +Isabel de Say
>> 7 Robert de Eyton
>>
> to which Todd Farmerie responded regarding the original Eyton query
> and not disputing this different marriage for William Fitz Alan.
> Thread can be found Under subject: Origin of Stuarts and the Fitz
> Alans
Do not read into a post anything more than what is stated. In
addressing one particular part of a post, it only means that I
have both the time and resources to comment on that specific
part, and should not be interpreted as my tacit approval of any
portion not addressed.
taf
Joe Cochoit
> Question 1)
> Is the wife of William Fitz Alan 1105-1160 in dispute or uncertain as
> indicated by the conflicting data above.
The best discussion I have seen of William Fitz Alan (c1105-1160) can
be found in Rev. Robert Eyton's Antiquities of Shropshire vol. VII p.
202-241.
Basically, neither he nor his sons ever married a Helen Peverel.
IIRC, this marriage was an invention by early 19th century
genealogists to explain how vast Shropshire lands and the powerful
position of Sheriff of Shropshire came to be held by the Fitz Alan
family, a family not present at the time of the Doomsday survey.
This William Fitz Alan had 2 wives. According to Ordericus, he
married first Christiana "niece of Robert Earl of Gloucester" (and so
possibly an unidentified granddaughter of Henry I?). This marriage is
a likely reason for William Fitz Alan's staunch support for the Earl
of Gloucester and the Empress Maud in their rebellion against King
Stephen. Ordericus mentions children, however, it is likely he had no
surviving male issue by this marriage as his heirs would be his sons
by his second marriage. He did have one daughter who was likely born
of this marriage – Christiana Fitz Alan who married Hugh Pantulf, 4th
Baron of Wem.
William Fitz Alan lost his lands during the rebellion and was forced
to seek asylum, probably in the court of the Earl of Chester. He
regained his lands and the title of Sheriff of Shropshire when Henry
II succeeded to the throne in December 1154, and as a reward for his
support was granted marriage to the rich heiress Isabel de Say,
Baroness of Clun. They were married in the spring of 1155. He died
about Easter 1160 and was buried in Shrewsbury Abbey.
> Question 2) Am i correct that the above mentioned William, either in
> marriage to Helen Peverel or Isabel de Say, fathered one known
> child, either
> : a) William who died 1210 [shown as husband to Isabel de Say as above
> in Alan Wilson post]
> or b) John Fitzalan Lord of Clune and Oswestry as cited in WW person
> for whom that site gives death date of 1172. [again shown as husband
> to Isabel de say as per WW person].
William Fitz Alan was succeeded by his son William II Fitz Alan, Lord
of Clun and Owestry who married "a daughter of Hugh de Lacy". This
William died in 1210 and was succeeded by his son William III Fitz
Alan who d.s.p. April 1215. William III's brother, John Fitz Alan
became Lord of Clun and Owestry and married Isabel, sister and in her
issue co-heir of Hugh de Aubigny,Earl of Arundel.
>
> Could some kind soul please help?
I hope I did.
Joe Cochoit
> WW-Person shows Helen Peverel as wife to William FitzAlan above
> identified. They cite Sir B.Burke: The Dormant and Extinct Peerage..
> London, 1866.
Burke's Dormant and Extinct Peerage does not give Helen Peverel as a
wife.
> David L Hinz posted a query relating to purported Eyton inclusion in
> this line and in which he showed
> > 2 Flaald de Dol 986
> > 3 Alan Fitz Flaald 1020
> > 4 Alan
> > 4 Flaald Fitz Alan 1060
> > 5 Alan Fitz Flaald 1078 - 1114
> > +Avelina de Hesdin 1095
> > 6 Walter Fitz Alan 1106
> > 6 Jordan Fitz Alan 1108
> > 6 William Fitz Alan 1110
The ancestry of William Fitz Alan was discovered and printed in
Studies in Peerage and Family History. by J. Horace Round, 1907.
"The Origin of the Stewarts", pages 115-146. It basically gives:
1. Alan Dapifer of Dol
2. Flaad Dapifer of Dol
3. Alan Fitz Flaald d: Aft. 1114
+Avelina de Hesdig
4. [1] William I Fitz Alan b: Abt. 1105 in of Oswestry,
Shropshire, England d: 1160 Burial: Shrewsbury Abbey (probably)
+Christiana of Gloucester d: Bef. 1155 m:1155
*2nd Wife of [1] William I Fitz Alan: Isabel de Sayd:
1199 m: 1155
> > +Isabel de Say
> > 7 Robert de Eyton
It is fairly easy to prove that Robert de Eyton was not a son of
William Fitz Alan ( by dates on charters Robert de Eyton was born bef.
1145, there is no overlap in the land holdings of the Eyton's and the
Fitz Alan's)
>
> To further muddy the waters, Alan Wilson in SGM loosely citing
> Complete Peerage, vol i, article on "arundel" for entire line's post
> shows the son to William Fitz Alan and Helen Peverel named William
> FitzALAN, Born Circa 1137 in Oswestry(Shrops) England. Died 1210 and
> married to Isabel de Say Lady of Clune [From: Alan B. Wilson Subject:
> Re: William Fitz Alan ca. 1060 Date: 1997/03/20 ]
The CP article on Arundel does not give the parents of John Fitz Alan
who married Isabel d'Aubigny. The Fitz Alan article confusingly
implies Isabel de Say married the second William Fitz Alan. This is
an error in CP. I do not know if it is corrected in vol. 14.
Cynthia Swope
> Do not read into a post anything more than what is stated. In
> addressing one particular part of a post, it only means that I
> have both the time and resources to comment on that specific
> part, and should not be interpreted as my tacit approval of any
> portion not addressed.
>
> taf
I try not to do that, and was attempting to clarify the sources of
conflict, not wishing to imply your agreement, only that it wasn't
disputed. I can see how this would be confusing in archive, and muddy
the waters. I apologize for any offense or misinterpretation I
offered. The original post should have just stayed put at the Hinz
posting without offering your name in any way.
Cynthia Swope
> snip..cut..paste
> > Could some kind soul please help?
> I hope I did.
> Joe Cochoit
>
It will take me some time to fully absorb your wonderful post, and I
thank you so much for the time and effort in responding to me. Once I
have digested the data, i may have a follow up question for you, but
in the meantime, Thanks, kind soul.
Cynthia
Rick Eaton
I cannot say where, because I do not remember and I did not
records it -- having departed from FitzAlan examinations --
but, I recall that some of William FitzAlan's exile was in
Scotland, This may have been in Molyneux, whose work, as you
know well, is not completely trustworthy.
Sorry, but I cannot document this.
Rick Eaton
Voice: 203.453.6261 Fax:203.453.0076