Attention John P Dulong and Catherine Baillon
Leo van de Pas
A note of caution, have you seen ES VII Tafel 94?
Arnold V de Gavre, died 1387, was married to (Jeanne de Roye),
in other words, they are not certain about her----are you?
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, ACT, Australia
John P. DuLong
> Your e-mail has "a clothes-peg" attached to it, and wouldn't allow me to
reply to you or to gen-med.
OK, Leo, you have me mystified about a clothes-peg. I went into my sent
file and do not see anything like a clothes-peg with my message. [I do see
I should have added ing to Regarding.] Do you mean it looks like a
paper-clip, the sign for an attached file? This does not make sense either
as I have not attached anything to the message.
> A note of caution, have you seen ES VII Tafel 94?
> Arnold V de Gavre, died 1387, was married to (Jeanne de Roye),
> in other words, they are not certain about her----are you?
My colleagues and I are fairly certain that Arnould V de Gavre was married
to a de Roye. His daughter, Marguerite de Gavre d'Escornaix was the abbess
of Nivelles. There is a commemorative plaque in Nivelles for her that
displays the arms of her parents and her four grandparents. One of these
arms are those of de Roye. In addition, Arnould's wife is named as Jeanne
de Roye in Guy de Liedekerke's _Histoire de la maison de Gavre et de
Liedekerke_ (Bruxells, 1957), pp. 210 and 220. However, she is not
mentioned in Père Anselme's _Maison royale ..._ article about the de Roye
family, vol. 8, pp. 7-15. We document Jeanne de Roye on p. 125 of our book,
_Table d'ascendance de Catherine Baillon_.
As you know, daughters are more often neglected to be mentioned than sons.
I suspect that is going on in this case. Also, I have observed that if a
woman is of lower or equal rank, then the records of her husband's family
will often not make clear her social origins. However, if she is from a
prestigious family, then her relationship to that family will usually be
clearly indicated. I suspect that the de Gavres did not think that the de
Royes were special, or at least any more special than they were. It was a
marriage of equals.
The de Roye family is not one of the families we searched in the records of
the Cabinet des titres of the Bibliothèque nationale de France. Also, as
this is a Franco-Belgian family, we did not search the records of the Le
Fort herald and genealogist of the Liège in the Holy Roman Empire. I do not
have the exact citation handy, but Le Fort is like a smaller version of
d'Hozier! The Family History Library in Salt Lake City has the Le Fort
manuscripts on microfilm. Perhaps I will check them next time I visit Utah,
that is, if someone does not beat me to it.
My colleagues and I have all moved on to other projects now. So we are
leaving this de Roye possibility to others to investigate. This is an
excellent opportunity for some enterprising descendant of Catherine Baillon
to extend her lineage.
JP
John P. DuLong, Ph.D.
Acadian and French Canadian Genealogy
959 Oxford Road
Berkley, MI 48072-2011
USA
(248) 541-2894
http://habitant.org
Denis Beauregard
<dul...@habitant.org> écrivait dans soc.genealogy.medieval:
>Fort herald and genealogist of the Liège in the Holy Roman Empire. I do not
>have the exact citation handy, but Le Fort is like a smaller version of
>d'Hozier! The Family History Library in Salt Lake City has the Le Fort
>manuscripts on microfilm. Perhaps I will check them next time I visit Utah,
>that is, if someone does not beat me to it.
For your information, there is a copy of the Le Fort manuscript
in a faxsimile format (like a photocopied book) at SGCF, so your
colleagues in Montreal can check it any time.
Denis, P/R of SGCF (whatever that P/R status could mean ;-) )
--
0 Denis Beauregard
/\/ Web de généalogie: http://www.genealogie.com (français)
|\ Genealogy Web site: http://www.francogene.com (English)
/ | >>Adresse modifiée souvent/email changed frequently<<
oo oo Ancestors in Quebec ? What about vacations in your homeland!
John P. DuLong
> For your information, there is a copy of the Le Fort manuscript
> in a faxsimile format (like a photocopied book) at SGCF, so your
> colleagues in Montreal can check it any time.
I would hope someone would check out Le Fort for de Roye and Dudzeele,
another Flemish family in Catherine Baillon's ancestry. My Montréal
colleagues are busy on other projects right now. So this is an opportunity
for someone else to make a break through on Catherine Baillon's ancestry.
You want to give it a try Denis?
Frankly, I think of Catherine Baillon as an ancestral gold mine. She has so
many possible ancestors to still be mined. Her ancestry will be keeping
genealogists busy for decades. I hope there are still some very interesting
lines to be discovered for her.
Annie Natalelli-Waloszek
I'm interested in the Roye family of this period as there is a branch near here I'm only just discovering in a book by a local historian, Marcel Hémery of the Societé Historique de Compiègne, a prolific author on archeological & historical matters concerning the region, esp the Vallée of the Aronde... (I live in Baugy/Monchy-Humières) about 10km north of Compiegne (royal residence from Louis XII onwards, intermittently) & I'm wondering if you found any record of the presence of the de Royes in your study, in this area? what else might you tell me about them?
I find, in the accounts of the founding of the Abbgey/Monestary of Monchy :
The lands for the project were purchased beginning of the 12th cent, from Bernier & Baudoin de Monchy, by Phillippe de Dreux, éveque de Beauvais, to found a colony of nuns at Monchy-le-Pierreux, with the accord of the Ordre de Citeaux... but building was neglected after his death in 1217 until the next Eveque de Beauvais, Rbt de Cressonsaca, found an able executor in the pious young Matthieu I de ROYE, seigneur du Chateau de Monchy, (where centuries later, Sir George Digby, one of my line, was quartered by Louis XIII, who gave him powers to raise an army to defend the city of Compiegne, apparently from Frondeurs come north from Paris to shake the king...) who brought the building into being abt 1237...
(the convent is linked to the chateau by a tunnel long by a km & wide enough for a carriage & four to drive through, probably dating from 15th cent & designed for rapid escape in case of siege, but primarily said to be used for extramarital trysting, many say the seigneurs of the chateau, in exchange for supporting the convent, had free access to the nuns as objects of pleasure, a duty they grudgingly but frequently acquiesced to as a noble martydom of sorts... according to local legend)
Letters of Monseigneur Jean dit Bernis, chanoine de St Pierre de Beauvais, dated June 1237, "le batistement de cette abbaye estoit déja fort avancé par les soings et diligence dudit seigneur MATTHIEU DE ROYE qui le dota l'année suivante de plusieurs terres et de revenus de son propre domaine." The charter of foundation is dated Jan 1238.
It seems it was such a nice monestary that the monks of Ourscamp were jealous & covetous of it, & inviting the nuns to Compiègne on a pretext, but them out, bag & baggage, squatting it themselves! this situation was officialized with the connivance of Ourscamp & de Roye, & continued two hundred years, until Louis de Crevant, favorite of Louis XIV de France, the sun-king, who had some sisters in the orders whom he wanted nearby, invited the few remaining monks to dinner at the chateau, & had an order of nuns invested in their place while they dined; returning late at night they found the locks changed & had to spend the night at the chateau, where the seigneur reminded them of their usurpation before sending them back to Ourscamp...
The name continues in the area, and in the month of mai 1239, Jehan de Thoule, chevalier, et Gobert, his elder son, had already given, for the salvation of their souls, an annuel "rente" of three muids of froment (flour) "by measure of Roye" (lots of local units of mesure have to be figured out by modern standards) to be taken from the grange de Thoule in the "faubourg de Roye"(the name of the place persists today).... I use the Route de Roye to get home from Compiègne...
Raoul de ROYE & Elizabeth, his wife, gave in 1246 a "liberalité" to the Abbaye of Monchy, consisting of 25 "journaux" (a day's work-worth)of land at Erches in the domaine of St Corneille of Compiègne (MOREL, Cartulaire de l'abbaye St Corneille de Compiègne.)
Colart de ROYE, chevalier, seigneur de Dury, près d'Amiens, with the consentment of his wife, Beatrix, gave that same year, 20 £ of Paris, in rentes, to be taken from the lands between Golancourt & Bronchy, for the reposs of his soul that of his brother (COET, loc cit, documents) while increasing the original donation by Matthieu de ROYE.
I find no further mention of the name de Roye in relation to this monestary & chateau...
****************************
Other seigneurs of Monchy were Belgian or married Belges, so it seems quite plausible that this be part of the line you're studying & I'd like to know more about them if possible... I found in a local history museum, among other artifacts, a gisant in marble to Jean de Humières & his belgian wife, Jeanne de Hangest, stone dated XVI century...
"ci giste noble et puissant seigneur Mgr Jean de Humières siegneur du dit lieu de Humières et de monchy le Perreux, conseilleur et chamellan du roi notre sire, bequet trépassa le dernier jour de juillet l'an 1334 et Madame Jeanne de Hangest, sa femme, laquelle trépassa le 21e jour de décembre de 1334. Priez Dieu pour eux."
**************************
I see from your post that I can find some data in Anselm, but the local library (Compiègne) has become difficult about consulting old documents there... they dont seem to like to see someone they consider a foreigner, enjoying acess & finding things of interest, for some reason... (ps: if there's something else you'd like looked up while Im there, tho, I'll give it a go for you, next time Im there; they have some amazing old registers of kings' courrier & palace notes, etc, aside from some old texts; their Anselm is incomplete, but there & they have things like Dom Mabillon, etc...)
You can query the Bibliotheque National de France directly by mail or email from their site about any documents they may have in their collection on anyone, even if not available online, which many are... they will at least tell you whether they have anything & what. Copies can probably be obtained but may be exorbitant for some things; you can also ask them to post things for download even if they are not yet posted; if they aren't yet numeric, you can request they be put into numeric files prioritarily, if you show them that you really need them for a study you're doing.
you may have an "attachment" appearing if you checked a box for adding a "calling card" or identifier to you mail
but the "clothespins" that Im finding on several posts are not the same as paperclips; a red diagonal mark I have never seen before & dont know the meaning of yet... but which doesnt seem to prevent responding...
********************************
Hope this helps,
Annie
----- Original Message -----
From: John P. DuLong
To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 1:28 AM
Subject: Re: Attention John P Dulong and Catherine Baillon
""Leo van de Pas"" <leov...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> Your e-mail has "a clothes-peg" attached to it, and wouldn't allow me
Denis Beauregard
<dul...@habitant.org> écrivait dans soc.genealogy.medieval:
>"Denis Beauregard" <spam-is-...@genealogie.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>> For your information, there is a copy of the Le Fort manuscript
>> in a faxsimile format (like a photocopied book) at SGCF, so your
>> colleagues in Montreal can check it any time.
>
>I would hope someone would check out Le Fort for de Roye and Dudzeele,
>another Flemish family in Catherine Baillon's ancestry. My Montréal
>colleagues are busy on other projects right now. So this is an opportunity
>for someone else to make a break through on Catherine Baillon's ancestry.
>You want to give it a try Denis?
Comment: The Le Fort papers are more or less sorted. While
the A are together, for example, they are not necessary in the
alphabetical order. Moreover, some families may have splitted to
give a separate family with another name, so it is quite easy to
miss a complete family.
ROYE: nothing. SGCF has up to vol. 15, which stops at RETHEL.
DUDZEELE: not found. Maybe I skipped it. There is no index to help.
GAVRE: vol. 7, pp 157-218
p. 186: Arnou de GAVRE
married to Jeanne de ROYE according to l'Espinay 1366 (year of wed?)
married to Marguerite de BEAUVOIS according to Voet.
Maybe he married twice !
his father Arnou:
married to Catherine de RODES according to Meyer
GHISTELLE:
vol. 7 p. 299: Roger de G,
married to Isabelle (and not Marguerite) de DUDZEELE-STRATEN
Denis
José Verheecke
> >
> >> For your information, there is a copy of the Le Fort manuscript
> >> in a faxsimile format (like a photocopied book) at SGCF, so your
> >> colleagues in Montreal can check it any time.
> >
> ROYE: nothing. SGCF has up to vol. 15, which stops at RETHEL.
>
> DUDZEELE: not found. Maybe I skipped it. There is no index to help.
>
Roye is not in Lefort vol.16(Renesse-Sandron)
(anyhow,as the Roye-family has nothing to do with Liège,
Lefort would only have copied what he'd found in Anselme)
--
José Verheecke
jose.ve...@pandora.be
John P. DuLong
pages from Le Fort. To bad de Roye and Dudzeele were not there. And thanks
José Verheecke for checking vol. 16.
I am at a loss where to look next. Warlop's excellent study of Flemish
nobles ends in 1300. Any other ideas for Franco-Flemish nobles?
Roger LeBlanc
Denis Beauregard wrote:
<snip>
> Comment: The Le Fort papers are more or less sorted. While
> the A are together, for example, they are not necessary in the
> alphabetical order. Moreover, some families may have splitted to
> give a separate family with another name, so it is quite easy to
> miss a complete family.
>
> ROYE: nothing. SGCF has up to vol. 15, which stops at RETHEL.
>
> DUDZEELE: not found. Maybe I skipped it. There is no index to help.
>
> GAVRE: vol. 7, pp 157-218
>
> p. 186: Arnou de GAVRE
> married to Jeanne de ROYE according to l'Espinay 1366 (year of wed?)
> married to Marguerite de BEAUVOIS according to Voet.
>
> Maybe he married twice !
>
> his father Arnou:
> married to Catherine de RODES according to Meyer
>
According to the "Table d'ascendance" Arnould III married Catherine de Rode, and
Arnould V married Jeanne de Roye. No spouse is shown for Arnould IV, so might
Marguerite de Beauvois be the missing wife in the intervening generation?