SP Addition: Helen of Strathearn, wife of Sir David Graham
John P. Ravilious
Wednesday, 9 November, 2005
Hello All,
The account in SP concerning the Grahams of Montrose provides
little concerning most of the wives of this family prior to 1400. In
the current instance, the wife of Sir David de Graham (d. bef 4 April
1374) is unidentified.
I have found the dispensation for the marriage of Sir David which
identifies his wife, and further highlights her ancestry:
" 1353.
7 Id. Oct. To David de Grame, knight, and Helen, relict
Avignon. of Reginald Chene, knight, of the dioceses of
(f. 448.) Brechin and St. Andrews.
Dispensation, at the request of John, king
of France, to intermarry, they being related
in the fourth degree of kindred. [Theiner, 305.] "[1]
Helen, wife of Sir Reginald le Cheyne, was previously identified
as the daughter of Malise, Earl of Strathearn (this from James
Primrose's "Strathbrock or the History and Antiquities of the Parish
of Uphall" as I have it). We can now set forth the pedigree based
upon the evidence given in this dispensation:
Robert, Earl = NN
of Strathearn I
d. bef 1244 I
___________________________I_____________
I I
Malise, Earl = 1) Matilda Annabela = Sir Patrick
of Strathearn I of Orkney I de Graham
d. bef 23 Nov I I k. 1296
1271 I I
________I ______ ___I______
I I I
Malise = Marjory Sir David Graham NN = Sir
E of Strathearn I Comyn d. 1329 Malcolm
d. 1312 I I Drummond
_____________I ____I_________________
I I I
Malise = 1) NN Sir David Graham Margaret
E of Strathearn I d. ca. 1330 = Hugh
d. 1328 I I E of Ross
I_______ I______
I I
1) Sir Reginald = Helen of = 2) Sir David
le Cheyne I Strathearn I de Graham
d bef 1353 I I d. 1371
V I
I
Sir Patrick Graham
1st Lord Graham
d. aft 6 May 1400
On a related note, Sir Patrick Graham, Lord Graham (d. 1400) is
identified in a charter of 1391 as a cousin of King Robert III [2].
This has been explained by two known marital relationships:
1. Sir Patrick's 2nd wife was Egidia Stewart, a 1st cousin
of the King. The date of this marriage is unknown, but
likely occurred before 1391.
2. Sir Patrick was a 3rd cousin of Annabela Drummond,
Robert III's wife, by common descent from Sir Patrick de
Graham and Annabela of Strathearn [see chart above].
Another interesting possibility: Sir Patrick's mother, Helen of
Strathearn, may actually have been a daughter of Earl Malise (d. 1328)
by his 2nd wife, Joanna de Menteith, instead of his unknown 1st wife.
If this were correct, Sir Patrick would have been a 4th cousin of King
Robert III, by common descent from Alexander the Steward (d. 1283).
[I should note, Andrew MacEwen has pointed out that the chronology
does not work well with this hypothesis.]
Cheers,
John *
NOTES
[1] Bliss,ed. Calendar of Entries in the Papal Registers
relating to Great Britain and Ireland: Papal Letters,
Vol. III (A.D. 1342 - 1362) [London: PRO, 1897, reprinted
1971], p. 514.
[2] Sir Thomas of Erskine, Sir Patrick of Graham,and Sir Robert of
Danielston, the King's cousins and knights,..' witnessed together
with others,
' A Charter under the Great Seal granted by Robert III, King of
Scotland to his cousin David Fleming of £50 sterling of annual
rent due to him by religious men,...dated at Scone, 14th March
1391.' [Charter Chest of the Earls of Wigtown, p. 101,
no. 847 - 'cf. Reg. Mag. Sig. folio vol. p. 200']
* John P. Ravilious
Diane Sheppard
would encounter of Joanna de Menteith was Helen's mother, other than
her only know children are by her third & fourth marriages.
Diane Sheppard
WJho...@aol.com
blueco...@comcast.net writes:
I don't see any chronological problem here. Do you have more specifics on
what you think the problem might be?
Thanks
Will Johnson
Diane Sheppard
I don't see a chronological problem if Joanna was Helen's mother. I
believe it is entirely possible for her to have been the mother of
Helen and not bearing another surviving child until her marriage to Sir
Maurice Moray (after 7/10/1339 date of dispensation) and her fourth
marriage to William 5th earl of Sutherland (before 11/9/1347 - date of
post-nuptial dispensation). CP 12A, p. 385.
I should know better, but I raised the issue of her only known children
being born in the 3rd & 4th marriages, trying to speculate on what the
potential chonological problems might be.
Diane Sheppard
WJho...@aol.com
blueco...@comcast.net writes:
<< I should know better, but I raised the issue of her only known children
being born in the 3rd & 4th marriages, trying to speculate on what the
potential chonological problems might be. >>
Malise, 7the Earl of Strathearn was dead by 1328 and was living in 1307
I'm not sure we know more than that. At least I don't.
Will Johnson
The...@aol.com
Diane Sheppard
CP volume 12A, p. 385 (earls of Strathearn) actually supplies us with
more dates for Malise, 7th earl. They estimate his birth between
1275-1280. The later date should be ignored, however, if we accept
CP's estimated birth for his son in 1290 (vol. 2, 476 in the coverage
of the earls of Caithness). The article on Strathearn does not
provide a birthdate for Malise, 8th earl. SP does not estimate the
birth date for either earl.
CP & SP estimate his marriage to Joanna as about 1323, based on Robert
Bruce's confirmation of Malise's gift to Joanna of the lands of
Cotarchy. CP & SP place his death as before 1329 - the date that his
son succeeded to part of Caithness.
Hope this helps,
Diane Sheppard
WJho...@aol.com
blueco...@comcast.net writes:
<< CP & SP estimate his marriage to Joanna as about 1323, based on Robert
Bruce's confirmation of Malise's gift to Joanna of the lands of Cotarchy. CP &
SP place his death as before 1329 - the date that his son succeeded to part of
Caithness. >>
Thanks for this. We've talked about the birthrange for Malise before, and
basically I tossed it out :)
But I'll accept this marriage approximation based on the confirmation
Helen could be born anywhere between 1307 and 1329
The earlier date allowing her to be as much as 47 at the earliest possible
birth year for her son Patrick, 1st Lord Graham.
The later date, allowing her to be born just posthumous to her father's last
possible death year.
Will Johnson
John P. Ravilious
I myself do not see a chronological problem with Helen of
Strathearn being a daughter of Earl Malise by his 2nd wife Joanna de
Menteith, at least based on the information available re: the Earls of
Strathearn and the Grahams of Montrose. The (est) marriage date for
Earl Malise (1323), the death date for Earl Malise (1328) and the
dispensation date for his daughter Helen marrying 2ndly to Sir David de
Graham (1353) all seem to 'work well together'.
There may be other issues, esp. re: the 'issue' of Joanna by her
last (Sutherland) marriage that is problematic in Andrew's view. I'll
enquire re: this the next time I have communication with him.
Cheers,
John
John P. Ravilious
Hello All,
Two items (one a slight correction) to the first post in this
thread:
1. Sir Patrick Graham (d. aft 6 May 1400), son of Sir David de
Graham and Helen of Strathearn, was 'dominus de Graham' or lord of
Graham, but he was NOT the first "Lord Graham" (i.e. of the peerage
created in 1445). That Patrick Graham was in fact his great-grandson.
2. An argument could be raised as to whether Patrick was the son
of Helen of Strathearn. Aside from Helen being the only known wife of
Sir David, the chronology certainly works (Sir David and Helen married
by dispensation in 1353, followed by Patrick being married 24 Aug 1372
or before - see SP VI:214) for Patrick to have been their son.
There is onomastic support for this identification. Sir
Patrick had by his 2nd wife Egidia Stewart a son Sir Patrick Graham,
who was m. ca. 1406 to Euphemia Stewart, heiress of her father David
Stewart, Earl of Strathearn (a son of King Robert II). The eldest son
and heir of this Sir Patrick and Countess Euphemia was Malise Graham,
later Earl of Strathearn, whose career is interwoven with the
assassination of King James I in 1437. The introduction of the name
Malise into the Graham family can be traced directly to Malise Graham's
paternal great-grandmother, Helen of Strathearn.
Sorry for any confusion caused by the first issue.
Cheers,
John
John P. Ravilious wrote:
> [Original message in etherea incognita...]
>
>
> Wednesday, 9 November, 2005
>
>
>
> Hello All,
>
> The account in SP concerning the Grahams of Montrose provides
> little concerning most of the wives of this family prior to 1400. In
> the current instance, the wife of Sir David de Graham (d. bef 4 April
> 1374) is unidentified.
>
> I have found the dispensation for the marriage of Sir David which
> identifies his wife, and further highlights her ancestry:
>
>
> " 1353.
> 7 Id. Oct. To David de Grame, knight, and Helen, relict
> Avignon. of Reginald Chene, knight, of the dioceses of
> (f. 448.) Brechin and St. Andrews.
> Dispensation, at the request of John, king
> of France, to intermarry, they being related
> in the fourth degree of kindred. [Theiner, 305.] "[1]
<<<<<<<<<<<< SNIP >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
WJho...@aol.com
writes:
<< There is onomastic support for this identification. Sir
Patrick had by his 2nd wife Egidia Stewart a son Sir Patrick Graham,
who was m. ca. 1406 to Euphemia Stewart, heiress of her father David
Stewart, Earl of Strathearn (a son of King Robert II). >>
Does SP and you still have support for the idea that
William, Lord Graham (d Aug 1423/5) mar Mariot Olyphant
was the son of this
Patrick Graham and his first wife?
The chronology no longer works from what I have.
Thanks
Will Johnson
John P. Ravilious
From the revised chronology of the family (as imperfect as it
stands as yet), Alexander Graham (father of Sir Patrick, the first Lord
Graham, who d. 1466) could not have been the son of Mariota Oliphant.
It now appears that either
1. Mariota Oliphant was married to Robert Graham, brother of
William (see SP VI:215-217 for discussion on this subject), or
2. If William Graham in fact married Mariota, or even a sister of
Mariota, that Alexander would have been the son of an earlier, unknown
marriage.
I have seen it put about that William Graham was married 1st to a
Lindsay (unknown to the author of the SP article). If so, and she was
a sister of Sir David de Lindsay (1st Earl of Crawford) everything
would work, incl. Alexander's name, with one outstanding gap: a
dispensation would have been needed for the marriage of Sir Patrick
Graham, Lord Graham, and his wife Christian Erskine as they would have
been related in the 3rd and 3rd degree. I have found no evidence to
date of such a dispensation, but that proves nothing one way or the
other.
Irregardless, it is safe to say the Oliphant marriage (and
descent) are out.
Thanks for raising the issue!
Cheers,
John