New Descent from King Henry II through Herdeburgh, Boteler, le Strange, & Longford families
Douglas Richardson
In 1275, Edward le Boteler, rector of Weston-Turville, co. Buckingham,
died without issue, leaving as his co-heirs his four sisters or their
descendants. Two of the sisters were Ankaret, wife of John le
Strange and Thomas de Ferrers (ancestress of the le Strange family of
Blackmere) and Alice, wife of Nicholas Longford (ancestress of the
Longford, Montgomery, Clarell, Fitzwilliam, and many other families).
The two sisters have many descendants, including many people who post
here on the the newsgroup.
Edward Boteler and his four sisters were the children of William le
Boteler, of Wem and Oversley, Shropshire, by his 2nd wife, Ela de
Herdeburgh. Previously the Herdeburgh family was not thought to
possess any royal ancestry, however, it appears that Ela de Herdeburgh
does in fact descend from King Henry II through the Longespee family.
Proof of the connection to the Longespee family is found in a papal
petition dated 1352, whereby William de Clinton, Earl of Huntingdon,
requested that his nephew, Edward le Boteler, be made canon and
prebend of Lincoln. On the surface, it is difficult to explain how
Edward le Boteler could be nephew to William de Clinton (a Longespee
descendant). However, reviewing the Clinton and Boteler-Herdeburgh
family trees, the only possible way for Edward le Boteler to be the
Earl's nephew would be if Edward le Boteler's mother, Ela de
Herdeburgh, was older half sister of Earl William de Clinton.
As for Ela de Herdeburgh, mother of Edward le Boteler, she can be
readily identified as the daughter and co-heiress of Roger de
Herdeburgh, son and heir apparent of Hugh de Herdeburgh, of Great
Harborough, co. Warwick and Weston Turville, co. Buckingham. Ela's
father, Roger de Herdeburgh, evidently died about 1184, as a young
man. Previously, the name of Roger de Herdeburgh's wife was not
known. However, it would appear that she was Ida de Odingsells,
eldest daughter of William de Odingsells, of Maxstoke, co. Warwick.
Ida subsequently married about 1290 to John de Clinton, 1st Lord
Clinton, of Maxstoke. By her Clinton marriage, Ida was mother of two
known sons, John de Clinton [2nd Lord Clinton] and William de Clinton
[Earl of Huntingdon].
For further evidence of the Herdeburgh-Clinton-Odingsells connection,
it may be noted that the names Ela and Ida ran in families descended
from the Longespee family. Ela de Hereburgh herself bore the name,
Ela, and she bestowed the name Ida on her second daughter.
- - - - - - -
The following immigrants (and probably many others) descend from Ela
de Herdeburgh:
1. Robert Abell (twice).
2. Grace Chetwode.
3. Anne & Katherine Marbury.
4. Richard More, of Mayflower.
5. John Oxenbridge.
6. Grey & Diana Skipwith.
- - - - - - - -
The new descent from King Henry II is presented below:
l. Henry II, King of England, by a mistress, Ida.
2. William Longespee, Earl of Salisbury, married Ela Fitz Patrick.
3. Ida Longespee, married Walter Fitz Robert, Baron of Little Dunmow,
Essex.
4. Ela Fitz Walter, married William de Odingsells.
5. Ida de Odingsells, married (1st) Roger de Herdeburgh; (2nd) John de
Clinton.
6. Ela de Herdeburgh, married (1st) Walter de Hopton, Knt.; (2nd)
William le Boteler, of Wem and Oversley, Shropshire.
For further details of this descent, see the forthcoming 3rd edition
of Plantagenet Ancestry.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Tim Powys-Lybbe
royala...@msn.com (Douglas Richardson) wrote:
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> In 1275, Edward le Boteler, rector of Weston-Turville, co. Buckingham,
> died without issue, leaving as his co-heirs his four sisters or their
> descendants.
Thanks for this, very interesting.
<snip>
>
> For further details of this descent, see the forthcoming 3rd edition
> of Plantagenet Ancestry.
I can't wait!
regards,
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a patchwork of bygones: http://powys.org
Douglas Richardson
In my previous post, I stated that Edward le Boteler, clerk, died in
1275. Actually Edward le Boteler, clerk, died in 1375 or 1376
(sources vary).
The specific reference for William de Clinton's papal petition on
behalf of his nephew, Edward le Boteler, is:
Calendar of Papal Registers: Petitions to the Pope, vol. 1 A.D.
1342-1419, ed. by W.H. Bliss, published 1896, pg. 237. The published
abstract of the petition reads as follows:
"1352. The earl of Huntingdon. On behalf of his nephew, Edward
Botilere, for the canonry and prebend of Lincoln, void by the
consecration of Thomas Fastolf, bishop of St. Davids. Granted.
Avignon. Id. Nov."
In addition to his four sisters, Edward le Boteler appears to have had
an older half-brother, Walter de Hopton, who is ancestral to the
Corbet family of Moreton Corbet, Shropshire.
Those interested in the ancestry of Ela (de Herdeburgh) (de Hopton) le
Boteler may wish to consult the interesting article on her family
which appeared in the Genealogists' Magazine, 12 (1958): 535-539.
This article makes no mention, however, of any connection between Ela
de Herdeburgh and William de Clinton, Earl of Huntingdon, or of Ela's
new Longespee ancestry.
Best always,
Douglas Richardson
royala...@msn.com (Douglas Richardson) wrote in message news:<5cf47a19.01092...@posting.google.com>...
Rosie Bevan
Thank you for posting your findings to SGM - the papal petition was an
exciting find in relation to identifying the mother of Ela de Herdeberge.
I would like to make a comment that Ela's mother was known to be named Ida
from the De Banco Roll 64m 44
1286 Isabel wife of Hugh de Herdeburgh sued Ida wife of Roger de Herdeburghe
for third of the manor of Prylleston and Nicholas de Herdebergh for a third
part of the lands and rents in Pallington and Wylie.
The date of this roll confirms that Roger de Herdeberghe was dead before
1286 (You wrote 1184 which must be a typo)
Ela de Herdeberge married firstly Walter de Hopton who died before 1305
having by him a son, Walter d.1369, who married Elizabeth da of John de
Cherleton. They had a son John to whom the reversion of a moiety of the
manor of Harborough Magna passed in 1373 as heir of Ela de Herdebergh. [VCH
Warwickshire sub Harborough][IPM 45 Edw III, no.110]
Thanks again.
Cheers
Rosie
Douglas Richardson
In my post this morning regarding Ela de Herdeburgh, I inadvertedly
overlooked the names of several immigrants who descend from Ela's
daughter, Ankaret le Boteler, who married John le Strange, Lord le
Strange, of Blackmere. The following additional immigrants descend
from Ela de Herdeburgh through Ankaret:
1. Kenelm Cheseldine.
2. Thomas Owsley.
3. Francis Dade
4. Henry, Jane & Nicholas Lowe.
If someone has the interest, perhaps they would be kind enough to post
the descents from Ela de Herdeburgh down to the various immigrants.
Besides the immigrants I've already named who descend from Ela de
Herdeburgh, I suspect there are several more immigrants who have this
line through the families of Longford, Montgomery, Clarell, and
Fitzherbert (of Norbury). Most of these families have never had any
identifiable royal ancestry before now. If anyone knows of any
immigrants with these families in their ancestry, please let me know.
I'd like to include all possible descents from Ela de Herdeburgh in
the next edition of Plantagenet Ancestry.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
royala...@msn.com (Douglas Richardson) wrote in message news:<5cf47a19.01092...@posting.google.com>...
Robert O'Connor
> Besides the immigrants I've already named who descend from Ela de
> Herdeburgh, I suspect there are several more immigrants who have this
> line through the families of Longford, Montgomery, Clarell, and
> Fitzherbert (of Norbury). Most of these families have never had any
> identifiable royal ancestry before now. If anyone knows of any
> immigrants with these families in their ancestry, please let me know.
> I'd like to include all possible descents from Ela de Herdeburgh in
> the next edition of Plantagenet Ancestry.
Dear Doug
I have the following line to Captain John Underhill as recorded in
RD500 by Gary Boyd Roberts:
*******
William, 1st Baron Boteler, of Wem & Oversley, Co. Warw., Summoned to
Parliament as a Baron, 10 March 1308. M 1st Beatrice. M 2nd Ela, d.
& co-heiress of Roger de Herdeburgh. Died 1334. He had issue by his
2nd wife : (Weis AR, p 76; Burke’s EP, p 63)
Denise le Boteler, M Hugh de Cokesay. She had issue: RD500, p 398
Cecily de Cokesay, M Thomas Cassy. She had issue:
Agnes Cassy, M Walter de Huddington, Esq., of Huddington, Co. Worc.
She had issue: RD500, p 398
Thomas de Huddington, of Huddington, Co. Worc., M Margery Thurgrym.
He had issue:
Joan de Huddington, M Roger Wynter, Esq., of Huddington, Co. Worc.
She had issue: RD500, p 398
Robert Wynter, of Huddington, Worc., M Margery. He had issue:
Ann Wynter, M Thomas Underhill, Esq., of Hunningham, Co. Warw. (d
1520). Died 1545. She had issue: Morrison, pp 41 & 43-45
Hugh Underhill, of Greenwich Palace, London., M 1st - . M 2nd c.
1570, Katherine (1548-1627), d. of George Manning, of Down, Kent.
Appointed “Keeper of the Wardrobe” to Queen Elizabeth I, 6
Feb. 1562/3, which office he retained until his death. Will dated 1
Jan. 1592/3. Died 1593. Will Proved at P.C.C., 23 July 1593. He had
issue (by both wives): Morrison, pp 62-4RD; 500, p 398
Thomas Underhill, Born 1545. M Magdalen, d. of John Amyas, Yeoman of
the King’s Armoury at Greenwich Palace. Keeper of Kenilworth
Castle. Died 1591. Admin. Granted at P.C.C., 7 June 1591. He had
issue: (Morrison, pp 66-8)
John Underhill, of Kenilworth, Co. Warw., Born c 1574. M Honor, d.
of James Pawley, Esq., of Lelant, Cornwall, & his wife Isabelle
Bonython. He departed England with Sir Robert Dudley in July 1605;
eventually arriving in Holland in June 1607 as a sergeant in the
company of Capt. Roger Orme. Died Oct. 1608 at Bergen-op-Zoom,
Holland. He had issue: (RD500, p 398; Morrisom, p 73)
Capt. John Underhill, of New England & Long Island, New York,
America., Bapt. 25 Dec. 1597 at Kenilworth. M 1st 12 Dec. 1628 at
The Hague, Holland, Heylken (Died 1656), d. of Willem de Hooch, of
Gorinchem, Holland. M 2nd 1659 Elizabeth (Born 1633 & Died 1675), d.
of Robert Feake, Esq., & his wife Elizabeth Fones Winthrop, great
niece of John Winthrop, Gov. of Massachusetts. He served as a cadet
in the guard of the Prince of Orange before his marriage. Went to New
England, America, June 1630. Represented Boston in Massachusetts
Assembly, 1634. & Stamford, 1643. Died 1672 at Killingworth, Oyster
Bay, America. D.N.B. He had issue: (BDFUSA, p 2948; RD500, p 398;
Morrison, p 77; N & Q, 3 Series, I, p 286)
*****
Although I should add that I believe that Gary Boyd Roberts has
subsequently stated that the above line does not hold water and will
not appear in the next addition of RD500.
Regards
Robert O'Connor
John Steele Gordon
news:5cf47a19.01092...@posting.google.com...
> In my post this morning regarding Ela de Herdeburgh, I inadvertedly
> overlooked the names of several immigrants who descend from Ela's
> daughter, Ankaret le Boteler, who married John le Strange, Lord le
> Strange, of Blackmere. The following additional immigrants descend
> from Ela de Herdeburgh through Ankaret:
>
> 1. Kenelm Cheseldine.
>
> 2. Thomas Owsley.
>
> 3. Francis Dade
>
> 4. Henry, Jane & Nicholas Lowe.
>
> If someone has the interest, perhaps they would be kind enough to post
> the descents from Ela de Herdeburgh down to the various immigrants.
Here's what I have for Kenelm Cheseldine:
Ankaret le Strange (1361-1413) = Richard Talbot (desc. Ed. I)
Mary Talbot = Sir Thomas Greene
Sir Thomas Greene = Philippe Ferrers (desc. Ed I)
Elizabeth Greene = William Raleigh
Sir Edward Raleigh = Margaret Verney
Edward Raleigh = Anne Chamberlain
Bridget Raleigh = Sir John Cope
Elizabeth Cope = John Dryden (g grandparents of the poet; ancestors of
Anne and Katherine Marbury)
Stephen Dryden = Ellen Neale
Grace Dryden = Kenelm Cheseldine
Kenelm Cheseldine (immigrant to Maryland)
But I have this Ankaret le Strange's parents as John le Strange, 4th Lord
Strange and Mary Fitzalan (desc. of Ed. I), see Plantagenet Ancestry II, p.
74. Is there a generation missing here?
JSG
Brent Miller
Brent Miller
Douglas Richardson <royala...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:5cf47a19.01092...@posting.google.com...
Is 1184 correct? Doesn't seem to fit in with the other dates.
The...@aol.com
Hello John,
I am assuming from your post that your are uncertain if the line given for Mary Talbot is in error, because of the indications at two generations of descent from Edward I of England.
I show the same descent down to Thomas Greene (my descent from his second wife). There are two descents from Edward I in fact, as you indicate:
1. Richard Talbot, Lord Talbot was descended from the marriage of Elizabeth of England and Humphrey de Bohun, Earl of Hereford through their daughter Eleanor (wife of James Butler or le Botiler, lst Earl of Ormond).
2. Ankaret Le Strange was descended from the marriage of Joan 'of Acre' and Gilbert ('the Red') de Clare, Earl of Gloucester (d. 1295) through Despencer, FitzAlan and Le Strange.
Hope this helps.
Good luck and good hunting.
John
malinda
from Joan of Acre and Gilbert de Clare, Earl of Gloucester.
~malinda
D. Spencer Hines
Displayed where in the Library of Congress?
Sefton: [William Holden] "One more word. If I ever run into any of you
bums on a street corner, just let's pretend we never met before.
Understand?"... Only in a democracy can a poor guy get his keister shot
off with a rich guy." ---- Stalag 17 [1953] Billy Wilder & Edwin Blum.
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly. All original
material contained herein is copyright and property of the author. It
may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an attribution
to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly given, in
writing.
------------------
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor.
"malinda" <mthi...@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:3BB221C1...@swbell.net...
D. Spencer Hines
have known his ancestry beyond his great-grandparents.
What's the date of this alleged chart and who produced it?
Caveat:
I'm not denying the accuracy of the descent from Joan of Acre, Gilbert
de Clare and Edward I.
Deus Vult.
Sefton: [William Holden] "One more word. If I ever run into any of you
bums on a street corner, just let's pretend we never met before.
Understand?"... Only in a democracy can a poor guy get his keister shot
off with a rich guy." ---- Stalag 17 [1953] Billy Wilder & Edwin Blum.
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly. All original
material contained herein is copyright and property of the author. It
may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an attribution
to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly given, in
writing.
------------------
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor.
"D. Spencer Hines" <D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu> wrote in message
news:...
| Indeed.
|
| Displayed where in the Library of Congress?