Wives of Charles the Simple & Louis the Stammerer

Megan Davis

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Sep 4, 1996, 3:00:00 AM9/4/96

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Does anyone know the origin, descent, parents of the wives of Louis the Stammerer
(d.879) and his son Charles the Simple (d.929). I know that Louis
was married to an Adelaide, and Charles the Simple married Frederuna,
who died in 917, but thats all. Is anything else known about them?
Apologies for the text: I'm not used to using this editor.
thanks
Megan

Christian Feuillet

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Sep 5, 1996, 3:00:00 AM9/5/96

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Megan - I'll check further this evening, but from the top
of my head (and few scribbles):

Louis II le Begue (846-879) was son of Charles II le Chauve
(823-877) & Ermentrude d'Orleans ( -869).

Louis II married first Adelaide de Paris ( -after 901),
daughter of Adalard comte de Paris, with whom he had a
daughter, Irmtrude, and a son, Charles III le Simple (879-929).

Louis II married secondly Ansgarde, daughter of Hardouin comte
de ?, with whom he had a daughter, Hildegarde, and 2 sons,
Louis III (863-882) & Carloman (866-884), both king of France.

Charles III married Edwige de Wessex with whom he had Louis IV
d'Outremer (921-954) and married Frerone de Saxe.

More this evening.

Chris K. Moore

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Sep 5, 1996, 3:00:00 AM9/5/96

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Megan Davis wrote:
>
> Does anyone know the origin, descent, parents of the wives of Louis the
> Stammerer
> (d.879) and his son Charles the Simple (d.929). I know that Louis
> was married to an Adelaide, and Charles the Simple married Frederuna,
> who died in 917, but thats all. Is anything else known about them?
> Apologies for the text: I'm not used to using this editor.
> thanks
> Megan

In Roderick Stuart's "Royalty for Commoners", Louis' wife is given as Adelaide
of Paris
(855/860-900), daughter of Begue, Count of Paris (and great-grandson of
Charlemagne).
The wife of Charles III is stated as Edgiva, Princess of England, daughter of
Edward I
"the Elder", King of England (son of Alfred the Great) and his wife Eadgifu
(Edgiva),
daughter of Sigehelm, Earldorman of Kent. Earlier generations are given in
several
lines. Given as sources for both generations are "Europaische Stammtafeln"
II:1;
Isenburg's "Stammtafeln zur Deutschen . . "; and Moriarty's "Plantagenet
Ancestry".

Chris Moore
ckmm...@erols.com

ic

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Sep 9, 1996, 3:00:00 AM9/9/96

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On Thu, 5 Sep 1996, Chris K. Moore wrote:

> Megan Davis wrote:
> >
> > Does anyone know the origin, descent, parents of the wives of Louis the
> > Stammerer
> > (d.879) and his son Charles the Simple (d.929). I know that Louis
> > was married to an Adelaide, and Charles the Simple married Frederuna,
> > who died in 917, but thats all. Is anything else known about them?
> > Apologies for the text: I'm not used to using this editor.
> > thanks
> > Megan
>
> In Roderick Stuart's "Royalty for Commoners", Louis' wife is given as Adelaide
> of Paris > (855/860-900), daughter of Begue, Count of Paris (and
> great-grandson of > Charlemagne).

Louis married twice. His first wife was Ansgarde daughter of Ct Hardoin
and Guerimburga, a Neustrian noble family. He married her in March 862
without his father's permission, as did his brother Charles of
Aquitaine who married the widow of Ct Humbert in the same year (Nelson,
_Charles the Bald_, p204). By Ansgarde he had two sons (Louis III &
Carloman II) and 3 daughters: Hildegarde, Gisela (who died c.884,
married Robert Ct of Troyes, d.886), and Ermentrude, whose partner is
unknown, but who had a daughter, Cunegund, who married Widric (Wigeric)
Ct of Bidgau and Ct Palatine under Charles the Simple). Ansgarde
had two brothers, Odo & Hardoin, who had both become counts by 870.
Although Louis's father (Chas the Bald) eventually sanctioned the union,
some years later he made Louis divorce Ansgarde and had him remarried to
Adelaide. This 2nd marriage took place in February, probably 875. Ansgarde
died 2 November between 880 and 882, and was buried in Notre Dame de Reims.

Adelaide was not a daughter of Bego of Paris. He died in 816 (the confusion
in Stuart is probably due to a charter of Chas the Bald, dated 861, which
is false, as demonstrated by G.Tessier, _Recueil des chartes de Charles
le Chauve_ etc). However she was descended from him through her paternal
grandmother Suzanna who was Bego's daughter (K.Werner, "Die Nachkommen die
Karl der Grosse", _Karl der Grosse_ (ed W.Braunfels) vol IV, 432-9, which
traces her family). She was as stated elsewhere, daughter of Adalard: he
was not Count of Paris [for Conrad (the Welf one) is mentioned
specifically as Count of Paris in 876 by the _Annals of St.Bertin_
written contemporaneously at Reims].

Instead, Werner argued, Adalard was a Burgundian noble who became Ct of
the Palace in the last years of Charles the Bald (877). He had a brother
Wulfgrim (Vulgrin, Bougrin) who J.Nelson (_Charles the Bald_ p232-3),
identified as Vulgrin I Count of Angouleme. Adelaide also had a brother
called Wulfhard (or uncle I forget which) who was chancellor under
Louis III and Carloman II. By Adelaide Louis had a son, Charles etc, who
was born posthumously 17 September 879. Adelaide remained with her son,
and had some influence at court during the first years of his reign, as she
is mentioned in a number of his charters. She died 18 October, after 901.
Some French historians (Auzias, _L'Aquitaine Carolinienne_) hypothesised
that after Louis's death she married Ramnulf II of Poitou, but this is
impossible to prove.

> The wife of Charles III is stated as Edgiva, Princess of England,

Eadgifu was his 2nd wife, whom he had married by 919. French sources
transform her name into Edgiva, Ogive etc. She later married (951) one
of the Vermandois brothers, Heribert III the Old, Ct Palatine under
Lothar, d.980/4.

Charles's first wife was as the original poster states, called Frederuna
(or Frerone etc if you're French), whom he married in April 907. She died
10 February 916 or 917. She had 6 daughters. Her origin is claimed as
either Lotharingian or Saxon. Older French historians (A.Eckel, le reign
de Charles le Simple) saw her as a Lotharingian, which was reaffirmed
more recently by R.Mckitterick in her book (The Frankish Kingdoms under
the Carolingians 751-987, p308), as her kinsman Ct Hagano was from
Lotharigia/Lorraine. She also had a brother, Bovo II Bishop of
Chalons-sur-Marne 916-47. A nephew Ernust was chancellor in 905 and
became archchancellor in 910. He was still alive in 917. In 1963 Karl
Eckhardt established that Frederona was the sister of Matilda (later the
2nd wife of Henry the Fowler) and the daughter of a Count Theoderic
(Dietrich). This was accepted and followed by Werner (KdG, IV, p457
no.38) and Michel Bur (la formation de Champagne etc, p102). Presumably
this is why some other secondary sources call her Frerone de Saxe
(Saxony), as Matilda claimed descent from Widukind, the Saxon opponent of
Charlemagne. However it is not clear whether Theoderic himself was a
saxon count; as I have not read the article by Eckhardt, I can't say what
his argument is based on.