Fw: Lineage from Robert I of Flanders to Charlemagne DEFINITE LY
Stewart, Peter
> From: Roger LeBlanc [mailto:lebl...@mb.sympatico.ca]
> Sent: Friday, 22 June 2001 15:06
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: Fw: Lineage from Robert I of Flanders to Charlemagne
> DEFINITELY
>
> <snip>
> I agree with your first choice that comes to mind being this
> lineage. I also follow the starred spouses as being Carolingian
> descendants, and suppose the number of stars is equal to the
> number of descents for the designated spouse. But I'm
> curious to know where the following line for Ogive of
> Luxembourg breaks down.
>
> 1.
> Charlemagne
> Louis I
> Charles II
> Louis II
> Ermentrude
> Cunégonde
> Luitgarde
Here - Frederick I's mother Hedwig was a Saxon lady of unknown parentage. He
was descended from Cunégonde (above) through his father Siegfrid, count in
the Moselgau & lord of Luxemburg, but not also through his mother as far as
can be ascertained (or is at all likely for that matter).
> Hedwig
> Frederick I
> Ogive (m. Baldwin IV of Flanders)
Peter Stewart
Stewart, Peter
> From: Todd A. Farmerie [mailto:farm...@interfold.com]
> Sent: Friday, 22 June 2001 18:43
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: Fw: Lineage from Robert I of Flanders to Charlemagne
> DEFINITELY
>
> <snip>
> Luxembourg breaks down.
> >
> > 1.
> > Charlemagne
> > Louis I
> > Charles II
> > Louis II
> > Ermentrude
> > Cunégonde
> > Luitgarde
> > Frederick I
> > Ogive (m. Baldwin IV of Flanders)
>
> At least 15 years ago, the prefered reconstruction was:
>
> Ermentrude
> Cunigunde
> Siegfried
> Frederick
>
> I have also seen:
>
> Ermentrude
> Cunigunde
> Hedwig
> Frederick
>
> Please fill out your line in more detail - who is Lietgarde's
> father and husband?
According to KF Werner [in "Die Nachkommen Karls des Grossen bis um das Jahr
1000 (1--8 Generation)", *Karl der Grosse: Lebenswerk und Nachleben*, 5
vols, ed Wolfgang Braunfels & others (Dusseldorf, 1965--68)], Liutgard was a
daughter of Cunigunde and Wigeric, count palatine in the Ardennes. She
married successively Adalbert, count of Metz (killed in battle 944) and the
Etichinid Ebehard IV, count in the Nordgau (died 18 Dec 972/3), leaving
descendants by both husbands.
The parentage of Siegfried of Luxemburg is much debated, with Werner placing
him as a son of Cunigunde and Wigeric, others suggesting he was posthumous
or Cunigunde's son by her later known husband Ricuin, count of Verdun, or an
unknown third husband belonging to the Matfried family. This is all largely
speculative. As far as I know, Werner's reconstruction of the descent from
Cunigunde is still as valid as another placing Siegfired's wife Hedwig into
the line instead of him: the main trouble I see with this is that Hedwig
would have been considerably younger than any of her other known children -
Siegfried was an abbot before marrying Hedwig, perhaps ca 955/60, whereas
Cunigunde's other children seem to have been already married in the 930s.
Peter Stewart
Stewart, Peter
> From: Stewart, Peter [mailto:Peter....@crsrehab.gov.au]
> Sent: Monday, 25 June 2001 9:26
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: RE: Fw: Lineage from Robert I of Flanders to Charlemagne
> DEFINITE LY
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Todd A. Farmerie [mailto:farm...@interfold.com]
> > Sent: Friday, 22 June 2001 18:43
> > To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> > Subject: Re: Fw: Lineage from Robert I of Flanders to Charlemagne
> > DEFINITELY
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > father and husband?
>
> According to KF Werner [in "Die Nachkommen Karls des Grossen
> bis um das Jahr 1000 (1--8 Generation)", *Karl der Grosse:
> Lebenswerk und Nachleben*, 5 vols, ed Wolfgang Braunfels &
> others (Dusseldorf, 1965--68)], Liutgard was a daughter of Cunigunde
> and Wigeric, count palatine in the Ardennes. She married successively
> Adalbert, count of Metz (killed in battle 944) and the Etichinid
> Ebehard IV, count in the Nordgau (died 18 Dec 972/3), leaving
> descendants by both husbands.
Apologies - the above of course should read "Etichonid" and "Eberhard", and
Werner was not the source of Count Eberhard's identification with that
family.
The relationships are rather more complicated if Siegfried of Luxemburg was
of the Matfried family and not the son of Cunigunde by Wigeric. I'm not sure
who put forward the conjecture that his wife Hedwig was Cunigunde's daughter
or grand-daughter. As Liutgard's daughter by either of her husbands, how
would she have been the heiress of Luxemburg, or is this not suggested
anyway?
Peter Stewart
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> According to KF Werner [in "Die Nachkommen Karls des Grossen bis um das Jahr
> 1000 (1--8 Generation)", *Karl der Grosse: Lebenswerk und Nachleben*, 5
> vols, ed Wolfgang Braunfels & others (Dusseldorf, 1965--68)], Liutgard was a
> daughter of Cunigunde and Wigeric, count palatine in the Ardennes. She
> married successively Adalbert, count of Metz (killed in battle 944) and the
> Etichinid Ebehard IV, count in the Nordgau (died 18 Dec 972/3), leaving
> descendants by both husbands.
I was just reading about this. There is a surviving document in
which "Countess Liutgarde" makes a donation on behalf of her
parents, Wigeric and Cunigunde, and her husbands Albert and
Eberhard, so at least this much is attested (the identification
of the men with the Counts of Metz and Nordgau is another matter,
but I see no immediate reason to question it).
taf
Stewart, Peter
> From: Todd A. Farmerie [mailto:farm...@interfold.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, 26 June 2001 14:05
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: Fw: Lineage from Robert I of Flanders to Charlemagne
> DEFINITELY
>
>
> >
> > According to KF Werner [in "Die Nachkommen Karls des
> > Grossen bis um das Jahr 1000 (1--8 Generation)", *Karl der
> > Grosse: Lebenswerk und Nachleben*, 5 vols, ed Wolfgang
> > Braunfels & others (Dusseldorf, 1965--68)], Liutgard was a
> > daughter of Cunigunde and Wigeric, count palatine in the
> > Ardennes. She married successively Adalbert, count of Metz
> > in the Nordgau (died 18 Dec 972/3), leaving descendants
> > by both husbands.
>
> I was just reading about this. There is a surviving document in
> which "Countess Liutgarde" makes a donation on behalf of her
> parents, Wigeric and Cunigunde, and her husbands Albert and
> Eberhard, so at least this much is attested (the identification
> of the men with the Counts of Metz and Nordgau is another matter,
> but I see no immediate reason to question it).
Perhaps the identification of Liutgard's first husband Adalbert as the man
who held comital office in the Metzgau & was killed in 944 is somewhat more
certain than that of her second husband Eberhard - he is sometimes given as
count of Egisheim (supposed to have died 18 February 967), and sometimes as
count in the Alsatian Nordgau (died 18 December 972/3) - I don't know if
these are definitely two different men.
I haven't followed recent studies of these families - Eduard Hlawitschka's:
*Die Anfänge des Hauses Habsburg-Lothringen: Genealogische Studien zur
Geschichte Lothringens und des Reiches im 9,10 und 11 Jahrhundert*
(Saarbrücken, 1969) and Rüdiger E Barth's: *Der Herzog in Lothringien im 10
Jahrhundert* (Sigmaringen, 1990) may be superceded for all I know. Can you
let us know what you were reading about this?
Peter Stewart
Todd A. Farmerie
Thierry Stasser's "L'epouse de Robert Ier de Namur: Essai
d'identification", in Onomastique et Parente dans l'Occident
medieval, pp. 113-5. Robert I, Count of Namur had children
Albert, Giselbert, Robert and Lietgarde. He brings up this woman
in the context of hist trying to identify Robert's wife through
onomastics - Lietgarde, daughter of Wigeric and Kunigunde had a
brother Giselbert, and a husband Albert, suggesting the
possibility that Robert's wife was daughter of Adalbert and
Lietgarde. Tis must, however, be viewed with extreme skepticism,
as the parentage of Robert I himself is not determined, and so it
is possible that all of these names had already been brought into
the family.
taf