de Clare, de Stafford, de Audley, Beke, Swynnerton ekkkkkk!
The Thill Group, Inc.
Problem: The top 4 generations seem fine. Generation 5 is with the wrong
mother which causes the family group to go to King Henry I, instead of
Edward I. The person responsible for this group insists that the line is
correct and goes to Edward I.
When this person was questioned I was told the sources were:
The Magna Charta Sureties, 1215,
Adams-Weis
Pedigrees of Some of the Emperor Charlemagne's Descendants, V. i, von
Redlich, & V. 2 & 3 by other compilers, with these 3 volumes being the
lineage's from the Nat'l Soc. Desc. of Charlemagne; the line was approved
by Timothy Field Beard, noted in Medieval genealogy, former head of the NYC
pub lib gen. dept., a Fellow of the American Society of Genealogist
Lineage in Question:
1. Edward I, King of England b. 6/17/1239 m. Eleanor of Castile.
2. Princess Joan Plantagenet b. 1272 m. Sir Gilbert de Clare.
3. Margaret de Clare b. 1292 m. Hugh de Audley, Earl of Gloucester
This is where the problem comes in...
4. Margaret de Audley d. 9/17/1349 m. Sir Ralph de Stafford (Knight) b. 1299
Which is correct, but next generation is:
5. Jane De Stafford m. Sir Nicholas Beke (Knight)
I find that Jane de Stafford is actually the child of the other wife of Sir
Ralph de Stafford (2)Katherine Hastang.
And if that is true then the line goes up to Henry I, not to Edward (as it
would if Margaret de Audley was Jane's mother).
6. Elizabeth Beke m. Sir Robert Swynnerton d. ca. 1395
7. Maud Swynnerton b. ca 1370 m. Sir John Savage, Knight of Clifton.
8 Margaret Savage d. 1469. m. 1428 Sir John Dutton of Dutton d. 1443
Ellen Dutton d. 1466 m. Edward Langford (Longford), Esq. of Ruthen.
9. Janet Langford (Longford) born Denbigsline, Ruthen m. Simond Thelwall
Ok.. so my question is.. from generation 5 & 6 does anyone see a way that
this group goes up to Edward 1 as she says?
Below is the line as she has it.
(In the below listed generations I removed the 5 & 6 generations below
before displaying it above. They proved out to belong to another family
group not this one.)
Lineage as was given to me originally:
1. Edward 1, King of England b. 6/17/1239 d. 7/7/1307 m 10/18/1254 Eleanor
DePonthieu b. 1244 d. 11/24/1290
2. Child: Joan Plantagenet, Princess b. 1272 d. 4/23/1307 m. 4/30/1290 Sir
Gilbert DeClare b. 9/2/1243 d. 12/07/1295
3. Child: Margaret DeClare b. 10/1292 d. 9/16/1348 m. 4/28/1317 Hugh
DeAudley, Earl of Gloucester
4. Child: Margaret DeAudley b. abt 1325 d. 9/16/1348 m. bef 7/6/1336
RalphDeStafford, Knight b. 9/24/1301
5. Child: John DeStafford, Knight of Co. Stafford m. Margaret
6. Child: Ralph DeStafford, of Grafton to Worcester d. 8/31/1372 m. Maud
DeHastang b. 2/2/1358
7. Child: Jane DeStafford m. Sir Nicholas Beke, Knight
8. Child: Elizabeth Beke d. 1373 m. 1356 Robert DeSwinnerton (DeSwynnerton)
9. Child: Maud Matilda DeSwynnerton b. 1367 d. 1415 m. abt 1398 John Savage,
Knight b. abt 1370
10. Child: Margaret Savage b. abt 1387 d. 1469 m. 1418 Sir John Dutton, of
Dutton b. 1403 d. 1445
11. Child: Ellen Eleanor Dutton b. abt 1433 d. 1466 m Edward Richard
Langford, Sq. of Ruthen b. abt. 1431
12. Child: Janet Langford b. abt 1461 m. abt 1488 Simond Thelwal b. abt
1457
13. Child: Alice Thelwall b. 1488 m. abt 1509 Harri Wynne ap Cynric b. 1485
14. Child: John Wynne ap Harri b. abt 1510 d. 1572 m. Katherine Jenkins
Verch Ithel, daughter of Ithel
15. Child: Rees Ap John Wynne b. 1538 d. 1592 m. 1563
16. Child: John ap Rees b. 1570 d. 1640 m. 10/29/1588 Grace Morgan at
Bodfore Church
17. Child: Thomas ap John b. 12/20/1589 d. 1639 m. 1638
18. Child: Dr. Thomas Wynne b. 7/20/1627 d. 1/17/1692 m. bet 1655-1657
Martha Elizabeth Buttall b. 1627
HELP!!!! please.
Thanking you in advance for your concideration,
Becky T.
ttg...@home.com
Douglas Richardson
I researched the matter of your Nicholas de Beke's wife as part
of my work for the forthcoming book, Magna Carta Ancestry, which
book is scheduled for publication shortly by NEHGS in Boston.
There are two sources which mention Nicholas de Beke's wife's
identity. They are as follows:
1. 1580 Visitation of Cheshire, published in 1881, as Harleian
Society Publications, volume 18, page 201: "Sir Nicholas Beck =
Jane d. of Rafe L:Stafford & of Katherin Hastang"
2. 1580 Visitation of Cheshire, pg. 203: "Sir Nicho' Beck = ...
d[aughter] to the good Lord Stafford"
I understand that contemporary records elsewhere confirm that
Sir Nicholas Beke's wife was named Joan.
If the 1580 Visitation of Cheshire above is correct, then you
obviously lose the Plantagenet descent from Ralph de Stafford's
second wife, Margaret de Audley. Instead, as indicated above,
Joan, wife of Sir Nicholas de Beke, would be the child of Earl
Ralph's first wife, Katherine Hastang.
The following colonial immigrants descend from Sir Nicholas de
Beke and his wife, Joan. Immigrants listed below have one
descent each, unless noted otherwise.
1. Robert Abell (two descents)
2. Thomas Booth (two descents)
3. Thomas Bressey
4. Obadiah Bruen, of Conn. (two descents)
5. Rev. Peter Bulkeley, Elizabeth Bulkeley (wife of Richard
Whittingham), Martha Bulkeley (wife of Abraham Mellowes)
6. Alice, Agatha, Eleanor, Jane & Martha Eltonhead
7. Thomas Gerard
8. Olive Ingoldsby, wife of Rev. Thomas James
9. Oliver Manwaring (three descents)
10. Thomas Owsley
11. Elizabeth Saint John
12. Olive (Welby) Farwell
13. Amy Wyllys
For the specific descents from Sir Nicholas de Beke down to the
individual colonials, please consult the Magna Carta book when
available.
Best always, Douglas Richardson
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The Thill Group, Inc.
First and foremost I want to thank you for responding to my
"Beke" question, that was very kind.
I understand from your e-mail, as far as your aware, there is no possible
connection to Henry I, for Joan (Jane) de Stafford. (Glad to know
that I am not crazy, and can quit pounding my head against the wall.)
After answering that, you went on to give a list of colonial immigrants
from Sir Nicholas de Beke and his wife, Joan. This brings up another
question.
Question: Are you politely telling me, the below mentioned Dr. Thomas
Wynne was not related to the same Jane Joan de Stafford wife of Sir
Nicholas de Beke? If that is what your saying can you tell me, at what
generation there is a problem?
Dr. Thomas Wynne son of Thomas ap John ap Rees ap John Wynn,
of Bronvedog, in the parish of Yskeiviog, Flintshire (near Caerwys),
m. abt 1655-1567 (1) Martha Elizabeth Buttall b. 1627 d. 1670, child of
Samuel Randal Buttall of Wrexham, Denbighshire, Wales.
m. 20 5m 1676 in Painhill (Rainhill), Lancashire, England (2) Elizabeth
Croyley Maude (widow of Joshua Maude of the Cliffs) Rowden, b. 1637 of
Rainhill, Lancashire, England
The line as I find it:
6. Elizabeth Beke m. Sir Robert Swynnerton d. ca. 1395
7. Jane DeStafford m. Sir Nicholas Beke, Knight
8. Robert"Sir Robert DeSwynnerton, Knight" DeSwynnerton b: 1341 in
Swynnerton, Stafford, England d: Bef. November 12, 1385 in
Swynnerton, Stafford, England
+Elizabeth Beke b: Abt. 1355 in Eresby, Lincoln, Eng d: 1373 m: 1356
Father: Nicholas Beke Mother: Jane Joan DeStafford
9. Maud Matilda DeSwynnerton b. 1367 d. 1415 m. abt 1398 John Savage,
Knight b. abt 1370
10. Maud Matilda DeSwynnerton b: 1367 in Barrow, Cheshire, England
d: 1415
+Humphrey DePeshale
*2nd Husband of [1] Maud Matilda DeSwynnerton:
+William DeIpstones
*3rd Husband of [1] Maud Matilda DeSwynnerton:
+John"Sir John Savage, Knight" Savage b: Abt. 1370 in Clifton,
Sheshire, England d: August 01, 1450 in Clifton, Sheshire,
England m: Abt. 1398 Father: John Savage
Mother: Margaret Danyers
11. Ellen Eleanor Dutton b: Abt. 1433 in Dutton, Cheshire, England
d: 1466 in Cheshire, England
+Edward Richard Langford b: Abt. 1431 d: 1501
Father: Richard Langford
12. Janet Langford b: Abt. 1461 in Denbigaline, Ruthen
+Simon "Simon Thelwell" Thelwal b: Abt. 1457 m: Abt. 1488
Father: David Thelwall Mother: Tibot DeWeild
13. Alice "Alice Thelwell" Thelwell b: 1488 in Ysceifiog, Flintshire,
Wales
+Harri Wynne ap Cynric b: 1485 in Bronvedog, Yskeiviog, North
Wales m: Abt. 1509 in Ysceifiog, Flintshire, Wales
Father: Cynric ap Ithel Vychan Mother: Tanglwystl Lloyd
14. John Wynne ap Harri b: Abt. 1510 in Ysceifiog, Flintshire, Wales
d: 1572 in Upkeiviog
+Katherine Jenkins Verch Ithel b: Abt. 1563 in Ysceifiog,
Flintshire,
Wales. Father: Ithel ap Jenkin Howell
15. Rees ap John Wynne b: 1538 in Parish Yskeiviog, County of Flintshire,
North Wales d: 1592
+Mrs. Rees b: Abt. 1543 m: 1563 in Ysceifiog, Flintshire, Wales
16. John ap Rees b: 1570 in Ysceifiog, Flintshire, Wales
d: 1640 in Ysceifiog, Flintshire, Wales
+Grace Morgan m: October 29, 1588 in Bodfari,Ysceifiog,
Flintshire, Wales
17. Thomas ap John b: December 20, 1589 in Bodfari,Ysceifiog, Flintshire,
Wales d: 1639 in Ysceifiog, Flintshire, Wales
18. Thomas Wynne b: July 20, 1627 in Caerwys, Ysceifiog, Flintshire,
Wales. Emigration: From: Brouvadog near Caerwys in the County of
Flintshire, Wales
+Martha Elizabeth Buttall b: 1627 in Clwyd, Wrexham, Denbighshire,
Wales d: 1670 in Wales m: Bet. 1655 - 1657 in Wrexham, Flintshire,
Wales. Father: Samuel Randal Buttall
*2nd Wife of [4] Thomas Wynne:
+Elizabeth "Elizabeth Rawden Maude of Rainhill" Croyley b: 1637 in
Rainhill, Lancashire, England d: Aft. March 17, 1692/93
m: May 20, 1676 in Rainhill, Lancashire, England
Also, is there an approximate purchase price on the "Magna Carta Ancestry"
book that you mentioned?
Thanking you in advance for your consideration.
Best always,
Becky T
ttg...@home.com
Peter Sutton
I have set out below some additional references to Sir Nicholas de Bek.
There appears to remain considerable uncertainty as to whom he was married.
I wonder if anyone has an answer to the following questions:
1. Is there any evidence that Ralph de Stafford, 1st Earl of Stafford had a
daughter called Jane by either of his two wives?
2. Was there a Joan de Stafford, daughter of the above and Margaret de
Audley, who was married to Gilbert, Baron Talbot?
Contemporary records show Sir Nicholas was certainly married to someone
called Joan who was alive in 1348 and these records apparently do not
disclose her surname.
Sir Nicholas de Bek is descended from Sir Robert de Draycote alias Bek of
Hopton and Tean, the eldest son of Sir Richard de Draycott (d. abt 1321) and
his wife Lettice de Bek daughter and heiress of Robert de Bek, of Tean. She
was dead by 1292 but had been married to Sir Richard de Draycott as early as
7 Edward I (1279-80). They had issue (among others):
Sir Robert de Draycote alias Bek of Hopton and Tean, knight. He was
undoubtedly the heir of his mother, and it was probably settled at his birth
that, as he would succeed to her estate, he should assume her surname. He
was the eldest son of his father and seems to have come to age in about
1292. In 1295 Robert sued his father Sir Richard, mainly to do with Tene
and the advowson of Checkley church. Their quarrels and court cases seemed
to have continued off and on for the remainder of Sir Richard’s life.
Robert de Bek evidently served in the campaign of 1318, against the Scots,
and was in the retinue of Thomas Earl of Lancaster. In 1324 he was summoned
from Staffordshire to attend at Westminster to consult with the King
‘respecting various important and difficult matters’. He was married to
Matilda de Hertwalle. He died about 1330 and had issue:
Sir Robert de Bek. He was summoned on Christmas Eve 1334 from Roxhurgh to
attend there on 2nd February for military service. He was dead by Easter
1346. He was married to Mariota. He had issue:
Sir Nicholas de Bek MP. He served in the Crecy campaign and he took part in
the siege of Calais, 1347. In 1361 Prince Lionel of Clarence was appointed
Lieutenant of Ireland, and was accompanied there by a body of men-at-arms
commanded by Ralph Earl of Stafford and others. Nicholas de Bek was a
knight in the Earl’s retinue. He was married to Joan. He died in about
1369 which brought to an end the male line of these de Beks who were in fact
de Draycotes. He had issue two daughters and co-heiresses:
1. Elizabeth de Beek. Married to Sir Robert de Swynnerton, knight.
2. Margaret who died without issue.
The Draycott family and also de Bek are discussed in some detail in Volume
1925 of the Collection for a History of Staffordshire published by the
Willam Salt Society under "Notes on Staffordshire Families". Sir Nicholas
de Beek died in 1369. According to the HCS 1925 p. 109 it states from a
suit at Stafford Assizes in July, 1402, we learn definitely that he was the
son of Mary (otherwise Mariota) de Bek, and that he himself married a wife
named Joan; while from a suit also heard at Stafford in August, 1408 we know
that he and Joan were both living at Lady day, 1348 (SHC XV, pages 114 and
122 Plea Rolls 1387-1405). Volume 1925 appears to be the most accurate
regarding the Draycott family that I have seen to date.
However, there are other references to Sir Nicholas de Beek which I have
seen. HCS Volume XII (NS) Chetwynds History of Pirehill Hundred (Part1)
gives an account of the Manor of Hopton. On page 140 there is a pedigree
which shows "Nicholas de Bek,kt. (21 Ed. III. ob 45 Ed. III). = Joan".
However, later on page 144 there is another pedigree which shows "Nic. de
Beke, mil. 20 and 43 E.III = Margeria".
These are the only sources I have seen however as Sir Nicholas represented
Staffordshire in Parliament he must be covered by Wedgewood's History of
Parliament. There is also a footnote to page 141 of Chetwynd's History of
Pirehill Hundred which says "A plea of 20 Ed. I (Vol VI, p. 209) throws much
light on the Beck pedigree, which is continued by the Plea Roll of 2 H. IV
(Vol XV, p. 114), and those of 4 H.IV (Vol XVI, p. 40) and (Vol. XVII, pp.
96-8) of 2 H. VI., which are too lengthy for insertion here, though
interesting in enabling us to trace the family history and to understand the
difficulties which beset heiresses in those days."
As to Ralph de Stafford's children by Katherine de Hastang I have not seen
any direct evidence that there were any other Children from this marriage
apart from Margaret. There certainly were no males who lived to adulthood.
As I understand it by his second marriage to Margaret de Audley there was a
daughter Joan whom I understand married Gilbert, Baron Talbot. Indeed all
his daughters from this second marriage appear to have married into the
nobility.
Sir John de Stafford (son of Sir William de Stafford and Isabel de Stafford)
was certainly married twice his first wife being Elizabeth de Somerville
daughter and in her issue coheir of Sir Philip de Somerville (d. 1355).
There was one child of this marriage Maud or Matilda de Stafford born about
1328. After the death of Elizabeth which was certainly before 1355, Sir
John de Stafford definitely married Margaret de Stafford daughter of Ralph
Earl of Stafford and Katherine de Hastang. It should be noted that they
were related being 2nd cousins once removed.
Regards
Peter Sutton
> -----Original Message-----
> From: use...@rootsweb.com [mailto:use...@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of
> Douglas Richardson
> Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2000 09:43
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: de Clare, de Stafford, de Audley, Beke, Swynnerton ekkkkkk!
>
>
Douglas Richardson
I have no knowledge of your colonial ancestor, Dr. Thomas
Wynne. As such, I did not deliberately exclude him from my list
of colonists who descend from Sir Nicholas de Beke.
As for the identity of Sir Nicholas de Beke's wife, Joan, the
current draft of the Magna Carta Ancestry book states that his
wife was "Joan, said to be daughter of Ralph de Stafford, lst
Earl of Stafford." The terminology "said to be" or "it is said"
reflects that Joan is identified as the Earl's daughter in an
existing visitation record, which visitation has not been
confirmed by contemporary records. In this instance, her given
name has been confirmed by contemporary records, but not her
parentage.
All for now. Best always, Douglas Richardson
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
ttg...@home.com (The Thill Group, Inc.) wrote:
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