Who was Father of Sir Alexander Percy (f. of Eleanor m. John Clervaux)?

[Greg Vaut]

Genealogics shows (no dates or sources):
1 Sir Alexander Percy
2 Eleanor Percy m. John Clerevaulx, of Croft
No parents are shown for Alexander. (https://www.genealogics.org/descendtext.php?personID=I00705407&tree=LEO&generations=)

I have reference to a "Pedigree of the Family of Percy, possessors of the manor of Foston in early Time; from a Female of which Family the Faunts (subsequent possessors of Foston) descended," which apparently shows this Alexander as a son of Henry Percy, 1st Earl of Northumberland (1321-1368), and Mary of Lancaster. The pedigree is from John Nichols, "The History and Antiquities of the County of Leicester", 1807, Vol. III, Part 1, p. 174. I do not have access to the pedigree.

Can anyone help me confirm/identify the parents of Alexander? Is Nichols a credible source? Are there other sources for this link?

All help appreciated,
Greg

[David Topping]

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=pst.000032377095&view=1up&seq=174

[David Topping]

Sorry - right book wrong page?

[Greg Vaut]

Thank you, David, for the Hathi Trust lInk. I have "toured" the book and while I can find reference to Foston, I can find no Percy family pedigree. Too bad.
Greg

[Greg Vaut]

I found it. It is on p. 174 of vol. IV (not vol. III), Part 1. The chart does show Alexander, father of Eleanor, as one of three children of "Henry lord Percy = Maria, daughter of Henry earl of Lancaster". the other two children shown are Henry, Earl of Northumberland and Thomas, Earl of Worcester.

I also just found Richardson's [2013] Royal Ancestry (Vol. IV, Percy 10, pp. 351-353 which shows the children Henry and Thomas, but does now show Alexander.

So I'm wondering if the Nichols pedigree has since been disproven.

Greg

Greg

[John Higgins]

Perhaps Sir Alexander Percy of Ormesby and Sneaton?
https://books.google.com/books?id=qPsnAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA426#v=onepage&q&f=false

The data in Genealogics for Sir Alexander Percy and his daughter Eleanor/Elinor is from p. 412 of Joseph Foster's edition of the 1584-5 and 1612 visitations of Yorkshire, in a pedigree of Clervaux of Croft.
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/62955?availability=Family%20History%20Library

[Vance Mead]

This is from Patent Rolls, 1 EDWARD III.—PART III. page 223 (1328)
http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/e3v1/body/Edward3vol1page0223.pdf


Jan 21. York. Commission of oyer and terminer to Richard de Aldeburgh, Robert de Scorburgh, Geoffrey de Edenham and John de Shirburn, on complaint by Thomas de Lounesburgh of Whiteby that Alexander de Percy of Sneton, Juliana, his wife, John, his son, and William brother of the said John, Robert son of Arnald de Percy of Kildale, Richard de Lich of Whiteby and Margaret, his wife, Thomas le Maresehal of Whiteby, and others, assaulted him at Witeby, co. York.

[Vance Mead]

To give an idea of the timeframe, this is a Common Pleas case from Trinity term 1377.

Yorks. John Clervaux of Croft versus William Grave. Trespass: breach of close at Walmyre.

http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/E3/CP40no466/aCP40no466fronts/IMG_0432.htm

[Greg Vaut]

Vance/John,

Thank you for these links. It seems that there may have been two Alexanders (one of Foston - per Nichols, and a second of Sneaton). I haven't a clue as to which was the father of Eleanor.

Question: The mention in the 1612 Visitations of Yorkshire cited by John Higgins mentions, "Ellinor, dau. of Sir Alexander Percy, knight - Quarterly. 1 and 4. Gules, 3 fishes hauriant argent. 2 and 3. Or, a lion rampant azure." Is there anyone sufficiently literate in heraldry to be able to determine if these Arms identify which Percy family this Alexander belonged to?

Greg

[taf]

On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 6:41:11 AM UTC-7, Greg Vaut wrote:

> Question: The mention in the 1612 Visitations
> of Yorkshire cited by John Higgins mentions,
> "Ellinor, dau. of Sir Alexander Percy, knight
> - Quarterly. 1 and 4. Gules, 3 fishes hauriant
> argent. 2 and 3. Or, a lion rampant azure." Is
> there anyone sufficiently literate in heraldry
> to be able to determine if these Arms identify
> which Percy family this Alexander belonged to?

The lion coat in quadrants 2 & 3 is the coat of the Percy main line. The fish coat in quadrants 1 & 4 appears to be representing Lucy - i.e. this is a reflection of the marriage of Henry Percy, Hotspur's father, to Maud Lucy, sister of Lord Lucy, though the priority given Lucy over Percy is a bit odd, and this marriage is said to have been childless. Bear in mind that these arms were probably attached by a later illustrator, not part of the original visitation record, so they may be meaningless.

taf

[taf]

As a follow up, Yorkshire historians assign Alexander Percy of Sneaton to the Percys of Kildale. In turn, I find some websites of no particula reliability attributing to the Kildale line the older Percy lozengy coat rather than the lion coat in the visitation. As I said, though, one should not put much faith in any of this heraldry.

taf

[taf]

On Tuesday, October 27, 2020 at 5:47:39 PM UTC-7, John Higgins wrote:

> The data in Genealogics for Sir Alexander Percy and his daughter
> Eleanor/Elinor is from p. 412 of Joseph Foster's edition of the
> 1584-5 and 1612 visitations of Yorkshire, in a pedigree of Clervaux
> of Croft.

It also appears in the published edition of Flowers' 1563-4 visitation in the Clervaux pedigree.
https://books.google.com/books?id=pjMEAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA58

It adds nothing, though.

taf

[taf]

On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 7:25:16 AM UTC-7, taf wrote:

> The lion coat in quadrants 2 & 3 is the coat of
> the Percy main line. The fish coat in quadrants
> 1 & 4 appears to be representing Lucy

I should have noted that Lucy is not the only possibility for this coat - Papworth also names Waye and an Irish (O')Cahane family bearing gu, 3 fish hauriant arg.

taf

[taf]

On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 6:41:11 AM UTC-7, Greg Vaut wrote:

> Question: The mention in the 1612 Visitations of Yorkshire
> cited by John Higgins mentions, "Ellinor, dau. of Sir
> Alexander Percy, knight - Quarterly. 1 and 4. Gules, 3
> fishes hauriant argent. 2 and 3. Or, a lion rampant
> azure." Is there anyone sufficiently literate in heraldry
> to be able to determine if these Arms identify which Percy
> family this Alexander belonged to?

W. Hylton Longstaffe, published an annotated pedigree entitled The House of Clervaux: Its descents and alliances, (Newcastle upon Tyne, 1852), that includes this marriage.

A poor-quality scan can be found here:
https://books.google.com/books?id=si0AAAAAQAAJ&pg=PP17

It reports the following:
"John Clervaux m. Eleanor, dr. of sir Alexander Percy (Glover) for whom the impalement with Clervaux, Or, 5 lozenges conjoined in a fess sable, in a window in the old Clervaux mansion at Croft in 1666 was intended. In 1564 (?) John Clervaux of Croft granted to William de Newport, parson of Spofford, and Henry de Percy, valet, a (unreadable) of land in (uncertain) juxta (uncertain), dated at Spofford."

The important thing here is that it gives Alexander a completely different coat than the published visitation.

Papworth attributes these arms to "Percehay". The original Percy arms were a similar lozengy coat, but with gold on blue rather than this black on gold.

taf

[Greg Vaut]

Todd,

Thanks for these last contributions.

If I understand your serial additions and comments , the arms cited in the 1612 Visitations do not help in understanding whether this Alexander (whose dau. m. John Clervaux), was the son of Henry Percy, Earl of Northumberland and Mary of Lancaster, as Nichols showed in his pedigree. Do you have any other suggestions on researching Alexander's father?

Greg

[taf]

On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 1:20:47 PM UTC-7, Greg Vaut wrote:

> If I understand your serial additions and comments , the arms cited
> in the 1612 Visitations do not help in understanding whether this
> Alexander (whose dau. m. John Clervaux), was the son of Henry Percy,
> Earl of Northumberland and Mary of Lancaster, as Nichols showed in
> his pedigree.

Just to be clear, I will restate it.

The problem with the arms provided by the published visitation is that they are in all likelihood a non-contemporary addition to the manuscript, and even if they were put there at the time it was compiled, there is no reason to think they are an authentic representation of the arms of Alexander, and a good reason to think they aren't - they appear to represent Percy and Lucy, a marriage that produced no children. As such, I think it would be a fool's errand to try to deduce a pedigree from this coat.

The Longstaffe coat is also problematic, in that he appears to be dating it to a heraldic display produced in the 17th century, too late to assume accuracy, and while the design matches the early Percy coat, the colours are different, which could represent a branch that had differenced the ancestral coat to distinguish their branch, or it could just be an error. I note that in another book Longstaffe is much more circumspect, saying these arms _probably_ intended to represent the Percy marriage, but that later illustrated renderings of it used the colours of the ancestral Percys and not the unique colourings of this coat. It is just all too wonky to take at face value, and unless you can find someone bearing the altered-colour coat independent of the Clervaux link, then it doesn't help anyhow.

> Do you have any other suggestions on researching Alexander's father?

Time machine?

Seriously, though, all you can do is dig through contemporary records and hope you turn up one that allows the Alexander associated with the Clervaux to be better identified, either by the naming of a relationship or an associated place name. I did a pretty thorough troll through Google Books and didn't turn up anything particularly useful, other than the Longstaffe sources.

taf

[Peter Howarth]

To add a little to the Percy/Lucy coat of arms: Maud de Lucy, wife of Henry Percy 1st earl of Northumberland (d.1408), settled all her large estates on the Percy family by the tenure of quartering the Lucy arms with theirs. The result is that Henry Hotspur used the quartered arms (with a label)[1] as did the subsequent Percy earls of Northumberland.

The other peculiarity of the Percy arms is that much earlier, around 1295, Henry 1st Lord Percy (d.1314) changed his arms from ‘Azure, a fess of lozenges or’ to ‘Or, a lion rampant azure’, arms that until 1293 had been borne by the Reviers earls of Devon. There is no genealogical explanation for this. It is one of several cases at the end of the thirteenth century where someone changed their arms to one with a lion. Both of Henry’s sons bore the lion, William the younger son with a red border.

Re the arms ‘Or, a fess of lozenges sable’:
Please do not use Papworth, who was forced faute de mieux to use the unsourced General Armory of Burke(!), especially since the Dictionary of British Arms is now available on line.
According to the DBA, these arms were used by
Robert de Percy, in St George’s Roll (c.1285) E 114, Charles’s Roll (c.1285) F 189
William de Percy, in Collins’ Roll (c.1296) Q 433
John de Percy (or Percehay) of Levington, in Cooke’s Ordinary (c.1340) CKO 627, William Jenyns’ Ordinary (c.1360-80) WJ 1095
Arnald de Percy Thomas Jenyns’ Book (c.1350-1410) TJ 640
These names and (very approximate) dates may possibly help establish which family was involved, at least with the church window.

Peter Howarth

[1] seals: 1392/3, 1392-5, C.H. Hunter-Blair, ‘Seals of Northumberland and Durham’, Archaeologia Aeliana, 3rd series, xxi. (1924) p 53, nos. 631-632; William Jenyns’ Ordinary (c.1360-80) WJ 94, Willement’s Roll (c.1395) S 81

[taf]

On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 2:42:11 AM UTC-7, Peter Howarth wrote:
> To add a little to the Percy/Lucy coat of arms: Maud de Lucy, wife of
> Henry Percy 1st earl of Northumberland (d.1408), settled all her large
> estates on the Percy family by the tenure of quartering the Lucy arms
> with theirs. The result is that Henry Hotspur used the quartered arms
> (with a label)[1] as did the subsequent Percy earls of Northumberland.

Did they put the Lucy coat at 1 & 4, as it appears in the visitation?

taf

[Peter Howarth]

No, the Northumberland version has Percy 1 and 4, and Lucy 2 and 3.

Peter Howarth

[taf]

On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 2:42:11 AM UTC-7, Peter Howarth wrote:

> According to the DBA, these arms were used by

. . .

> Arnald de Percy Thomas Jenyns’ Book (c.1350-1410) TJ 640

I am not finding this man, but there is one of this name fl. 1285-1308 who was holding Kildale.

Of particular note, Robert, son of Arnald de Percy of Kildale and Alexander de Percy of Sneton, his wife Juliana and sons John and William were listed among the parties involved in an assault accusation in 1328 at Whitby, York. (Patent Rolls, Edw III, vol. 1, p. 223)

taf

[taf]

On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 6:34:05 PM UTC-7, taf wrote:

Here is a pedigree of Percy of Kildale on Ord's The History and Antiquities of Cleveland:

https://books.google.com/books?id=qPsnAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA426

More detail on this Alexander can be found in the published edition of the Cartulary of Whitby Abbey, notably here:
https://books.google.com/books?id=R_FaAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA706

taf

[Greg Vaut]

If I read these correctly, the Alexander de Percy of Seaton did not have a dau. Eleanor who m. John Clervaux. That leaves open the possibility that the father of Eleanor was Alexander of Fenton, per the Nichols pedigree (independent of heraldry).

Greg

[John Higgins]

Yes, this is the pedigree that I posted here three days ago in this thread.

I don't think the absence of a daughter Eleanor for Alexander in this pedigree necessarily rules out her existence. The pedigree is focused on the male-line descents of the Percy branches of Kildale and Ormesby. The only daughter shown is the eventual heir of the Ormesby branch.

I think Nichols says that Alexander Percy was of Foston, not Fenton.

AFAIK the exact connection of the Percy line of Kildale and Ormesby to the main Percy line who became Earls of Northumberland is not well established. But I think Nichols' identification of Sir Alexander Percy as a younger brother of the prominent Henry Percy, 1st Earl of Northumberland (who was himself of recent royal descent via his mother) is very unlikely - especially since no other pedigree of the Percy family that I'm aware of places him here. I think this is a bit of "creative genealogy" on the part of Nichols. And, as you pointed out earlier, Sir Alexander does not appear in this place in the Richardson books.

[taf]

On Friday, October 30, 2020 at 10:06:59 AM UTC-7, Greg Vaut wrote:
> If I read these correctly, the Alexander de Percy of
> Seaton did not have a dau. Eleanor who m. John Clervaux.
> That leaves open the possibility that the father of
> Eleanor was Alexander of Fenton, per the Nichols pedigree
> (independent of heraldry).

Not really. Just because They don't list a daughter doesn't mean he didn't have one.

taf

[taf]

On Friday, October 30, 2020 at 10:56:58 AM UTC-7, John Higgins wrote:
> Yes, this is the pedigree that I posted here three
> days ago in this thread.

Sorry - the link didn't work the other day (I am having sporadic connectivity issues) and I didn't recognize it as the same.

> I don't think the absence of a daughter Eleanor for
> Alexander in this pedigree necessarily rules out her
> existence. The pedigree is focused on the male-line
> descents of the Percy branches of Kildale and Ormesby.
> The only daughter shown is the eventual heir of the
> Ormesby branch.

I agree with regard to the Antiquities of Cleveland pedigree. It doesn't even show both sons of Alexander. I note too that the two pedigrees reconstruct the last generation differently, one showing the eventual heiress as daughter of William, the other as daughter of John.

The absence of a daughter in the Whitby Abbey pedigree is not so inheritance-focused, and mention of Margaret, sister of Alexander, may simply reflect that the author was aware of her, rather than the account representing an attempt at completeness.

taf

[Greg Vaut]

Aplogies. Yes, Nichols mentions Alexander of Foston, not Fenton.

[Greg Vaut]

The link to the Nichols pedigree is https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=pst.000032377101&view=1up&seq=248 (Vol IV, Part 1, p. 174)

[taf]

Also the Clervaux/Newport/Percy charter that was described by Longstaffe but hard to read the retails of in the bad available scan can be seen in The Percy Chartulary, p. 225:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uva.x001200227&view=1up&seq=245

Some chronology on the Smeaton/Ormsby line:

Alexander de Percy of Sneaton came of age in 1302.

An indult was issued for "William Percy, son of Alexander de Percy, donsel", to choose his own confessor in 1344.

(from Cal.Papal.Reg., 3:178)

taf

[Jinny Wallerstedt/Girl 57]

On Tuesday, October 27, 2020 at 9:58:34 AM UTC-4, Greg Vaut wrote:
> Genealogics shows (no dates or sources):
> 1 Sir Alexander Percy
> 2 Eleanor Percy m. John Clerevaulx, of Croft
> No parents are shown for Alexander. (https://www.genealogics.org/descendtext.php?personID=I00705407&tree=LEO&generations=)
>
> I have reference to a "Pedigree of the Family of Percy, possessors of the manor of Foston in early Time; from a Female of which Family the Faunts (subsequent possessors of Foston) descended," which apparently shows this Alexander as a son of Henry Percy, 1st Earl of Northumberland (1321-1368), and Mary of Lancaster. The pedigree is from John Nichols, "The History and Antiquities of the County of Leicester", 1807, Vol. III, Part 1, p. 174. I do not have access to the pedigree.
>
> Can anyone help me confirm/identify the parents of Alexander? Is Nichols a credible source? Are there other sources for this link?
>
> All help appreciated,
> Greg

Greg, if you're still around and don't yet have an answer to your question, a 2008 post (with sources) by John Watson answers your question about Alexander Percy. See here:

https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/xo38be-2NAklink

Extract:

"Sir Alexander de Percy, of Ormesby and Sneaton, the son and heir of
William de Percy of Kildale and Joan Neville. He was said to be 14
years old in July 1295 at the inquisition post mortem of his father
[10].

By his wife Juliana he was the father of Alexander, William, John,
Margaret and Eleanor.

Margaret de Percy married Sir John Mowbray of Kirklington, ancestor of
Ingleby and Gascoigne

Eleanor de Percy married Sir John Clervaux of Croft."