Benedict Cumberbatch & Edward IV

[D. Spencer Hines]

By some on-line accounts, the superb British actor, Benedict Cumberbatch,
has a descent from Edward IV and Edward's mistress, Elizabeth Waite --
making him a 15th great-grandson of Edward IV -- and, of course, a 15th
great-grandnephew of Richard III -- rather than just a 2nd cousin, 16 times
removed of Richard III.

Can anyone here verify that?

DSH

"The final happiness of man consists in the contemplation of truth....
This is sought for its own sake, and is directed to no other end beyond
itself."

Saint Thomas Aquinas, [1224/5-1274] _Summa Contra Gentiles_
[c. 1258-1264]

[wjhonson]

On Friday, September 8, 2017 at 11:27:37 PM UTC-7, D. Spencer Hines wrote:
> By some on-line accounts, the superb British actor, Benedict Cumberbatch,
> has a descent from Edward IV and Edward's mistress, Elizabeth Waite --
> making him a 15th great-grandson of Edward IV -- and, of course, a 15th
> great-grandnephew of Richard III -- rather than just a 2nd cousin, 16 times
> removed of Richard III.
>
> Can anyone here verify that?
>
> DSH
>

The line back from Anne Bowes is equidistant from both Edward IV of England and James II of Scotland

The issue then becomes the connecting link from Benedict's known ancestor Caroline Chaloner, back to that specific William Chaloner who is known to have married Mary Finney

If that hundred year gap can be filled with supporting documents, the connection is made

[wjhonson]

I have confirmed that William Chaloner, by his wife Mary Finney, did have a son William Chaloner born 14 Aug 1745, who married Emma Harvey daughter of William Harvey of Chigwell. They married 8 Aug 1771

One of their children was a Caroline Chaloner baptised 25 Nov 1788 at Guisborough York

And then a seperate fact that Abraham Parry Cumberbatch married a woman named Caroline Chaloner.

However the gap is now the question of whether there is actual documentation which evidences that this Caroline is the same person as that Caroline

[John Higgins]

See the article on the Chaloner family in recent editions of BP.

[wjhonson]

The Caroline Cumberbatch who was buried 21 Oct 1842 at Holy Trinity Brampton was called "aged 54"

[D. Spencer Hines]

I'm not quite clear on what you mean by "equidistant".

I have one model that makes Anne Bowes a 7th great-granddaughter of Edward
IV -- but only a 3rd cousin, 7 times removed, of James II, King of Scots.

Perhaps you could show us the proposed direct linkage to James II, King of
Scots?

DSH

"The final happiness of man consists in the contemplation of truth....
This is sought for its own sake, and is directed to no other end beyond
itself."

Saint Thomas Aquinas, [1224/5-1274] _Summa Contra Gentiles_
[c. 1258-1264]

"wjhonson" wrote in message
news:46865d9f-fcf5-4f68...@googlegroups.com...

[Brad Verity]

On Sunday, September 10, 2017 at 5:46:10 PM UTC-7, wjhonson wrote:
> The Caroline Cumberbatch who was buried 21 Oct 1842 at Holy Trinity Brampton was called "aged 54"

I think it's safe to assume that the Caroline Chaloner who married Abraham Parry Cumberbatch in 1819 at Tonbridge, Kent, was the same Caroline Chaloner born at Guisborough Hall, Yorkshire in 1788. Rev. John William Clay, in his 'Dugdale's Visitation of Yorkshire with Additions' Vol. 2 (1907), pp. 234-235 (sub Chaloner of Guisborough), does not give any marriage for this Caroline, but as John Higgins has pointed out, Burke's Peerage 107th Edn. (2003), p. 1556 (sub Gisborough), does have: “3a Caroline; b 2 Oct 1788; m 13 April 1819 Abraham Parry Cumberbatch. He d 10 Oct 1840.”

Given the rarity of the name - the only Caroline Chaloner who pops up when searching the birth range 1775-1800 on Find My Past is this Guisborough lady - plus the fact that Caroline's mother Emma (Harvey) Chaloner lived in Tunbridge Wells in her widowhood and died there, all the pieces fit together nicely. In this period, age was often given as how old you would turn on your next birthday. So Caroline Cumberbatch's age at her 1842 death we would consider today to be 53, since that was how old she had turned on her previous birthday, in 1842 her age could just as well have been considered 54 (in her 54th year), since that was how old she would turn on her next birthday.

What's interesting is that no notice of this Cumberbatch-Chaloner marriage appears in the newspapers, or in Gentleman's Magazine, which explains why Rev. Clay, researching the Chaloner family decades later, was unaware of it. Caroline was a 30-year-old spinster when she married Cumberbatch, a widower four years her senior, with three children, aged 12, 10 and 7, from his first wife, who had died the year before he wed Caroline.

The Cumberbatch family were not established landed gentry (there's no entry for them in Burke's Family Index), but instead had made their fortune through the ownership of several sugar plantations on Barbados (which also meant they owned slaves):
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2549773/How-Benedict-Cumberbatchs-family-fortune-slavery-And-roles-films-like-12-Years-A-Slave-bid-atone-sins.html

When the middle-aged Caroline wed Cumberbatch in 1819, the head of her family was her eldest brother Robert Chaloner (1776-1842), a prominent Yorkshire banker and M.P. We don't have enough information currently to determine whether Caroline's marriage was opposed by her family in any way, due either to the new-money status of Cumberbatch, or to political opposition to slaveowning (I cannot tell from his entry in HOP whether or not Robert Chaloner was an abolitionist). It's just as possible the marriage went under the radar due to the couple being middle-aged. There is no notice in the newspapers of the 1840 death of Abraham Parry Cumberbatch, nor of the 1842 death of his widow Caroline. But notice of the 1843 marriage of their son Robert William Cumberbatch (1822-1876) to Emily Lloyd did appear in newspapers.

On Sunday, September 10, 2017 at 6:44:42 PM UTC-7, D. Spencer Hines wrote:
> I'm not quite clear on what you mean by "equidistant".
> I have one model that makes Anne Bowes a 7th great-granddaughter of Edward
> IV -- but only a 3rd cousin, 7 times removed, of James II, King of Scots.
> Perhaps you could show us the proposed direct linkage to James II, King of
> Scots?

Caroline (Chaloner) Cumberbatch has at least two, and probably three, lines of descent from Edward IV's illegitimate daughter Lady Margaret Lumley. She also has a line of descent from James II of Scotland through an illegitimate great-granddaughter of the monarch. Finally, Caroline should have been included in Ruvigny's 'Mortimer-Percy' volume (1911) on p. 236, alongside her parents and siblings. But since Rev. Clay was unaware of Caroline's marriage, it's no surprise that his contemporary Ruvigny was also unaware of it. So here are these five lines of descent, as I have them.

Edward IV = (probably) Margaret Fitzlewis, Dame Lucy (1440-1466, descended from Edward I), and had a dau:
A1) Margaret Plantagenet, illegit. (b. c.1462) m. Thomas Lumley, Heir of Lumley Castle (c.1462-1503, descended from Edward III), and had a son A2 and two daus B2 & C2 (see below)
A2) Roger Lumley of Ludworth Tower m. Isabel Radcliffe (descended from Edward I), and had
A3) Agnes Lumley (d. 1564) m. John Lambton of Lambton Castle (c.1505-1549), and had
A4) Robert Lambton of Lambton Hall (c.1530-1583) m. Frances Eure (b. c.1530, descended from Edward III), and had
A5) Jane Lambton (c.1568-1648) m. Sir William Blakistoni of Gibside Hall (1562-1641), and had
A6) Sir Ralph Blakiston, 1st Baronet of Gibside (c.1589-1650) m. Margaret Fenwick (descended from Edward III), and had
A7) Sir Francis Blakiston, 3rd Baronet of Gibside (c.1630-1713) m. Anne Bowes (see B7 below), and had
A8) ELIZABETH BLAKISTON, b. c.1670; bur. 5 July 1736 St Mary Church, South Bailey, Durham; m. 17 Aug. 1691 St Margaret Church, Tanfield, Durham, Sir WILLIAM BOWES of Streatlam Castle (see D8 below), and had
A9) ANNE BOWES, b. 24 Oct. 1695 Barnard Castle, Durham, bapt. 27 Oct. 1695 St Mary Church, Barnard Castle; bur. there 6 Nov. 1734; m. 11 June 1713 St Mary Church, Barnard Castle, EDWARD CHALONER of Guisborough Hall (see E17 below), and had
A10) WILLIAM CHALONER of Guisborough Hall, b. 29 July 1714 Streatlam Castle, bap. there 1 Aug. 1714; d. 13 Feb. 1754 Guisborough Hall, bur. 18 Feb. 1754 St Nicholas Church, Guisborough; m. 1 Oct. 1741 St Edmund Church, Sedgefield, Durham, MARY FINNEY, b. c.1720; bur. 2 July 1787 St Nicholas Church, Guisborough, dau. of Dr. James Finney, Prebendary of Durham Cathedral 1706-27 (1687-1727) & Thomasine Burdon, and had
A11) WILLIAM CHALONER of Guisborough Hall, b. there 14 Aug. 1745, bap. 2 Sept. 1745 St Nicholas Church, Guisborough; d. there 8 May 1793, bur. there 11 May 1793; m. 8 Aug. 1771 St James Church, Westminster, London, EMMA HARVEY, b. 29 Aug. 1753, bap. 21 Sept. 1753 St Anne Soho, London; d. 6 Aug. 1835 Tunbridge Wells, Kent, dau. of William Harvey of Rolls House, Chigwell, Essex (1714-1763, descended from Edward III) & Emma Skinner (1731-1767), and had
A12) CAROLINE CHALONER, b. 2 Oct. 1788 Guisborough Hall, bap. 25 Nov. 1788 St Nicholas Church, Guisborough; d. 15 Oct. 1842 Brompton, London, bur. 21 Oct. 1842 Holy Trinity Church, Brompton; m. 13 Apr. 1819 St Peter & St Paul Church, Tonbridge, Kent, as his 2nd wife, ABRAHAM PARRY CUMBERBATCH of The Broad, Hellingly, Sussex, bap. 29 Nov. 1784 St Peter, Barbados, West Indies; d. 10 Oct. 1840 Tunbridge Wells, Kent, son of Abraham Cumberbatch of Fairwater House, Taunton, Devon, sugar planter (1754-1796) & Mary Cumberbatch Sober (b. c.1765). They are 3xgreat-grandparents of actor Benedict Cumberbatch (b. 1976).

B2) Anne Lumley m. 1) Robert, 4th Baron Ogle (c.1490-1532, descended from Edward III), and had
B3) Agnes Ogle* m. Sir John Delaval of Seaton Delaval Hall (by 1523-1572), and had
B4) Sir Robert Delaval of Seaton Delaval Hall (by 1542-1607) m. Dorothy Gray (c.1554-bef.1600, descended from Edward III), and had
B5) Sir Ralph Delaval of Seaton Delaval Hall (c.1575-1628) m. Jane Hilton (see C6 below), and had
B6) Mary Delaval (b. c.1600) m. Sir George Bowes of Bradley Hall (1596-1643), and had
B7) Anne Bowes (c.1635-1701) m. Sir Francis Blakiston, 3rd Baronet of Gibside Hall (see A7 above)

*For the reason why I believe Agnes (Ogle) Delaval has this parentage, instead of a generation further back, which is where published Ogle pedigrees have placed her, see footnote *1 in my blogpost:
https://royaldescent.blogspot.ca/2015/06/edward-iv-descents-for-agnes-mary-nee.html

C2) Sybil Lumley (c.1480-by 1526) m. William, 9th Lord Hilton (d. by 1537), and had
C3) William, 11th Lord Hilton (c.1508-1562) m. Margaret Metcalfe (d. 1566), and had
C4) William, 12th Lord Hilton (c.1535-1600) m. Anne Yorke (descended from Edward I), and had
C5) Thomas Hilton, Heir of Hilton Castle (c.1560-1598) m. Anne Bowes (c.1563-1608, descended from Edward I), and had
C6) Jane Hilton (c.1584-1645) m. 1) Sir Ralph Delaval of Seaton Delaval Hall (see B5 above)

James II of Scotland had a son:
D1) Alexander Stewart, 1st Duke of Albany (c.1454-1485) m.(div.) 1) Lady Catherine Sinclair, and had
D2) Alexander Stewart, Bishop of Moray (c.1472-1537) = unknown mistress, and had
D3) Margaret Stewart, illegit. (c.1508-by 1550) m. 1) Patrick Graham/Graeme, 1st Laird of Inchbrakie Castle (c.1507-1536), and had
D4) George Graeme, 2nd Laird of Inchbrakie Castle (c.1531-1576) m. Marjory Rollo (d. 1625), and had
D5) Nichola Graeme (b. c.1565) m. Patrick Maxtone, 6th of Cultoquhey (d. 1618), and had
D6) Rev. Anthony Maxton(e), Prebendary of Durham Cathedral (d. 1641) m. Anne Dudley of Chopwell, and had
D7) ANNE MAXTON, b. c.1625; bur. 31 Dec. 1705 St Mary Church, Barnard Castle; m. by 1648, THOMAS BOWES of Streatlam Castle, Durham, bap. 23 Dec. 1607 St Mary Church, Richmond, Yorkshire; bur. 9 Sept. 1661 St Mary Church, Barnard Castle, son of Thomas Bowes of Streatlam Castle (c.1570-1636, descended from Edward I) & Anne Warcop (d. 1653), and had
D8) Sir WILLIAM BOWES of Streatlam Castle, bap. 6 Jan. 1657 St Mary Church, Barnard Castle; bur. there 12 Feb. 1707; m. 17 Aug. 1691 St Margaret Church, Tanfield, Durham, ELIZABETH BLAKISTON (see A8 above)

Edward III had a 2nd surviving son:
E1) Lionel of Antwerp, 1st Duke of Clarence (1338-1368) m. 1) Lady Elizabeth de Burgh (1332-1363, descended from Edward I), and had
E2) Lady Philippa Plantagenet of Clarence (1355-1377) m. Edmund Mortimer, 3rd Earl of March (1352-1381), and had
E3) Lady Elizabeth Mortimer (1371-1417) m. 1) Sir Henry 'Hotspur' Percy (1364-1403), and had
E4) Henry Percy, 2nd Earl of Northumberland (1394-1455) m. Lady Eleanor Neville (1403-1472, descended from Edward III), and had
E5) Henry Percy, 3rd Earl of Northumberland (1421-1461) m. Eleanor Poynings (1428-1484, descended from Edward I), and had
E6) Henry Percy, 4th Earl of Northumberland (c.1449-1489) m. Lady Maud Herbert (c.1457-by 1487), and had
E7) Henry Algernon Percy, 5th Earl of Northumberland (1478-1527) m. Katherine Spencer (1477-1542, descended from Edward III), and had
E8) Lady Margaret Percy (c.1495-1540) m. Henry Clifford, 1st Earl of Cumberland (1493-1542, descended from Edward III), and had
E9) Lady Katherine Clifford (1518-1598) m. 1) John, 8th Lord Scrope of Bolton (c.1515-1549, descended from Edward III), and had
E10) Margaret Scrope m. Sir John Constable of Burton Constable (1526-1579, descended from Edward III), and had
E11) Sir Henry Constable of Burton Constable (c.1559-1608) m. Margaret Dormer (1562-1637), and had
E12) Katherine Constable (c.1578-1626) m. Thomas, 1st Viscount Fairfax of Emly (1577-1636, descended from Edward III), and had
E13) Hon. Mary Fairfax (c.1598-1636) m. Sir Thomas Layton of Sexhow Hall (1597-1651), and had
E14) Mary Layton (c.1617-1657) m. Sir Henry Foulis, 2nd Baronet of Ingleby (c.1607-1643), and had
E15) Sir David Foulis, 3rd Baronet of Ingleby (1633-1695) m. Katherine Watkins (1631-1718, descended from Edward III), and had
E16) HONORA FOULIS, b. c.1663; d. 3 Oct. 1755 York, bur. 8 Oct. 1755 St Nicholas Church, Guisborough; m. 15 Aug. 1682 St Andrew Church, Ingleby Greenhow, Yorkshire, WILLIAM CHALONER of Guisborough Hall, bap. 16 Oct. 1655 St Nicholas Church, Guisborough; bur. there 18 Feb. 1716, son of Sir Edward Challoner of Guisborough Hall (c.1625-1680) & Anne Ingoldsby (d. 1704, descended from Edward I), and had
E17) EDWARD CHALONER of Guisborough Hall, b. 11 July 1683 Ingleby Manor, bap. 16 July 1683 St Andrew Church, Ingleby Greenhow; bur. there 8 Oct. 1737; m. 11 June 1713 St Mary Church, Barnard Castle, Durham, ANNE BOWES (see A9 above)

Cheers, ----Brad

[D. Spencer Hines]

Capital!

Excellent Post, Brad.

I've been on a trip and just saw your post today.

...Will have more to say after I've digested all this most useful
information.

Aloha,

Spencer

"The final happiness of man consists in the contemplation of truth....
This is sought for its own sake, and is directed to no other end beyond
itself."

Saint Thomas Aquinas, [1224/5-1274] _Summa Contra Gentiles_
[c. 1258-1264]

"Brad Verity" wrote in message
news:a4afaa4d-ee4a-4760...@googlegroups.com...

[D. Spencer Hines]

Capital!

Excellent Post, Brad.

I've been on a trip and just saw your post today.

...Will have more to say after I've digested and parsed all this most useful
information.

Aloha,

Spencer

"The final happiness of man consists in the contemplation of truth....
This is sought for its own sake, and is directed to no other end beyond
itself."

Saint Thomas Aquinas, [1224/5-1274] _Summa Contra Gentiles_
[c. 1258-1264]

"Brad Verity" wrote in message
news:a4afaa4d-ee4a-4760...@googlegroups.com...

[D. Spencer Hines]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/tv/2016/05/10/benedict-cumberbatch-extraordinary-bit-of-serendipity-to-be-dres/

Perhaps, Wrong...
------------------------------------

So, IF this analysis pans out, Benedict Cumberbatch has a closer
relationship to Richard III, whom he has played in "The Hollow Crown" BBC
series.

15th great-grandnephew...

...Not just a 2nd or 3rd cousin, 16 times removed.

DSH
-----------------------------------------------------------------

[D. Spencer Hines]

"University of Leicester Professor Kevin Schurer has revealed a link between
Cumberbatch and the king which makes them third cousins 16 times removed.

It is estimated that between one million and 17 million people in the UK are
connected, in some way, to Richard, whose remains were discovered buried
beneath a council car park in Leicester in 2012."

"But Prof Schurer said: "He (Cumberbatch) is more direct because he is a
third cousin. Most other relatives would be much lower order cousins. "I
think the Queen would be a third cousin several times removed as well."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/celebritynews/11325421/Benedict-Cumberbatch-and-Richard-III-are-third-cousins.html
-----------------------------------------------------

Actually, the Queen MAY be a 1st cousin, 14 times removed of Richard III...

...As well as a 7th cousin, once removed, of Benedict Cumberbatch himself.
<g>

DSH

[D. Spencer Hines]

Yes, quite right. The Queen is a 14th great-grandniece of Richard III,
since she is allegedly directly descended from at least three of his
siblings:

Edward IV [Father of Elizabeth of York, who married Henry VII]
Elizabeth, Duchess of Suffolk
George, Duke of Clarence

So this is off the mark in The Telegraph:

"But Prof Schurer said: "He (Cumberbatch) is more direct because he is a
third cousin. Most other relatives would be much lower order cousins. "I
think the Queen would be a third cousin several times removed as well."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/celebritynews/11325421/Benedict-Cumberbatch-and-Richard-III-are-third-cousins.html

There are much closer relationships between the Queen and Richard III than
"a third cousin several times removed"...

...And, Benedict Cumberbatch is allegedly a 15th great-grandnephew of
Richard III, not just a third cousin, as Professor Schurer has him -- but it
is allegedly through an illegitimate linkage to Edward IV, as Brad Verity
has pointed out.

Cumberbatch is also allegedly a 7th cousin, once removed of the Queen -- the
linkage passes through the beloved Queen Mother, to the Queen.

DSH

"The final happiness of man consists in the contemplation of truth....
This is sought for its own sake, and is directed to no other end beyond
itself."

Saint Thomas Aquinas, [1224/5-1274] _Summa Contra Gentiles_
[c. 1258-1264]

wrote in message
news:06a8327a-5591-4697...@googlegroups.com...

She is some kind of great (great-great ...) niece, being a descendant of
Richard III's niece, Elizabeth of York, the wife of Henry VII.

[D. Spencer Hines]

Prince Philip also appears to be a 14th great-grandnephew of Richard III.

[D. Spencer Hines]

"C4) William, 12th Lord Hilton (c.1535-1600) m. Anne Yorke (descended from

Edward I)..." -- Brad Verity

I'm having trouble with this alleged descent of Anne Yorke from Edward I.
Does it run through Mary Seymour, who married Sir Roger Patterdale? I don't
see any parents for that Mary Seymour in the usual semi-reliable web
sources.

Of course, Anne's husband, William, Lord Hilton, is allegedly descended from
Edward IV and his mistress, supposedly Margaret FitzLewis. So, he certainly
descends from Edward I -- but Anne [Yorke] Hilton has a descent from Edward
I of her own?

Cheers, Spencer

"The final happiness of man consists in the contemplation of truth....
This is sought for its own sake, and is directed to no other end beyond
itself."

Saint Thomas Aquinas, [1224/5-1274] _Summa Contra Gentiles_
[c. 1258-1264]

"Brad Verity" wrote in message
news:a4afaa4d-ee4a-4760...@googlegroups.com...

[D. Spencer Hines]

"C4) William, 12th Lord Hilton (c.1535-1600) m. Anne Yorke (descended from

Edward I)..." -- Brad Verity

I'm having trouble with this alleged descent of Anne Yorke from Edward I.
Does it run through Mary Seymour, who married Sir Roger Patterdale? I don't
see any parents for that Mary Seymour in the usual semi-reliable web
sources.

Of course, Anne's husband, William, Lord Hilton, is allegedly descended from
Edward IV and his mistress, supposedly Margaret FitzLewis. So, he certainly
descends from Edward I -- but Anne [Yorke] Hilton has a descent from Edward
I of her own?

Cheers, Spencer

"The final happiness of man consists in the contemplation of truth....
This is sought for its own sake, and is directed to no other end beyond
itself."

Saint Thomas Aquinas, [1224/5-1274] _Summa Contra Gentiles_
[c. 1258-1264]

"Brad Verity" wrote in message
news:a4afaa4d-ee4a-4760...@googlegroups.com...

[Brad Verity]

On Wednesday, September 20, 2017 at 9:04:04 PM UTC-7, D. Spencer Hines wrote:
> I'm having trouble with this alleged descent of Anne Yorke from Edward I.
> Does it run through Mary Seymour, who married Sir Roger Patterdale? I don't
> see any parents for that Mary Seymour in the usual semi-reliable web
> sources.
> Of course, Anne's husband, William, Lord Hilton, is allegedly descended from
> Edward IV and his mistress, supposedly Margaret FitzLewis. So, he certainly
> descends from Edward I -- but Anne [Yorke] Hilton has a descent from Edward
> I of her own?

Yes, here it is.

Edward I had a dau:
1) Elizabeth, Countess of Hereford, who had
2) Lady Eleanor de Bohun (c.1310-1363), who had
3) Lady Petronilla Butler (c.1335-1368), who had
4) Richard, 4th Lord Talbot (by 1361-1396), who had
5) Alice Talbot (c.1393-1436) m. 1) Sir Thomas Barre (c.1390-by 1420), and had
6) Elizabeth Barre (c.1414-1468) m. Sir Edmund Cornewall (c.1382-1435), and had
7) Eleanor Cornewall (c.1435-1519) m. 2) Sir Richard Croft (1429-1509), and had
8) Anne Croft (c.1464-1507) m. Sir Thomas Blount of Kinlet (1456-1524), and had
9) Katherine Blount (d. 1549) m. Richard Smyth of Thames Ditton (d. 1539), and had
10) Anne Smyth (d. 1575) m. Sir John Yorke of Gouthwaite Hall (d. 1569), and had
11) Anne Yorke m. William, 12th Lord Hilton (c.1535-1600, descended from Edward IV)

What's interesting is that this 11-generation line of descent, save for one generation (#4 above) is an entirely female.

Cheers, ------Brad

[D. Spencer Hines]

Provocative.

Do we have a good solid source or sources that:

9) Katherine Blount (d. 1549) m. Richard Smyth of Thames Ditton (d. 1539)

and they are the parents of Ann Smyth who married Sir John Yorke of
Gouthwaite Hall (d. 1569)?

Cheers, Spencer

"The final happiness of man consists in the contemplation of truth....
This is sought for its own sake, and is directed to no other end beyond
itself."

Saint Thomas Aquinas, [1224/5-1274] _Summa Contra Gentiles_
[c. 1258-1264]

"Brad Verity" wrote in message

news:df8a8ada-0b90-46d5...@googlegroups.com...

[John Higgins]

Brad, for #9 above I have the husband of Katherine Blount as Robert [not Richard] Smyth of Thames Ditton. This is confirmed by the memorial brass for the couple in the church of Thames Ditton.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=njp.32101030919474;view=1up;seq=139

Also the information for Sir John Yorke that I've seen says that his wife was the daughter of Richard Smyth "of London". I understand that this could easily be Robert Smyth of Thames Ditton based on geography, but is there specific evidence that this Anne was the daughter of Robert Smyth and Katherine Blount?

[John Higgins]

Correction: The information for Sir John Yorke refers to Robert [not] Richard Smyth of London. Very easy to get the two names confused....

[Brad Verity]

Dear John and Spencer,

I'm in Berlin at the moment on holiday but I do have my database with me. 'Richard' Smyth of Thames Ditton was my mistake when I posted yesterday. He is indeed 'Robert' Smyth in my database.

As for proof that Anne wife of John Yorke was his daughter, I don't seem to have any. I just know it's been that way in my database for years. Don't recall now whether I found it on an online tree like that, or whether I made the link on my own. It seems to work chronologically and geographically. Robert Smyth and Katherine Blount had three daughters, according to their monument brass. I only have two: Elizabeth wife of William Nott and this Anne Yorke. Elizabeth Nott at least is certainly their daughter. Anne will have to be conjecture until evidence surfaces one way or the other.

Cheers, -----Brad

[John Higgins]

Thanks, Brad, for this clarification. I agree with your conclusion that Anne Smyth, wife of Sir John Yorke, will have to remain conjectural for now as to whether her father was Robert Smyth of Thames Ditton. It's too bad, as Anne Smyth is ancestral to Prince William, and this connection would have filled a gap in his ancestry. OTOH Katherine Blount's parents are already ancestral to the Prince through another child, so it's only a small gap.

[D. Spencer Hines]

Dear Brad,

Fair enough. Many thanks for your candor and good sense.

Prost, Spencer

"Genealogy is a practically infinite binary series -- both progressively and
regressively -- propagated by means of a terminal, sexually transmitted
disease, producing a 100% death rate -- which we call Life." -- D. Spencer
Hines - 4 June 1997

"Brad Verity" wrote in message

news:012e80e3-43ed-48c8...@googlegroups.com...

[leslie...@gmail.com]

Benedict Cumberbatch is also a descendant of Charles Chambers of Massachusetts,
through the families of Langdon, Cordis & Russell:

https://famouskin.com/ahnentafel.php?name=74128+benedict+cumberbatch


Charles Chambers has seven lines of descent from King Edward I.


Leslie

[taf]

On Wednesday, August 1, 2018 at 1:29:37 PM UTC-7, leslie...@gmail.com wrote:

> Benedict Cumberbatch is also a descendant of Charles Chambers of
> Massachusetts, through the families of Langdon, Cordis & Russell:

Huh, that makes him a cousin of poet e.e.cummings, also a descendant of the Cordis/Russell marriage (and while we are at it, also of John Blake Cordis, the first officer of the United States Navy to face a court martial).

taf

[ravinma...@yahoo.com]

Interesting. I had been thinking that all descendants of Charles Chambers must be Lowells, but that is apparently not the case (i.e., there are some Russell lines that descend).

[taf]

On Wednesday, August 1, 2018 at 2:27:16 PM UTC-7, taf wrote:
>
> Huh, that makes him a cousin of poet e.e.cummings, also a descendant
> of the Cordis/Russell marriage (and while we are at it, also of John
> Blake Cordis, the first officer of the United States Navy to face a
> court martial).

Let me correct this for the sake of the record - I sort of lost the thread in mid-sentence. John Blake Cordis was the son of the Joseph Cordis/Rebecca Russell marriage and was an ancestral uncle, not cousin, of Cumberbatch.

taf