Robert II of France to Maud de Bernake (was CP Addition:..)
The...@aol.com
Dear Doug,
Many thanks for your fine post.
In addition to the issue of Maud de Bernake, her de Driby and
d'Aubigny ancestry is well known, but the ancestry of the de Bernake
family is either more humble, or thus far less documented.
Fortunately, thanks to outside sources [ES and such] and the work of
SGM contributors like MichaelAnne Guido, Kay Allen, Peter Stewart and
yourself, the Woodthorp family can be traced to the de Craon family of
Freiston, and ultimately to Robert II of France and beyond. The
pedigree below provides documentation of this descent, as I now have
it.
I hope the following is of interest. Anyone having relevant
comment, criticism or added documentation, that would of course be
most welcome.
Cheers,
John
===========================================
1 Robert II of France
----------------------------------------
Birth: 27 Mar 0972
Death: 20 Jul 1031
Occ: King of France 996-1031
Father: Hugh 'Capet' of France (ca0941-0996)
Mother: Adela [allegedly of Aquitaine] (ca0950-1004)
crowned as King joint with his father, Christmas 987[1]
he m. 1stly (as 2nd husband) Rosala-Suzanna of Ivrea (div.),
2ndly Bertha of Burgundy (annulment due to consanguinity),
3rdly Constance of Arles
Spouse: Constance of Arles [3rd wife]
Death: 25 Jul 1032[2]
Father: William II, Count of Provence (-0993)
Mother: Adela of Anjou (->1026)
Marr: bef 25 Aug 1003[3]
Children: Henry I, King of France (-1060)
Adela (-1079), m. Baldwin V of Flanders
Robert I, Duke of Burgundy (1011-1075)
Hedwig (Hawise) (->1063)
Constance, m. Manasses de Ramerupt, count of Dammartin
1.1 Hedwig (Hawise) of France
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 5 Jun 1063[4]
"S. Rainaldi, comitis et uxoris ejus Advise" (trans: The mark of
Count Raynald and of his wife Advisa). [Peter Stewart,
cites _Recueil des chartes de l'abbaye de Cluny_[5]]
had the county of Auxerre as her maritagium [Jessee p. 20[3]]
cf. ES I Band III, Tafel 716 [called 'Adele' in error][4]
Spouse: Renaud I de Nevers, count of Nevers
Death: 24 May 1040, slain at Sainte-Vertu[4],[3]
Father: Landre de Maers (-1028)
Mother: Mathilda of the Franche-Comte (-1005)
Marr: aft 25 Jan 1016[4],[3]
Children: William I (-1100), count of Nevers
Robert 'the Burgundian' (->1098)
Henri
Guy (->1081)
1.1.1 Robert 'the Burgundian' of Nevers[6]
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1098[7]
Occ: vicomte de Sable
seigneur de Sable, de jure uxoris
seigneur de Craon before 26 Mar 1053
d. on First Crusade, aft 1098[7]
his parentage as given is probable: Peter Stewart wrote, concerning
this point and identification as probable by Constance Bouchard,
' W Scott Jessee is reasonably more certain on this point: he notes
[in *A Missing Capetian Princess: Advisa Daughter of King Robert
II of France*, _Medieval Prosopography_ 11 (1990)] that both
Guillaume of Nevers and Robert the Burgundian were described in
charters as "nepos" to Robert II's son King Henri I. Robert was
also called "nepos" to Guillaume's great-aunt Agnčs, wife of Geoffroy
II Martel, count of Anjou, when at the age of 16 he witnessed a
charter of hers. A 13th-century writer, plausibly drawing on
an older source for family details, named Robert as one of five
brothers along with Guillaume (four of them are attested in other
records).'[7]
Further, Peter Stewart noted that Ordericus Vitalis identified
Ermengarde, daughter of William of Nevers, as niece (probably 'nepta')
of Robert the Burgundian[7]
'Robert le Bourguignon de Nevers'[4]
cf. ES I, Band III, Tafel 719[4]
Jessee, "Robert the Burgundian and the Counts of Anjou"[3]
Spouse: Hawise de Sable[6]
Father: Geoffrey de Sable, vicomte de Sable
Children: Renaud (-1101)
Robert (-1110), vicomte de Sable
Geoffrey
Burgonde (->1126)
1.1.1.1 Renaud de Craon
----------------------------------------
Death: Dec 1101[4]
Occ: sieur de Craon
sieur de Craon et de Sable
obtained Craon as his wife's inheritance
cf. ES I, Band III, Tafel 719[4]
Spouse: Agnes de Vitre
Father: Robert de Vitre, seigneur de Vitre
Mother: Bertha de Craon
Marr: bef 3 Mar 1070[4]
Children: Maurice (-1116), sieur de Craon
Henri
Robert
Mahaut
Guy (-1121)
1.1.1.1.1 Guy de Craon
----------------------------------------
Death: 1121[8],[9]
of Freiston, co. Lincs.
'Wido de Credon', tenant of Ralph de Gael prior to 1075; acquired some
of the forfeited lands, thereafter tenant in chief (for Freiston and
others) at Domesday Book, 1086 (DP 464)[10]
'Guy de Craon lord of Freiston, d. 1118' - cf. ES I, Band III Tafel
719[4]
Spouse: Isabella
Father: Hugh fitz Baldric, of Cottingham, co. Yorks.
Children: Alan (-ca1155)
Lisious
Emma
Alice
1.1.1.1.1.1 Alan de Craon
----------------------------------------
Death: ca 1155[8]
of Freiston, co. Lincs.
'Alan de Creun', founder of Freiston priory, as a cell of Crowland
Abbey (to which church of Freiston was granted, 1114][11]
'A. Credonensis et Muriel uxor eius', benefactor of Spalding priory
together with his wife[11]
'Alan lord of Freiston ' - cf. ES I, Band III Tafel 719[4]
Spouse: Muriel de Beauchamp[8]
Children: Maurice (-1188) de Craon, lord of Freiston
Cecilia
1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Cecilia de Craon
----------------------------------------
cf. DD 417[11]
Spouse: William fitz Simon, of Woodthorp, co. Lincs.
Children: Alan fitz William
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Alan fitz William de Woodthorp
----------------------------------------
of Woodthorp, co. Lincs.
Children: Thomas
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Thomas de Woodthorp
----------------------------------------
of Woodthorp, co. Lincs.
Children: Sir William (-<1263)
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Sir William de Woodthorp
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1263, d.s.p.m.[12]
of Woodthorp, co. Lincs.
held 1/6 of a knight's fee in Saleby, co. Lincs.[13],[12]
Children: Maud
Elizabeth
Alice
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Maud de Woodthorp
----------------------------------------
coheir of her father
cf. MichaelAnne Guido[12]
Spouse: Hugh de Bernake
Children: Sir William (-1339)
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.3.1 Sir William de Bernake
----------------------------------------
Death: 1339[14]
cf. MichaelAnne Guido[12]
Spouse: Alice de Driby[15]
Birth: bef 1279[16]
Father: Sir Robert de Driby (-<1280)
Mother: Joan de Tateshal (->1305)
Children: Sir John (~1309-1345)
Maud
Robert
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Sir John de Bernake[15]
----------------------------------------
Birth: abt 1309[14]
Death: 20 Mar 1345[17]
of Buckenham, Besthorpe, Denton, Hethersett, and
Wymondham, Norfolk
called 'of Tateshal, co. Lincoln'[18] in error [cf. Richardson]
Spouse: Joan Marmion
Death: bef 14 Oct 1361[17]
Father: John Marmion (ca1292-1335)
Mother: Maud de Furnival (->1347)
Children: Maud (~1337-1419), m. Sir Ralph de Cromwell
John (-ca1360)
William
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.2 Maud de Bernake
----------------------------------------
cf. Richardson p. 366[19]
Spouse: Sir James de Ros
Death: 30 Sep 1362[19],[20]
Father: Robert de Ros (-<1311)
Mother: Ernberga
Marr: bef 20 Jun 1323[19]
Children: Nicholas
James
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.3 Robert de Bernake
----------------------------------------
1. Pierre Riche (trans. by Michael I. Allen), "The Carolingians,"
Philadelphia: Univ. of Pennsylvania Press, 1993.
2. Christian Settipani, "Trente-Deux Quartiers Ahnenreihe for Eleanor
of Aquitaine," 6 Sept 1998, GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com,
rootsweb.com (rsponse to D.Spencer Hines, same subject, 2 Sept
1998.
3. W. Scott Jessee, "Robert the Burgundian and the Counts of Anjou,
ca. 1025-1098," Washington, D.C.: Catholic University of America
Press, 2000.
4. Detlev Schewennicke, "Europäische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln zur
Geschichte der Europäischen Staaten, Neue Folge," [ " European
Family Trees: Family Trees for the History of European States,
New Series " ], Marburg, Germany: Verlag von J. A. Stargardt,
1978-1995 [3rd series], First series by Wilhelm Karl, Prinz zu
Isenburg, continued second series by Frank, Baron Freytag von
Loringhoven.
5. Peter Stewart, "Adčle, dau. of Robert II," 25 June 2003,
GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com, cites no. 92, diploma of Robert's
son King Henry I, in _Diplomata belgica ante annum millesimum
centesimum scripta_, edited by Maurits Gysseling & Anton Koch,
2 vols, Bouwstoffen en Studiėn voor de Geschiedenis en de
Lexicografie van het Nederlands 1.
6. Todd A. Farmerie, "Ralph de Fougeres and Ralph du Mans," Oct 24,
1997, GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com.
7. Peter Stewart, "Re: Guy de Nevers," June 17, 2002, email,
the...@aol.com (paper copy: library of John Ravilious, cites
'Robert the Burgundian and the Counts of Anjou, ca. 1025-1098
(Washington, 2000), re: career of Robert; also W. Scott Jessee,
A Missing Capetian Princess: Advisa Daughter of King Robert II
of France*, _Medieval Prosopography_ 11 (1990), also discussion
by others (Todd Farmerie and Joan Burdyck).
8. Kay Allen, AG, "Re: [Fwd: Dakeny, NO. Craon, yes?]," April 22,
2002, email, the...@aol.com (paper copy: library of John
Ravilious, cites Sheppard, who cites Moriarty's Notebooks 9,
10, 1nd 12;, Clay's _Early Yorkshire Charters_, and Blore's
_Rutland_.
9. I. J. Sanders, "English Baronies: A Study of Their Origin and
Descent, 1086-1327," Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1960.
10. Katherine S. B. Keats-Rohan, "Domesday People," The Boydell Press,
1999, Vol. I: A Prosopography of Persons Occurring in English
Documents 1066-1166.
11. K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, "Domesday Descendants," The Boydell Press,
Woodbridge, 2002, cited by Rosie Bevan, 'Re: de Stuteville' Jul 2,
2002, p. 723 (Osmund de Stuteville), full title: Domesday
Descendants: A Prosopography of Persons, Occurring in English
Documents 1066-1166: Pipe Rolls to Cartae Baronum.
12. MichaelAnne Guido, "Re: Kirkton," 16 May 2004, cites A History of
the villages of Aisthorpe and Thorpe in the Fallows by CW Foster,
MA, Canon of Lincoln, J.W. Ruddock and Sons 1927., also
contributions by Rosie Bevan and Patricia Junkin.
13. John P. Ravilious, "Re: Kirkton," 16 May 2004, cites contribution
by MichaelAnne Guido (same thread), also contributions by Rosie
Bevan and Patricia Junkin.
14. Paul C. Reed, "Driby," Society of Medieval Genealogy
(@rootsweb.com), 22 June 1999, posted on
GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com.
15. Frederick L. Weis, Th. D., "The Magna Carta Sureties, 1215,"
Baltimore: Gen Pub Co., 5th ed., 1997 (W. L. Sheppard Jr &
David Faris).
16. Paul C. Reed, FASG, "Amy de Gaveston an Illegitimate Daughter of
Margaret de Clare?," June 29, 1999, GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com.
17. Douglas Richardson, "Plantagenet Ancestry: A Study in Colonial and
Medieval Families," Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Company,
2004.
18. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 - [microprint,
1982 (Alan Sutton) ], The Complete Peerage of England Scotland
Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom.
19. Douglas Richardson, "Magna Carta Ancestry: A Study in Colonial
and Medieval Families," Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing
Company, 2005.
20. Paul C. Reed, FASG, "Re: Roos of Ingmanthorpe, York," May 15,
2002, GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com, cites descent of de Ros of
Gedney (based on his research).
=========================
Douglas Richardson wrote
25 August 2005
"C.P. Addition: Maud de Bernake, wife of Sir Ralph de Cromwell, Lord Cromwell"
Dear Newsgroup ~
The record below concerns a Lincolnshire Feet of Fines dated 1263,
which involves Hugh de Bernake and his wife, Maud. Hugh de Bernake and
his wife Maud are the patrilineal great-grandparents of Maud de
Bernake, wife of Sir Ralph de Cromwell, 1st Lord Cromwell. The
locality named in the fine, Woodthorpe, Lincolnshire, lies two miles
west of Markby, Lincolnshire. The manor of Woodthorpe eventually fell
by inheritance to Maud de Bernake, Lady Cromwell. It was mentioned as
one of Lady Cromwell's possessions in her will dated 1416 [see Report
on the Manuscripts of Lord de L'Isle & Dudley Preserved at Penshurst
Place, 1 (Hist. MSS. Comm. 77) (1925): 204-206]. It subsequently
passed to her grandson and heir, Ralph Cromwell, 3rd Lord Cromwell,
Lord Treasurer of England [Reference: Ibid., 207-208].
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www.royalancestry.net
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Source: C.W. Foster, ed., Final Concords of the County of Lincoln from
the Feet of Fines preserved in the Public Record Office, A.D. 1244-1272
(Lincoln Rec. Soc. 17) (1921): 204-205:
"No. 73. At Lincoln; from Trinity in fifteen days, 47 Henry III, [10
June, 1263].
Between Hugh de Bernack and Maud his wife, Peter de Kyrketon and
Elizabeth his wife and Richard de Marisco [Marsh] and Alina his wife,
plaintiffs, and Roger prior of Markby, tenant, of 8 acres of land in
Wudethorp [Woodthorpe].
Assize of mort d'ancestor. The plaintiffs have quitclaimed from
themselves and the heirs of Maud, Elizabeth and Alina to the prior, his
successors and his church all the right and claim which they had in the
land, for ever. And the prior has received the plaintiffs into all the
benefits and prayers which shall henceforth be made in his church for
ever."
Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com
Am I correct in thinking that you overlooked Blair Southerden's good
post on the Woodthorpe family in the newsgroup archives?
Besides the Woodthorpe family, another family connected to the Craon
family of Lincolnshire was the well known baronial family of
Huntingfield. I'm uncertain of the exact connection, however.
John P. Ravilious
Thanks for your kind words, and the ref. to Blair's prior post. I
had not seen that before, but have copied same for review this p.m.
For those interested, the subject detailed post:
<Re: Kirton, Lincs and de Craon> on 21 April 2002
Cheers,
John
P.S. - I am not aware of a de Craon - de Huntingfield connection
but will look into that in short order.
Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com
My research indicates that William Fitz Roger, of Huntingfield.
Suffolk, living 1158, was a cousin of Maurice de Craon. William Fitz
Roger in turn was the paternal grandfather of the Magna Carta baron,
William de Huntingfield.
According to the website below, William Fitz Roger's mother was Emma de
Craon, daughter of Guy de Craon.
http://www.geneajourney.com/hntgfld.html
The above website cites the following as its sources:
SGM: Kay Allen [ref: Sheppard per Moriarty's Notebooks]; Rosie Bevan
[ref: Keats-Rohan's Domesday Descendants].
If the above connection is correct, then William Fitz Roger (de
Huntingfield) would have been a first cousin to Maurice de Craon. The
Huntingfield family would thus share the same descent from King Robert
II of France through the Craon family, as the one which you have set
forth today for the Woodthorpe, Bernake, and Cromwell families.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www.royalancestry.net
WJho...@aol.com
<< Father: Sir Robert de Driby (-<1280)
Mother: Joan de Tateshal (->1305) >>
On the death of Joan, don't we actually know that she was still living in
1323?
See this document below
Will Johnson
----------------------------------
C 143/168/1: Joan late the wife of Robert de Driby to settle the castle and
manor of Tattershall, and messuages and rent in Boston, the manor of Bredon
(Leic.), messuages, land, and rent in New Buckenham, Old Buckenham,
Attleborough, and Ellingham, the third part of the manor of Wymondham, and the eighth part
of the manor of Buckenham, with the advowsons of the church of Tattershall
and Kirkstead abbey, on herself for life, with remainder as to the messuages,
land, and rent in New Buckenham, Old Buckenham, Attleborough, and Ellingham, the
third part of the manor of Wymondham and the eighth part of the manor of
Buckenham to William de Bernak, Alice his wife, and the heirs of their bodies; and
as to the castle and manor of Tattershall, tenements in Boston and the
advowsons, to Robert son of the said Joan for life, remainder to the said William
and Alice and the heirs of their bodies; and as to the manor of Bredon to John
son of the said Joan for life, remainder to the said William and Alice and the
heirs of their bodies, remainder to the right heirs of Joan, retaining the
manors of Holwell and Kettleby (Leic.), Tumby and Kirkby-upon-Bain (Lincoln), the
manor of Babbingley, and a part of the Tolbooth of Lynn (Norfolk). Lincoln.
Leic. Norfolk. Date: 17 Edward II [1323-4].
WJho...@aol.com
<< 1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Sir John de Bernake[15]
----------------------------------------
Birth: abt 1309[14]
Death: 20 Mar 1345[17]
of Buckenham, Besthorpe, Denton, Hethersett, and
Wymondham, Norfolk
called 'of Tateshal, co. Lincoln'[18] in error [cf. Richardson]
Spouse: Joan Marmion
Death: bef 14 Oct 1361[17]
Father: John Marmion (ca1292-1335)
Mother: Maud de Furnival (->1347)
Children: Maud (~1337-1419), m. Sir Ralph de Cromwell
John (-ca1360)
William >>
----------------------------------------------
Is not this William the same son given on this newsgroup with a death date of
18 Dec 1360 ?
Thanks
Will Johnson
Peter Stewart
<The...@aol.com> wrote in message news:cd.2f3a270...@aol.com...
<snip>
> 1 Robert II of France
> ----------------------------------------
> Birth: 27 Mar 0972
King Robert II's birthdate is not known - his earliest biographer, the monk
Helgaud of Fleury, believed the king to be sixty years old at his death on
20 July 1031, suggesting that he was born within the twelve months leading
up to 20 July 971. This is the most direct evidence from a well-placed
source, but may have been an educated guess, perhaps one shared by the king
with his entourage - if so, it was probably accurate enough, since Robert's
mother lived until he was an adult & ought to have been able to recall when
he was born.
However, the exact meaning of 'sexagenarius' in this context has been
interpreted differently: Ferdinand Lot opted for 972 as the year of Robert's
birth, determining this from a concordance between his understanding of
Helgaud (as meaning the king was still in his sixtieth year at the time of
death, aged fifty-nine rather than literally sixty) and a plausible
chronology of several subsequent events. However, Andrew Lewis thought that
even this approximate reading of 'sexagenarius' was somehow too literal.
Richer stated that Robert was in his nineteenth year at the time of his
first divorce, but exactly when this took place depends on an uncertain
order in the narrative and an alleged synchronicity with matters recounted
in the previous chapter of Richar's history, occurring in the spring and
early summer of 992. If Robert was then still aged 18, he would have been
born after mid-973 but before the end of June 974, and therefore only
fifty-seven or just turned fifty-eight rather than properly a sexagenarian
when he died.
<snip>
> Children: Henry I, King of France (-1060)
> Adela (-1079), m. Baldwin V of Flanders
> Robert I, Duke of Burgundy (1011-1075)
> Hedwig (Hawise) (->1063)
> Constance, m. Manasses de Ramerupt, count of Dammartin
The connection of Countess Constance of Dammartin to the royal family is
purely speculative, and quite unconvincing to me. I'm sure this has been
discussed before & will turn up in the SGM archive.
>
> 1.1 Hedwig (Hawise) of France
> ----------------------------------------
> Death: aft 5 Jun 1063[4]
>
> "S. Rainaldi, comitis et uxoris ejus Advise" (trans: The mark of
> Count Raynald and of his wife Advisa). [Peter Stewart,
> cites _Recueil des chartes de l'abbaye de Cluny_[5]]
<chomp>
> 5. Peter Stewart, "Adčle, dau. of Robert II," 25 June 2003,
> GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com, cites no. 92, diploma of Robert's
> son King Henry I, in _Diplomata belgica ante annum millesimum
> centesimum scripta_, edited by Maurits Gysseling & Anton Koch,
> 2 vols, Bouwstoffen en Studiėn voor de Geschiedenis en de
> Lexicografie van het Nederlands 1.
Has your note [5] been mislabelled through telescoping the family of Robert
II? The reference in your post is to Advisa, while the citation relates to
Adela.
Peter Stewart
John P. Ravilious
Dear Doug,
Thanks for the leads re: the apparent de Craon connection to the
Huntingfield family. I will review the matter in short order.
Cheers,
John
John P. Ravilious
Thanks for that. The date showing in my database was based on
CP (Tateshal), where Joan was named as a living coheiress in
Inquisition p.m. for her nephew Robert, Lord Tateshal dated 30 Jan
1305/06.
I will update accordingly.
Cheers,
John
WJho...@aol.com
who was b 8 Oct 1634 London and d abt 1687 in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania) also
descends from Richard, 2nd Lord Foliot.
Will Johnson
John P. Ravilious
Many thanks for the details re: Robert II of France. I will
also look into the archives re: Manasses de Ramerupt and the issue of
his Capetian (or non-Capetian) marriage.
The reference to Advisa/Hawise, wife of Count Renaud of Nevers,
was in fact from the same post as shown in my notes - the source you
had cited was _Recueil des chartes de l'abbaye de Cluny_ . This was
not picked up in the note details in my database previously, but I have
now included same.
Much appreciated.
Cheers,
John
John P. Ravilious
This connection (through Sir Hugh de Hastings and Margaret de
Everingham) is a mutual one. If it would be of interest, I could post
an AT of what I have for their ancestry (minimal detail on SGM for
bandwidth's sake) - and forward a more detailed one directly, if you'd
like.
Likewise, I'd be interested in comparing what details you have,
or would add to this AT.
Meanwhile, good luck, and good continued hunting.
Cheers,
John
Leo van de Pas
Thanks to your message I have now marked this James as a Gateway ancestor.
That he is a descendant of Richard, 2nd Lord Foliot can be found on my
website----if you follow the right lines :-)
Best wishes.
Leo van de Pas
WJho...@aol.com
writes:
<< This connection (through Sir Hugh de Hastings and Margaret de
Everingham) is a mutual one. If it would be of interest, I could post
an AT of what I have for their ancestry (minimal detail on SGM for
bandwidth's sake) - and forward a more detailed one directly, if you'd
like.
Likewise, I'd be interested in comparing what details you have,
or would add to this AT. >>
John thanks for the offer. Unfortunately I have not yet done any *original*
work on the ancestry of this couple. Only getting so far as copying this
newsgroup and what genealogics shows.
And it's problematic for me a tad, as I've presented evidence, on AWT that so
far no one has disputed, that the Mary who married Jacob Denton in 1758 (and
it therefore ancestral to myself) may not be the daughter of James Claypool,
grandson of this immigrant. Which is far-away from medieval but illustrates
why I have left this line be for the time being :)
Will Johnson
Peter Stewart
<snip>
> I will also look into the archives re: Manasses de Ramerupt and
> the issue of his Capetian (or non-Capetian) marriage.
I might have posted this or something like it before:
The alleged relationship between King Robert II and Constance, wife of
Manasser, count of Dammartin, was conjectured fairly assertively by
Joseph Depoin in 1912, largely on the ground of onomastics, and the
case was put forward again more circumspectly by Jean-Noël Mathieu in
a 1996 paper. However, it remains open to doubt for several reasons.
First, the name Constance is stated to have been uncommon at this time
in northern France, and furthermore its introduction to the Dammartin
lineage was followed in the next generation by the names Odo and Hugo,
belonging also in the royal family. Mathieu considered that Dammartin
was probably given to Manasser by Robert along with his daughter in
1023, but this line of argument is rendered nearly circular with the
suggestion that Robert might have contracted the union of his daughter
with the younger son of a minor supporter in order to take advantage of
Dammartin's strategic location on the route from Paris to Soissons
and Laon. So the king gave away Dammartin with the bride and yet gave
the bride to obtain Dammartin: even allowing for shades of grey in the
circumstances, it is hard to see why the gift of an important lordship,
elevated to comital rank, would not have achieved a consolidation of
alliances on its own, without the addition of a daughter who might have
been more profitably bestowed upon someone else of higher rank and
pre-existing power.
Since Constance of Arles had been Robert's wife for around twenty
years in 1023, it is also hard to see why her name could not have been
adopted in this interval by unrelated aristocratic families wishing to
compliment the queen as a girl's god-mother; or, since the quality of
constancy was admired without reference to her, the queen's name was
apt enough to be used independently of the royal court. So for that
matter were Odo and Hugo, which had both become fairly commonplace by
the late tenth century.
The name Constance was certainly not unexampled in previous and
contemporary generations to the north of the queen's original home in
Provence, in lesser noble families amongst which a younger son like
Manasser might have found his bride: for instance, Constance, wife of
Odo, occurs ca 980 in a charter of Cluny. Other instances of this name
during Robert's reign appear in charters at Bourges, Ainay and
Poitiers, while the masculine form Constantius remained a popular name
in Poitou throughout four centuries around the year 1000. So the
onomastics are by no means compelling for a royal connection of the
countess of Dammartin.
The only further evidences adduced by Mathieu are a single charter
given by Count Manasser in the presence of the king, the queen and
their sons in 1031, and the fact that his successor and presumed
descendant Renard was described as 'consanguineus' to King Philippe II.
However, Mathieu himself admits that the latter can be explained by
different hypotheses, while as to the former, any count might be
expected to have attended the king and witnessed charters along with
him, and there is certainly no indication of a family relationship in
the cited example.
Mathieu also remarked that, according to Glaber, Robert and Constance
had two daughters, who are both accounted for without the countess of
Dammartin. By means of a forced ingenuity, Mathieu adds that Glaber did
not specify there were _only_ two daughters.
At best the case is unproven. A charter given by Manasser and his sons
in the presence of King Robert, Queen Constance and their sons, and
another given later by Manasser's heir in the presence of their son
King Henri I do not allude to any relationship between the respective
families. NB Constance of Dammartin was evidently dead before the
latter charter, which was dated 9 August without year: this cannot have
been earlier than 1038 or later than 1059.
Peter Stewart
Gary Smith
<WJho...@aol.com> wrote in message news:1c4.2f3f9f...@aol.com...
WJho...@aol.com
garym...@comcast.net writes:
<< James Claypoole II died 06 Jun 1687, to be exact. >>
Would you share your source for this exact date?
Thanks
Will Johnson
al...@mindspring.com
re:" 1.1.1.1 Renaud de Craon
----------------------------------------
Death: Dec 1101[4]
Occ: sieur de Craon
sieur de Craon et de Sable
obtained Craon as his wife's inheritance
cf. ES I, Band III, Tafel 719[4]
Spouse: Agnes de Vitre
Father: Robert de Vitre, seigneur de Vitre
Mother: Bertha de Craon
Marr: bef 3 Mar 1070[4]
Children: Maurice (-1116), sieur de Craon
Henri
Robert
Mahaut
Guy (-1121)
1.1.1.1.1 Guy de Craon
----------------------------------------
Death: 1121[8],[9]
of Freiston, co. Lincs.
'Wido de Credon', tenant of Ralph de Gael prior to 1075; acquired some
of the forfeited lands, thereafter tenant in chief (for Freiston and
others) at Domesday Book, 1086 (DP 464)[10]
'Guy de Craon lord of Freiston, d. 1118' - cf. ES I, Band III Tafel
719[4] "
Keats-Rohan "confidently" says that this Guy was the son of Robert de
Vitre and Berthe de Craon citing Morice, Preuves I, 413. However, you
show him as son of Renaud de Craon and Agnes de Vitre based on ES.
Which is this correct??
Doug Smith
Todd A. Farmerie
Certainly the chronology is tight. If William of Nevers married after
1016, as indicated, his younger son Robert is not likely to be born
before 1020. His eldest son, Renaud, is not likely to be born much
before 1040, and Guy, a younger son of him, would not likely be born
much before 1060. That makes it unlikely such a great-grandson of
William would be tennant of Ralph de Gael prior to 1075. It is
possible, but it very tight. It is thus unlikely that Guy belongs here,
as shown. However, if son of Robert de Vitre and Bertha de Craon, what
would be the explanation for him not being heir to his parents, and for
Craon instead apparently passing to a sister married to Renaud?
taf
John P. Ravilious
Dear Doug,
While I would be typically hesitant to prefer ES over K K-R when
it comes to French and Norman families, in this case I'd say ES is
correct.
A. Bertha de Craon is shown as Bertha, Dame de Craon ' in ES [ ES I,
Band III, Tafel 719], and identified by KSB K-R as (evidently) 2nd wife
of Robert de Vitre (DP 464, citing Morice, Preuves, I:413.
B. Agnes, dau. of Robert de Vitre and Bertha de Craon, is shown as
'Enoguen (Agnes), Dame de Craon' [ ES I, Band III, Tafel 719], and
carried the lordship of Craon to her husband, Renaud, sieur de Craon.
C. Maurice de Craon, son of Renaud and Agnes, succeeded to the
lordship of Craon.
Had Guy de Craon been a legitimate son of Robert de Vitre and
Bertha de Craon, he would rightly have been lord of Craon; the lordship
would not have passed to his sister Bertha and her issue.
Based on the foregoing, the ES identification of Guy as son of
Renaud de Craon and Agnes de Vitre appears valid.
Comments, or relevant documentation, welcome as always.
Cheers,
John
John P. Ravilious
As I just posted (in re: the inheritance of the lordship of
Craon).
Agreed that the chronology appears tight - the underlying
documents (and their dating) is certainly an avenue for confirming the
matter.
Cheers,
John
al...@mindspring.com
If you habve access to this it might be helpful:
Bertrand de Broussillon, Arthur. La maison de Craon 1050-1480. 2 vols.
Paris, 1893.
Doug
John P. Ravilious
There are several works of de Broussillon in the LOC collection;
unfortunately, this is not one of them.
Perhaps another of the list may find same elsewhere (e.g.
Harvard, etc.) - ?
Thanks for the reference - will keep an eye out....
Cheers,
John
fairt...@breathe.com
> There are several works of de Broussillon in the LOC collection;
> unfortunately, this is not one of them.
> Perhaps another of the list may find same elsewhere (e.g.
> Harvard, etc.) - ?
A copy is on the open shelves in Institute of Historical Researchg
University of London, ref EFP.619/Cra
Unfortunately I won't being going there for about a month - let me know
after 5th test finishes whether you still want it - should be able to xerox
the odd page or two
cheers
Simon
Peter Stewart
<fairt...@breathe.com> wrote in message
news:E1E94wf-...@mk-webmail-1.b2b.uk.tiscali.com...
Golly, Simon - it's all over bar the shouting already.
Unless we see a repeat of Headingley the other way round....but I'm not
betting on this & I don't suppose your pair of Joneses are either, in the
manner of Lilley & Marsh.
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
"Todd A. Farmerie" <farm...@interfold.com> wrote in message
news:deq536$6ss$1...@eeyore.INS.cwru.edu...
> Certainly the chronology is tight. If William of Nevers married after
> 1016, as indicated, his younger son Robert is not likely to be born before
> 1020.
The reference is to Renaud of Nevers, not William (who was his eldest son).
The dating of his marriage to Advisa (mother of his younger son Robert) is
uncertain. This evidently took place after January 1016 & before June 1023
when Renaud's unnamed wife was mentioned in a charter of his father.
It's also not certain when Advisa was born. If whe was marriageable shortly
after January 1016 she was presumably born early in, or before, 1002. If
legitimate, this would make her a daughter of King Robert's tendentious
second marriage, to Bertha of Burgundy, rather than of his third, to
Constance of Arles, which cannot have taken place until 1003/4 (possibly by
25 August 1003). A connection to Bertha would make a considerable difference
to the politics considered by historians, especially by W. Scott Jesse in
his paper on 'The Missing Capetian Princess'.
The stronger likelihood, at least under a conventional reconstruction of
King Robert's family, is that Advisa was daughter of Constance, born in or
after 1004 and married no earlier than 1018. Her son Robert the Burgundian
is usually said to have been born ca 1025, as in the title of his only
modern biography, W. Scott Jesse's _Robert the Burgundian and the Counts of
Anjou, ca 1025-1098_ (Washington, 2000).
Peter Stewart
WJho...@aol.com
p_m_s...@msn.com writes:
<< Her son Robert the Burgundian
is usually said to have been born ca 1025, as in the title of his only
modern biography, W. Scott Jesse's _Robert the Burgundian and the Counts of
Anjou, ca 1025-1098_ (Washington, 2000). >>
And he went on the First Crusade when he was 73. I wonder if that is
remarked upon by the historians of his day. I would think it would be pretty unusual.
Will Johnson
Peter Stewart
> p_m_stew...@msn.com writes:
>
> > Her son Robert the Burgundian is usually said to have been born
> > ca 1025, as in the title of his only modern biography, W. Scott
> > Jesse's _Robert the Burgundian and the Counts of Anjou, ca
> > 1025-1098_ (Washington, 2000).
>
> And he went on the First Crusade when he was 73. I wonder if that
> is remarked upon by the historians of his day. I would think it would
> be pretty unusual.
I haven't checked, but I doubt that Robert was much noted for this by
chroniclers - his departure for Palestine is more likely to be known
from his own charter/s or obituary notice/s than from narrative
histories.
However, it was not all that unusual for people to decide they wanted
to die in the Holy Land, and to set out for Jerusalem with no intention
of going back to Europe.
Peter Stewart