Tony-Bohun marriage
Dcrdcr4
It appears to be patently clear that Alice de Bohun, wife of Roger V de Tony,
was the mother of his son and heir, Ralph VII de Tony. Fortunately, in this
instance, this issue is not terribly complicated. There are a series of Tony
charters which have been published in the book, Beauchamp Cartulary, by Emma
Mason in the Pipe Roll series. I can provide the exact citation for this
source later if you wish. Among the charters in this collection is the
marriage settlement whereby Alice de Bohun was given property in marriage as
her maritagium. As a general rule, when a woman died without issue, such
property reverted to her family. In this case, Alice apparently had issue as
the property specified as her maritagium remained in the Tony family hands.
Ms. Mason also includes another charter by which Roger V de Tony exchanged his
wife's maritagium for property which his widowed mother, Pernel (de Lacy) (de
Tony) de St. Omer held in dower. I can't imagine Roger exchanging his wife's
maritagium for his mother's dower, unless in fact his wife, Alice de Bohun, had
died leaving surviving issue.
So, yes, the marriage occured and yes, it bore issue. That it bore issue is
also seen from the fact that following Roger V de Tony's death, the custody of
his young son, Ralph VII, was granted to Humphrey de Bohun, who would have been
the child's grandfather.
I believe these facts are compelling, persuasive and I think conclusive.
All for now. Douglas Richardson
D. Spencer Hines
version of Magna Charta Sureties 1215, the famous book originally
written by Frederick Lewis Weis [1895-1966], perhaps slotted under a
different title.
Would Douglas Richardson tell us what they have set out to do in the
revision and what we can expect from this widely anticipated book?
That might be most useful, and may even encourage many of us that it
will be a must have for our genealogical libraries.
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas
Sol Remedium Optimum Est
--
D. Spencer Hines --- "We few, we happy few, we band of brothers; For
he today that sheds his blood with me Shall be my brother; be he ne'er
so vile, This day shall gentle his condition. And gentlemen in
England, now a-bed, Shall think themselves accursed they were not
here; And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks That fought
with us upon Saint Crispin's day." William Shakespeare [1564-1616]
Henry V, Act IV, Scene 3, Lines 60-67.
Cristopher Nash
Douglas, this is extremely helpful -- thanks. The problem was actually
twofold, and you've solidly answered the first, re the Tony/Bohun marriage.
Texts like CP XIV's having missed this one is a pity, but it's in the
editors' longstanding tradition to neglect the Beauchamp Cartulary (in
spite of e.g. the massive original 'Warwick' article).
The reason I've always phrased my anxiety in the form that I have (<tenuous
descent of Ralph de Tony VII from Alice de Bohun>) is that, in addition,
Isabel is claimed (e.g. in CP XII, pt 1, 772) to be Ralph VII's mother on
the grounds that she's thought to have married Roger V before 1255 when
Ralph VII was born (p.773). I'm sorry not to have spelled this out in my
latest message. Obviously record-dates would help; perhaps the
maritagium-property exchange document yields a useful one, if it declares
Alice deceased. We'll see. But -- for your (and Mason's) bringing the
Cartulary into the open, for one thing -- many thanks!
Cheers.
Cris
Leslie Mahler
There is a note in Weiss AR7 regarding the Tony - Bohun marriage, and it
directs us back to the book Magna Carta Sureties, line 101A, which gives
a discussion of this marriage. Sometimes we tend to forget that even the
Complete Peerage isnt always perfect, and that other publications need
to
be referenced as well.
Leslie