Need a Translation On Latin on Link from the Rcord Office on Bold and Savage 1464

[marlow...@frontier.com]

Is there anyone on the list that can translate the Latin on this link. Permission has been given by the Cheshire Record Office to use it on Flickr for us to use.

Subject: Dulcia Savage, wife of Henry Bold

Henry Bold and his wife Dulcia Savage, ancestors of the Eltonhead immigrants to Virginia and Maryland, are mentioned in document MS 579 1464, part of the Beamont collection of manuscripts held by the Warrington Library, Museum and Archives Service. It is described as follows:

>MS 579 1464
>1 Henry Bold , kt, and son Richard.
>2? Dulcie, daughter of John de [? Savage] esq and wife of Henry
Bold, son of Richard.
>Grant from 1 to 2, for life of 2, of land in Bold (specified and
tenants named). Remainders given.
>Witnesses: Peter de Legh, kt, Richard Kyghley and William Irlond
esqs.
>20 Oct 1464
>Latin; 2 seal tags only
>
>An image of this document is at http://www.flickr.com/photos/cheshirero/9851628056/.
> 
>Marianne Dillow

[marlow...@frontier.com]

I am having problems with links. Here it is again.. Marianne

http://www.flickr.com/photos/cheshirero/9851628056/

________________________________
From: "marlow...@frontier.com" <marlow...@frontier.com>
To: "GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com" <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2013 12:21 PM
Subject: Need a Translation On Latin on Link from the Rcord Office on Bold and Savage 1464

[Matt Tompkins]

It is a grant by Henry Bold, knt, and his son Richard Bold of various properties, described at length but not wholly legible, to Dulcie [?daughter of John Savage] esq and wife of Henry Bold, son of the said Richard, for her life, with remainder to Henry son of Richard and the heirs of his body, and in default of heirs to Henry Bold, knt.
Witnesses: Peter de Legh, knt, Richard Kyghley and William Irlond esqs.
Dated at Bold, 20 Oct 4 Edw IV [1464]

Matt Tompkins

[marlow...@frontier.com]

________________________________
From: Matt Tompkins <ml...@le.ac.uk>
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2013 3:08 PM
Subject: Re: Need a Translation On Latin on Link from the Rcord Office on Bold and Savage 1464

Matt Tompkins

Thanks,  I believe my line from Dulcie Bold and John Savage, ESQ, , died  1495, are my grandparents. The Savage line was what I was hoping for.
I know it was posted that in 1464, that only John Savage that married Katherine Stanley would be the correct grandfather to me as  John Savage that married the Breretion was dead before that.

Marianne Dillow

[Don Stone]

Matt,

Thanks for this summary. Could you tell us which line and which words
within the line are the Latin text represented by "Dulcie [?daughter of
John Savage] esq"?

Somewhat contradictory information comes from Roger Dodsworth's
manuscript notes, cited in VCH Lancaster, v. 3 (1907), pp. 402-9,
Townships: Bold, http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=41356:
Note 48: ... He [Sir Henry Bold] was a party to his grandson's marriage
covenants in Oct. 1464 (Dods. MSS. cxlii, [ fol. 201?,] n. 98).
Note 53: ... He [Henry Bold, grandson of the preceding Sir Henry Bold,]
had been married in 1464 to Dulcia or Dowse, daughter of Sir John Savage
(Dods. MSS. loc. cit. n. 98), but in 1497 the name of his widow was
Ellen; ibid. n. 120, 121.

(See Todd Whitesides' comments of 6 Dec 2005:
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2005-12/1133904425.)

So we have a document from 1464 stating that Dulcie was [?daughter of
John Savage] _esq_, and Dodsworth's notes, from probably at least a
century and half later, stating that Dulcia was daughter of _Sir_ John
Savage. If Dulcie's father's name is hard to read in the 1464 document,
then Dodsworth's note is helpful, specifying "John Savage." Was
Dodsworth necessarily looking at a document that said "_Sir_ John
Savage" or was he just relying on his knowledge that John Savage was
later knighted when he wrote his note? Should someone look at
Dodsworth's note 98 (at the Bodleian Library at Oxford)?

-- Don Stone

[marlow...@frontier.com]

________________________________
From: Don Stone <d...@donstonetech.com>
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 11:33 PM

Subject: Re: Need a Translation On Latin on Link from the Rcord Office on Bold and Savage 1464

On 9/21/2013 2:08 PM, Matt Tompkins wrote:

Matt,

  -- Don Stone

Good question Don.

 The original record from Warrington is this:

[no title]  MS 579  1464

Contents:
1 Henry Bold, kt, and son Richard

2? Dulcie, daughter of John de [? Savage] esq and wife of Henry Bold, son of Richard

Grant from 1 to 2, for life of 2, of land in Bold (specified and tenants named). Remainders given.
Witnesses: Peter de Legh, kt, Richard Kyghley and William Irlond esqs

20 Oct 1464
Latin; 2 seal tags only

After my posting on this record , Douglas Richardson has posted that the only John Savage, Esq, in 1464, was John Savage, Esq that married Katherine Stanley that he knows of.

Also, a archive posting on Todd Whitesides regarding John Savage.

Despite what is printed in VCH Lancaster about Dulcia [or Dulcie] Savage
being a daughter of SIR John Savage at the time of her 1464 marriage covenant,
it appears from a record at the Cheshire and Chester Archives in the Beamont
MSS. that her father was actually John Savage ESQ. at the time her husband
Henry Bolde (s/o Richard Bolde) settled property on her on 20 Oct. 1464 [Beamont
MSS. ~ MS 579]. That rules out what sense I was attempting to make from her
father being a knight in 1464. In 1464 John Savage (d. 1495) was still only
called an esquire [from his father's IPM], most likely being the John Savage
that was made a knight in 1471 by Edward IV and from 1472 on appearing in
Cheshire records as a knight. John Savage "junior" (d. 1492) was made a Knight
of the Bath in 1465. Chronologically it appears more likely that Dulcia who
was married and had property settled on her in 1464 was a daughter of John
Savage (ca. 1421-1495). The will of her son Richard Bolde, Knt., indicates
that Dulcia is buried in what was then called the Church of St. Wilfrid,
Farnworth (in Widnes).

Posting by Todd Whitesides

Marianne Dillow

[Matt Tompkins]

On Tuesday, 24 September 2013 05:33:37 UTC+1, Don Stone wrote:
> Thanks for this summary. Could you tell us which line and which words
> within the line are the Latin text represented by "Dulcie [?daughter of
> John Savage] esq"?
>

The last three words of the first line are (or rather, may be) " Dulcie fil' Joh'is " and "Savage" (if that is what it says) is the first word of line 2.

The ink has lifted off the parchment in the second half of the first line, but its shadow remains and it is still possible to make quite a bit of it out. The first part of the shadowy section is standard form wording, so one can be confident that it says "... dedimus concessimus et hac presenti carta nostra confirmavimus ..." The rest is not standard form and so is more difficult. From its position in the text we expect it to be the name or description of the grantee. The first word clearly begins with a capital D, and later in the deed the grantee's name appears legibly - Dulcia. Armed with this knowledge it is possible to discern "Dulcie" (the dative of Dulcia).

The last two words on the line I cannot make out from the image posted on Flickr alone. However the record office's calendar states confidently that they say 'daughter of John', and armed with that information I can almost persuade myself that I can make out "fil' Joh'is". Since the calendarer was working from the original, which is always more legible than a photograph (especially with the assistance of a UV lamp), I'm happy to accept what he or she said - however I put the words in [?...] to indicate that there is some uncertainty.

The first word on line 2 is more difficult - some of the ink has been lost but has not left a shadow. Even the calendarer used [?...] to indicate uncertainty here. The last letter is clearly '-e', the penultimate almost certainly '-ge', and the second letter probably 'a', giving us "-a--ge", or possibly "-a---ge". The initial letter does not look much like a capital S, but I don't think there is another capital S elsewhere in the deed to compare it with (the S in 'Sciant presentes' isn't much help as the first letter in a deed is generally written in a specially ornate style), so it's difficult to be sure. I have followed the calendarer's reading, for the reasons given above, and included it in the [?...] placed around the preceding words.

Matt

[joe...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, September 24, 2013 4:37:48 AM UTC-4, Matt Tompkins wrote:
> On Tuesday, 24 September 2013 05:33:37 UTC+1, Don Stone wrote:
>
> > Thanks for this summary. Could you tell us which line and which words

> The first word on line 2 is more difficult - some of the ink has been lost but has not left a shadow. Even the calendarer used [?...] to indicate uncertainty here. The last letter is clearly '-e', the penultimate almost certainly '-ge', and the second letter probably 'a', giving us "-a--ge", or possibly "-a---ge". The initial letter does not look much like a capital S, but I don't think there is another capital S elsewhere in the deed to compare it with (the S in 'Sciant presentes' isn't much help as the first letter in a deed is generally written in a specially ornate style), so it's difficult to be sure. I have followed the calendarer's reading, for the reasons given above, and included it in the [?...] placed around the preceding words.

Thanks; playing with it in a photo tool it's actually pretty clearly "Savage" as the first word of the second line, as expected. I can't get any more clarity on the last words of the first line but trust your interpretation.

--JC

[marlow...@frontier.com]

________________________________
From: Matt Tompkins <ml...@le.ac.uk>
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com

Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2013 3:37 AM

Subject: Re: Need a Translation On Latin on Link from the Rcord Office on Bold and Savage 1464

Matt

Thanks Matt,

I appreciate all you have done on the translation of this record.

Marianne Dillow