Origins of the Capetians, Komnenos and the Carolingians
Seth
me what the accepted origin of the Capetians is, are they Carolingian
cadets, or German Princelings, or Gallo Roman descendants? WHAT
EXACTLY IS THEIR ORIGINS, there are so many conflicting theories, if
no one can tell me exactly the answer, can they just list the
theories? Also I am wondering about the Origins of the Carolingians
and the Byzantine Dynasty of Komneno. THANKS IN ADVANCE
Frank Johansen
The exact origins of the Capetians are obscure.
King Hugues Capet (941-996) was the son of:
Hugues, Duke of France and Count of Paris (d.956), who was the son of:
King Robert I of France (866-923). He was the son of:
Robert, Count of Paris and of Tours (d.866). He was most probably the
son of:
Count Robert (III) in Wormsgau and Oberrheingau (d.ca.834).
Some continue this line back a noble of Neustria living in 636, called
Charibert.
--
Vennlig hilsen
Frank H. Johansen
joh...@c2i.net
The Williams Family
Here they are, as far as I can tell:
1) The earliest known Capetian ancestor is Rodbert, more commonly known as "Robert le Fort" who was a count and marquis in
Neustria, 852-866. He may have m. Emma, dau. of Conrad I of Auxerre & d. in 866 (source: Settipani, _La Prehistoire des
Capetiens, 481-987_ [Villeneuve d'Ascq, 1993]). It is thought that he was the son of Rodbert III, Count in Wormsgau (fl.
812-834) who was a great-grandson of Rodbert I, Count in Oberrhein & Wormsgau (fl. 733-764). I am unfamiliar with the
details of this alleged descent but according to the ES it is presented in K. Glockner's _Zeitschrift fur die Geschichte
des Oberrheins_, N.F. 50 [sic] (1936).
2) Traditionally the Carolingian pedigree begins with St. Arnulf, Bishop of Metz (fl. 614-629) although earlier faked
pedigrees exist. Settipani, however, argues convincingly that Arnulf was the son of Bodogisel (fl. 589), a great-grandson
of Cloderic, the Merovingian king of Cologne in 508-09. For this see generally: Settipani, _Les Ancetres de Charlemagne_
(Paris, 1989).
3) The origins of the Komnenoi are obscure but the first recorded ancestor is Manuel Komnenos Erotikos (presumably a
cognomen) who was protospathariot and later strategos autokrator (he fl. 978-989). The best modern work treating with the
Komnenoi is Barzos' magnum opus, the exact name of which I do not recall.
Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams
Stewart, Peter
> From: The Williams Family [mailto:gkkwi...@cowboy.net]
> Sent: Monday, 13 January 2003 15:12
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: Origins of the Capetians, Komnenos and the Carolingians
>
>
> Hello,
>
> Here they are, as far as I can tell:
>
> 1) The earliest known Capetian ancestor is Rodbert, more
> commonly known as "Robert le Fort" who was a count and marquis in
> Neustria, 852-866.
<snip>
> I am unfamiliar with the details of this alleged descent but
> according to the ES it is presented in K. Glockner's
>_Zeitschrift fur die Geschichte des Oberrheins_, N.F. 50 [sic]
> (1936).
This is the periodical & volume in which Glöckner's study appears - its
title is 'Lorsch und Lothringen, Robertiner und Capetinger', pp 300-354.
His argument has been generally accepted, but Constance Bouchard, for one,
is not convinced.
The request for a list of all the theories is impractical. According to the
preface of _Receuil des historiens_ volume 10, the first direct statement of
the family's origin was recorded by Conrad of Ursperg in the 13th century -
he said Robert le Fort was the son of Witikind, a German. In 1833 a
manuscript was discovered of Richer's history, the source for this
information, written in the 10th century and lost since the 15th. He also
stated that Robert was "ex equestri ordine". No-one accepts this today, as
far as I know.
Aimoin of Fleury (10th/early 11th century) called him "Saxonici generis
vir". Other early sources suggest he was born in Neustria, or an Eastern
Frank (possibly meaning the same thing). A source from Maine called him a
Burgundian. Helgaud of Fleury relates that Robert the Pious said his
ancestors came from Italy, but this is usually interpreted as being about
remote legend rather than proximate fact - or as applying to his mother's
family & not the Capetians in the first place (the usually accepted Poitevin
origin for her is shaky).
Many theories have been put forward, mostly variations on the mixed themes
of the above & circumstantial evidence.
Perhaps the most sensible attitude is that of a prince de Condé, from the
Bourbon branch, who said something along these lines to ambitious scholars
of his day (this from memory):
"Sirs, I thank you for your efforts to trace the ancestry of my family over
eleven centuries - but we content ourselves with the past eight, and with
indisputable titles."
Peter Stewart
D.C.Meister
> Ok, I am completely confused about some things here, can anyone tell
> me what the accepted origin of the Capetians is, are they Carolingian
> cadets, or German Princelings, or Gallo Roman descendants? WHAT
> EXACTLY IS THEIR ORIGINS, there are so many conflicting theories, if
> no one can tell me exactly the answer, can they just list the
Search in the archives for "Pairs of brothers Odo/Robert", Todd Farmerie
did make there informations about 2 theories about poss. ancestry of
Robert the Strong.
Detlef
Grethe Bachmann
""Stewart, Peter"" <Peter....@crsrehab.gov.au> skrev i en meddelelse
news:BE9CF8DEAB7ED311B05E...@v003138e.crsrehab.gov.au...
I don't know if this is of interest to you - and you probably know it
already - but I've got something on Mathilde (wife of Henrik 1.
Vogelfänger) - that she was a descendant of Widukind/Witikind.
So - if Robert le Fort was the son of Widukind - then Mathilde might
be his sister - or his daughter maybe? - according to the dates?
And if her daughter was married to grandduke Hugues of Paris? - then
there is a double family-connection of Capetiens here. But I don't
know if I'm right. I've got two different infos about that.
I also think it's interesting to see - now you're talking about the
Capetiens - that William the Conqueror's great-great-grandfather
was Hugues, grandduke of Paris. I hadn't noticed that before.
So he both had viking, normann and capetien blood in his veins.
No wonder he was a conqueror!
Best wishes
Grethe
Todd A. Farmerie
> I don't know if this is of interest to you - and you probably know it
> already - but I've got something on Mathilde (wife of Henrik 1.
> Vogelfänger) - that she was a descendant of Widukind/Witikind.
> So - if Robert le Fort was the son of Widukind - then Mathilde might
> be his sister - or his daughter maybe?
These are not the same people. Mathilde is descended (it is
claimed) from teh Saxon chief Widukind, who was defeated by
Charlemagne. Witikind (Guiguin), the man who Robert is
supposedly son of, cannot be this man (for chronological reasons)
nor would such a connection be easily forgotten.
- according to the dates?
> And if her daughter was married to grandduke Hugues of Paris? - then
> there is a double family-connection of Capetiens here. But I don't
> know if I'm right. I've got two different infos about that.
>
> I also think it's interesting to see - now you're talking about the
> Capetiens - that William the Conqueror's great-great-grandfather
> was Hugues, grandduke of Paris.
I don't think this is right. Of eight possible great-great-
grandfathers of William, only three are known: William Longsword
of Normandy, Judicael Berenger of Rennes, and Geoffrey Greycloak
of Anjou.
taf
Grethe Bachmann
"Todd A. Farmerie" <farm...@interfold.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:3E2398AE...@interfold.com...
> Grethe Bachmann wrote:
>
>
> > I don't know if this is of interest to you - and you probably know it
> > already - but I've got something on Mathilde (wife of Henrik 1.
> > Vogelfänger) - that she was a descendant of Widukind/Witikind.
> > So - if Robert le Fort was the son of Widukind - then Mathilde might
> > be his sister - or his daughter maybe?
>
> These are not the same people. Mathilde is descended (it is
> claimed) from teh Saxon chief Widukind, who was defeated by
> Charlemagne. Witikind (Guiguin), the man who Robert is
> supposedly son of, cannot be this man (for chronological reasons)
> nor would such a connection be easily forgotten.
Hello Todd!
Thank you very much! I haven't been able to find anything
about Widukind. I assumed wrongly that it was the same
person.
> - according to the dates?
> > And if her daughter was married to grandduke Hugues of Paris? - then
> > there is a double family-connection of Capetiens here. But I don't
> > know if I'm right. I've got two different infos about that.
> >
> > I also think it's interesting to see - now you're talking about the
> > Capetiens - that William the Conqueror's great-great-grandfather
> > was Hugues, grandduke of Paris.
>
> I don't think this is right. Of eight possible great-great-
> grandfathers of William, only three are known: William Longsword
> of Normandy, Judicael Berenger of Rennes, and Geoffrey Greycloak
> of Anjou.
>
Then I've got the wrong info again! As I see it, William's
great-grandparents
were Richard 1. of Normandy and_ Gunnor_ (the "Jewel of Normandy"),
who was the daughter of Hugues of Paris and Hedwig.( Therefore the link
from William to Hugues as great-great-grandfather.)
And when I search for Hedwig there is also some confusion here. I've got two
choices: Either she is a daughter of Heinrich 1 and Mathilde or a daughter
of Edward the Elder!!!
Can you tell me what's the truth?
Best wishes
Grethe
> taf
>
The Williams Family
This chart relies on older sources and is probably not 100% accurate but here
is a brief rundown of William the Conqueror's ancestry:
1. Guillaume le Batard ou le Conquerant, Duc de Normandie. b. prob. Autumn 1028
in Falaise, Normandy. m. bet. Autumn 1049 & the end of 1053 to Mathilde, dau. of
Baldwin V, Count of Flanders & Adele, dau. of Robert I, King of France. She d. 2
Nov 1083 & was bu. in the nunnery she had founded in Caen. He d. 9 Sep 1087 in
Rouen & was bu. in the monastery of St. Stephen, Caen. (David C. Douglas,
_William the Conqueror: The Norman Impact upon England_ [1964, new edition, New
Haven, CT: Yale University Press, 1999]).
2. Robert I le Diable, Duc de Normandie. d. 22 Jul 1035 in Nicaea. (ES II: 36;
EB 10: 103).
3. Herleve. Not married. (ES II: 36; Douglas, p. 379).
4. Richard II le Bon, Duc de Normandie. m. c1000. d. 28 Aug 1026. (ES II: 36;
EB 10: 45).
5. Judith de Rennes. b. c982. d. 1017. (ES II: 36).
6. Fulbert, a tanner of Falaise. (ES II: 36; Douglas, p. 379).
8. Richard I sans Peur, Duc de Normandie. b. c932. d. 20 Nov 996. (ES II: 36;
EB 10: 45).
9. Gunnor. d. 1031. (ES II: 36).
10. Conan I, Comte de Rennes. d. 992. (Turton, 6, 188).
11. Ermengarde d'Anjou. (Turton, 6).
16. Guillaume I Longue-Epee, Duc de Normandie. d. 17 Dec 942, Picardy. (ES II:
36; EB 12: 675).
17. Sprota from Bretagne (de Senlis?). (ES II: 36; Turton, 6).
20. Juhel Berenger, Comte de Rennes. d. 952. (Turton, 188).
21. Gerberge. (Turton, 188).
22. Geoffrey I, Comte d'Anjou. d. 987. (Turton, 6).
23. Adelaide de Chalons. d. 976. (Turton, 6, 80).
32. Rollo, Duc de Normandie. b. c860. d. c932. Probably not the son of
Rognewald of More. (ES II: 36; EB 10: 147).
33. Poppa de Bayeux. m. 886. (ES II: 36).
34. Hubert, Comte de Senlis? (Turton, 6).
40. Judicael, Comte de Rennes. d. 888. Maternal grandson of Erispoe, King of
Brittany. (Turton, 188).
44. Fulk II, Comte d'Anjou. d. 960. (Turton, 6).
45. Gerberge d'Arles. (Turton, 6).
46. Robert de Vermandois. d. 968. (Turton, 80).
47. Adelaide de Chalons. (Turton, 80).
ES = Isenburg & Loringhoven, _Europaische Stammtafeln_ (1960)
EB = _Encyclopaedia Britannica_ (1986 Edition)
Turton = Turton, _The Plantagenet Ancestry_ (1928)
Todd is right, as far as I can tell William doesn't descend from Hugues de Paris.
Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams
Todd A. Farmerie
> Then I've got the wrong info again! As I see it, William's
> great-grandparents
> were Richard 1. of Normandy and_ Gunnor_ (the "Jewel of Normandy"),
> who was the daughter of Hugues of Paris and Hedwig.( Therefore the link
> from William to Hugues as great-great-grandfather.)
> And when I search for Hedwig there is also some confusion here. I've got two
> choices: Either she is a daughter of Heinrich 1 and Mathilde or a daughter
> of Edward the Elder!!!
>
> Can you tell me what's the truth?
Richard married the daughter fo Hugh, but had no children by her.
He then married his long-time mistress, Gunnor, whose parentage
is unknown.
Hugh married the daughter of Eadweard, but had no children by
her, and he married Hedwig, daughter of Heinrich and Mathilde.
taf
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> This chart relies on older sources and is probably not 100% accurate but here
> is a brief rundown of William the Conqueror's ancestry:
> 16. Guillaume I Longue-Epee, Duc de Normandie. d. 17 Dec 942, Picardy. (ES II:
> 36; EB 12: 675).
> 17. Sprota from Bretagne (de Senlis?). (ES II: 36; Turton, 6).
> 20. Juhel Berenger, Comte de Rennes. d. 952. (Turton, 188).
> 21. Gerberge. (Turton, 188).
> 22. Geoffrey I, Comte d'Anjou. d. 987. (Turton, 6).
> 23. Adelaide de Chalons. d. 976. (Turton, 6, 80).
>
> 32. Rollo, Duc de Normandie. b. c860. d. c932. Probably not the son of
> Rognewald of More. (ES II: 36; EB 10: 147).
> 33. Poppa de Bayeux. m. 886. (ES II: 36).
> 34. Hubert, Comte de Senlis? (Turton, 6).
This is almost certainly wrong. It is based on a string of
relationships that more likely link through Poppa, and not Sprota.
> 40. Judicael, Comte de Rennes. d. 888. Maternal grandson of Erispoe, King of
> Brittany. (Turton, 188).
Turton is severely outdated when it comes to the Breton lines.
Lot has presented documentation that appears to show Conan
Berenger son of Judicael Berenger (Juhel is the same name) and
Judicael son of a Count Berenger. It has been suggested more
recently that he was maternal grandson of an earlier Count
Berenger, a germanic sent to Brittany to administer it. (The
intervening generation is probably where the dynasty intermarried
with the natives Counts, but the exact connection remains
obscure.) The older Berenger is thought to have married a
kinswoman of Guy, Count of Senlis, and also had (in addition to
the mother of the younger Berenger) a daughter Poppa, who brought
this Senlis kinship to both William Longsword and Richard I.
taf
Grethe Bachmann
Thank you! I have now corrected my infos.
Grethe
The Williams Family
Thanks for the corrections. What do you think is the best modern source for the
Breton lines? I know Turton can't be relied upon but I'm not familiar with any of the
recent scholarship concerning the Counts of Rennes & Brittany.
Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams
> The Williams Family wrote:
> >
> > This chart relies on older sources and is probably not 100% accurate but here
> > is a brief rundown of William the Conqueror's ancestry:
> 6. (Turton, 6, 80).
<snip>
Stewart, Peter
> From: Todd A. Farmerie [mailto:farm...@interfold.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, 15 January 2003 3:00
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: Origins of the Capetians, Komnenos and the Carolingians
>
>
> The older Berenger is thought to have married a
> kinswoman of Guy, Count of Senlis, and also had (in addition to
> the mother of the younger Berenger) a daughter Poppa, who brought
> this Senlis kinship to both William Longsword and Richard I.
It might be more accurate to say "The older Berenger is thought by
some....". Even if there was a connection to a Guy, count of Senlis, I
haven't seen any convincing argument that Poppa was a genuine baptismal name
of any female from any noble family in the late 9th/early 10th century. This
would appear to me a sensible preliminary to the mass of speculation from
onomastics in recent years, but is still lacking. The name seems to me just
as likely to be a version that Dudo picked up from someone's dim and
misplaced memory of a woman from the Pobba or Papae, names used by the Irish
and although Latinised) probably also the Vikings for the native landed clan
in the Orkneys, or even borrowed for Rollo's Christian wife from the account
of a priest named as "Poppa" (thought to be a Poppo) who had allegedly
converted the Danes (which Dudo thought to be Rollo's people) by the famous
miracle of putting on a red-hot iron glove.
Was there ever another documented woman from the Popponid family with this
name?
Peter Stewart
Sally Laine
I'm very interested in the Popponen family and have read as much as I can on
this group. I have never found any trace of a female Poppa or even any
female names with a Pop - derivative.
Sally
Todd A. Farmerie
> Hello,
>
> Thanks for the corrections. What do you think is the best modern source for the
> Breton lines? I know Turton can't be relied upon but I'm not familiar with any of the
> recent scholarship concerning the Counts of Rennes & Brittany.
I have only seen them discussed in a couple of places, and both
of them inadequately.
To start, I would suggest the source I misattributed in my
previous post: Rene Merlet, Origine de la famille des Berenger
comtes de Rennes et ducs de Bretagne, in Melanges d'Histoire du
Moyen Age Offerts a M. Ferdinand Lot par ses Amis et ses Eleves,
Paris, 1925, pp. 549-61. Also, I see that Hubert Guillotel has
published several articles of interest in Memoires de la Societe
d'Histoire et d'Archeologie de Bretagne, to which I do not have
access. The best source, if you can lay your hands on it, might
be his doctoral thesis, Les actes des ducs de Bretagne (944-1148)
[Paris, 1973]. I recall another discussion of his book
chapter, but cannot recall the bibliographic information.
Looking at Guillotel's bibliography, it may have been:Les temps
des rois VIIIe - Xe siecle, in Chedeville and Guillotel, eds., La
Bretagne des saints et des rois Ve - Xe siecle. Finally, a
description of this theory in English is given by Katherine
Keats-Rohan, Poppa of Bayeux and her Family, The American
Genealogist, 72: 187-204.
taf
Todd A. Farmerie
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Todd A. Farmerie [mailto:farm...@interfold.com]
>>Sent: Wednesday, 15 January 2003 3:00
>>To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
>>Subject: Re: Origins of the Capetians, Komnenos and the Carolingians
>>
>>
>
> <snip>
>
>> The older Berenger is thought to have married a
>>kinswoman of Guy, Count of Senlis, and also had (in addition to
>>the mother of the younger Berenger) a daughter Poppa, who brought
>>this Senlis kinship to both William Longsword and Richard I.
>
>
> It might be more accurate to say "The older Berenger is thought by
> some....".
It may be the soul of wit, but brevity fails miserably at
conveying complex connections.
> Even if there was a connection to a Guy, count of Senlis, I
> haven't seen any convincing argument that Poppa was a genuine baptismal name
> of any female from any noble family in the late 9th/early 10th century. This
> would appear to me a sensible preliminary to the mass of speculation from
> onomastics in recent years, but is still lacking.
Hold on. The theories that the woman in question was daughter of
Berenger, and relative of the Count of Senlis, are both
independent of her name.
First Berenger - Dudo reports that 'Poppa' was daughter of
Berenger _princeps_, who Rollo had fought at Bayeux in 885. Now
the obvious person for Rollo to be fighting at Bayeux would be
the Count of Nuestria, who at the time was none other than a
Count Berenger (and whose sway included at least part of the
Breton state). The identity of this Berenger is not agreed upon.
Guillotel thinks he is a Konradinger, grandson of Gebhard of
Lahngau, while an alternative makes him son of the Popponid
Heinrich of Thuringia. While one or the other of these
hypotheses may gain support from her name (I have not seen
either) the connection of 'Poppa' to the Nuestrian count does not
depend on it (at least as I have seen it explained). It may be
in conflict with the Senlis connection.
Now, as to the Senlis connection, Dudo calls a Bernard, Count of
Senlis, "avunculus" of William Longsword (and elsewhere, of
Richard I - this is why Sprota is sometimes derived from Senlis,
but ignores the connection with Longsword). The later Annales
rouennaises states that Poppa was daughter of Guy and sister of
Bernard, Count of Senlis. This is certainly in conflict with the
Berenger hypothesis, but two possible explanations have been
proposed: first, that Count Berenger married the widow of Count
Guy, and that Poppa was step-daughter of Guy; or second, that
knowing the father of Bernard was Guy, the chronicler made Poppa
daughter of Guy to harmonize with Dudo's avunculus explanation.
Unfortunately, I have not seen any of these discussed in enough
detail to evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of any of the
connections.
taf
The Williams Family
Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams
Stewart Baldwin
<farm...@interfold.com> wrote:
>First Berenger - Dudo reports that 'Poppa' was daughter of
>Berenger _princeps_, who Rollo had fought at Bayeux in 885. Now
>the obvious person for Rollo to be fighting at Bayeux would be
>the Count of Nuestria, who at the time was none other than a
>Count Berenger (and whose sway included at least part of the
>Breton state). The identity of this Berenger is not agreed upon.
> Guillotel thinks he is a Konradinger, grandson of Gebhard of
>Lahngau, while an alternative makes him son of the Popponid
>Heinrich of Thuringia. While one or the other of these
>hypotheses may gain support from her name (I have not seen
>either) the connection of 'Poppa' to the Nuestrian count does not
>depend on it (at least as I have seen it explained). It may be
>in conflict with the Senlis connection.
I am uncomfortable with these attempts to identify the Berengar said
by Dudo to be father of "Poppa" with any Berengar from other sources.
While I find it plausible enough that William's maternal grandfather
was in fact named Berengar as Dudo claimed (a piece of information
likely enough to have been remembered in Dudo's time), the setting of
Dudo's account is legendary, and makes it difficult to supply a
legitimate historical context that would be necessary to provide a
convincing identification for Dudo's Berengar (assuming that the name
was correctly reported, which is plausible but not certain).
Stewart Baldwin
Stewart, Peter
> From: Todd A. Farmerie [mailto:farm...@interfold.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, 15 January 2003 17:04
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: Origins of the Capetians, Komnenos and the Carolingians
>
> <snip>
> Senlis, "avunculus" of William Longsword (and elsewhere, of
> Richard I - this is why Sprota is sometimes derived from Senlis,
> but ignores the connection with Longsword). The later Annales
> rouennaises states that Poppa was daughter of Guy and sister of
> Bernard, Count of Senlis. This is certainly in conflict with the
> Berenger hypothesis, but two possible explanations have been
> proposed: first, that Count Berenger married the widow of Count
> Guy, and that Poppa was step-daughter of Guy; or second, that
> knowing the father of Bernard was Guy, the chronicler made Poppa
> daughter of Guy to harmonize with Dudo's avunculus explanation.
> Unfortunately, I have not seen any of these discussed in enough
> detail to evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of any of the
> connections.
Well, in the rushed post yesterday my unexplained point was that Dudo is
worth no more now than he was to his medieval followers - an "intellectual
nullity" as Lucien Musset called him. The recent tendency to take him more
at his word is not nearly substantiated for me, at least in the matter of
Rollo and William's relationships. Dudo's clearest overall purpose was to
aggrandise the Norman rulers, and partly to integrate their history with
current status as rulers and most honoured vassals in France. Bogus
connections to counterpart families are hardly out of his way. The few
scraps of independent evidence tend to contradict him on his own subject.
Practically every commentator throws out Dudo's account of Rollo's second
Frankish wife, said to be the king's daughter Gisela. Yet they cling to
Poppa of Bayeux and the statement that a Prince Berenger was her father, and
that a count of Senlis was William's avunculus. I agree that these
relationships don't depend on her name - or, behind Dudo's malleable
authority, perhaps even on Rollo's wife who was William's natural mother.
Bet they do depend for us on a demonstrably unreliable reporter, with a
special interest, and for me they are not lent any more credibility by the
suspicious and apparently unexampled name her gave to the lady.
If a scholar wants to harmonise Dudo's statements, why not try all of them;
or at least make a coherent argument as to the selection of acccepted bits &
pieces beyond their usefulness to the author's theory? My point is that both
the hypotheses you describe above are only worth as much as Dudo in the
first place, or rather the theorist's preferred part of Dudo plus later work
informed principally by him.
Meanwhile, you didn't answer my question - is there an independently
documented female named "Poppa" in any Christian family at the time?
Peter Stewart
Todd A. Farmerie
> Meanwhile, you didn't answer my question - is there an independently
> documented female named "Poppa" in any Christian family at the time?
Don't know - haven't looked.
taf
Christian Settipani
For the Carolingians' ancestry, I allow to my recent paper ' L'apport de l'
onomastique dans l'étude des généalogies carolingiennes', Onomastique et
Parenté, I, p. 185-229, where I study again the problem. Even, if one doesn'
t follow my conclusions, one will find there most sources and the main
modern theories.
B)
For the Capetians' ancestry, the texts are the following ones:
- Annales Floriacensis, s. a. 866: Robert the Strong was one of the powerful
('inter primores') ;
- Annales Xanthensis, (c. 875) s. a. 867: Robert was native of 'Francia'
('ortus de Francia') ;
- Abbon of Saint-Germain-des-Près (c. 895): the King Odo (Eudes) was
Neustrian, but the election was greeted with the people of 'Francia'
('Francia laetatur, quamuis is Nustricus esset') ;
- Foulque of Reims (893) (in Flod., Hist. Rem., IV , 5): King Odo was
foreign to the royal family (' ab stirpe regia alienus ') ;
- Réginon of Prüm (c. 905), s. a. 861: Robert the Strong arose from a noble
family ('generosa stirpis') ;
- Widukind (c. 968), I, 29: King Odo was native of Francia Orientale ('ex
orientalibus Francia') ;
- Richer, (c. 995), I, 5: King Odo was the son of Robert, member of the
equestrian order, and the paternal grandson of Witichin, a German foreigner
('ex equestri ordine Rotbertum, auum uero paternum Witichinum, aduenam
Germanum')
- Aimoin of Fleury (c. 1005), Mirac. Sanct. Bened. II, 1: Robert was a Saxon
('saxonici generis uir').
To clarify what follows, I recall that Neustria was the North of France
(with notably Orléannais, Paris, Picardy) and that 'Francia' is in Germany,
the region around Worms, Spire or Mainz.
After a brief enthousiasm due to his recent discovery (so C. von Kalckstein
in 1871) Richer's evidence was soon dismissed, and so for Aimoin's. These
evidence were contradictory with others and scholars explain them by
confusions (e.g. : Witichin = Wido(kin), Saxony = Saosnois in Maine), or
more simply by polemic forgeries easily understandable in the context of the
change of dynasty. So, in the mid eleventh century, Raoul Glaber says that
King Robert I's family was obscure (I, 1 : cuius genus ... repperitur
obscurum').
Main modern theories are the following ones:
- A. de Barthelemy (1873): Robert the Strong, son of William, count of Blois
and nephew of Odo, count of Orléans.
- R. Merlet (1895/7): Robert, son of William, count of Blois, himself son of
a lord of 'Francia'.
- J. Depoin (1905) and M. Chaume (1925): Robert is the son of Guy the Young
(Wido-kin) and of a sister of William count of Blois and Odo count of
Orlêans. Guy the Young is the son of Guy, marquis of Brittany, brother of
Robert, count of Wormsgau and son of Adalhelm.
- F Gabotto ( 1924 ): Robert is the son of Anselm, son of Theoderic, count
of Frize (+ 793), son of Robert, count of Rheingau (741), son of Robert,
count of Sundgau (673), son of Robert, mayor of Neustrie's palace (677), son
of Robert, referendarius 630, son of Caribert (636), son of Ethelbert, king
of Kent.
Capetian's origins was then revolutionized by the article of K. Glöckner
(1937). He demonstrates that Robert the Strong, native of Francia, is
identical with Robert, who was in Francia in 836, son of Robert, count of
Wormsgau (804/12 - 825/834).
This point seems, in my view, definitively demonstrated and isn't so far
contested.
Two theories are in confrontation today for the continuation:
-That of K. Glöckner: Robert of Wormsgau would be the son of Robert, count
of Rheingau (795-807), son of Thurincbert, son of Robert, duke of Hesbaye c.
741.
-That of J. Siegwart (1958): Robert of Wormsgau would be the son of Robert
II, count of Argengau and Linzgau, son of Robert I, count of Argengau and
Linzgau (770/4-886), son of Nebi, count in Alemania.
K Glöckner was followed and completed notably by K. F. Werner, and J.
Siegwart's theory received the recent support of D. Jackman.
For reasons which I shall expose somewhere else, I prefer at this time
Glöckner's thesis.
In every case, it is very likely than the mother of Robert the Strong was
Waldrada, sister of Odo, count of Orléans and daughter of Hadrian, count of
Wormsgau (brother of the queen Hildegarde and grandson of Nebi of Alemania)
and of Waldrada, niece of S. William of Toulouse.
By the way I point out that these filiations have nothing to do with the
false genealogy forged by J. du Bouchet in 1646 who make Robert the Strong
the son of another Robert and a sister of Odo of Orléans. J. du Bouchet was
right by mere coincidence.
One believed for a long time that Robert's wife was Adélaïde 'of Tours',
widow of Conrad of Auxerre, and this is still the position of K. F. Werner.
I prefer to think that she was a daughter of Conrad and Adélaïde, maybe
named Emma (so, C. Bouchard). Of this union arise Kings Odo and his brother
Robert I, both born in Neustria (it is necessary to delete here Regilinde
whom I mention very wrongly in 'La Prehistoire' as sister of the king Odo
and who was really a sister of Odo, count of Toulouse).
C)
For the Komnenoi, it is necessary to refer to K. Varzos, The genealogy of
Komnenoi, 2 vol., 1984 (in Greek), t. I, p. 25 sqq. :
The late legends which claim that Komnenoi were stemming from a relative of
Constantin I are without any foundation and did not even exist at the time
of Anna Komnena (see K. Varzos, op. cit.). The family was native of a
thracian village called Komne, whose location remains obscure.
The first of the Komnenoi who is known to us was Manouel Komnenos Erotikos
(K. Varzos, I, no 2, p. 38-9). Doubtless son of one (Isaakios?) Komnenos and
of one Erotika (sister of Théophilos?: the (Paphlagonian ?) family of
Erotikoi is badly known, it is the object of a short note by A. Kazhdan);
Manouel was perhaps brother of Nikephoros, patrikios, katepan of Media 1016
(+ 1026 : Varzos, n° 3, p. 39-40 ; J.-C. Cheynet, 1990, p. 38) ;
In any case, Manouel was born probably towards 955; patrikios,
protospatharios, (count of Opsikion); domestikos of the scholai of the East;
died in 1020/5. He was father of Isaakios (Isaac) (*1007, + 1060, emperor
1057-9), Iohannes (John) (*c. 1015,+ 1067, couropalates and domestikos of
scholai 1057) and doubtless two daughters : Ne, wife of a Kontostéphanos
(J.-C. Cheynet, 1990, p. 277) and Ne, wife of Michael Dokeianos (K. Varzos,
n° 5, p. 47-9).
D) For Poppa
One can not consider in the same way Dudo's testimony on Poppa and on
Gisele. In the second case, it is an evident forgery of which model and
motives are transparent. This is not right for the first case. I was
probably hypercritic on this point in 'La Préhistoire'. If the circumstances
of Rollon's marriage such as reports them Dudon are apparently legendary, it
is little credible on the other hand that Richard II, under who writes
Dudon, was able to ignore the identity of his great-grandmother. Moreover,
Berenger is named in a charter in 892. In good criticism, Dudo's testimony
preferable to that of the later Annals which make Poppa the daughter of
Wido. I am not at home these days and I can't verify, but I believe that it
should be possible to find women named Pop(p)a or Bob(b)a. Anyway the
existence of the male name Pop(p)o / Bob(b)o is enough to guarantee the
credibility of the name in the feminine.
Stewart, Peter
> From: Christian Settipani [mailto:ina...@club-internet.fr]
> Sent: Friday, 17 January 2003 1:33
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: Origins of the Capetians, Komnenos and the Carolingians
>
>
<snip>
>
> One can not consider in the same way Dudo's testimony on Poppa and on
> Gisele. In the second case, it is an evident forgery of which
> model and motives are transparent. This is not right for the first
> case. I was probably hypercritic on this point in 'La Préhistoire'.
> If the circumstances of Rollon's marriage such as reports them Dudon
> are apparently legendary, it is little credible on the other hand that
> Richard II, under who writes Dudon, was able to ignore the identity of
> his great-grandmother. Moreover, Berenger is named in a charter in 892.
> In good criticism, Dudo's testimony preferable to that of the later
> Annals which make Poppa the daughter of Wido. I am not at home these
> days and I can't verify, but I believe that it should be possible to
> find women named Pop(p)a or Bob(b)a. Anyway the existence of the male
> name Pop(p)o / Bob(b)o is enough to guarantee the credibility of the
> name in the feminine.
The last point is quite mystifying - does the name of a Count Samson
guarantee the credibility of female relatives named "Samsona"? By the time
of Rollo's spouse Frankish names were usually transmitted in full, not as
combinations of elements common to both genders, whatever their origin.
Marie-Therese Morlet didn't list any Poppa or Bobba. She did find a Poppo in
a document of Gorze abbey, and a Papia in the same cartulary at a different
time. But she traced only the male name to a Germanic origin, not the
female. I don't know why, possibly she just meant the transmission but still
she didn't link the names.
As for the rest - I still find the selection from Dudo's evidence to be
arbitrary. Just because we have another account suspiciously similar to the
one about the princess Gisela, we can say "Oh yes, Dudo cobbled that on",
for colour, or his patron's prestige, or whatever - as a direct and
conscious falsehood & in the face of any possible memory of the facts that
Duke Richard could have held. But when we have no other evidence to compare
with his tale of "Poppa" in the same context, except that a Berengar is
named as her father and we can find a few of those, some writers go to town
on the subject. Yet most of them so far neglect the basic preliminary
argument: how to establish the worth of Dudo's account, or the comparative
worth of it parts, _independently_ of the mere circumstance that some of it
happens to suit a particular theory.
We have the _Planctus_ for evidence that William was born "in orbe
transmarino", of a Christian mother & before his father's conversion.
Supposing, as most historians now do, that Rollo arrived in Normandy ca 905,
and that whatever his family background the Orkneys were a mosy likely
staging post, in the generalised "world overseas" from France at that time,
on the travels of a Viking raider. Where is he more apt to have found a
first Christian wife? And from what background is such a woman more likely
to have come from than the local landowning families of the Orkneys and
Hebrides, known as "Pobba"?
Peter Stewart
Stewart Baldwin
Peter....@crsrehab.gov.au ("Stewart, Peter") wrote:
>Meanwhile, you didn't answer my question - is there an independently
>documented female named "Poppa" in any Christian family at the time?
I don't know of one, although I've never made any kind of systematic
search. However, there is good reason to believe that any such
reference (if one exists) would only be found in some obscure and
overlooked source. The reason for believing this is simple: if such
a reference were known, then the literature would probably be littered
with numerous attempts (justified or not) to establish a connection to
Dudo's "Poppa".
Stewart Baldwin
Stewart Baldwin
Peter....@crsrehab.gov.au ("Stewart, Peter") wrote:
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Christian Settipani [mailto:ina...@club-internet.fr]
[snip]
>>... Anyway the existence of the male
>> name Pop(p)o / Bob(b)o is enough to guarantee the credibility of the
>> name in the feminine.
>
>The last point is quite mystifying - does the name of a Count Samson
>guarantee the credibility of female relatives named "Samsona"? By the time
>of Rollo's spouse Frankish names were usually transmitted in full, not as
>combinations of elements common to both genders, whatever their origin.
There is obviously a big difference here between the name "Samson"
(which is of Biblical origin) and "Poppo", the latter of which would
be more plausibly converted to a feminine version.
[snip]
>As for the rest - I still find the selection from Dudo's evidence to be
>arbitrary. Just because we have another account suspiciously similar to the
>one about the princess Gisela, we can say "Oh yes, Dudo cobbled that on",
>for colour, or his patron's prestige, or whatever - as a direct and
>conscious falsehood & in the face of any possible memory of the facts that
>Duke Richard could have held. But when we have no other evidence to compare
>with his tale of "Poppa" in the same context, except that a Berengar is
>named as her father and we can find a few of those, some writers go to town
>on the subject. Yet most of them so far neglect the basic preliminary
>argument: how to establish the worth of Dudo's account, or the comparative
>worth of it parts, _independently_ of the mere circumstance that some of it
>happens to suit a particular theory.
That is certainly a problem, and not only for Dudo. One test that I
would suggest is to look at the degree of elaborateness of the various
passages. For example, if Dudo is offering alleged direct quotes from
his characters, then he is clearly in literary entertainment mode, and
the the statements can be viewed with great suspicion as likely
concoctions of Dudo himself (especially for the time before living
memory). If, on the other hand, a statement of an event is of a more
laconic sort, making a relatively simple statement, and then going on
to other subjects without elaboration, I suggest that it is much more
likely to at least be a valid statement of tradition rather than a
concoction of Dudo (especially if the statement is one where Dudo is
likely to have had good sources of information).
Poppa's parentage seems to belong in the latter class. The statement
comes up briefly in the middle of other events, and he then goes on
quickly to other matters. When Dudo makes up a story, he seems to go
to much more effort than this very brief account. Compare this to the
very elaborate story of Rollo's fictional marriage with Gisela, which
quite clearly belongs in the former class.
While I am not suggesting that this give clear proof that Poppa was
the daughter of a count Berengar (and I am unconvinced by attempts to
go further and identify him with a specific Berengar), I do think that
the statement has enough weight to be mentioned with some sort of
qualification, say, for example, that "Poppa" is said to have been the
daughter of a count Berengar.
I have a similar view of Bernard of Senlis. If Dudo were making up
the claimed relationship of Bernard to the Norman leaders, I think he
would have at least bothered to make his story consistent. Thus, I
think it likely that Bernard was somehow related. On the other hand,
I do not see this as justification to press for a more specific
relationship unless more evidence than I have seen is presented.
>We have the _Planctus_ for evidence that William was born "in orbe
>transmarino", of a Christian mother & before his father's conversion.
>Supposing, as most historians now do, that Rollo arrived in Normandy ca 905,
>and that whatever his family background the Orkneys were a mosy likely
>staging post, in the generalised "world overseas" from France at that time,
>on the travels of a Viking raider. Where is he more apt to have found a
>first Christian wife? And from what background is such a woman more likely
>to have come from than the local landowning families of the Orkneys and
>Hebrides, known as "Pobba"?
While it is true that the Icelandic and Norwegian sources give Rollo
an Orkney connection, these sources are more than a century and a half
later than Dudo, and these sources would almost certainly score more
poorly that Dudo in objective tests of reliability for events of the
early tenth century. In fact, the Orkneys (off the Northern tip of
Scotland) hardly look like the most likely staging area for attacks on
Normandy, and the stories told by the Normans themselves (which ought
to count for at least something) show no hint of Orkney origins.
We know that the Viking Hasting (prominent in Dudo's first book) began
raiding in England in the 890's after his career raiding in France
(this is from the annals, not Dudo), and we know of an obscure Viking
king named Cnut who minted coins from both York and Quentovic ca. 900.
Thus, even if there is no contemporary evidence for Rollo's movements,
one scenario that is at least plausible is that Rollo raided in France
for a while, then in England, and then back in Normandy. If so, he
could have picked up a Christian wife Poppa in France, been overseas
for the birth of William as the Planctus states, and then come back
for the main events. Of course, that scenario is speculative, but it
seems more plausible to me than an Orkney connection that is based on
sources less reliable even than Dudo.
Stewart Baldwin
Stewart, Peter
> From: sba...@mindspring.com [mailto:sba...@mindspring.com]
> Sent: Saturday, 18 January 2003 10:20
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: Origins of the Capetians, Komnenos and the Carolingians
>
>
> >documented female named "Poppa" in any Christian family at the time?
>
> I don't know of one, although I've never made any kind of systematic
> search. However, there is good reason to believe that any such
> reference (if one exists) would only be found in some obscure and
> overlooked source. The reason for believing this is simple: if such
> a reference were known, then the literature would probably be littered
> with numerous attempts (justified or not) to establish a connection to
> Dudo's "Poppa".
My question was merely rhetorical - there are no women called "Poppa"
amongst the documented Popponen, just as we don't find bevies called "Suppa"
amongst the Supponen, etc, etc. That is why I find it very odd that this
mouldy scrap, from such a jejune source as Dudo, should be gobbled down with
such relish by some.
But Christian Settipani is too busy to look into this at present; and from
his immense store of knowledge he may have more to say later in
contradiction of my view.
Peter Stewart
Stewart, Peter
> From: sba...@mindspring.com [mailto:sba...@mindspring.com]
> Sent: Saturday, 18 January 2003 10:23
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: Origins of the Capetians, Komnenos and the Carolingians
>
>
> >> From: Christian Settipani [mailto:ina...@club-internet.fr]
>
> [snip]
>
> >>... Anyway the existence of the male
> >> name Pop(p)o / Bob(b)o is enough to guarantee the
> credibility of the
> >> name in the feminine.
> >
> >The last point is quite mystifying - does the name of a Count Samson
> >guarantee the credibility of female relatives named
> "Samsona"? By the time
> >of Rollo's spouse Frankish names were usually transmitted in
> full, not as
> >combinations of elements common to both genders, whatever
> their origin.
>
> There is obviously a big difference here between the name "Samson"
> (which is of Biblical origin) and "Poppo", the latter of which would
> be more plausibly converted to a feminine version.
Are you suggesting that medieval noblemen were keen and expert etymologists
in respect of their name-stock?
<snip>
>
> That is certainly a problem, and not only for Dudo. One test that I
> would suggest is to look at the degree of elaborateness of the various
> passages. For example, if Dudo is offering alleged direct quotes from
> his characters, then he is clearly in literary entertainment mode, and
> the the statements can be viewed with great suspicion as likely
> concoctions of Dudo himself (especially for the time before living
> memory). If, on the other hand, a statement of an event is of a more
> laconic sort, making a relatively simple statement, and then going on
> to other subjects without elaboration, I suggest that it is much more
> likely to at least be a valid statement of tradition rather than a
> concoction of Dudo (especially if the statement is one where Dudo is
> likely to have had good sources of information).
>
> Poppa's parentage seems to belong in the latter class. The statement
> comes up briefly in the middle of other events, and he then goes on
> quickly to other matters. When Dudo makes up a story, he seems to go
> to much more effort than this very brief account. Compare this to the
> very elaborate story of Rollo's fictional marriage with Gisela, which
> quite clearly belongs in the former class.
This kind of literary analysis applied to Dudo seems to me very uncertain
indeed. If you said, for instance, that his verse sections indulged in the
kind of license you attribute to his literary "entertainment mode", then it
might be clearer that his audience would have understood this. But how were
interested Normans, a few of them reading but more of them listening to
simultaneous translation from his account by clerical Latinists in their
households, supposed to distinguish his intentions in prose? I'm not sure
how far you would take this - frankly, the nicety of "literary heft =
probable untruth" sounds to me rather uncomfortably like other conceits of
modern academic study, common enough where budding revisionists are looking
for a new angle. But I am probably overstating here on a quick reaction,
without the benefit of to-&-fro discussion, and I don't mean to suggest that
Stewart Baldwin's idea is of that order.
<snip>
Yes, but an observer in Anjou - where the _Planctus_ was probably written -
would have had many metrical alternatives to the gnomic phrase "in orbe
transmarino", if talking about the familiar England rather than somewhere
like the Orkneys that he had perhaps never heard of before; and he would
hardly have left the circumstances of William's birth sounding alien if
aware that his mother was actually a Frankish lady with close relationships
amongst the higher nobility. Medieval poets didn't readily squander
opportunities to expand on their potential audience's field of interest.
I do not suggest that the later account of Rollo's family background has
anything necessarily to do with the Orkneys as a likely staging post on his
travels towards Normandy. I didn't say that his raids were from a base
there. The Orkneys were one of the major centres of Viking power, with a
steady stream of recruits and trading from the Norse homelands and forming a
way station no doubt for more distant journeys. The settlements there are
also linked to forays elsewhere. This doesn't mean that Rollo and his
pirates went directly from there to the Seine, or that rejecting later
genealogies affects the likelihood of his visiting there.
Peter Stewart
Stewart Baldwin
Peter....@crsrehab.gov.au ("Stewart, Peter") wrote:
[snip]
[I changed the name of the thread, because we have wandered quite a
bit from the original topic.]
>This kind of literary analysis applied to Dudo seems to me very uncertain
>indeed. If you said, for instance, that his verse sections indulged in the
>kind of license you attribute to his literary "entertainment mode", then it
>might be clearer that his audience would have understood this. But how were
>interested Normans, a few of them reading but more of them listening to
>simultaneous translation from his account by clerical Latinists in their
>households, supposed to distinguish his intentions in prose? I'm not sure
>how far you would take this - frankly, the nicety of "literary heft =
>probable untruth" sounds to me rather uncomfortably like other conceits of
>modern academic study, common enough where budding revisionists are looking
>for a new angle. But I am probably overstating here on a quick reaction,
>without the benefit of to-&-fro discussion, and I don't mean to suggest that
>Stewart Baldwin's idea is of that order.
I don't see why it is relevant whether or not interested Normans were
able to tell the difference, as they were just an audience being
entertained by a good story. Just as some people are poor liars who
unconsciously give themselves away by the way in which they present
their lies, some writers do the same thing. Whether or not Dudo has
such detectable quirks which will reveal when he was in fiction
writing mode is at least worth pursuing.
The idea of using stylistic clues is hardly new, and has been used in
a number of ways before (such as detecting late interpolations to
earlier works). The possibility that I suggested of using this idea
on Dudo is based on a couple of premises:
1. That the account of Dudo is based at least in part on historical
events, even if it is not always possible to tell the history form the
later inventions (or errors).
2. That there are some common features in Dudo (such as the appearance
of direct quotes of the principle characters in reporting events prior
to living memory, for example) that provide clear INTERNAL evidence
that nonhistorical embellishment is probably taking place, independent
of any evidence from other sources.
It is certainly a reasonable possibility that there is a significant
difference in the reliability between those parts that have clear
internal evidence of embellishment and those that do not. While I
would agree with those who claim that some recent scholars have gone
overboard in their attempts to "rehabilitate" Dudo, I am also uneasy
with the other extreme that would set him aside as essentially
worthless.
>Yes, but an observer in Anjou - where the _Planctus_ was probably written -
>would have had many metrical alternatives to the gnomic phrase "in orbe
>transmarino", if talking about the familiar England rather than somewhere
>like the Orkneys that he had perhaps never heard of before; and he would
>hardly have left the circumstances of William's birth sounding alien if
>aware that his mother was actually a Frankish lady with close relationships
>amongst the higher nobility. Medieval poets didn't readily squander
>opportunities to expand on their potential audience's field of interest.
This is essentially an argument from silence.
>I do not suggest that the later account of Rollo's family background has
>anything necessarily to do with the Orkneys as a likely staging post on his
>travels towards Normandy. I didn't say that his raids were from a base
>there. The Orkneys were one of the major centres of Viking power, with a
>steady stream of recruits and trading from the Norse homelands and forming a
>way station no doubt for more distant journeys. The settlements there are
>also linked to forays elsewhere. This doesn't mean that Rollo and his
>pirates went directly from there to the Seine, or that rejecting later
>genealogies affects the likelihood of his visiting there.
What is the evidence that continental Vikings were likely to have
contact with Orkney during Rollo's time? I gave two clear examples of
Viking contemporaries of Rollo who had clear connections with both
England and the continent (both of which can be backed up by
contemporary evidence, annalistic in one case and numismatic in the
other), but I know of no clearly documented examples of Vikings with
both a continental and Orkney connection.
Outside of England, you could make a better case for Dublin than for
Orkney. It was a major Viking port, and the Vikings suffered a major
defeat there in 902 and were driven out for several years, and some of
them might have decided to seek their fortune in Normandy (although I
can not think of any known Vikings with both an Irish and Norman
connection).
Stewart Baldwin
Stewart, Peter
> -----Original Message-----
> From: sba...@mindspring.com [mailto:sba...@mindspring.com]
> Sent: Monday, 20 January 2003 18:11
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Dudo, Rollo, etc. (was: Origins of the Capetians, ...)
>
>
<snip>
> I don't see why it is relevant whether or not interested Normans were
> able to tell the difference, as they were just an audience being
> entertained by a good story.
Rather _the_ principle audience: I don't suppose that Dudo was set to his
task of puffing the Norman ruling family just for the edification of his
patron, or posterity, or his fellow clerics, or any other group as a higher
priority than his duke's followers & vassals - or that he would have adopted
elements of skaldic style for anyone else's entertainment.
> Just as some people are poor liars who
> unconsciously give themselves away by the way in which they present
> their lies, some writers do the same thing. Whether or not Dudo has
> such detectable quirks which will reveal when he was in fiction
> writing mode is at least worth pursuing.
>
> The idea of using stylistic clues is hardly new, and has been used in
> a number of ways before (such as detecting late interpolations to
> earlier works).
For the general drift of his storytelling, as the main or only source for
much of the matter, it may certainly be worth pursuing - but as an indicator
of genealogical details, I very much doubt that such a blunt instrument can
ever be honed into a useful tool.
<snip>
>
> > Yes, but an observer in Anjou - where the _Planctus_ was
> > probably written - would have had many metrical alternatives
> > to the gnomic phrase "in orbe transmarino", if talking about
> > the familiar England rather than somewhere like the Orkneys
> > that he had perhaps never heard of before; and he would
> > hardly have left the circumstances of William's birth
> > sounding alien if aware that his mother was actually a
> > Frankish lady with close relationships amongst the higher
> > nobility. Medieval poets didn't readily squander
> > opportunities to expand on their potential audience's field
> > of interest.
>
> This is essentially an argument from silence.
No, it's not the nub of the matter at all but merely an observation in
support of my actual argument: that what was said in the _Planctus_ appears
to be inconsistent with Dudo's version of William's mother. This includes a
mysterious phrase, as I pointed out - your own argument is just as close to
one from silence, based on Dudo's comparative taciturnity about Poppa as
opposed to Gisela. So one source is gnomic, the other laconic, on the point
at issue; neither is quite silent, but anyway arguments on that basis can
vary in strength & are not automatically inadmissable.
<snip>
> What is the evidence that continental Vikings were likely to have
> contact with Orkney during Rollo's time?
I have never come across a suggestion that failing specific evidence we
should presume the Norse communities of the Orkneys were somehow isolated
from their homeland. The likelihood of ongoing contact is established by
what we are told about Rollo's counterpart adventurers: the _Orkneyinga Saga
_ of ca 1200 was hardly flouting older tradition when it says that men
sailed between the Orkneys and Hebrides for play, and this doesn't imply to
me that these island groups were the bounds of their routine travels. There
are (later as written) accounts that Rognvaldr of More was given the Orkneys
in compensation for the loss of his son, and that the gift was later
confirmed from the homeland. There are artifacts - but not, unsurprisingly,
contemporary written records - to verify frequent Norse contact with their
countrymen in the Orkneys during Rollo's time. King Harald is supposed to
have led a punitive expedition there in the time of Torf-Einar (ca 895). In
the 11th century, Cnut is supposed to have sent Earl Hakon into exile there,
and at least one naval campaign against England was concerted between
Norway, Ireland and the Orkneys (_Annals of Tigernach_). For further
references on this subject see the 11th Viking Congress papers, _The Viking
Age in Caithness, Orkney and the North Atlantic_, edited by Colleen Batey &
others (Edinburgh, 1993) and _Scandinavian Scotland_ by Barbara Crawford
(Leicester, 1987).
> I gave two clear examples of
> Viking contemporaries of Rollo who had clear connections with both
> England and the continent (both of which can be backed up by
> contemporary evidence, annalistic in one case and numismatic in the
> other), but I know of no clearly documented examples of Vikings with
> both a continental and Orkney connection.
>
> Outside of England, you could make a better case for Dublin than for
> Orkney. It was a major Viking port, and the Vikings suffered a major
> defeat there in 902 and were driven out for several years, and some of
> them might have decided to seek their fortune in Normandy (although I
> can not think of any known Vikings with both an Irish and Norman
> connection).
But I am not especially making a case purely for the Orkneys - the
landowning, priestly class of these islands, and the Hebrides & Shetlands,
were known to the Irish as "pobba" and to the Norsemen as "papar". They and
their women were no doubt as widely scattered as other inhabitants by the
Viking invaders. Rollo might have found a wife from this background anywhere
"in orbe transmarino", including Dublin if you like, or even England for
that matter, who could have been transmuted into a remembered "Poppa" after
80 years or so.
The only available corrective to Dudo, if he was characteristically
misleading on these facts, is the poet of the _Planctus_, and he doesn't
appear to me to have had in mind a noblewoman from a familiar & boast-worthy
origin, in Brittany, Senlis, Rouen or Bayeux, whatever she was called. Add
that to the outlandish and evidently unexampled name that Dudo gave the
lady. We still can't conclude much, but the speculations of Dr Keats-Rohan &
others about Poppa's genealogy look fairly empty to me.
Peter Stewart
Stewart Baldwin
Peter....@crsrehab.gov.au ("Stewart, Peter") wrote:
[much snipping]
>No, it's not the nub of the matter at all but merely an observation in
>support of my actual argument: that what was said in the _Planctus_ appears
>to be inconsistent with Dudo's version of William's mother. This includes a
>mysterious phrase, as I pointed out - your own argument is just as close to
>one from silence, based on Dudo's comparative taciturnity about Poppa as
>opposed to Gisela. So one source is gnomic, the other laconic, on the point
>at issue; neither is quite silent, but anyway arguments on that basis can
>vary in strength & are not automatically inadmissable.
I don't see how the Planctus statement "appears to be inconsistent"
with Dudo's version of William's mother. Dudo has Rollo going to
England not long after after his statement about Rollo's marriage to
"Poppa", making it perfectly consistent with Dudo's story that William
was born overseas as the Plactus says.
>I have never come across a suggestion that failing specific evidence we
>should presume the Norse communities of the Orkneys were somehow isolated
>from their homeland. The likelihood of ongoing contact is established by
>what we are told about Rollo's counterpart adventurers: the _Orkneyinga Saga
>_ of ca 1200 was hardly flouting older tradition when it says that men
>sailed between the Orkneys and Hebrides for play, and this doesn't imply to
>me that these island groups were the bounds of their routine travels. There
>are (later as written) accounts that Rognvaldr of More was given the Orkneys
>in compensation for the loss of his son, and that the gift was later
>confirmed from the homeland. There are artifacts - but not, unsurprisingly,
>contemporary written records - to verify frequent Norse contact with their
>countrymen in the Orkneys during Rollo's time. King Harald is supposed to
>have led a punitive expedition there in the time of Torf-Einar (ca 895). In
>the 11th century, Cnut is supposed to have sent Earl Hakon into exile there,
>and at least one naval campaign against England was concerted between
>Norway, Ireland and the Orkneys (_Annals of Tigernach_). For further
>references on this subject see the 11th Viking Congress papers, _The Viking
>Age in Caithness, Orkney and the North Atlantic_, edited by Colleen Batey &
>others (Edinburgh, 1993) and _Scandinavian Scotland_ by Barbara Crawford
>(Leicester, 1987).
I'm not questioning the fact that many Viking adventurers found their
way to the Orkneys. However, such a general observation in no way
constitutes eveidence that a specific Viking adventurer (in this case
Rollo) ever went to the Orkneys. As for your statement about Harald
and Torf-Einar, the sources for those statements would likely be
significantly less reliable than Dudo, and a floruit of ca. 895 for
Torf-Einar (or for an alleged raid reported in sources three centuries
later) definately looks like false precision to me, when the earliest
contemporary record of a jarl of Orkney that I am aware of is at the
Battle of Clontarf in 1014.
>But I am not especially making a case purely for the Orkneys - the
>landowning, priestly class of these islands, and the Hebrides & Shetlands,
>were known to the Irish as "pobba" and to the Norsemen as "papar". They and
>their women were no doubt as widely scattered as other inhabitants by the
>Viking invaders. Rollo might have found a wife from this background anywhere
>"in orbe transmarino", including Dublin if you like, or even England for
>that matter, who could have been transmuted into a remembered "Poppa" after
>80 years or so.
But where is there any evidence of association of Rollo with Ireland?
Yor argument has the appearance of circularity. Without evidence that
Rollo was associated with some place (Orkney or otherwise) where the
term "pobba/papar" was in use, your attempt to derive "Poppa" from
"pobba/papar" has no basis, and yet this similarity seems to be your
motivation for suggesting a connection between Rollo and the Orkneys.
In fact, Dudo never once mentions Rollo in connection with Ireland,
and never mentions the Orkneys at all. That does not prove that Rollo
never went there, but it does seem to make England the more likely
main location for Rollo's overseas activities (especially since the
Viking Hasting, to whom Dudo pays much attention, does have a clearly
documented connection with English raids).
Also, what is the evidence for use of the term "pobba/papar" by Irish
Vikings in general (as opposed to just the Orkneys)?
>The only available corrective to Dudo, if he was characteristically
>misleading on these facts, is the poet of the _Planctus_, and he doesn't
>appear to me to have had in mind a noblewoman from a familiar & boast-worthy
>origin, in Brittany, Senlis, Rouen or Bayeux, whatever she was called. Add
>that to the outlandish and evidently unexampled name that Dudo gave the
>lady.
As I said before, I remain skeptical about the argument from silence
that the poet (who was also vague about other things) would have given
the origin of William's mother if she was from Brittany, etc.
"Evidently unexampled" seems to be correct, but that is not the same
as "outlandish". What arguements do you have for that specific claim?
(Actually, the name "Sprota" is the one that raises a "red flag" in my
mind.)
>... We still can't conclude much, but the speculations of Dr Keats-Rohan &
>others about Poppa's genealogy look fairly empty to me.
Despite our disagreements on this subject, I largely concur with that
statement.
Stewart Baldwin
Stewart, Peter
> From: sba...@mindspring.com [mailto:sba...@mindspring.com]
> Sent: Monday, 27 January 2003 5:54
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: Dudo, Rollo, etc. (was: Origins of the Capetians, ...)
>
<snip>
>
> statement.
You seem to be under the misapprehension that I am trying to prove something
about the origin of "Poppa" and/or the whereabouts of Rollo.
I am not.
My point was merely that doubt exists about _any and all_ evidence from Dudo
(including what you now adduce in a debate that is spiralling perilously
inwards). Given this, I think it is incumbent on any scholar who wants to
make out an elaborate genealogy for "Poppa of Bayeux" to address the
question of whether or not a person so named was likely even to have existed
before Dudo.
I have pointed out the absence of any "Poppa" in the records - amongst the
Popponids or any other Frankish family - and of, for comparison, any "Suppa"
amongst the Supponids, or other similarly freakish feminisations (i.e.
singular instances) of such masculine whole names (including Biblical ones -
if not "Samsona", why not an early medieval "Davida" or even "Jacoba"?) in
the contemporary nobility. Christian Settipani has indicated that he may
have something to say about this when he can find the time.
Meanwhile I am not trying to establish that Rollo's wife was definitely from
the Orkneys, or indeed that he ever necessarily went there, nor am I
engaging in theorisation about the chronology of Norse rule in the islands
that - unlike England, I suggest - might be described by a poet in Anjou,
who didn't perhaps know details but wished to be understood, as "the world
overseas".
Peter Stewart