Normandy nobles/Tosny
Sheila Cassidy
Hi folks
I have a lot of questions about some norman nobles, which
I hope someone more knowledgble than me can explain. I don't
have email, so could you reply to the group, as this is a
colleague's work account. Thanks.
1. Richard of Evreux (d.1067) m. Godehildis widow of Roger I
of Tosny. Is this Roger the same as Roger de Toeni who
married the daughter of the Countess of Barcelona? This
daughter is called Adelaide by some, or Stephania. Which
is correct? Was she the mother of his daughter Adeliza,
who married William Fitz Osbern (d.1071)? Is Roger of
Toeni's origin known? (I have read that he was descended
from Malahule brother of Earl Rognvald or his wife Hilda)
When did he die?
2. William Longsword (d.941) m. Eperleng (was she really his
wife or just concubine?) and had a son Rodulf Count of Ivry,
who had 2 sons Hugh Bishop of Bayeux, and John Arcbishop of
Roeun, and Emma wife of Osbern Steward (d.1040). Is this
descent correct?
3. Ricahrd III 1026-7 had a son Nicholas abbot of St.Ouen
who attended funeral of William the Conq 1087. Is this
true, and when did he die?
4. Roger I Count of Sicily. I have him marrying Erenburga
daughter of William son of Robert of Mortain (d.1091):
3 daughters, Constance m. Conrad son of Henry IV
Busilla m. Coloman of Hungary
Matilda m. Rainulf of Alife
Is this correct and are there any known descents from
these marriages? Then marrying Judith daughter of William
(d.1118) son of Richard of Evreux: were there any children
of this marriage?
Thanks very much
Jeff Williams
Todd A. Farmerie
Sheila Cassidy wrote:
>
> 1. Richard of Evreux (d.1067) m. Godehildis widow of Roger I
> of Tosny. Is this Roger the same as Roger de Toeni who
> married the daughter of the Countess of Barcelona?
It is generally held to have been the same Roger, although there is more
debate as to whether it was the same wife (I tend to say no).
> This
> daughter is called Adelaide by some, or Stephania.
Charles Evans as suggested that there were two Tosny/Barcelona
marriages. One involved the Roger above, while the other involved the
progenitor of Tosny of Belvoir (explaining the introduction of the name
Berenger into that family).
> Which
> is correct?
In this case, both?
> Was she the mother of his daughter Adeliza,
> who married William Fitz Osbern (d.1071)? Is Roger of
> Toeni's origin known? (I have read that he was descended
> from Malahule brother of Earl Rognvald or his wife Hilda)
This is the origin given him in traditional Norman sources, but there is
no confirming evidence.
> 2. William Longsword (d.941) m. Eperleng (was she really his
> wife or just concubine?)
William had a mistress, who later married Asperlingus (spelled numerous
ways). THeir children would thus be half-brothers of Count Richard I.
> and had a son Rodulf Count of Ivry,
> who had 2 sons Hugh Bishop of Bayeux, and John Arcbishop of
> Roeun, and Emma wife of Osbern Steward (d.1040). Is this
> descent correct?
Yes, other than the father of the first Count of Ivry.
taf
Stewart Baldwin
ct...@admin.cressy.bi (Sheila Cassidy) wrote:
[snip]
> ... Is Roger of
>Toeni's origin known? (I have read that he was descended
>from Malahule brother of Earl Rognvald or his wife Hilda)
Actually, the original statement is somewhat different from this.
Guillaume de Jumieges states that "Rogerius Toenites de stirpe mala
Hulcii, qui Rollonis Ducis patruus fuerant ...", and it is debated
whether the correct reading is "mala Hulcii" or "Malahulcii", so that
the passage is claiming that Roger's ancestry can be traced back to an
uncle of Rollo whose name was either Malahulc or Hulc, depending on
how the passage is read (the difference between capital and lowercase
letters being vague or nonexistent in many medieval manuscripts).
Trying to link [Mala]hulc as a brother of Rognvald (or his wife) is a
more serious problem. For one thing, such a link assumes that Rollo
was the son of Rognvald, which is far from certain. (I have explained
in great detail in past postings why I believe the Rollo-Rognvald
connection to be bogus.) Second, since the late Icelandic account
which gives Rognvald as the father of Rollo is in direct contradiction
with what the early Norman writers state about the origin of Rollo, it
is difficult to accept the Icelandic account of Rollo's origin without
also rejecting the Norman account. The Norman and Icelandic stories
of Rollo's origin are essentially incompatible, and sources which make
[Mala]hulc a brother of Rognvald (or his wife) are doing a sort of
"cut-and-paste" on the two different stories, ignoring all of the
contradictions.
In my opinion, the bottom line is that you can't have it both ways.
If you wish to accept [Mala]hulc as a real person (and Roger's
ancestor), then you should be prepared to reject the alleged
Rollo-Rognvald connection claimed by the Icelandic authors.
Stewart Baldwin
Pat McDonough
Do you have any information on the name Muschamp. Reputed to have fought
along side Wm the Conqueror in 1066.
G . EDWARD ALLEN
Pat McDonough wrote:
>
> Do you have any information on the name Muschamp. Reputed to have fought
> along side Wm the Conqueror in 1066.
There are two Muschamp(s). Do you have more specifics?
Kay Allen all...@pacbell.net