Proof of Barack Obama's birth in Hawaii on 4 Aug 1961 (news account also 13 Aug 1961)
AaronPa...@gmail.com
In addition to the birth certificate, in the two year old state of
Hawaii,
the birth announcement,
published in the Honolulu Advertiser on Sunday, Aug. 13, 1961:
Mr. and Mrs. Barack H. Obama,
6035 Kalanianaole Hwy., son, Aug. 4.
This settles once and for all the fact of the place and date of birth
of US President Barack Obama, descendant of William I The Conqueror
King of England and Charlemagne.
buzz
Anyone can send a birth announcement in to a paper. You really think the
paper checks with the hospital and asks to see the birth certificate
before printing the announcement? A birth announcement in a paper proves
absolutely nothing about the birth.
Simple-minded dummycrats (the party of the KKK) and liberals...morons
electing morons.
>
James Hogg
I quote:
The irony here is that the person who is so eager to demonstrate
the authenticity of Obama's birth certificate (and the
genuineness of his Carolingian descent) posts his arguments under
multiple false names: Bret, Aaron, Tish, etc.
Can authenticity be proved through fraud?
--
James
Renia
And the parents knew, 48 years ago, that one day, their son would be the
first black President of the United States of America and would
therefore NEED some kind of proof he was born in Hawaii?
Kevin Cunningham
Face it, the birthers are scared. Scared to use that good 'ole word
they used to use constantly, the "N" word. But now is a different
time. So the stupid and scared birthers tried a new racist tack,
declaring that Pres. Obama wasn't born here. This is after supporting
McBush who actually wasn't born here but was a citizen none the less.
Yeah, back in the old days if you were a racist the only thing you had
to have was a hood, now you have to have all this bafflegab. It's
just too much! Birthers aren't the brightest to begin with, now they
have to give up all the stuff they learned early on. Racism.
Now you have to cover up racism by being a birther. What's a racist
to do?????
Simon Fairthorne
-----Original Message-----
From: gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of buzz
Anyone can send a birth announcement in to a paper. You really think the
paper checks with the hospital and asks to see the birth certificate
before printing the announcement? A birth announcement in a paper proves
absolutely nothing about the birth.
>
Quite right, now apply similar arguments to other public figures, eg Abraham
Lincoln
No birth registration, no newspaper announcements so the evidence regarding
his birth is even shakier - and there are only two items which are quoted
First is a letter from Lincoln to Jesse Fell in December 1859 - but this is
from Lincoln himself and he based the story of his birth on hearsay
"evidence" since he was in no fit state to confirm the event at the time.
Obviously issued by him to forestall any problems during the Republican
National convention of May 1860. The only other account was by Peggy Walters
at a picnic in the summer of 1864. Stories carry more weight when introduced
nonchalantly like this. Obviously planted by the Campaign for the
Re-election of the President in order to avoid any awkward questions at the
National Union Convention is Baltimore June 1864.
So there is no real evidence that story of Lincoln being born in Kentucky
was true.
Now I'm not a historian nor American so the next part is conjecture - the
Constitution requires the President either to be "a natural-born citizen, or
a citizen of the United States at the time of this Constitution" (Article
II Section 1)
What does "natural-born citizen" mean?- if it requires birth in one of the
then states what would be his status if he had actually been born in
Missouri or Illinois, neither of which were states at the time of his birth
Some claim that he was actually born in Canada and sneaked in.
If so, then surely any document signed by him in his role of President would
now be invalid - eg 13th Amendment; and the Civil War would be illegal
requiring a re-run
Cheers
Simon
Bert Hyman
wrote:
> Anyone can send a birth announcement in to a paper.
It's especially easy to hop into the wayback machine to get the
announcement into the paper 48 years ago, when it looks like some cover
story needs to be generated.
--
Bert Hyman St. Paul, MN be...@iphouse.com
pj.eva...@usa.net
I heard this announcement was sent out by the state of Hawaii, which
apparently does, or used to do, this routinely.
(It just says 'son', no name.)
royala...@msn.com
< And the parents knew, 48 years ago, that one day, their son would be
the
< first black President of the United States of America and would
< therefore NEED some kind of proof he was born in Hawaii?
Get your facts straight, Renia.
He's not the first black President of the United States.
He's the first mulatto President of the United States.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Simon Fairthorne
nondelivery to buzz who was posting under a false address (I know several
people do, I have no problem with them when they give an indication of what
the true address is, almost everyone does this)
-----Original Message-----
From: gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of buzz
Anyone can send a birth announcement in to a paper. You really think the
paper checks with the hospital and asks to see the birth certificate before
printing the announcement? A birth announcement in a paper proves absolutely
nothing about the birth.
>
taf
participating further in this non-medieval thread.
Denis Beauregard
<fairt...@breathe.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
Please stop posting on that irrelevant subject. Use
soc.genealogy.misc which is more appropriate since this is not about
medieval genealogy.
>Now I'm not a historian nor American so the next part is conjecture - the
>Constitution requires the President either to be "a natural-born citizen, or
>a citizen of the United States at the time of this Constitution" (Article
>II Section 1)
>What does "natural-born citizen" mean?- if it requires birth in one of the
>then states what would be his status if he had actually been born in
>Missouri or Illinois, neither of which were states at the time of his birth
Lincoln is born in 1809, a few years after the purchase of Louisiana
by USA. So Missouri or Illinois were part of USA at that time and all
this is anyway irrelevant to medieval genealogy...
Denis
--
Denis Beauregard - g�n�alogiste �m�rite (FQSG)
Les Fran�ais d'Am�rique du Nord - www.francogene.com/genealogie--quebec/
French in North America before 1722 - www.francogene.com/quebec--genealogy/
Sur c�d�rom � 1770 - On CD-ROM to 1770
Christine Czarnecki
And of course, seeing ahead to the future, they chose to name their son Barack Hussein Obama II, the perfect all-American name for a presidential candidate.
I�believe our president's racial heritage is technically described these days as biracial, not mulatto, but to say that he is not our first black president is not accurate.�
I recall reading that the�average African-American has about 15% white ancestry, and found that when they visited South Africa, that they were classified as Colored, like Indians and Pakistanis, and not Black.
My understanding is that unless you pay for a more expansive (and expensive) one, the birth announcements in the newspaper are pulled from county birth records and are not placed by parents themselves.� I know for sure this is so for death announcements.
Christine
-------------------------------
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Tony Hoskins
"It's Certifiable: the Last Word on President Obama's place of birth" [Wall Street Journal, 30 July 2009].
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204619004574320190095246658.html
Andrew Chaplin
news:249f3b53-924a-43fe...@m3g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
----------------------------------
----------------------------------
When my father put the announcement of my birth in the RCN's _Crowsnest_ a
month or so after my birth, all it said was "a son." I wasn't christened until
the following month. It may have been a frequently-used approach back then,
especially if parents were still debating the name.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)
Jack Linthicum
That is a British definition, An American one is worse than the Nazi's
Jewish Grandmother. You have to "pass" for white.
royala...@msn.com
wrote:
< I believe our president's racial heritage is technically described
these days as biracial, not mulatto, but to say that he is not our
first black president is not accurate.
<
< Christine
The term mulatto is specific and accurate. But, if you prefer
biracial, that's fine with me.
Whatever term you use, Barack Obama is not the first "black" president
of the United States.
President Obama, President Truman, and I all share a descent from the
very "white" immigrant, Mareen Duvall, of Maryland.
Renia
Depends on your point of view. According to some black people, if a
mixed race person has black blood in them, they are black.
Renia
Except we don't have mulattos in GB. We have mixed race. Mulatto isn't
one of our expressions. We leave that to the Americans, I think.
Christine Czarnecki
Cousin Douglas,
I am also a descendant of Mareen Duvall, plus many other gateway immigrants, as are, I am sure,�not only everybody posting here,�but also�millions of others.
Singularly, Pres. Obama is also descended from another gateway immigrant, Barack H. Obama, Sr., Ph.D., his father, a member of the Luo tribe of Kenya.�
Why on earth do you insist that Pres. Obama is not black?
The terms mulatto, octoroon and quadroon are artifacts of American slavery, segregation and Jim Crow laws.� In Plessy v. Ferguson, the issue was that a man, Homer Plessy, who was 1/8th black, could not sit in a train car reserved for whites.� This�is the exemplar of�the one-drop rule, that any African ancestry made one black.�
These terms should be relegated to to the historical and linguistic�file cabinet�as remnants of some of our American history, ones that deserve to be noted but not continued in propogation.� These racial terms are artificial in a biological sense as well as a genealogical one.�
Who are we to say how a person identifies himself regarding his racial and ethnic background?� Henry Louis Gates, Jr., chair of Harvard's W.E.B. Du Bois Institute of African and African-American Research, discovered that he not only had a "white" Irish Y chromosome (he is a descendant, apparently, of Niall of the Nine Hostages), but also has a "white" English maternal mitochondrial DNA profile.� Apparently, his maternal line colonial ancestor was probably the�daughter of�a black slave and a white indentured servant.� The irony of this for a man who literally has made his professional career about the African-American experience, including his African-American experience, is not lost on him. But does this genetic information make him white, or is it acceptable to us that he still consider himself black?� Who are you and I to say?
My understanding is that the census forms will have boxes for citizens to check as many races that apply to them.�
�
----- Original Message ----
From: "royala...@msn.com" <royala...@msn.com>
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Thursday, August 6, 2009 12:47:04 PM
Subject: Re: Proof of Barack Obama's birth in Hawaii on 4 Aug 1961 (news account also 13 Aug 1961)
JD
In Spanish, 1593, before America was founded,
Main Entry: mu·lat·to
Pronunciation: \mə-ˈla-(ˌ)tō, mu̇-, myu̇-, -ˈlä-\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural mu·lat·toes or mu·lat·tos
Etymology: Spanish mulato, from Latin mulus
Date: 1593
1 : the first-generation offspring of a black person and a white
person
2 : a person of mixed white and black ancestry
JD
JD
wrote:
> Cousin Douglas,
>
> I am also a descendant of Mareen Duvall, plus many other gateway immigrants, as are, I am sure, not only everybody posting here, but also millions of others.
>
> Singularly, Pres. Obama is also descended from another gateway immigrant, Barack H. Obama, Sr., Ph.D., his father, a member of the Luo tribe of Kenya.
>
> Why on earth do you insist that Pres. Obama is not black?
>
> The terms mulatto, octoroon and quadroon are artifacts of American slavery, segregation and Jim Crow laws. In Plessy v. Ferguson, the issue was that a man, Homer Plessy, who was 1/8th black, could not sit in a train car reserved for whites. This is the exemplar of the one-drop rule, that any African ancestry made one black.
>
> These terms should be relegated to to the historical and linguistic file cabinet as remnants of some of our American history, ones that deserve to be noted but not continued in propogation. These racial terms are artificial in a biological sense as well as a genealogical one.
Not so, the word is of Spanish origin, 1593, before America's
founding:
Main Entry: mu·lat·to
Pronunciation: \mə-ˈla-(ˌ)tō, mu̇-, myu̇-, -ˈlä-\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural mu·lat·toes or mu·lat·tos
Etymology: Spanish mulato, from mulo mule, from Latin mulus
Stanley Moore
"Renia" <re...@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote in message
news:h5fhd9$tv6$2...@news.eternal-september.org...
There is, or used to be a number of fine distinctions of mixed race. It was
especially used in New Orleans. There are octaroon, quadroons etc. See wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadroon
These terms have mostly passed from current usage though mulatto is still
often heard. President Obama is indeed a mulatto. Take care
--
Stanley L. Moore
"The belief in a supernatural
source of evil is not necessary;
men alone are quite capable
of every wickedness."
Joseph Conrad
royala...@msn.com
>
> Not so, the word is of Spanish origin, 1593, before America's
> founding:
>
> Main Entry: mu·lat·to
> Pronunciation: \mə-ˈla-(ˌ)tō, mu̇-, myu̇-, -ˈlä-\
> Function: noun
> Inflected Form(s): plural mu·lat·toes or mu·lat·tos
> Etymology: Spanish mulato, from mulo mule, from Latin mulus
> Date: 1593
> 1 : the first-generation offspring of a black person and a white
> person
> 2 : a person of mixed white and black ancestry
>
> JD
The above definition is found in the current Merriam-Webster online
dictionary.
As such, the word would certainly be valid to use for my cousin,
President Obama. He is the first-generation offspring of a black
person and a white person.
Christine Czarnecki
Denotation is one thing, connotation another.
The terms mulatto and negro have less than positive connotations in contemporary American conversation.� Biracial and black are the terms that are preferred by persons of those description, and they should be the ones to decide what they are called.
And the term mulatto is not often heard here in the United States.
�
----- Original Message ----
From: Stanley Moore <smoo...@comcast.net>
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Thursday, August 6, 2009 3:49:47 PM
Subject: Re: Proof of Barack Obama's birth in Hawaii on 4 Aug 1961 (news account also 13 Aug 1961)
-------------------------------
Tony Hoskins
These judgements are inevitably subjective; therefore in my view to be avoided. We do not know with any kind of comprehensiveness the sweep of ancestry in all directions of either his father or his mother. Who knows what lurks in the myriad unknown lines of ancestry of both his parents? He is "mixed", certainly, though he *appears* superficially (based on insufficient data) to qualify for the term mulatto. But, so what?
Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
Sonoma County Archivist
Sonoma County History and Genealogy Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404
Renia
Indeed, but it's not an expression used in the UK, except with reference
to those mulatos in the history of the USA.
taf
absolutely nothing to do with medieval genealogy.
Christine Czarnecki
After considering our conversations on this thread, I decided to ask someone who is more of an expert in the field of linguistics and the usage of the modern English language.
I emailed Geoffrey Nunberg, a professor at the University of California at Berkeley's School of Information.��Nunberg is a nationally noted author who has done extensive work on semantics and the social and cultural implications of language.� He is also the emeritus chair of the usage panel of the American Heritage Dictionary.
I asked him if he had any archived commentary on the�usage of the words, mulatto vs. biracial vs. black.
Here is his response:
"I haven't written anything on this but I think I'd stay away from "mulatto" unless I were writing a historical novel. Very historical. Black and biracial aren't mutually exclusive: the first is a matter of perceptions and the second of geneology."
----- Original Message ----
From: Tony Hoskins <hos...@sonoma.lib.ca.us>
To: royala...@msn.com; gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Thursday, August 6, 2009 4:26:47 PM
Subject: Re: Proof of Barack Obama's birth in Hawaii on 4 Aug 1961 (news account also 13 Aug 1961)
-------------------------------
Surreyman
That's all of us then ...........
Surreyman
royala...@msn.com
wrote:
< After considering our conversations on this thread, I decided to ask
someone who is more of an expert in the field of linguistics and the
usage of the modern English language.
<
< I emailed Geoffrey Nunberg, a professor at the University of
California at Berkeley's School of Information. Nunberg is a
nationally noted author who has done extensive work on semantics and
the social and cultural implications of language. He is also the
emeritus chair of the usage panel of the American Heritage Dictionary.
<
< I asked him if he had any archived commentary on the usage of the
words, mulatto vs. biracial vs. black.
<
< Here is his response:
<
< "I haven't written anything on this but I think I'd stay away from
"mulatto" unless I were writing a historical novel. Very historical.
Black and biracial aren't mutually exclusive: the first is a matter of
perceptions and the second of geneology."
It appears your "expert" never heard of Merriam-Webster
dictionary !!!!! He also doesn't know how to spell the word,
genealogy.
JD
> The racial charaterization of the current President of the USA has
> absolutely nothing to do with medieval genealogy.
Except he is mistakenly called black when in fact his mother was
white and descends from European royalty back to William I of England
and Charlemagne before that. His ancestry entitles him to more than
honorable mention in threads about medieval genealogy.
JD
taf
What a person living today is called is irrelevant to medieval
genealogy. That he descends from medieval people makes him no
different than anyone else living today, all of them off-topic. I
descend from medieval people, and that doesn't make all of the things
people call me relevant, whether they are right or wrong in their
characterization.
taf
Francisco Tavares de Almeida
sapnish 'mulato' of 1593 but, just for clearness 'mulato' with the
said latin root was a portuguese word more than one century before so
the spanish came from portuguese, not latin.
There is a very old portuguese saying: 'God created men but the
portuguese created 'mulato' (of course we would never say portuguese
created 'mulatto' but it would not be civil to explain why).
Btw I have long gave up to understand american logic but if 'race' is
a bad connoted word why is 'biracial' well accepted?
Regards,
Francisco
(Portugal)
P.S. - The portuguese word mulato is medieval ...
F.
Tony Hoskins
a bad connoted word why is 'biracial' well accepted?"
Point well taken. No answer except that "race" in America is a subject
devoid of any connection to reality, largely because of cultural
(increasingly "institutionalized") proscriptions on dispassionate
analysis and freedom of speech.
royala...@msn.com
Race is not a "cultural proscription." My race is white.
Tony Hoskins
proscriptions on dispassionate analysis and freedom of speech.
Race is not a "cultural proscription." My race is white.
---
Huh?! Use your Merriam-Webster on "proscription" and then re-read what
I said in context.
royala...@msn.com
> Huh?! Use your Merriam-Webster on "proscription" and then re-read what
> I said in context.
This is how Merriam-Webster defines "proscrption":
* Main Entry: pro·scrip·tion
* Pronunciation: \prō-ˈskrip-shən\
* Function: noun
* Etymology: Middle English proscripcion, from Latin
proscription-, proscriptio, from proscribere
* Date: 14th century
1 : the act of proscribing : the state of being proscribed
2 : an imposed restraint or restriction : prohibition
END OF QUOTE.
My comment: Race is not an "imposed restraint or restriction." Any
more than the words "mulatto" or "biracial" are.
Unless you live in a politically correct world. Then race doesn't
exist.
Ford Mommaerts-Browne
person."
I wish that I had known that all of this was coming up. My nephew would
have been interested to know that his racial mix is so fascinating. He
classes himself as Flemish, (not Belgian, though he is also of Wallon
descent).
lostcopper
I would request that you read some of my earlier posts in similar-
named threads. Race, indeed, is cultural rather than biological. In
biology "race" refers to "subspecies"; there are no modern human
subspecies. All of us are a single "race". I am not even meaning that
in a politically correct sense; it is biological fact. The human
genome project proved this; our populations are not sufficiently
differentiated from one another to rise to the level of being separate
races.
The use of skin color, as in the assertion that one is "white", is an
historical fabrication based on economic and political pressures,
mainly in the Americas, where colonizers found it expedient to find
ways to classify themselves as different from both those they were
colonizing and those from competing interests (as in the "non-white"
Irish who became "white" in the U.S. after they stopped supported the
anti-slavery movement). In Spanish colonial times, one could buy a
certificate of "whiteness" for 500 reales no matter what their skin
color.
"Race" SEEMS real to us because our society has created certain
definitions for various purposes (see above) and we were socialized
that way. We grew up with our society's notions and are familiar with
them, even if we argue against them later in life. You could only
refer to yourself as "white" by noting that it is not literally true
(you are not the color of a marshmallow, are you?), not biologically
true (since no "white " race exists sufficiently different from
everyone else in the world to warrant the term), and that it is only
true because people around you believe it to be true in some
fundamental kind of way that is historical and cultural in nature.
You consider yourself "white" and, no doubt, you are surrounded by
people who would agree with you. After all, people everywhere do not
go about with academic discussions circulating in their heads (except
we, on this list, of course). As they see each other on the street,
they do not think in terms of what gene pool or DNA marker a person
comes, but in terms of what they have learned since childhood about
how to describe people - even if they do not discriminate in how they
regard and treat people. I am sure that any American seeing you
walking down the street would identify you as "white". But that does
not make it true in terms of biological reality. It only means that
your society has agreen upon that description for people who look like
you in terms of skin color and, probably, hair texture, eye shape &
color, facial features, etc. This happens so quickly that we are not
fully aware of it; it is that ingrained.
I am in another boat entirely. I have been identified by various
people in their instant evaluation as Jewish, Middle Eastern,
Polynesian, Mexican (I assume they meant "mestizo"), and Gypsy. In
fact, one parent is full-blood Native American, the other is mixed
Native American and northern European. The northern European part is
what brought me to this list. What do I look like? I look like a
combination of my parents but not identifiably and clearly one thing
or another. I used to always be telling my students of European
ancestry to relax about race; their "uptightness" and desire not to be
identified as "racist" was holding them back from confronting the
racism in American society. I used to like to tell the story of how I
bought a "Nordic Track" for working out but it must have been
defective; I am still short and dark. Best, Bronwen
D. Stussy
news:mailman.663.12495821...@rootsweb.com...
> Had been hoping this utterly off-topic discussion would go away. Perhaps
this might help:
>
> "It's Certifiable: the Last Word on President Obama's place of birth"
[Wall Street Journal, 30 July 2009].
>
>
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204619004574320190095246658.html
The document purporting to be the Hawaiian CoLB is not authentic. It is
MISSING A REQUIRED ELEMENT: The attestation (or statement and signature by
a representative of the certifying authority). Without such a signature
(which by law may be manual or rubber-stamped), it is NOT a certificate and
therefore verifies nothing. The press seems to ignore this.
Definition: Certificate
1) A document testifying to a fact, qualification, or promise.
2) A written statement legally authenticated.
The document, as presented, may bear the seal of the State and list certain
facts, but there is no attestation as to their correctness by a
representative of the issuing authority of the State. Therefore, it is not
a certificate, failing to meet the definition of such. It is facially
invalid. It is legally hearsay; nothing more.
If this document were really issued by the State of Hawaii and isn't a
forgery, then Obama needs to return it so they can add the missing element.
Without that element, it's not facially valid. It's worthless. Simply
stating it's valid isn't the same. The attestation is made under penalty
of perjury; an oral statement to the press doesn't carry that weight or
legal effect. As Hawaiian officials keep saying it's valid, it should be
easy for them to fix the document (or reissue it) and make it facially
valid.
I also note that a "certification of live birth" simply means that there
exists another document that lists the actual facts of birth. In genealogy
as well as courts of law, we want the BEST evidence available. The best
evidence is the original document that the CoLB refers to.
In performing genealogical work, we [should] all know the difference
between a mere record (hearsay) and a certified record.
However, even certified documents can be wrong!
For example, my grandparents, on my mother's certified BC, listed their
places of birth as Colorado and Virginia, when their marriage license from
the year before lists California and South Dakota, their real places of
birth (verified via other documents). As they are deceased, we can't ask
them why or how this happened. All I could do is confirm that the original
documents at the County Recorder's office do in fact have this
contradictory information (and both documents are at the same county
office). However, in this case, the actual facts don't have a U.S.
Constitutional effect as the release of Obama's BC would (to meet the
qualifications of the office he was elected to).
lostcopper
> "Tony Hoskins" <hosk...@sonoma.lib.ca.us> wrote in message
>
> news:mailman.663.12495821...@rootsweb.com...> Had been hoping this utterly off-topic discussion would go away. Perhaps
> this might help:
>
> > "It's Certifiable: the Last Word on President Obama's place of birth"
>
> [Wall Street Journal, 30 July 2009].
>
My father never had a birth certificate even though he was born in
Arizona. My step-father had to get a "delayed certificate of birth"
even though he was born in California. The doctor failed to sign my
own birth certificate and I was born in California. You are part of
this berserker group looking for anything, however valid or idiotic,
to make Obama "seem" alien. Try looking into the "proper" birth
certificates for the presidents before him; let's see how many "rise"
to your level of definition. Oh, but of course, no one bothered. They
didn't *look* different from those who believe themselves to be "true"
Americans. When some of us gave the opinion that Bush stole both
elections and insisted on an examination of the voting machines, the
right wing said "get over it. you lost." Okay, your turn.
taf
This thread is completely off topic.
It always has been.
Stop.
Now.
Christine Czarnecki
----- Forwarded Message ----
From: Christine Czarnecki <czar...@sbcglobal.net>
To: D. Stussy <rep...@newsgroups.kd6lvw.ampr.org>
Sent: Monday, August 10, 2009 5:06:28 PM
Subject: Re: Proof of Barack Obama's birth in Hawaii on 4 Aug 1961(news account also 13 Aug 1961)
Regarding your grandparents' incorrect places of birth on your mother's birth certificate, that is useful to you as a genealogist, but it is at best a secondary record for your grandparents' places of birth.
Your mother's birth certificate is only a primary record for the date and location of her birth, not those of her parents.
The same thing happens on death certificates.� It is primary only in regards to the place�and location of death, and often time, incorrect for the birthplace of the deceased and/or his or her parents.
Perhaps you can submit a correction to the county clerk to correct the places of birth of your grandparents.� I know that county clerks here in California do accept corrections and attach the corrections to copies of the certificate requested later.� My father's death certificate had three errors that my mother corrected with the county clerk's office.
-------------------------------
wjho...@aol.com
comments to everyone else to be quiet. Isn't that ironic?
-----Original Message-----
From: taf <t...@clearwire.net>
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Mon, Aug 10, 2009 4:53 pm
Subject: Re: Proof of Barack Obama's birth in Hawaii on 4 Aug 1961(news
account also 13 Aug 1961)
It always has been.
Stop.
Now.
-------------------------------
taf
> Taf, you yourself have made this thread 14% larger by your constant
> comments to everyone else to be quiet. Isn't that ironic?
No.
Now knock it off, everyone.
wjho...@aol.com
-----Original Message-----
From: taf <t...@clearwire.net>
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Mon, Aug 10, 2009 7:37 pm
Subject: Re: Proof of Barack Obama's birth in Hawaii on 4 Aug 1961(news
account also 13 Aug 1961)
No.
-------------------------------
AaronPa...@gmail.com
> Ni! Ni! Ni! I shall continue to say Ni! until you bring us a shrubbery!
http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/20090728/NEWS01/907280345/Hawaii+officials+confirm+Obama’s+original+birth+certificate+still+exists
In November 2008, The Advertiser reported that the first published
mention of the future president appeared in a Sunday Advertiser birth
announcement that ran on Aug. 13, 1961:
"Mr. and Mrs. Barack H. Obama, 6085 Kalanianaole Hwy., son, Aug. 4."
The identical announcement ran the following day in the Honolulu Star-
Bulletin.
Birthers wave off those birth announcements, saying that Obama family
members 48 years ago could have phoned in false information to both
newspapers.
Such vital statistics, however, were not sent to the newspapers by the
general public but by the Health Department, which received the
information directly from hospitals, Okubo said.
Birth announcements from the public ran elsewhere in both papers and
usually included information such as the newborn's name, weight and
time of birth.
"Take a second and think about that," wrote Robert Farley of the St.
Petersburg (Fla.) Times' Pulitzer Prize winning Web site
PoliticFact.com on July 1. "In order to phony those notices up, it
would have required the complicity of the state Health Department and
two independent newspapers — on the off chance this unnamed child
might want to one day be president of the United States."
For sooth: 3 mentions within days of the birth of Barack Obama, in
Honolulu, in an official birth certificate,
in the Honolulu Sunday Advertiser and in the Honolulu Star-Bulletin.
Put it to rest, and attest, as they say in journalism, allegation and
two back-ups make a fact.
aaron
D. Stussy
news:8f24d3be-e641-494d...@g1g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
How so? When any of us do research, we can come across documents and
genealogies that themselves are suspect or fraudulent. Granted, this topic
is more appropriate for the ".methods" newsgroup, but I've already tried to
redirect the conversation there without success.
D. Stussy
news:mailman.75.124994965...@rootsweb.com...
> ...
> Perhaps you can submit a correction to the county clerk to correct the
places of birth of your grandparents. I know that county clerks here in
California do accept corrections and attach the corrections to copies of
the certificate requested later. My father's death certificate had three
errors that my mother corrected with the county clerk's office.
I know quite well how to file corrections for such. That's not the point,
nor did I ask for help on such.
The point was: The state or county agencies that recorded such did not
then and do not now verify the correctness of any of the information on the
document, nor do they check for consistency with other documents in their
possession.
All certification adds is that it's a true and correct copy of the document
that was filed. The original filing can still be in error or be
fraudulent. However, certification is usually a step closer to the truth
and will hold up in court absent information that suggests it is incorrect.
In Obama's case, what he purports to have released is an uncertified (or
improperly certified) document that simply says that another document
exists. Granted, that's a step closer toward a Hawaiian birth than a
Kenyan birth, but we're still not there yet. We don't know which one of
the three types the original is - and some of those types are problematic
when it comes to the Constitutional requirement. Due to the conflicting
stories, we need more information: Something that affirmatively proves one
over the other (a hospital generated certificate would do that) or
something that rules out its alternative. To date, we have neither of
these.
If I were researching him, I would have to list him with BOTH locations and
identify the sources of both.
taf
> "taf" <t...@clearwire.net> wrote in message
>
> news:8f24d3be-e641-494d...@g1g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
>
> > This thread is completely off topic.
>
> > It always has been.
> > Stop.
> > Now.
>
> How so?
The key is in the name of the newsgroup - medieval. While different
people define the temporal boundaries differently, it is never
stretched to include events in 1961. While medieval genealogy
includes the evaluation of the reliability of documents, it involves
none of the issues being discussed here. If you want to discuss the
issues of medieval documentation, please initiate a new thread.
taf
Christine Czarnecki
Please read the following two web links in full, then tell us if you'd really list Obama's birth as both Hawai'i and Kenya.
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html
http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/feature/2009/08/03/birthers_kenya/index.html
The evidence all points to a valid Hawaiian birth certificate and a forged Kenyan one, and not even a good forgery at that.
----- Original Message ----
From: D. Stussy <sp...@bde-arc.ampr.org>
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Monday, August 10, 2009 10:49:05 PM
Subject: Re: Proof of Barack Obama's birth in Hawaii on 4 Aug 1961(newsaccount also 13 Aug 1961)
-------------------------------
wjho...@aol.com
essentially that the kenyan one does *not*appear to be a forgery at
all. It you read it all the way to the bottom of the article.
-----Original Message-----
From: Christine Czarnecki <czar...@sbcglobal.net>
To: D. Stussy <rep...@newsgroups.kd6lvw.ampr.org>;
gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Mon, Aug 10, 2009 11:25 pm
Subject: Re: Proof of Barack Obama's birth in Hawaii on 4 Aug
1961(newsaccount also 13 Aug 1961)
Please read the following two web links in full, then tell us if you'd
really
list Obama's birth as both Hawai'i and Kenya.
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html
http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/feature/2009/08/03/birthers_kenya/index.html
The evidence all points to a valid Hawaiian birth certificate and a
forged
Kenyan one, and not even a good forgery at that.
----- Original Message ----
From: D. Stussy <sp...@bde-arc.ampr.org>
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Monday, August 10, 2009 10:49:05 PM
Subject: Re: Proof of Barack Obama's birth in Hawaii on 4 Aug
1961(newsaccount
also 13 Aug 1961)
something that rules out its alternative.A
0 To date, we have neither of
these.
If I were researching him, I would have to list him with BOTH locations
and
identify the sources of both.
-------------------------------
w
> In Obama's case, what he purports to have released is an uncertified (or
> improperly certified) document that simply says that another document
> exists. Granted, that's a step closer toward a Hawaiian birth than a
> Kenyan birth, but we're still not there yet.
Occam's razor says you were not even born. Certainly not with a
brain.
Obama did not cause his birth certificate to lie in a vault in Hawaii,
nor
for 2 separate newspaper accounts to be printed within days of his
birth.
Where are your wits? The importance of all this: nobody has any
interest
in medieval genealogy except s/he seeks ancestral lineages of self.
Few
historians are interested in this stuff unless the subject be royalty
or a
President of the United States, right?
WC
D. Stussy
news:9ad379ca-6ed9-48f0...@k30g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...
------------
If you had bothered to look at the LAW in effect at the time in Hawaii,
you'd come to a much different conclusion. Hawaii permitted foreign births
to be registered.
w
> "w" <WILeeLcoJOteg...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Q: Who are Barack Obama's parents?
http://www.keepandshare.com/htm/biographies/barack_obama_biography.php
A: Barack Obama was born in Hawaii on August 4, 1961, to Barack Obama,
Sr.
and Ann Dunham. His parents met while attending the University of
Hawaii, where
his father was enrolled as a foreign student. Barack's parents
eventually divorced,
and after his mother remarried, he lived in Indonesia for a time
before returning
to Hawaii to live with his grandparents.
So, tell the world about the college students at the University of
Hawaii, who have
a child in Honolulu while attending college, living there, which is
noted in a birth
certificate and two local newspapers, and demonstrate you have checked
their
addresses while in college leading up to Barack Obama's birth, and
demonstrate
you have checked their college records when they attended classes and
no longer
were enrolled and attending classes, and demonstrate why on God's
Earth they
should assume the inordinate cost of travel to have a child in Africa
in the middle
of all this, and demonstrate against Occam's Razor your documented
proof other
than silly conspiratorial nonsense that what took place in a
particular time is not
as logical as your brain-dead theory?
WC
lostcopper
>
> - Show quoted text -
I think we should demand that these nuts produce the birth
certificates with additional proof of validity for all of the
presidents in US history. Apparently no one suspected anything fishy
about all those "white" men who happened to resemble their notion of
what an "American" leader looks like. The whole "birther" movement is
not only nutty, but racist. They listen to no news sources other than
the right wing, expose themselves to no other dialogue. If Rush
Limbaugh sets your parameters for reality, you're going to be both
misinformed and warped. The right wing can't accept the idea of free
speech when the speaker disagrees with them, yet are the first to jump
up and scream if they think someone is not focused on them. Obviously
the "birthers" are connected to the small but loud and disruptive
right wingers who are trying to prevent anything other than their
point of view from being heard on the news.
Janet Crawford
Snip
> "the small but loud and disruptive
> right wingers who are trying to prevent anything other than their
> point of view from being heard on the news."
They are the "Screamers". They are also the ones who think Obama will
Kill Granny, so the "Deathers". The Birthers, the Screamers and the
Deathers are all one and the same, and all -someone needs to call them
by their real name - bigots.
Janet
w
> I think we should demand that these nuts produce the birth
> certificates with additional proof of validity for all of the
> presidents in US history. Apparently no one suspected anything fishy
> about all those "white" men who happened to resemble their notion of
> what an "American" leader looks like. The whole "birther" movement is
> not only nutty, but racist. They listen to no news sources other than
> the right wing, expose themselves to no other dialogue. If Rush
> Limbaugh sets your parameters for reality, you're going to be both
> misinformed and warped. The right wing can't accept the idea of free
> speech when the speaker disagrees with them, yet are the first to jump
> up and scream if they think someone is not focused on them. Obviously
> the "birthers" are connected to the small but loud and disruptive
> right wingers who are trying to prevent anything other than their
> point of view from being heard on the news.
Genealogy is a tricky activity, demanding research in many places
on now on the internet, and in labs with DNA analysis. Henry L.
Gates, Jr.,
in Jan 09 published In Search Of Our Roots, and points out in his book
that 19.6 percent of African americans have 25 percent European
ancestry (the stuff of medieval genealogy). In other words, one
grandparent in every 1 in 5 ATs of African Americans was other
than of African origin. The case for Barack Obama is not unusual,
but the norm. Gates also points out that voyages across the Atlantic
from 1514 to 1866 created these mixed ancestral challenges, and
the history dates back to the Spanish and Portuguese discoveries
in America, and the interracial history of the Iberian peninsula since
the year One goes without question. Gates' book is a primer for
African Americans interested in genealogy and will be a useful
tool on the shelves of medieval genealogists.
WC
Ford Mommaerts-Browne
times), I have created a new rule, in my toolbox, to delete any messages
with this subject line. If the rest of us did this, maybe the thread will
go away. Hope & pray!
Life is more accurately measured by the lives you touch, than by the things
you acquire.
>
aaronpa...@gmail.com
wrote:
> Life is more accurately measured by the lives you touch, than by the things
> you acquire.
As a final word on a worthy topic, it is amazing to me to if "life is
more accurately
measured by the lives you touch," which seems a reasonable sig file
motto, then
those who value that sentiment ought to have touched this thread as
genealogists,
and scholars, rather than carping fools. The thread hung on the truth
and validity
of time and place of birth, and admittedly belonged on
methods.genealogy. But,
inasmuch as I do not post there, and do not wish to post there, I
posted this where
it belonged, again, inasmuch as the *Life* in question owes it
existence to a maternal
ancestral lineage back to European royalty and much medieval
personages who
lives touch this list, and scholarship surely is of the essence of
this message forum,
else its members ignore their own credo:
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html
In addition to the birth certificate, in the two year old state of
Hawaii,
the birth announcement,
published in the Honolulu Advertiser on Sunday, Aug. 13, 1961:
Mr. and Mrs. Barack H. Obama,
6035 Kalanianaole Hwy., son, Aug. 4.
This settles once and for all the fact of the place and date of birth
of US President Barack Obama, descendant of William I The Conqueror
King of England and Charlemagne.
If any wish to comment further on the FACT of the place and date of
birth
of the *Life* of Barack Obama, so be it. Otherwise, accept the FACT
and
let it lie for history to find on genealogy medieval where it
belonged, and IS!
aaron