Cardinan barony
Jay....@dartmouth.edu
Sanders. Does anyone know if the Turolf who fathered Richard would be
the same as Torold, Sheriff of Lincoln, d. 1085? I dont have "Domesday
People" or "Descendants" available to me to check if K-R has anything to
say on that. Also, does anyone have information on spouses for the
first five generations? Many thanks,
Jay
(1) Richard Fitz Turolf de Cardinan1 ( - >1106)
(2) William Fitz Richard de Cardinan1 ( - >1130)
(3) Robert Fitz William de Cardinan1 ( - ~1177)
(4) Robert de Cardinan2,1,3 ( - ~1230)
(5) Andrew de Cardinan1 ( - ~1252)
(6) Isolda de Cardinan*1
& Thomas de Tracy1
(6) Isolda de Cardinan*1
& William de Ferrers1 ( - >1301)
(5) Robert de Cardinan3 ( - >1251)
& Emma _____
(6) Emma de Cardinan3
& Odo de Treverbyn3 (1230 - 1253)
Sources
1. Sanders, English Baronies, A Study of Their Origin and Descent
1086-1327, (Oxford University Press, 1960).
3. Sir John MacLean F.S.A., The Parochial and Family History of Trigg
Minor in the County of Cornwall, (London, 1873).
Jay....@dartmouth.edu
Sanders P. 110 says,
"ISOLDA m. firstly, Thomas de Tracy d. 1263-70. She married secondly
William de Ferrers and was living in 1301. [6] Some time before 1270
Isolda granted her manors away. Cardinham and Bodardle were given to
Oliver de Dinham, lord of Hartland, Devon. [7] Oliver d. 1299 leaving
Josce d. 1301. John, s. and h., came of age 1316 and d. 1332. [8]
[6] Cornwall Feet of Fines, nos. 171, 188, 222. William was probaly son
of Reginald de Ferrers d. 1306 of Shillingham, Cornwall, and Newton
Ferrers, Devon. (CIPM iv, no. 362)
[7] Rot. Hund. i, pp 56, 57. In 1270 Hugh de Trverbyn, son of Odo by
Emma, da. of Andrew de Cardinan, disputed the claims of Oliver de Dinham
but he lost the case (Cornwall Feet of Fines, nos. 56, 142, 220, 241).
It is stated in Rot. Hund. loc. cit. that Isolda held two baronies, -
Cardinham and Bodardle. This may be explained by the fact that in 1166
Rpbert Fitz William distinguished between two estates.
[8] CIPM iii, no. 532; idem, iv, no. 44; CFR iv, p. 310."
What were the sources of the names of the Cardinan spouse? Thanks
again,
Jay
--- "Ivor West" wrote:
Jay,
I'm not sure that Turolf has been positively identified.
The wives are said to be:
(1) a sister of Robert de Beauchamp of Hatch
(2) Annora de Mandeville
(3) Agnes de la Haie
(4) Isabella fitz William
(5) Ela (Helen) ______
In return, as you seem to have Sanders handy, can you tell me what
exactly he says, if he does, about Isolda having two sons, and by
whom, and she living to c.1302?
Ivor West
--- end of quote ---
Ivor West
sons of Isolda. On checking my notes, I see that H. R. Watkin did. His
History of Totnes Priory and Medieval Town, ii, 1011 - 1021, was the
source for the Cardinan wives.
I'm not sure, myself, about a sister of Robert de Beauchamp being the
wife of Richard fitz Turolf - the Beauchamp sister seems to belong to
the generation of Richard's grandchildren, that is, as the wife of
Richard fitzWilliam, Sheriff of Cornwall 1207, younger brother of
Robert fitzWilliam (3). That would make her Matilda fizIve, sister of
Robert de Beauchamp (c.1130-c.1190). A wife for a Domesday tenant like
Richard fitz Turolf would seem to require her to be a sister of the
progenitor of the Beauchamps of Hatch, Robert fitz Ivo, Constable of
Robert, Count of Mortain.
Ivor West
<Jay....@Dartmouth.EDU> wrote in message
news:3D8E1F14...@dartmouth.edu...
Jay Cary
Yesterday I happened upon a recent publication by the Devon and
Cornwall Record Society, entitled "The Cornish Lands of the Arundells of
Lanherne, Fourteenth to Sixteenth Centuries", H S A FOX and O J PADEL
eds. The editors state that the last of the Cardinan line, Isolda de
Cardinan died s.p., but before her death she sold her properties three
separate people, one of whom was Oliver Dinham. They claim that there is
no known kinship between the Cardinan and Dinham families and do not
mention any third husband of Isolda. Rather than type in the text of the
pages and references, I put the relevant page images on-line temporarily
at:
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~jac/xxvii.JPG
and
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~jac/xxviii.JPG
Jay
The...@aol.com
Dear Jay, Ivor, et al.,
The transfer of the manors of Cardinham and Bodardle, Cornwall from Isolda de Cardinham to the Dinhams is one of those mysteries for which an exact and detailed explanation has not yet been reached; the pieces are certainly tantalizing. Jay, thanks for posting the URL for the scanned pages you referenced - perhaps they and the references noted will help in finding The Solution.
There was a thread earlier this year, <Re: Grenville of Kilkhampton: a Dinham Connection?> that Ivor, Louise Staley and I participated in; also, Rosie Bevan has also lent her insight. Isolda de Cardinham is shown is some databases [not mine] as a wife of Oliver de Dinham, to whom these lands were transferred or sold, but if this relationship was correct an explanation for the transfer is needed.
A piece of evidence I found is part of the puzzle, and not yet the key piece I first held it to be. As I cited in the above-mentioned thread on 30 May 2002, from Eyton's Antiquities of Shropshire, Vol. 5, there is the
following extract from a fine on page 288:
' By Fine of Nov. 3, 1276, Richard son of Geoffrey de
Dynan, and Isolda Richard's wife, enfeoff Hugh le Tanur,
in a messuage in Ludlow, for eight marks paid down, and
a rent of one Rose, reserved to the Grantors and the
heirs of Isolda. '
This clearly links an Isolda (presumably de Cardinham) to one gentleman, de Dynan or de Dinham (stated to be Richard son of Geoffrey; possibly, Oliver son of Geoffrey ?). While it has nothing to do with the manors in Cornwall, this needs to be explained in connection with the tenure of Cardinham and Bodardle.
Good luck, and good hunting.
John *
* John P. Ravilious
Jay Cary
I re-read the Grenville/Dinham thread from last June, but I still don't understand the importance of the fine you discovered - was this property known to be part of Isolda de Cardinan's, or was Hugh le Tanur connected with the Cardinan family? I must be missing something. Thanks,
Jay
Ivor West
Thank you, Jay, for taking the trouble to post the Cardinham extracts
from Fox and Padel.
Watkin derived most of the Cardinham pedigree, contained in vol. 2 of
his History of Totnes, from charters in Oliver's Monasticon Diocensis
Exoniensis and Yeatman's History of Arundell.
Perhaps I should point out that the pedigree, which you will find on
p.1012, contains an error in that Watkin shows Robert, son of Robert
fitz William and Agnes Hay, married to Isabel, whereas Isabel was his
sister. Her brother Robert fiz Robert died s.p. It was Robert de
Cardinham whom she married. That is how the fees of Richard fitz
Turold and Thurstan the Sheriff (the de la Haye progenitor) passed
from fitzWilliam to Cardinham.
Robert seems to be the first to use the name Cardinham and, as your
extract relates, he gave it to the place called Thersent, held by
Richard fitz Turold in DB, which Picken showed to be Trezance, now a
farmstead in Cardinham parish. Robert's ancestry is fairly obscure. I
have my own pet theory about it which I won't bother you with at the
moment.
Watkin said that Isolda de Cardinham had two sons, Reginald and Hugh,
by her second husband, William de Ferrers. If so, then she would seem
to have inadvertently stripped them of their inheritance when she
alienated her lands after the death of her first husband. It seems
unlikely, in any case, as her first husband Thomas de Tracy died c1267
and Reginald was patron of Bere Ferrers by 1279.
Watkin also says that his source for Isolda's death in 1301 came from
H. H. Drake's, History of St. Finbarrus, Fowey, but, if you track down
a copy, you will search there in vain. Drake, in any case, would need
to have a primary source himself. Perhaps, it was somewhere in William
Pole's MS collections.
If Isolda had any children, it would seem a more likely speculation
that she had two daughters by her first husband Thomas de Tracy, and
that they married Champernoun and Dinham. If the supposed daughters
were called Joan, Matilda, Isolda or Eva, it might account for the
various speculations on these names and the granting of Cardinham
lands to Dinham and Champernoun. You could then choose between Joan
Benson), Matilda (Pole) or Eva (Vivian, although he calls her coheir
and cognata, not filia) as a wife for William de Champernoun, and
Isolda[II] as a mother, of a more suitable age than her own mother,
for Josce Dinham ( Isolda [I] and Isabel de Vere seem too old for the
role).
On the other hand, Isolda's granting away of her lands may have no
genealogical connotations at all, especially if she were the last of
her line. In fact, it may be better to look at the historical context
of her times.
The grants took place after the death of Thomas de Tracy which
occurred shortly after the Barons' War. During the conflict, Tracy
placed Restormel castle in the hands of Ralph de Arundell. After the
war, Richard of Cornwall is said to have exerted himself to obtain
reasonable terms for the opponents of the royalist party. Perhaps he
made an exception to that stance for those operating in his own
earldom. His acquisition from Isolda, for nothing, of Restormel
castle, the town of Lostwithiel, and the river Fowey, in 1268, and of
Trematon castle and the river Tamar from the Roger Valletort, for a
song, in 1270, smacks more than a little of coercion - the Pomeroy and
Corbet heirs of Roger (or Ralph) Valletort later brought a suit
claiming that he must have been non compos mentis at the time of the
grant. It certainly seems to have been a determined attempt to break
up the larger baronies of Cornwall.
Although Arundell and Tracy were apparently on the side of Simon de
Montfort, Dinham and Champernoun were royalist supporters (Henry de
Champernoun held the third Cornish stronghold, Launceston castle, in
1265). After Earl Richard had taken his slice of the Cardinham cake,
Dinham and Champernoun seemingly had theirs in 1270. For a fuller
discussion of this viewpoint and the relationship between the
beknighted denizens of that benighted medieval county and its alien
earls see Mark Page's article, "Cornwall, Earl Richard, and the
Barons' War" in the English Historical Review, February, 2000.
For those who haven't come across Thomas de Tracy's letter, in Yeatman
or Polwhele, concerning his position in the Barons' War, it is
appended here from Page's article. This transcription and translation
are by Dr. Oliver Padel. The notes at the end are Page's. Tracy seems
to be trying to play both ends against the middle and perhaps the
"adequate recompense" Tracy refers to, Earl Richard decided to take as
the wholesale carving up of the Cardinham barony. As it turned out,
Tracy's castle was "entered" by Richard and his barony did end up
"destroyed as much as possible". Perhaps, as he did not survive these
events, Tracy's position, in one way or another, also cost him his
life.
Ivor West
(1.) CRO, AR 22/2; J. P. Yeatman, The Early Genealogical History of
the House of Arundel (London, 1882), facsimile, no. 34; J. R.
Maddicott, Simon de Montfort (Cambridge, 1994), p. 310.
`Omnibus Christi fidelibus has literas visuris vel audituris dominus
Thomas de Tracy salutem in domino: noverit universitas vestra quod
dominus Rad' de Arundell de consensu et peticione nostra cepit castrum
nostrum de Rostormel cum pertin' suis cum tota baronia nostra de
Kardinan cum pertin' suis in manu domini Symonis de Monte Forti
comitis Leyc' et sen' Anglie ..., ut [e]uitarem periculum et dampna
inimicorum meorum q[u]i dictum castrum ingredi volebant et dictam
baroniam meam pro posse s[u]o destruere, et etiam dictum castrum cum
dicta baronia in manu dicti comitis remanere quousque si in aliquo
deliqui domino regi vel dicto domino S. de Monte Forti satisfaciam
competenter. In cuius rei testimonium literas meas sigillo meo
signatas fieri feci [paten]tes. Dat' apud Rostormel die dominica
proxima post festum Apostolorum Petri et Pauli anno R. R. xlix'.
`Sir Ralph Arundel has, with our agreement and at our request, taken
our castle of Restormel with its appurtenances, along with all our
barony of Cardinan with its appurtenances, into the hands of Simon de
Montfort, Earl of Leicester and steward of England, in order that I
may avoid the danger and damages of my enemies, who wished to enter
the castle, to destroy my barony as much as possible, and for that
castle and the barony to remain in the Earl's hands until I should
make adequate recompense if I have harmed the lord king or Simon de
Montfort in any respect'.
(1) This is perhaps the most intriguing document to have been produced
in Cornwall during the thirteenth century. It was issued at a time
when Montfort's power was on the wane and the battle of Evesham only a
month away.
(2) It is unclear who Thomas de Tracy's enemies were and why they were
trying to destroy his lands and castle. Nevertheless, the document
offers us a tantalizing glimpse of the tensions and rivalries created
by the Barons' War in the far south-west of England.
The...@aol.com
Dear Ivor,
The theory that a daughter (Isolda 'II') was married to the man (de Dinham) who had received the manors of Cardinham and Bodardle is intriguing, and certainly would provide a better 'fit' - certainly fewer spouses (de Dinham, Ferrers & c.) requiring a refit.
I look forward to rereading these threads later tonight, as well as the feedback that hopefully will be forthcoming.
Cheers,
Sutliff
wife of Oliver de Treverbyn, was daughter of Andrew and presumably sister or
half-sister of Isolda, does the MacLean source make her a daughter of Robert
as this reconstruction shows?
Thanks,
Henry Sutliff
<Jay....@dartmouth.edu> wrote in message
news:3D8CC024...@dartmouth.edu...
Ivor West
Cardinham and Emma.
The confusion about this seems to go back to Cal.Inq., iv, 82, the
writ of diem clausit extremum concerning Andrew de Solenny and of
plenius certiorari concerning Walter de Treverbyn. The inquisition has
been mentioned several times on this list before but not in this
particular connection.
In the inquisition, Emma is called the daughter and heir of
Iseult de Soligny and mother of Hugh, father of Walter de Treverbyn.
But it is clear from certain fines that a generation has been omitted.
If Sanders has called Emma the daughter of Andrew de Cardinham, it
must be an error, as Emma would then have been co-heir with Isolda to
the honours of Bodardel and Cardinan.
Perhaps because he was aware of this, MacLean in "History of the
Deanery of Trigg Minor" introduced another Emma, as the wife of Walter
de Treverbyn, father of Otto who married the Emma of the writ.
MacLean also correctly shows, in the same generation, another Emma as
the wife of Robert de Cardinan, younger brother of Andrew. MacLean
does not seem to give any evidence for Iseult's daughter, Emma, being
the wife of Walter de Treverbyn. She might equally have been the Emma
who was the wife of Robert de Cardinham. The Soligny Faweton pourparty
of the writ would pass to the Treverbyns by either route.
The introduction of another Emma causes Iseult de Suligny to be set
back a generation from that of Andrew de Cardinham and displaces her
as his putative wife, but that is quite in order, as Andrew's wife is
clearly shown in fines and elsewhere as Ela, not Iseult.
The actual Cardinan-Treverbyn relationships can be seen in Cornwall
fine no. 241 of 1234, in which Odo de Treverbyn and his wife Emma are
plaintiffs against Andrew de Kardinan concerning the dower lands of
Emma, wife of Robert [this might be clearer to understand if he is
read as Robert II de Kardinan]. Odo and his wife Emma acknowledged
that the lands which were Robert [I] de Kardinan's, father of Andrew
and grandfather of Emma, were also those lands of Robert [II], father
of Emma, and were the right of Andrew.
From this it can be seen that the Emma mentioned in the inquisition
(i.e., married to Odo) was the daughter of Robert not of his brother
Andrew. If the inquisition had recorded correctly that Emma (II) was
the daughter of Iseult, it would mean that Robert had firstly married
Iseult and secondly Emma (I) if the inquisition is consonant with the
fines. However, the chronology of the Champernouns seems to suggest
that Iseult de Suligny and her sister, Emma, belong to the earlier
generation.
Cornwall fine no.56 of 1234, is further confirmation of these
relationships. It has Emma [I], wife of Robert [I] de Kardinan,
claiming against Andrew [ her brother-in-law] for an exchange of her
dower lands of East Allington and Woodhuish, and which Odo de
Treverbyn and his wife Emma [II] were claiming in turn against her,
Emma [I]. Andrew exchanged Emma [I]'s Devon dower lands for the
Cornish lands of Penhallam, Trevisquite, Penventinue, Cuttivett, and
Prideaux-in-Luxulyan together with the services of Richard de
Prideaux. Andrew is the deforciant in these fines and it seems that
the lands of Andrew's younger brother, Robert, reverted to Andrew.
This is one of those examples where the recollections of deponents,
even in an inquisition that is supposed to be fully informative
(plenius certiorari), do not quite measure up to the evidence of the
fines. An inquisition may not be holy writ but the details of final
concords come pretty close.
Ivor West.
Hap Sutliff wrote:
...
| As your subsequent post shows the footnote in Sanders (110 [7]) that
| Emma, wife of Oliver de Treverbyn, was daughter of Andrew and
| presumably sister or half-sister of Isolda, does the MacLean source
| make her a daughter of Robert as this reconstruction shows?
Jay Cary posted:
Sutliff
daughter so it looks as if this is one that should be added as a Sanders
correction.
One of the PROSOPON issues on the Linacre site contained corrections to
Sanders, but I do not recall this being one of them. Many thanks again.
HS
"Ivor West" <i...@freeuk.com> wrote in message
news:103382205...@doris.uk.clara.net...
The...@aol.com
Dear Ivor, Hap, et al.,
I must agree with Hap (I usually do), that this was a most helpful post,
and will go a long way to helping to clean up the Cardinham situation that
has been Bodardled for so long.
The issue of Prosopon that detailed a number of corrections to Sanders was
No. 11 (July 2000); this can be accessed online at
http://www.linacre.ox.ac.uk/research/prosop/Prosopon11.doc
Ivor, there was reference made (by you, as I recall) to the case brought
by Hugh de Treverbyn against Oliver de Dinham, concerning the possession of
Cardinham and Bodardle. Is it possible that the actual text of that suit is
accessible? This may not help in adding to our present knowledge as to the
acquisition of those manors from Isolda de Cardinham by Oliver de Dinham,
but, who knows...
Again, many thanks for the added documentation and insight.
Jay....@dartmouth.edu
more to my thinking and somewhat to my personal confusion. Some of my
confusion stems from the fact that MacLean shows that both Walter de
Treverbyn and Odo de Treverbyn both had sons named Hugh. Just to be
clear then, you would place Iseult de Soligny as the mother of Emma
______, wife of Robert de Cardinan (d. aft 1251), i.e. grandmother of
the Emma mentioned in the inquisition (iv:82), rather than mother?
Would you have any candidates as the husband of Isolda de Soligny and
the father of the Emma of the inquisition? Many thanks again,
Jay Cary
Ivor West
Emma, daughter of Iseult de Suligny, in order to account for Suligny
land at Faweton ending up in Treverbyn hands but, as I said, this Emma
could equally be Robert de Cardinham's wife, Emma. She would then
bring Faweton to him from Iseult. His own daughter, Emma, would then
take it to Odo de Treverbyn. That would make Iseult de Suligny
grandmother of Emma, wife of Odo. If I were to choose, I'd plump for
this line only because we know Robert had a wife called Emma but I
don't think we are sure about Walter de Treverbyn.
The only candidate that I have seen put forward for Iseult de
Suligny's husband is Richard Prideaux, proposed by Hylton in his
History of Kilmersdon, but I don't recall that he named a source. The
chronology suggests that he must be referring to Richard de Prideaux
who witnessed a charter of Robert de Cardinham to Lostwithiel in 1186.
Neither MacLean nor R. M. Prideaux' history of the Prideaux mention
the connection.
Ivor West
heir would have been the representative of her uncle, Robert de
Cardinham, younger brother of her father, Andrew. His son Hugh was
mentioned in a fine for an exchange of lands but seems to have faded
from the picture, presumably died s.p. Next in line would have been
Robert's daughter, Emma, who married Odo de Treverbyn, and her son,
Hugh de Treverbyn.
Hugh de Treverbyn is found in 1270 (Cornwall fine no.222)
quit-claiming, for 300 marks, Trevolonan, Tywardreath, Ludevon
(Ludgvan) and Penalym to Henry de Champernoun, lands which Henry had
just received from Isolda de Cardinham "on the day this concord was
made." Also, at the same court, in Cornwall fine no.220, Hugh de
Treverbyn quit-claimed Cardinham and Bodardel to Oliver de Dinham for
one sore goshawk. By quit-claiming to both Champernoun and Dinham he
was bidding farewell, as prospective right heir, to practically his
last hold on the better part of 71 fees. Perhaps, if this were all
part and parcel of Earl Richard's post-Barons' war reparations, like
Isolda, and maybe Roger de Valletort too, he saw it as an offer he
couldn't refuse.
In the same year, 1270, in Devon fine 715, William de Ferrers, husband
number two, and Isolda quit-claimed Fuge, Strete and Burlestone to
Hugh de Treverbyn for one sore goshawk (that sore goshawk was sure
sore after being passed around from hand to hand), small enough
recompense for the loss of his expected inheritance of Cardinham.
Andrew de Cardinham had also previously granted to Odo and Emma lands
in Shilston, Bolbury and Little Modbury. So Hugh's remnant of Isolda's
lands seem restricted to Devon.
Incidentally, the fact that Hugh de Treverbyn's line carried on (and
eventually through Dauney to Courtenay) shows that there could not
have been a female co-heir of Isolda - called Eva by Vivian.
Four years later after Isolda had resigned Restormel to him, Earl
Richard was dead and four years after that, in 1276, Edward I caused
an inquisition to be made into the revenues of the earldom of
Cornwall. From the jury of the hundred of Westwevilshire we learn of
the redistribution of Cardinham (as given by F. M. Hext in
"Lostwithiel and Restormel"). Things to note are that Isolda is sole
heir and Oliver de Dinham is not given any special mention compared to
the others. He is mentioned first, of course, ahead of Earl Richard,
but presumably that was because he had the lion's share (the lion of
Poitou perhaps not wanting to seem too grasping ) and the conspicuous
absence of anything granted in Cornwall to her right heir, Hugh de
Treverbyn. It makes you wonder what Hugh did in the war. He was the
real loser, not Isolda.
"Also they say that Andrew de Cardinan held the Barony of Cardinan
with the appurtenances, in chief of the Lord King Henry, father of the
now King, by the service of Seventy-one fees, whence the same Barony
descended to Isolda, the daughter of the said Andrew, as by hereditary
right - whereupon the said Isolda gave to Oliver de Dinan the Manors
of Cardinan and Bodardel to hold of Richard, Earl of Cornwall, and he
now holds of Edmund his son. And the same Isolda gave to Richard, Earl
of Cornwall, Lestormel [Restormel], Lostwithiel, and Trebeneth, with
all the water of the Fowe. And Edmund, son of the same, now holds
them. Also the aforesaid Isolda gave to Henry Chambernon the Manor
of Lodvan [Ludgvan] and Tywardreath, with the appurtenances [to hold]
of the said Richard, and he now holds of Edmund, Earl of Cornwall.
Also they say that Henry de la Pomeraye holds Restronget; Stephen
Heyn [Heym], Trevisit [Trevisquite]; John de Bello-Prato (now
Beauchamp) [recte, Beaupré], Penhalia [Penhallym]; Roger de
Prid[eaux], two parts of the Manor of Bodwydgie; and Philip de
Bodrigan, the third part of the Manor aforesaid of the gift of the
aforesaid Isolda, and he now holds it of Edmund, Earl of Cornwall."
The jury of Powdershire, returned substantially the same
redistribution of Cardinham but in addition returned Mauger de
St.Albin as holding Argolles [Argallas].
Stephen Heym and John Beaupré were Stewards and Sheriffs of Cornwall
in the time of Earl Richard. How many more were Earl Richard's men, I
don't know, but the holdings they received were relatively small.
Ivor West
Louise Staley
I put this together a few days ago and sent an earlier version to John. I
have now updated it for that latest information posted by Ivor. As usual it
seems to raise more questions than answers.
My personal theory is that a key question revolves around Isolda Cardinham's
age. She is said (by whom?) to have been born around 1235. It appears to me
to be unusual that she is an heiress to a massive estate yet apparently does
not marry until after her father's death, aged 20. When did her mother die,
was it before 1253 when her father died? If her mother was already dead by
the time her father died it is possible that the answer to why she married
late lies in her personal attributes. Perhaps she was handicapped in some
way and once her parents were dead she was just a prize waiting to be
picked, unfortunately for Thomas Tracy he died without heirs from Isolda.
Then Isolda is coerced or "persuaded" into selling or giving away all her
land while a widow. If Isolda was already remarried to William Ferrers by
the time of the land disposals, (is he mentioned?) why didn't he have any
say in this?
regards
Louise
P.S. what is a "sore goshawk?"
Timeline
1227 Andrew Cardinham has possession of his estates on the death of his
father (see http://homepages.tesco.net/~k.wasley/Restormel.htm) (This would
mean he was born before 1206)
1235 Isolda Cardinham born (source?)
1253 Andrew Cardinham dies around this time and Isolda inherits. (Why wasn't
she married yet if she was the sole heiress to a vast estate? If she was
underage did her mother hold her wardship? Are the IPMs of Andrew Cardinham
or Ela ? Cardinham extant?) (Query here about the identity of Andrew
Cardinham's wife, if Isolda de Soligny was the generation before Andrew
Cardinham how does this fit with Isolda's brother dying in 1265? see below)
1255 Isolda apparently aged 20 marries Thomas Tracy (source?)
1258 Reginald Ferrers, son of William Ferrers and presumably Mabel his first
wife born on or before this date as he was patron of Bere Ferrers by 1279.
1263 Thomas de Tracy and Isolda are deforciants of Argallas to Henry de
Tracy. The fine says "should Isolda have an heir of her body the said land
shall revert to that heir." So as Ivor West points out, at that point they
were childless and any subsequent daughter cannot be the mother of Josce de
Dinham born in 1275.
1264 Thomas de Tracy surrenders Restormel Castle in Cornwall, part of the
manor of Bodardle.
1265 Geoffrey de Suleny dies. Is IPM states "His heirs are unknown to the
jury, but he had sisters, some of whom were married in Cornwall and some in
Brittany." (CIPM, 1: 629). Ronny Bodine in 1999 said "The sisters, as per
CIPM, 4: no. 82 were Iseult de Sulenny (aka Isolda de Soligny) and Emma de
Sulenny (aka Emma de Soligny). This latter IPM was actually concerned with
the manor of Faweton, co. Cornwall, originally held by Andrew and then
Geoffrey, which manor evolved to the heirs of Geoffrey's sisters, as both
were dead." I assume this means Isolda and Emma were dead by 1265.
1265 Declaration by Thomas de Tracy that Sir Ralph Arundel seized Restormel
from Simon de Montfort (Arundel Archives quoted by
http://homepages.tesco.net/~k.wasley/Restormel.htm)
1266 Thomas Tracy presents as patron of St Mabyn
1267 Thomas Tracy dies between 1266 and 1268
1268 Isolda sells or gives away land. (The exact dates and detail of these
transactions needs to be ascertained. They are referred to as occurring
between 1268 and 1270)
Ivor West suggests there may have been no genealogical reason for her
choice. "Although Arundell and Tracy were apparently on the side of Simon de
Montfort, Dinham and Champernoun were royalist supporters... After Earl
Richard had taken his slice of the Cardinham cake, Dinham and Champernoun
seemingly had theirs in 1270. For a fuller discussion of this viewpoint and
the relationship between the beknighted denizens of that benighted medieval
county and its alien earls see Mark Page's article, "Cornwall, Earl Richard,
and the Barons' War" in the English Historical Review, February, 2000."
Isolda Cardinham transfers Restormel Castle to Richard, earl of Cornwall
(confirmation by Richard survives as AR37/2)
Henry Champernowne bought the Cornish manors of Tywardreath and Ludgvan
("The Cornish Lands of the Arundells of Lanherne, Fourteenth to Sixteenth
Centuries", H S A FOX and O J PADEL eds. cite Oliver, "Monasticon, p43, no.
XX (a deed now lost from the Arundel archive))
Oliver Dinham bought the Cornish manors of Bodardle and Cardinham and the
Honour of Cardinham ("The Cornish Lands of the Arundells of Lanherne,
Fourteenth to Sixteenth Centuries", H S A FOX and O J PADEL eds. cite MS.
34,792A fols 3r. and 8v.9r. in the British Library)
1270 Hugh Trverbyn (incorrectly stated as Isolda Cardinham's nephew instead
of 2nd cousin?) disputed the claims of Oliver de Dinham but he lost the case
(Cornwall Feet of Fines, nos. 56, 142, 220, 241). Ronny Bodine in Jul 1999
(see post by Kathie Weigel of 25 Jul 1999) says the parties involved in the
fine were Hugh de Treverbin, grandson of Isolda de Cardinham, and Henry de
Champernoun, grandson of Isolda's sister Emma's husband Jordan's brother
Henry. (However Emma was not Isolda Cardinham's sister but her aunt, if I
have this right).
Ivor West's post of 7 Oct 2002 quoting Cornwall fine 222 has "Hugh Trverbyn
quit-claiming, for 300 marks, Trevolonan, Tywardreath, Ludevon (Ludgvan) and
Penalym to Henry de Champernoun, lands which Henry had just received from
Isolda de Cardinham "on the day this concord was made." Also, at the same
court, in Cornwall fine no.220, Hugh de Treverbyn quit-claimed Cardinham and
Bodardel to Oliver de Dinham for one sore goshawk. By quit-claiming to both
Champernoun and Dinham he was bidding farewell, as prospective right heir,
to practically his last hold on the better part of 71 fees. Perhaps, if
this were all part and parcel of Earl Richard's post-Barons' war
reparations, like Isolda, and maybe Roger de Valletort too, he saw it as an
offer he couldn't refuse." (Was Isolda remarried to William Ferrers at the
point of this first fine?)
1270 Isolda marries William Ferrers. Footnote to Cornwall Fine 222 says
Isolda Cardinham had 2 sons by William Ferrers (said to be Roger d.s.p. and
Hugh). The claim of the two sons is made by Watkin "History of Totnes Priory
and Medieval Town", ii, 1011 - 1021 but does not appear supportable.
1270 In Devon fine 715, William de Ferrers, husband number two, and Isolda
quit-claimed Fuge, Strete and Burlestone to Hugh de Treverbyn for one sore
goshawk.
127? William Ferrers dies (perhaps see Cornwall Feet of Fines 171, 188 &
222)
1275 Before 26 Feb 1275 Josce Dinham, son of Oliver Dinham born, proof of
age 1316. If Isolda is his mother she was 40 years old. (Is his proof of age
extant?)
1276 'By Fine of Nov. 3, 1276, Richard son of Geoffrey de Dynan, and Isolda
Richard's wife, enfeoff Hugh le Tanur, in a messuage in Ludlow, for eight
marks paid down, and a rent of one Rose, reserved to the Grantors and the
heirs of Isolda. ' Eyton's Antiquities of Shropshire, Vol. 5, p288.
1277 Before Jan 24 1276/77 Oliver Dinham marries Isabel Vere (Royal approval
given 18 May 1280) (CP IV:370-371). The IPM of Alice Giffard (CIPM, ii 237 5
Edw I (1276)) shows Alice held 1/2 a fee of Oliver de Dinham "by reason of
the dower of Isabel de Courtenay, his wife."
1279 Isolda Cardinham presents as patron of St Mabyn (Benson) (St Mabyn is
about 10km from Cardinham in Cornwall, there are two pictures of the church
at St Mabyn at http://www.caerkief.demon.co.uk/Maybn.htm) TAF in 1999 in his
Ferrers of Devon post quotes D&CN&Q, vol. 21: 57-62, 98-105, 157-164, The
Ferrers: Ferrers of Bere, by R.B.M. as saying Isolda presented in 1279 as a
widow (was this to St Maybn or Bere Ferrers?).
1295 John Dinham, son of Josce Dinham born 14 September 1295, d 1332 (CIPM
iii, no. 532; idem, iv, no. 44; CFR iv, p. 310)
1299 Oliver Dinham dies 26 February 1299 (is there an IPM?)
1301 The 1270 Cornish fine footnote says Isolda Cardinham died. This is not
proven in the sources to that fine. (Watkin says that his source for
Isolda's death in 1301 came from H. H. Drake's, History of St. Finbarrus,
Fowey. The relevant Harleian may be MS 5185, folio 70as quoted by Vivian)
