C.P. Addition: Joan Mowbray, wife of Thomas Gray, Knt., and Thomas Tunstall, Knt.
Douglas Richardson
The authoritative Complete Peerage, 6 (1926): 136 (sub Grey of Powis)
includes a passing reference to King Edward I's descendant, Joan
Mowbray, wife successively of Thomas Gray, Knt. (died 1400), of Heaton
(in Norham), Northumberland, and Thomas Tunstall, Knt. (died 1415), of
Thurland (in Tunstall), Lancashire. Complete Peerage makes no
reference to her illustrious maiden name, nor is her parentage
provided. Rather, it just states that Joan was living 30 November
1402. The source cited for this statement is Patent Roll, 4 Hen. IV,
p. 1, m.9, which reference is better rendered as Calendar of Patent
Rolls, 1401–1405 (1905): 182. The item in question may be viewed at
the following weblink:
http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/h4v2/body/Henry4vol2page0182.pdf
The Patent Rolls reference basically indicates that Joan, widow of
Thomas Grey, Knt., was living 30 November 1402, as stated by Complete
Peerage.
Evidence of Joan Mowbray's maiden name is found on the monumental
inscription of her son, Henry Gray (died 1464) of Ketteringham,
Norfolk, which reads as follows:
"Here lyeth Syr Henry Grey, the sonne of Syre Thomas Grey, and Jone,
hys wyf, that was systere to the Duke of Norfolk, that dyed at
Venis." [Reference: Scott, Memorials of the Family of Scott (1876), p.
126 footnote p (reference courtesy of Dr. David Faris); see also
Norfolk Archaeology, 3 (1852): 274-275.].
Moreover, Henry Gray's son, Sir Henry Grey the younger (died 1496), of
Ketteringham, Norfolk, and his nephew and heir, Thomas Martyn, are
styled “of my lordes [i.e., husband’s] nere blode” in 1495 by
Elizabeth Talbot, Duchess of Norfolk, widow of John Mowbray, 4th Duke
of Norfolk [Reference: Gairdner, Paston Letters 6 (1904): 155–156].
This reference may be viewed at the following weblinks:
http://books.google.com/books?id=_1oLAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA156&dq=my+lordes+nere+blode#PPA155,M1
http://books.google.com/books?id=_1oLAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA156&dq=my+lordes+nere+blode#PPA156,M1
Roskell's biography of Joan Mowbray's first husband, Sir Thomas Gray,
in his House of Commons series indicates that the widowed Joan
(Mowbray) Gray married (2nd) Thomas Tunstall, Knt.:
"The widowed Joan Gray obtained the customary third of her late
husband's estates, while also retaining control of the now
considerably devalued property in and around Wark which had been
settled upon her as jointure during her lifetime. In her capacity as
Sir Thomas's executrix, she was obliged to fight a legal action over
the wardship of Sir Henry Heton's young daughters, although by the
time the case reached the courts, in 1407, she could call upon the
assistance of her second husband, Sir Thomas Tunstall." END OF
QUOTE. [Reference: Roskell, House of Commons 1386–1421, 3 (1992): 222–
225 (biog. of Sir Thomas Gray)].
Elsewhere, I find that Thomas Tunstall, Knt., and his wife, Joan, sued
William, abbot of Alnwick, in 1407, regarding cattle worth £100 which
he unjustly detained. [Reference: Arch. Æliana 3rd ser. 6 (1910):
68].
This reference may be viewed at the following weblink (click on page
68):
The above lawsuit confirms Roskell's statement that Joan Mowbray, then
wife of Sir Thomas Tunstall, was living in 1407. However, the lawsuit
with the abbot of Alnwick appears to a different legal matter than the
legal action Joan was pursuing that same year mentioned by Roskell
which involved the wardship of Sir Henry Heton's daughters.
As for Joan Mowbray's second husband, Sir Thomas Tunstall, I find that
in 1413 he was granted the keeping of all the castles, manors, towns,
lordships, and lands late of John Parr, tenant in chief, during the
minority of Thomas his son and heir. He served as a justice of the
peace for Westmorland in 1414 and commissioner of array for
Westmorland in 1415. In April 1415 he agreed to serve King Henry V
for the term of one year, he supplying six men at arms and eighteen
horse archers. He fought at the Battle of Agincourt 25 October 1415.
Sir Thomas Tunstall died 5 November 1415.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Douglas Richardson
For "Joan, widow of Thomas Grey, Knt., was living 30 November 1402,"
read "Joan, widow of Thomas Gray, Knt., was living 30 November 1402"
For "appears to a different legal matter," read "appears to be a
different legal matter"
Douglas Richardson
Below is a better transcript of monumental inscription of Henry Gray,
younger son of Joan (Mowbray) (Gray) Tunstall:
“Here lyth Henr Gray, the sonne of syre Thm’ Gray of Heto’n and Jone
his Wyfe that was systyr to the duke of Norff’ yt deyid at Venys
[Venice]; and Emme the Wyfe of the forseyde Henr Gray dowtyr of Wyllm
Aplyerde of the sayde Countie of Norff’ Esqyer on woys sowlis god have
Mercy.” [Reference: Norfolk Archaeology, 26 (1936): 101–102
(monumental inscription of Henry Gray formerly found at Ketteringham,
Norfolk].
In the transcript I provided in my earlier post which was taken from
another source, it was stated that Henry Gray was knighted. The above
transcript correctly shows that he was not knighted. Contemporary
records indicate that Henry Gray held the rank of esquire.
There is yet another transcript of Henry Gray's monumental inscription
which was published in 1893-1894 in the East Anglian journal, n.s.,
vol. 5, pg. 164. This third version may be viewed at the following
weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=96JPAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA164&dq=Here+lyth+Henr+Gray
Peter G R Howarth
I. Please see comment interspersed below.
Peter G R Howarth
----------------------------
On 28 May 2008 22:17 Douglas Richardson <royalan...@msn.com> wrote
>Dear Newsgroup ~
>
<snip>
>
>Roskell's biography of Joan Mowbray's first husband, Sir Thomas Gray,
>in his House of Commons series indicates that the widowed Joan
>(Mowbray) Gray married (2nd) Thomas Tunstall, Knt.:
>
>"The widowed Joan Gray obtained the customary third of her late
>husband's estates, while also retaining control of the now
>considerably devalued property in and around Wark which had been
>settled upon her as jointure during her lifetime. In her capacity as
>Sir Thomas's executrix, she was obliged to fight a legal action over
>the wardship of Sir Henry Heton's young daughters, although by the
>time the case reached the courts, in 1407, she could call upon the
>assistance of her second husband, Sir Thomas Tunstall." END OF
>QUOTE. [Reference: Roskell, House of Commons 1386-1421, 3 (1992): 222-
>225 (biog. of Sir Thomas Gray)].
>
>Elsewhere, I find that Thomas Tunstall, Knt., and his wife, Joan, sued
>William, abbot of Alnwick, in 1407, regarding cattle worth £100 which
>he unjustly detained. [Reference: Arch. Æliana 3rd ser. 6 (1910):
>68].
>
>This reference may be viewed at the following weblink (click on page
>68):
>
>http://search.live.com/books#q=%22Marmaduke%20de%20Lumley%22&filter=all&pag
>e=1&t=PqgnQg_Ey25KoY4K5JwH_A&sq=Tunstall
>
>The above lawsuit confirms Roskell's statement that Joan Mowbray, then
>wife of Sir Thomas Tunstall, was living in 1407. However, the lawsuit
>with the abbot of Alnwick appears to a different legal matter than the
>legal action Joan was pursuing that same year mentioned by Roskell
>which involved the wardship of Sir Henry Heton's daughters.
Based on what you have written above, we seem to have only a secondary
source to say that Joan, widow of Sir Thomas Gray, married, as her second
husband, Sir Thomas Tunstall. There is a primary source that says Sir
Thomas Grey had a wife Joan [dau of John, 4th Ld Mowbray, of Axholme] and a
primary source that says Sir Thomas Tunstall had a wife Joan (no surname).
Do we in fact have a primary source to show that Sir Thomas Tunstall's Joan
is the same as Sir Thomas Gray's?
>As for Joan Mowbray's second husband, Sir Thomas Tunstall, I find that
>in 1413 he was granted the keeping of all the castles, manors, towns,
>lordships, and lands late of John Parr, tenant in chief, during the
>minority of Thomas his son and heir. He served as a justice of the
>peace for Westmorland in 1414 and commissioner of array for
>Westmorland in 1415. In April 1415 he agreed to serve King Henry V
>for the term of one year, he supplying six men at arms and eighteen
>horse archers. He fought at the Battle of Agincourt 25 October 1415.
>Sir Thomas Tunstall died 5 November 1415.
>
Douglas Richardson
Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.
In answer to your question, the evidence of the marriage of Joan
Mowbray, widow of Sir Thomas Gray, to Sir Thomas Tunstall may be found
in Joseph Bain, ed., Calendar of Documents Relating to Scotland
Preserved in Her Majesty's Public Record Office , vol. 4 (1882), pp.
151-152. Below is a copy of the information found on that page:
"8 June [Year: 1407]. No. 438. Writ commanding the escheator of
Northumberland to inquire into the ages of Johanna and Elizabeth
sisters and heirs of William son and heir of the late Sir Henry of
Heton knight, who lately died a minor in the King's ward, whose
husbands, Robert of Rotherford and William Johnson, claim their wives'
lands; and to cite Sir Thomas of Tunstalle knight, and Johanna his
wife, executrix of the late Sir Thomas Gray of Heton, to appear in
Chancery for their interest, Sir Thomas Grey and Johanna having the
ward of the late Sir Henry's lands. Westminster." END OF QUOTE.
The above item may also be viewed at the following weblinks:
wjhonson
>
> As for Joan Mowbray's second husband, Sir Thomas Tunstall, I find that
> in 1413 he was granted the keeping of all the castles, manors, towns,
> lordships, and lands late of John Parr, tenant in chief, during the
> minority of Thomas his son and heir.
-----------------
Who he apparently contracted to marry his own daughter Alice
Tunstall. Or at least they did marry, sometime before 1435.
Will Johnson
Peter G R Howarth
Thank you very much.
Joseph Bain (as do Scott, editor of Memorials of the Family of Scott, and
Roskell of the House of Commons series) seems to think that Henry Grey, son
of Sir Thomas, was knighted. There is no mention of his knighthood in the
second version of the monumental inscription, and in that post you said,
"Contemporary records indicate that Henry Gray held the rank of esquire."
Please could you give examples.
Many thanks.
Peter G R Howarth
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19:53
Douglas Richardson
Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.
The following four contemporary records concern Henry (or Harry) Gray,
Esq. (died 1464), who was the younger son of Thomas Gray, Knt., of
Heaton (in Norham), Northumberland, and his wife, Joan Mowbray. These
items can be found at the following weblink:
http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp.
In second and fourth items below, Henry Gray is specifically styled
esquire; in none of them is he styled a knight. The third item is
shortly before his death.
The belief that Henry Gray was knighted may simply have been due to a
faulty reading of his monumental inscription published in Norfolk
Archæology, 3 (1852): 274–275. As I indicated, there are two other
published transcripts of the same inscription in which Henry Gray is
not styled knight. Also, it is possible that Henry Gray was confused
with his son, Henry Gray the younger, which individual was definitely
knighted.
Do you know of any contemporary record of the elder Henry Gray being
styled a knight?
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
1. PRO Document, C 1/26/255 (Chancery Proceeding dated 1456–1460: John
Kyng and Mary his wife, late the wife of William Aplyerd v. Henry
Grey, the elder, Edmund ...., Nicholas Drax, of London, and other
feoffees of the said William re. the manor of East C(a)r(lton?),
Norfolk).
2. PRO Document, C 1/26/281 (Chancery Proceeding dated 1456–1460:
Humphrey Boughsher v. Margaret, late the wife, and feoffee of Thomas
Wetherby, and Henry Grey, Esq., and John Tasburgh, her co-feoffees re.
manor of Brundall (Brondale): Norfolk).
3. PRO Document, C 1/29/157 (Chancery Proceeding dated 1460–1465:
John Aleyn, the elder, of Earlham. v. John Barney, Harry Gray, of
Ketteringham, John Appliard, of Hethel (Hetthyll), and others re.
holding an inquest by a commission in spite of a supersedeas, and
compelling a jury to present that petitioner laboured divers things
against the weal of the King at the Parliament at Coventry).
4. C 241/230/64 (Debtor: Henry Gray, of Ketteringham, Norfolk,
Esquire, William Appleyard, of Norfolk, Esquire, William Stanlowe, of
Lincolnshire, Gentleman, William Dalling, of Fordham, Norfolk,
Gentleman. Creditor: Thomas Wetherby, Esq. Amount: 40m. of legal
English money. Before whom: Richard Purdaunce, Mayor of Norwich;
Thomas Wetherby, Clerk. When taken: 14/04/1434. First term:
29/09/1437. Last term: 13/04/1438. Writ to: Sheriff of Norfolk.
Sent by: ... ..., Mayor of Norwich; Thomas Wetherby, Clerk.
Endorsement: Norff' Coram Iusticiariis de Banco in quindena sancte
Trinitatis. Covering dates: 1442 Jan. 13).