Fw: Alexander Sutherland of Dunbeath

[Leo van de Pas]

This is what I received

You may have already heard this from someone else. With respect to Alexander Sutherland of Dunbeath, there was an extensive article back in 1982 in "The Genealogist", vol. 3, by Andrew MacEwen, the "resident expert in all things Scottish" [at least per the Sage of Salt Lake City!] which established pretty clearly that Alexander Sutherland of Dunbeath was the 2nd son of Robert, 6th Earl of Sutherland. CP 12.1 as cited by Doug McDonald is apparently wrong in saying that Alexander S. of Dunbeath was different from Alexander, called Master of Sutherland, who died vp. The confusion apparently arose rose from Alexander being erroneously called Master of Sutherland in early pedigrees and thus assumed to be the eldest son of Robert.

So I think your database is right as it is....

[Doug McDonald]

I so. Absent actually reading MacEwen's article, I would tend to trust it!
So that answers that; of course, this doesn't get me any more ancestors.

Doug McDonald

[John P. Ravilious]

Dear Doug (and Leo, et al.),

A number of items as they relate to Alexander Sutherland of
Dunbeath:

1. Andrew MacEwen found additional evidence re: the
identification,
subsequent to the earlier article. In 'Further Observations
on Alexander Sutherland of Dunbeath', TG Vol. 5, No. 2
(Fall 1984), p. 225 he cites the dispensation dated 20 July
1448 for the marriage of

' Alexander de Sutherland, brother german of the Earl of
Sutherland, and Margaret Macloide.'

2. Unfortunately (in terms of MacDonald descents), MacEwen also
determined that Marion/Marjory, the daughter who married
William Sinclair, 3rd Earl/Jarl of Orkney (1st of Caithness),
(d. bef 29 Mar 1482) was the illegitimate daughter of
Alexander Sutherland by Catherine Chalmers. See re: same,
Thompson and Hansen's Medueval Ancestry for Charles II.

3. Whereas the foregoing was of concern to some, it has also
been proved a moot point for descendants of William Sinclair
by his daughter Elizabeth, wife of Sir John Houstoun of that
Ilk [including myself]. Andrew MacEwen has also found that
Elizabeth Sinclair was the daughter of Elizabeth Douglas,
1st wife of William Sinclair, and was 1stly married to Sir
Andrew Leslie [see SP VII:273-275, sub Leslie, Earls of
Rothes]. This removes the Sutherland link for the Houstoun
descendants in its entirety, although replaced with some
interesting Douglas and Murray ancestry.

Cheers,

John

On Nov 17, 5:04 pm, Doug McDonald <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu>
wrote:

[Doug McDonald]

John P. Ravilious wrote:
> Dear Doug (and Leo, et al.),
>
> A number of items as they relate to Alexander Sutherland of
> Dunbeath:
>
> 1. Andrew MacEwen found additional evidence re: the
> identification,
> subsequent to the earlier article. In 'Further Observations
> on Alexander Sutherland of Dunbeath', TG Vol. 5, No. 2
> (Fall 1984), p. 225 he cites the dispensation dated 20 July
> 1448 for the marriage of
>
> ' Alexander de Sutherland, brother german of the Earl of
> Sutherland, and Margaret Macloide.'
>
> 2. Unfortunately (in terms of MacDonald descents), MacEwen also
> determined that Marion/Marjory, the daughter who married
> William Sinclair, 3rd Earl/Jarl of Orkney (1st of Caithness),
> (d. bef 29 Mar 1482) was the illegitimate daughter of
> Alexander Sutherland by Catherine Chalmers.

Who is this Catherine Chalmers?

This removes one of the two main MacDonald lines to just about everybody.

Doug McDonald

[John P. Ravilious]

Dear Doug, Leo, et al.,

Oddly enough, the ancestry of Catherine Chalmers is as yet
unresolved.....

I was of the original opinion that she was of Chalmers of
Gadgirth, but 'tis a Lowland family, and while possible I think
unlikely.

There is another family, Chalmers of Kintore, found with lands at
Balnacraig and elsewhere in northern Scotland in the 14th century.
Held to have descended from the Camerons (their arms differ from those
of Gadgirth), this family is a more likely source.

Again, apologies for the removal of some interesting ancestry (my
own disappointment having occurred a while back).

~ Leo, thanks for nailing down the descendants of Alexander
Sutherland via Cawdor. I'd like to be in that number.......;)

Cheers,

John

[Alex Maxwell Findlater]

The Chalmers were also of Findon, which I think is south of Aberdeen;
the Gazeteer says it's a fishing village in Banchory-Deveninck parish,
Kincardine, the same place as whence we get finnan haddock. This was
the well-known family, who are in all the armorials. They bore Argent
a fess Gules ensigned by a demi-lion Sable, sometimes with a fleur-de-
lys Gules in base. This doesn't look much like Cameron, other than
the tinctures. Originally they were called de Camera, like the
Gadgirth family of Ayrshire. They were Provosts, Baillies and
burgesses of Aberdeen in the early days, first Provost 1397 and the
name continued into the C18 or perhaps later.