Isabel, wife of Neil of Carrick: a conjecture
John P. Ravilious
Hello All,
The career of Neil, Earl of Carrick (d. 1256) is
poorly known, and that of his wife is even less so.
Widely identified as Margaret Stewart [1], she has been
identified as Isabel in what little evidence there is:
sadly, without notice of her parentage [2].
Based on a group of dispensations, I have conjectured
that Isabel was in fact a younger daughter of William
Comyn by his 2nd wife Marjory, Countess of Buchan. The
relationships involve two sets of marriages: those of
Joanna de Menteith (countess of Stathearn by her first
husband, Earl Malise) and her subsequent husbands, John
Campbell, Sir Maurice Murray, and William, Earl of
Sutherland; and the two marriages of the aforesaid
William, Earl of Sutherland with (1) Margaret, younger
daughter of Robert _the_ Bruce, King of Scots by his 2nd
wife Elizabeth de Burgh, and (2) Joan, as noted above.
The mandate for dispensation of the marriage of
William, earl of Sutherland and Joan de Menteith, dated
at Avignon, 5 Id. Nov. [9 Nov.] 1347 states:
' To the bishop of Caithness. Mandate to dispense
William, earl of Sothyrland, and Joan, countess of
Strathern, who intermarried in ignorance of the
impediment by reason of the fourth degree of affinity
between them, Joan having first married John, earl of
Athol, and on his death Maurice de Moravia, earl [of
Strathern], on whose death she was married to
William, these three successive husbands being
related to one another in the fourth degree of
kindred. They remain in the said marriage, and
their past and future offspring is declared
legitimate. '[3]
The foregoing agrees with the dispensation for Joan's
marriage to Maurice de Moravia in 1339, also for a
relationship in the 4th degree of affinity [4]. Added to
this, we have the dispensation for the first marriage of
William, Earl of Sutherland, to Margaret de Bruce, dated
at Avignon, Kal. Dec. [1 Dec] 1342:
' To the bishop of Caithness. Mandate to grant a
dispensation to William, earl of Sothirlande, and
Margaret, sister of David, king of Scots, to
intermarry, notwithstanding that they are related
in the fourth degree of kindred.
[Theiner, 278.] ' [5]
While the relationship of Sir Maurice de Moravia (or
Murray) has not yet been resolved, these relationships
are evidently from common descent from William Comyn and
Marjory of Buchan as shown in the following chart:
[NOTE: the following is conjectural, and
intended for discussion purposes]
William Comyn = 2) Marjory
E of Buchan I C of Buchan
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _I_________________________________
I I I I I I
Isabel = Neil Alexander Comyn Elizabeth <sibs>
I E of E of Buchan = William
I Carrick d. 1290 E of Mar
_____I________ __I___ I
I I I I I I I I I
Marjory <sibs> Donald
C of Carrick E of Mar
= Robert de Brus d. ca. 1297
d. 1304 I
__I_______________ _____________I____
I I I I I I
Mary Robert <sibs> Marjory
= Sir Neil _the_ Bruce = Kenneth
Campbell K of Scots E of
d. 1316 = 2) Elizabeth Sutherland
I de Burgh ________I
I I___________________ I _______
I____ I I
I I <II>
1) John = Joanna = 2) Maurice = 3) William = Margaret
Campbell Murray E of Bruce
E of E of Sutherland
Athol Strathearn d. 1371
k. 1333 k. 1346
The foregoing is valid only under certain assumptions.
For one, the previous position that Malise, Earl of
Strathearn (1st husband of Joan de Menteith) was the son
of Margaret Comyn (a daughter of Alexander Comyn, Earl of
Buchan) would be in error, otherwise his exclusion from
the dispensed relationships would be inexplicable. He
was then, it seems, the son of the first wife (Emma)
whose parentage is unknown. There are also other
relationships which, under this reconstruction, would
either (A) have required dispensations which are not
known to exist, or (B) would now require reevaluation
[e.g., the dispensation for Edward Bruce and Isabel of
Ross].
I discussed the foregoing in some detail with Andrew
B. W. MacEwen. He stated he had entertained the
possibility of this parentage for Isabel some time ago,
but is currently working under another theory as to her
parentage.
Should anyone have additional documentation that
bears on these matters, or have relevant comment or
criticism, that would be welcome.
Cheers,
John *
NOTES
[1] ' Margaret [dau. of Alexander, Steward of Scotland],
who is said to have been married to Nigel or Neil of
Galloway, Earl of Carrick ' [SP I:12 ]. The same
identification is given in SP II:426 in the
article on the Earls of Carrick, citing Duncan
Stewart's History of the Stewarts, p. 49.
[2] With reference to Saddell priory, Cosmo Innes wrote,
' About the same period [ca. 1257], Nigel and Isobel,
Earl and Countess of Carrik, granted to the monks [of
Saddell] the two pennylands of Kildonune and
Creisboig in that earldom.' [Origines Parochiales
Scotiae II(1):23, cites Reg. Mag. Sig., lib. xiv.
no. 806].
[3] W. H. Bliss and C. Johnson, eds., Calendar of
Entries in the Papal Registers relating to Great
Britain and Ireland: Papal Letters, Vol. III,
A.D. 1342-1362 (London: printed for Her Majesty's
Stationery Office by Eyre and Spottiswoode, 1897),
p. 264.
[4] Dispensation granted at Avignon, 5 Id. July
[11 July] 1339:
' To the bishop of Dunblane. Mandate to grant a
dispensation to Maurice de Moravia, lord of
Brunsergarthen, and Jean, countess of S[t]arthen,
of his diocese, to intermarry; notwithstanding that
John, earl of Athol, Jean's first husband, was
related to Maurice in the third degree of kindred.
[Theiner, 275]' [Bliss, Cal. Entries in the
Papal Registers: Papal Letters II:546]
[5] Bliss, Cal. Entries in the Papal Registers: Papal
Letters III:68. See also SP VIII:327, which cites
'Additional MSS. British Museum, 15,371, f. 125.'
* John P. Ravilious
WJhonson
As has been previously stated here, DNB reports that under the accounts of the Malise Earls of Strathern
'In 1310-12 Earl Malise, his wife, Lady Agnes, and his son Malise were in the English pay' [DNB LV:36, cites Bain, Cal. Docs. Scotland II, nos. 192, 208, 299]
I wonder if this source can be found and quoted exactly. It would be quite interesting were we to *now* propose that Malise the husband of Emma (or Egidia) is *not* this Malise in the English pay in 1310-2, but rather it was his son, also Malise (who himself had an unknown first wife but a father himself by at least 1313) and HIS son also Malise who were these people.
That is, that Agnes is not the wife of his father, but is, rather, his own unknown wife, mother of his heir. Which would additionally either mean that Malise, the father, was dead by 1312, OR that Malise, in the Bain account is *not there* called Earl at all.
Will Johnson
Jwc...@aol.com
Interesting Conjection about Neil, Earl of
Carrick`s marrying Isabel who might have been a daughter of William Comyn, 5th
Earl of Buchan. Certainly They were all about cementing political ties. So,
let`s see Elizabeth, Countess of Mar was by your conjecture the sister of Isabel,
Countess of Carrick
Donald I, Earl of Mar was own cousin to Margaret , Countess of
Carrick who married 2nd Robert Brus
Gratney /Gartnait of Mar and Isabel of Mar were 2nd cousins to
Christian Brus and Robert Brus which would mean dispensations of 3rd and 3rd.
That all seems good , but as I understand it Robert Brus (conjectured
to be his Great Grandson) attacked the Abbey of Deer, sacred to William`s
memory. not exactly filial devotion and also Brus didn`t mention the well known
claim of Donald Bane, King of Scots as belonging to himself as well as Red
John Comyn. It would seem a strange omission on his part.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
John P. Ravilious
The Strathearn pedigree is one of several ongoing projects, and
ever subject to reexamination. The volume of Bain's Calendar of
Documents relating to Scotland should be accessible, so the exact
wording (or Bain's rendering, anyway) can be obtained.
As soon as I can accomplish this, I will advise.
Cheers,
John
John P. Ravilious
Dear James,
Thanks for your post of the other day. My comments/observations
are interspersed below.
you wrote:
Dear John Ravilious,
Interesting Conjection about Neil, Earl
of
Carrick`s marrying Isabel who might have been a daughter of William
Comyn, 5th
Earl of Buchan. Certainly They were all about cementing political
ties. So,
let`s see Elizabeth, Countess of Mar was by your conjecture the sister
of Isabel,
Countess of Carrick
Donald I, Earl of Mar was own cousin to Margaret ,
Countess of
Carrick who married 2nd Robert Brus
Gratney /Gartnait of Mar and Isabel of Mar were 2nd cousins
to
Christian Brus and Robert Brus which would mean dispensations of 3rd
and 3rd.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
These are two of the relationships that would have
required dispensations under my reconstruction, as the
Bruce-Mar marriages would each have been 3rd and 3rd degree
of consanguinity (2nd cousins) as you state. The absence
of evidence of such dispensations (or supplications for
same) is not atypical, although also not helpful in
attempting to validate the conjecture. I would note that
(as mentioned before) Andrew MacEwen is working on a
different hypothesis: interestingly, if he is correct,
there would also be 3rd and 3rd degree relationships for
which there is likewise no dispensation in the known
record.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
That all seems good , but as I understand it Robert Brus
(conjectured
to be his Great Grandson) attacked the Abbey of Deer, sacred to
William`s
memory. not exactly filial devotion and also Brus didn`t mention the
well known
claim of Donald Bane, King of Scots as belonging to himself as well
as Red
John Comyn. It would seem a strange omission on his part.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
While this alleged Comyn ancestry would give King Robert
_the_ Bruce the descent from Donald Bane as you state,
remember that he was not the claimant in 1292. That was
his grandfather Sir Robert de Brus, Lord of Annandale, who
had no such descent. His kinship was as a grandson of
David, Earl of Huntingdon (younger brother of King William
_the Lion_).
Cheers,
John
Jwc...@aol.com
The point you make of Robert Brus (the King)
being different from the claimant is of course true. That Robert, husband of
Isabel de Clare was the son of Isabel, 2nd daughter of David , Earl of
Huntingdon. The apparent attack on the abbey of Deer, apparently designed by Jordan
Comyn of Inverralochy and built in conjuction with his father Earl William Comyn
of Buchan still doesn`t seem the sort of thing He should do if He were in fact
Buchan`s Great grandson as Deer was meant to be a spiritual sanctuary (They
had the option of joining the monks in prayer and meditation beyond the usual
services if they wished but had the option of returning to their normal lives
when they so desired afterward.) and likely also William`s burial place.
I noticed a few months ago (June
9) you had a discussion concerning the Grahams of Dalkeith`s descent via Adam
Fitz gilbert `s daughter Christian (?) from the Comyn family and her
grandaughter Idonea Graham`s marriage to Adam de Swinburne. Do you of any documentary
evidence which links Barnaba , 1st wife of John de Strivelyn / Stirling to this
couple. He himself has been considered by some to be a descendant of Red John
Comyn I, lord of Badenoch by his wife Eva by way of MacDougal.
John P. Ravilious
I understand you point re: the issue of Robert _the_ Bruce's
alleged Comyn ancestry and the abbey of Deer. At the same time, while
medieval men likely tended to be guided by fear of eternal damnation,
and by social connections, they also acted out of anger, political
necessity/expediency, etc. Note Robert's murder (premeditated or not)
of his cousin John Comyn in 1305/06: irregardless of any common Comyn
ancestry, they were 3rd cousins (descent from David, Earl of
Huntingdon) and were both well aware of it. If Robert were not a
descendant of William Comyn, Earl of Buchan, surely his first wife
Isabel of Mar and his beloved daughter Marjory (wife of William the
Stewart) were. The Harrowing ('Herschip') of Buchan was done for
political/military reasons. Robert the Bruce acted as he deemed he
needed, and did not consult the scrolls for familial ties before
acting any more than Edward I of England did (his decree of death by
exceptional altitude for his cousin John de Strathbogie, Earl of
Athol, in 1306 sticks out in my mind).
As to the question re: John de Stirling, I'm not sure how solid
any identification might be there. There was a John de Stirling who
was married to a daughter of Eoin 'Bacach' mac Dubhgaill of Lorn, a
descendant of the earlier John Comyn. ' Johannes de Ergadia dominus
de Lorn' granted a charter [witnessed by Malcolm Kennedy, chamberlain
of Scotland {under Baliol's government}, and many others] of the lands
of Rathoraw, Garnpennyng, Bartych, Kergyll and Fekeyrfaleach to his
aunt Mary and her husband, John de Stirling, dated at Perth, 'in
nativitate Sancti Marce ' [25 April] 1338 [Spalding Misc. V:244, no.
V]. According to my notes, this was a collateral line, ancestral to
Stirling of Keir.
If you can document anything solid re: the ancestry of Sir John
de Stirling of Glenesk and Edzell (father-in-law of Sir Alexander de
Lindsay, and ancestor of the Earls of Crawford) or of Sir John de
Stirling of Kerse (ancestor of Menteith of Kerse), I'd love to see it.
Cheers,
John