Bassett/Stafford help please

[Janelle Swearingen]

I have been over the CP 2nd ed. on the Bassetts of Drayton and cannot understand it.

Can someone please list for me the order of descent down to Margaret Bassett who married Edmund Stafford?

There are so many Ralphs and the wording is for me too confusing.

I am flummoxed!
Thanks

Janelle Swearingen

[D. Spencer Hines]

There is nothing wrong with your question.

Good Morning.

O.K. CP II, p. 2.

Your Margaret Basset is the one born circa 1280 and died 13 Mar 1336/7 in
Drayton Basset, Staffordshire, England?

If so, she was allegedly the daughter of Ralph Basset, 1st Lord Basset, who
died 31 Dec 1299 and was buried at Drayton. See CP II, p.2.

Next Question?

Aloha,

D. Spencer Hines

"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and
conscientious stupidity."

Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
Strength to Love - Jan 1963

"Janelle Swearingen" wrote in message
news:mailman.503.14868358...@rootsweb.com...

[D. Spencer Hines]

You might also find this useful:

https://www.geni.com/people/Margaret-Basset/6000000002043252409

But be alert and careful -- this online source is often careless, confused
and even bollixed.

DSH

"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and
conscientious stupidity."

Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
Strength to Love - Jan 1963

"D. Spencer Hines" wrote in message news:o7qe07$tsn$1...@dont-email.me...

[taf]

On Saturday, February 11, 2017 at 9:57:28 AM UTC-8, Janelle Swearingen wrote:
> I have been over the CP 2nd ed. on the Bassetts of Drayton and cannot
> understand it.
>
> Can someone please list for me the order of descent down to Margaret
> Bassett who married Edmund Stafford?

Let's break it down. irst, the descent of the last Lord Basset of Drayton is given as follows:

Richard, Justiciar t. HI
Ralph d. 1160
Ralph d. 1211
Ralph d. 1254-61
Ralph d. 4 Aug 1265 m. Margaret de Somery
Ralph 1st Lord d. 1299 m Hawise
Ralph 2nd Lord d. 25 Feb 1342/3 m. Joan de Gray
Ralph d. 1343, m. Alice Audley
Ralph 3rd Lord d.s.p. 10 May 1390

on p. 4-5, note f, the author then addresses the disputed heirship, stating that two ipms give conflicting information:

One says that the heir of the deceased 3rd Lord was Thomas Lord Stafford, son of Hugh, son of Ralph son of Margaret Basset, sister of the grandfather of the deceased - in other words, sister of Ralph 2nd Lord. That makes Margaret the daughter of Ralph, the 1st Lord and Hawise.

The other gives two heirs, Thomas, via Margaret, and Alice, wife of Thomas de Chaworth, a descendant of Maud, wife of William Herriz and sister of the said Margaret.

To confirm this, I checked the source, the inquisition post mortem of Ralph, Lord Drayton. That for Norfolk gives his heir as "Thomas earl of Stafford, aged 21 years and more, son of Hugh son of Ralph likewise earl son of Margaret sister of Ralph father of Ralph his father. [so sister of 2nd Lord, father of the intermediate Ralph, his - the 3rd Lord's father, as given in CP]

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.31158009518308;view=1up;seq=430

That of Warwick gives "Thomas earl of Stafford and Alice wife of William Chaworth, knight, each aged 21 years and more, . . . the said Thomas as son of Hugh son of Ralph son of Margaret one of the sisters of Ralph Basset, father of Ralph Basset his father, and the said Maud the other sister of the said Ralph Basset, father of Ralph Basset his father." [again, sister of Ralph, father of Ralph, his (the 3rd Lord's) father]

The ipm of the 3rd Earl's widow Joan also gives the heir for her widow's portion as Edmund earl of Stafford, "being son of Hugh earl of Stafford, son of Ralph, son of Margaret, sister of Ralph, father of Ralph, father of Ralph", so again, Margaret is sister of the grandfather of the 3rd Lord who died childless.

Again, that of Edmund, Earl of Stafford, gives the same pedigree.

For these see: http://www.history.ac.uk/cipm-18-part-viii

So, that would make Margaret and Maud the sisters of the 2nd Lord and daughters of Ralph, the 1st Lord.

taf

[D. Spencer Hines]

Then there is this online source -- also to be used guardedly and with
extreme vetting:

http://www.thepeerage.com/p11699.htm#i116983

All of this should be confirmed with a reliable print source.

DSH

"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and
conscientious stupidity."

Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
Strength to Love - Jan 1963

"D. Spencer Hines" wrote in message news:...

I have been over the CP 2nd ed. on the Bassetts of Drayton and cannot
understand it.

Can someone please list for me the order of descent down to Margaret
Bassett who married Edmund Stafford?

[Janelle Swearingen]

Thank You! I really appreciate your help. I think what confused me was
the statement that Margaret who married Stafford was the sister of the
grandfather of the Ralph who married Alice Audley. So if I understand this
correctly then Margaret was a sister of the Ralph who married Hawise? and
the daughter of the Ralph who married Margaret de Somery? Is this right?

I am growing old and trying to wind up my family history in a clear and
concise way for future generations. In my 80s now my concentration and
organizational skills are not a sharp as they once were.

This does help me a lot. Just when I think I have found all I'm going to
find, another opening occurs. So now I have to investigate Somery, but not
Gray or Audley?

Thanks again
Janelle

[D. Spencer Hines]

For Janelle Swearingen:

Did you not receive any of these posts?

DSH
-------------------------------------------------------------

"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and
conscientious stupidity."

Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
Strength to Love - Jan 1963

"D. Spencer Hines" wrote in message news:o7qjd7$i96$1...@dont-email.me...

[taf]

On Sunday, February 12, 2017 at 2:56:31 PM UTC-8, Janelle Swearingen wrote:
> Thank You! I really appreciate your help. I think what confused me was
> the statement that Margaret who married Stafford was the sister of the
> grandfather of the Ralph who married Alice Audley. So if I understand this
> correctly then Margaret was a sister of the Ralph who married Hawise? and
> the daughter of the Ralph who married Margaret de Somery? Is this right?

No, you are still confusing things - specifically confusing for whom the inquisitions were performed. They were performed at the death of Ralph the 3rd Lord. Margaret was the sister of the grandfather of the deceased 3rd Lord. The 3rd Lord's parents were Ralph (who, predeceasing his father, never became Lord) and Alice Audley, his grandfather was Ralph, the 2nd Lord, who married Joan de Gray and was brother of Margaret, and the 3rd Lord's great-grandparents were Ralph, the 1st Lord, and Hawise, who would also then be parents pf margaret and Maud.

You are right that Somery would be ancestral, and Gray and Audley would not, but likewise, the parentage of Hawise, were it to be determined, would also be ancestral.

taf

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Janelle ~

The inquisition post mortem cited by taf is wrong. Maud Basset, wife of William de Heriz, was actually the daughter of Ralph Basset, who died in 1254-61. This means she should be placed two generations further back in the Basset family tree than stated in the inquisition. This minor "glitch" is why all inquisitions should be cross compared against other contemporary records.

The inquisition is correct, however, in placing Margaret Basset, wife of Edmund de Stafford, 1st Lord Stafford, as the daughter of Ralph Basset, 1st Lord Basset, who died in 1299.

For your interest, I've copied my file account of Maud Basset and her husband, William de Heriz, below. This couple has modern descendants through the Chaworth family.

I might note that Maud Basset, wife of William de Heriz, should not be confused with her niece of the same name, Maud Basset, wife of Richard de Scrupes (or Crupes), Knt., of Whittington, Gloucestershire. Sir Richard de Scrupes occurs in records from 1257 to 1278. For further details, see Clay "The Family of Scrupes or Crupes of Whittington, Gloucestershire" in Trans. Bristol & Gloucestershire Arch. Soc. 65 (1944): 129–140.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + +

MAUD BASSET, married WILLIAM DE HERIZ, of Wiverton, Nottinghamshire. Maud had 6 marks of land in Wyndesclive [i.e., Kingstone Winslow (in Ashbury), Berkshire] in free marriage by grant of her father, Ralph Basset. They had one daughter, Joan (wife of Jordan le Bret). William was a juror in 1230 and a justice itinerant for Nottinghamshire in 1236. His lands in Wiverton, Nottinghamshire were mentioned in an agreement dated 1251. Sometime before 1262 he and Roger IV Deincourt witnessed a grant by Robert de Gretwik. Trevor Foulds, Thurgarton Cartulary (1994): clii-clviii. For the identification of Wyndesclive, see N.E. Stacy, Surveys of the Estates of Glasonbury Abbey, c. 1135-1201 (Recs. of Social & Econ. Hist. 33) (2001): 208, footnote 3.

[Janelle Swearingen]

Dear Douglas,

I never would have made it as far as I have in tracing my English ancestry
had it not been for your Plantagenet Ancestry and Magna Carta Ancestry
books. My gateway ancestor was Obadiah Bruen. I was very fortunate to find
so many of my ancestors lived in Cheshire and Lancashire where the books of
Ormerod and Earwaker were also treasure troves. I have an archivist friend
in Oxford who has graciously transcribed and/or translated the occasional
document for me. Old English handwriting might as well be in Martian for
all I can tell and Latin is a mystery. I owe lots of thanks to lots of
people.

Janelle

-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas Richardson
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2017 6:16 PM
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Bassett/Stafford help please