Mistress of Henry II
G . EDWARD ALLEN
I read what you wrote. The argument that Todd used is based on William
Longespee's donations cited in The Bradenstoke Cartulary, not anything
that DR has or has not published, therefore DR is immaterial.
Since I was involved in the Bradenstoke Cartulary discussion, and was
attacked, I felt that I could interject my commentary. And it is
Countess Ida, Countess Lucy is another thread. I stand by what I said
then and now.
I merely asked a question, which you have not answered, which is
"Are you equating the Bradenstoke Cartulary as we have previously
discussed it with the likes of Horatio Gates Somersby and other
charlatans? If so, why do you equate it so?"
I am my own person, not any body's monkey, and even if I am
post-menepausal, my chin is not furry:-) But it is cute. And horemones
are not a problem.
I continue to agree that it would be nice if DR would publish on the
Countess Ida (not Lucy). However, since The Bradenstoke Cartulary
can show two instances of William Longespee calling his mother Countess
Ida, which is totally independent of Douglas Richardson, it is the
Bradenstoke Cartulary which is material and not Douglas Richardson. And
frankly, I would prefer it if you could see your way clear to calling me
Mrs. Allen or Kay, not Allen.
I am looking forward to seeing your answer to my question concerning the
Bradenstoke Cartulary and any other commentary you might have, as long
as it is to the point, which I now consider to be theBradenstoke Car.
and not Douglas Richardson.
Kay Allen AG all...@pacbell.net
Josephine Lindsay Bass
reference to show this conflict to add to my records. I have so many
versions now my head is spinning.
I have:
FitzEmpress, Henry II Curtmantle, King of England
Born: 25 MAR 1133, Le Mans, Anjou
Acceded: 19 DEC 1154, Westminster, Abbey, London,England
Died: 6 JUL 1189, Chinon Castle, France
Interred: Fontevraud Abbey, France
Notes:
Reigned 1154-1189. He ruled an empire that stretched from the Tweed to the
Pyrenees. In spite of frequent hostitilties with the French King his own
family and rebellious Barons (culminating in the great revolt of 1173-74)
and his quarrel with Thomas Becket, Henry maintained control over his
possessions until shortly before his death. His judicial and administrative
reforms which increased Royal control and influence at the expense of the
Barons were of great constitutional importance. Introduced trial by Jury.
Duke of Normandy.
Father: Plantagenet, Geoffrey V the Fair, Count of Anjou and Maine, b. 24
AUG 1113.
Mother: Matilda the Empress, Queen of England, b. ABT 1103/04
Married 18 MAY 1152, Bordeaux Cathedral, Bordeaux, France to, Eleanor of
Aquitaine, Duchess of Aquitaine
Child 1: William, Count of Poitiers, b. 17 AUG 1152
Child 2: Henry the Young King, King of England, b. 28 FEB 1155 d 11 Jun
1183 m. Princess Marguerite Capet d. 1198.
Child 3: Matilda (Maud), b. JUN 1156 -1189 m. Duke Heinrich XII von
Sachsen aka: "Henry The Lion" 1129 -1195.
Child 4: Richard I Coeur de Lion, King of England, b. 8 SEP 1157
Child 5 Geoffrey II Plantagenet of Bretagne, Duke of Brittany, b. 23 SEP
1158 d. 1186 m. Constance De Bretagne, Countess of Brittany 1162-1201.
Child 6: Eleanor Plantagenet, b. 13 OCT 1162
Child 7: Joan Plantagenet, b. OCT 1165-1199 m. King William II di Sicilia
aka "William the Good" b 1154 d. 1189; 2nd Count Raymond VI de Toulouse
1156-1222.
Child 8: John I Lackland, King of England, b. 24 DEC 1167
Associated with Clifford, Rosamund (Joan)
Child 9: Geoffrey Plantagenet,Archbishop of York, b. ABT 1159
Child 10 William Longespée of Salisbury, Earl of Salisbury, b. AFT 1160
Child 11: Peter
Associated with Alisa
Child 12: daughter
Child 13: three children
Associated with Bloet, Nesta
Child 14: Morgan of Beverley, Provost of Beverley
Associated with de Porhoët, Alice
Child 15: child, b. ABT 1168
Child 16: Matilda of Barking, Abbess of Barking
Child 17: Hugh of Wells, Bishop of Lincoln
Child 18: Richard
*******************************************
Henry Plantagenet II, born March 05, 1132/33 in Le Mans, France; died July
06, 1189 in Chinon, France. He was the son of Geoffrey Plantagenet V and
Matilda the Empress. He married Rosamund (Joan) Clifford. She was the
daughter of Walter FitzRichard de Clifford and Margaret de Toeni.
Child of Henry Plantagenet and Rosamund Clifford is:
i. William Longspee, married Ela 1198.
Child of Henry Plantagenet and Eleanor Aquitaine is:
i. John Plantagenet I, born December 24, 1166 in Oxford, Eng; died October
19, 1216 in Newark, Nottinghamshire, Eng; married dau de Warenne.
***************************************
Henry Plantagenet II, born March 05, 1132/33 in Le Mans, France; died July
06, 1189 in Chinon, France. He was the son of Geoffrey Plantagenet V and
Matilda the Empress. He married Eleanor Of Aquitaine May 18, 1152.
Eleanor Of Aquitaine, born 1123; died April 01, 1204 in Fontevrault,
France. She was the daughter of Guillaume VIII Of Aquitaine and Eleanor
de Chastellerault.
Child of Henry Plantagenet and Rosamund Clifford is:
i. William Longspee, married Ela 1198.
Child of Henry Plantagenet and Eleanor Aquitaine is:
i. John Plantagenet I, born December 24, 1166 in Oxford, Eng; died October
19, 1216 in Newark, Nottinghamshire, Eng; married dau de Warenne. Earl of
Warenne.
Notes
Perhaps Hamelin Plantagenet
Child of Earl Warenne is:
i. dau de Warenne, married John Plantagenet I.
***********************************
Henry Anjou II PLANTAGENET
(King of England)
BIRTH: 25 MAR 1133, Le Mans,Sarthe,France
DEATH: 6 JUL 1189, Chinon,Indre Et Loire,France
BURIAL: 8 JUL 1189, Fontevraud Abbey,Maine Et Loire,France
TITLE: King of England
Father: Geoffrey Anjou V PLANTAGENET
Mother: Matilda (Maud) Alice NORMANDY
Family 1: Eleanor de Aquitaine POITIERS
MARRIAGE: 18 MAY 1152, Whitsuntide,Bordeaux,England,France
1.William Anjou PLANTAGENET
2.Henry Anjou PLANTAGENET
3.Maud Matilda Anjou PLANTAGENET
4.Richard_I (The_Lion Hearted) PLANTAGENET
5.Geoffroi Anjou II PLANTAGENET
6.Philip Anjou PLANTAGENET
7.Eleanor Anjou PLANTAGENET
8.Joanna Anjou PLANTAGENET
9.John (Lackland) Anjou PLANTAGENET
10.Alice Anjou PLANTAGENET
Family 2: Rosamond CLIFFORD
MARRIAGE: ABT 1174, England
1.Geoffrey PLANTAGENET
Family 3: Annabel BALIOL
MARRIAGE: NOT MARRIED
1.William (Longespee) (Bastard_Son) LONGESPEE
Family 4: Alix Alice CAPET
MARRIAGE: NOT MARRIED
1.Infant PLANTAGENET
Notes
He was called "Curt Mantel". Ruled 1154-1189. to throne: 25 Oct 1154.
Henry may not have been sired by his legal father, Geoffrey of Anjou, the
Plantagenet Count of Anjou.
Assasinated during a mass in Italy
Source: LDS Ancestral File; Ancestral Roots of Sixty Colonists..., p 3;
Royal.zip (Compuserve); French Royals (FR-DO-DE.zip)(Compuserve);
Bryananc.Aht.At 12:18 PM 10/1/98 -0700, you wrote:
jb...@digital.net
216 Beach Park Lane
Cape Canaveral, FL 32920-5003
LINDSAY, HARRISON & CSA-HISTORY Roots Mail List
Home of The *HARRISON* Repository & *MY FAMILY*
http://moon.ouhsc.edu/rbonner/harintro.htm
Data Managed by Becky Bass Bonner and Josephine Lindsay Bass
D. Spencer Hines
imply any lack of respect for anyone --- one name for all --- democratic and
egalitarian.
This is done for clarity and brevity --- not out of any "third-person"
disease.
Occasionally, Hines will use full names or first names --- if he believes it
is warranted, based on previous private correspondence, comity of purpose or
other valid reasons. Hines reserves the right to do that as he chooses.
Other folks are free to set their own rules in such matters. It is purely a
personal preference. We should respect and honour such preferences. ERP
and the GLLB, of course, have their own coveted, unique niche in History.
Too many pronouns tend to confuse people, particularly when clearly
assigning responsibility. This is very important in History and Genealogy.
Readers who are trying to ferret out the antecedents on a small flickering
computer monitor often become confused and do not connect the antecedents
properly. We see it happen all the time on USENET.
Once again unto the breach. Hines wrote several long, comprehensive
thoughtful posts on the "Countess Ida" matter. They are all a matter of
public record at Deja News.
Allen did not read them carefully at the time --- because she was in "High
Dudgeon." She was blinded by her own emotions. Hines need say no more.
She still appears to be in "High Dudgeon" --- and will not read the record
and think carefully about Genealogical evidence and proof. Hines does not
answer off-the-wall rhetorical questions by folks who willfully refuse to do
their homework, reading and studying the published record.
Farmerie, by his cowardly silence, feeds the monster in these matters.
He should be ashamed of himself and needs a good solid course in
Historiography.
Both Allen and Farmerie could also profitably read "The Art of
Cross-Examination" by Francis L. Wellman [1854-1942]. It will sharpen their
minds, improve their spirits and give them both better dispositions toward
the nature and complexity of truth.
Wellman was a direct descendant of Francis Lewis, third signer of the
Declaration of Independence and of Morgan Lewis, an early Governor of New
York.
Best Wishes To All,
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas
'Nuff Said
Fortem Posce Animum
--
D. Spencer Hines --- "I said in 1992 he's a bright young guy in business, I
might put him somewhere and train him to be a middle manager. Right now I
wouldn't have him third shift in a hamburger stand responsible for cleaning
out the sink after everybody had gone home." --- H. Ross Perot, Texas
billionaire, who spent $65 million of his own money in 1992 defeating
President George Herbert Walker Bush and opening the door to President
William Jefferson Clinton. [9/26/98]
G . EDWARD ALLEN
Mr. Hines may call me anything he wishes as long as it's not late to
dinner:-) I was just expressing a preference.
For the record I have read all thecorrespondance on these matters. For
the truth of the matter anybody who is interested in this matter should
read the missives for themselves and not take my word or Mr. Hines word,
as the end of the matter.
Since he has refused to answer the question I posed to him, I have
nothing more to say on the matter. He may continue to discourse in his
own inimitable fashion.
As to legal books, I have probably read more of them than has Mr. Hines.
I have also probably participated in more legal proceedings acting as a
barrister than has Mr. Hines, but I thank him for the gratuitous reading
list anyway. His approach to truth and scholarship is uniquely his own.
Kay Allen AG all...@pacbell.net
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> Well, I guess I have it wrong - please can I have a good synopsis and
> reference to show this conflict to add to my records. I have so many
> versions now my head is spinning.
Let me summarize the various mistresses of Henry II that have been
claimed as mothers of his son William Longespee. The 'First
identified', 'Basis', and 'Contemporary documentation' tags relate
specifically to their identification as mother of William, not to them
being mistress of Henry. Note particularly the 'Contemporary
documentation' lines.
1.Rosamunde Clifford
First identified: by 15th century?
Basis: celebrated favorite mistress of Henry II
Contemporary documentation: NONE
2.Hikenai
First identified: 19th or 20th century?
Basis: documented mother of Geoffrey, another of Henry's illegitimates
Contemporary documentation: NONE
3.Annabel Baliol
First identified: 20th century
Basis: documented mistress of Henry II during approximate period of
William's birth
Contemporary documentation: NONE
4.Alix de Porhoet
First identified: 20th century
Basis: documented mother of a child by Henry II during approximate time
period
Contemporary documentation: NONE
5.Alice of France
First identified: 19th or 20th century?
Basis: documented mother of a child by Henry II
Contemporary documentation: NONE
6.Countess Ida
First identified: 20th century
Basis: named by son William Longespee in two donations
Contemporary documentation: two donations recorded in the Bradenstoke
Cartulary
So you can accept the late and entirely unsupported speculation for any
of the first five, or you can take William's own word for it, found in
contemporary documents. I'll go with William.
taf
D. Spencer Hines
Farmerie is *most* duplicitous and disingenuous, infra. He is also too much
of a coward and a timid mouse to answer his challengers directly. He fears
his own shadow.
If he believes he has the goods on this important issue, he should write it
up and publish it here --- on the Web. No delay, the truth comes out
immediately. His teaser messages and furtive little sallies are a
poltroon's substitute for scholarly proof.
Is he perhaps afraid of losing a coveted line of his own?
He neglects to tell his gentle readers that:
1. This enumeration, infra, is not a collectively exhaustive list of Henry
II's known mistresses.
2. "Countess Ida" reportedly cannot be equated with confidence to a known
historical individual. However, pcr has done some good work on this.
Perhaps he should publish his findings. Also, he writes better than
Farmerie.
3. The first five names allegedly can be so equated, to a greater or lesser
degree.
4. Sons are not always the best judge of who their Mothers actually were.
They tend to be rather small and non-witting at birth. These small sons
frequently do not have impressive records of the event. Birth certificates
for the 12th Century are often hard to come by, n'est-ce pas?
5. Provenance of documents and a complete analysis of all the relevant
facts are part of the standard track for any reputable Historian or
Genealogist.
6. Farmerie lies. The Bradenstoke Cartulary is NOT "contemporary
documentation." He should be man enough to admit that.
7. We do not even know for sure when William Longespee was born. Farmerie
tries to dodge that bullet, do a buck and wing and ignore it. He must think
the audience here is VERY stupid and misinformed. He is wrong on that score
as well.
'Nuff Said. For This Post.
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas
--
D. Spencer Hines --- "I said in 1992 he's a bright young guy in business, I
might put him somewhere and train him to be a middle manager. Right now I
wouldn't have him third shift in a hamburger stand responsible for cleaning
out the sink after everybody had gone home." --- H. Ross Perot, Texas
billionaire, who spent $65 million of his own money in 1992 defeating
President George Herbert Walker Bush and opening the door to President
William Jefferson Clinton. [9/26/98]
Todd A. Farmerie wrote in message <3613F8...@po.cwru.edu>...
>Josephine Lindsay Bass wrote:
>>
>> Well, I guess I have it wrong - please can I have a good synopsis and
>> reference to show this conflict to add to my records. I have so many
>> versions now my head is spinning.
>
D. Spencer Hines
Dear Kay,
I hope you are enjoying your sentimental journey through the Deja View
files --- looking for virgin nuggets of pure gold. It'll do ye good lass.
You will also find Wellman to be an excellent read and it will fill some of
those cerebral lacunae on rules of evidence and standards of proof in
Genealogy and History that you keep exposing. Is this a fan dance of some
sort?
As to Hines's concept of truth, he'll stick with Saint Thomas Aquinas on
that one. It has weathered many storms. Vide infra.
Are you perhaps "Looking for Love and Truth in All the Wrong Places?" If
that is not a Country and Western song, it should be.
Love and Kisses.
Spencer
--
D. Spencer Hines --- "The final happiness of man consists in the
contemplation of truth....This is sought for its own sake, and is directed
to no other end beyond itself." Saint Thomas Aquinas, [1224/5-1274] "Summa
Contra Gentiles" [c.1258-1264]