Galileo

[Jan Wolfe]

In the thread about Harry and Meghan, https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!topic/soc.genealogy.medieval/mlJBW9m-Oq4,

On Thursday, November 30, 2017 at 6:03:37 PM UTC-5, Peter Stewart wrote:
...
> Why does nothing like the same effort go into documenting possible lines
> of descent to the present from ancestors who are equally or more
> historic but not royal (or dim) - such as, say, Bach or Galileo?
>
> Peter Stewart

and

On Friday, December 1, 2017 at 3:29:38 AM UTC-5, Kelsey Jackson Williams wrote:
> Dear Peter, et al.,
>
> In terms of s.g.m, this "narrowing band of self-centred interest" *can* be fixed, but only by those of us who work on topics other than late-medieval / early modern royally descended English men and women. I'm as guilty of this as anyone, but if we really want to expand the remit of our discussions - and, in doing so, perhaps also reverse the "dwindling numbers" here, which seems to me to be a real concern - we need to start posting something new on Bach's descendants or what have you and also start responding to those sorts of posts to generate the critical mass needed to keep them going.
>
> All the best,
> Kelsey
>

OK, here is a start for those interested in seeking descendants of Galileo and his siblings.

In an introductory chapter in the book, _Galileo's Daughter_, Dava Sobel provides a family tree of Galileo's family, starting with his parents, Vincenzio, b. 1520, d. 2 July 1591, m. 5 July 1562 Giulia de Cosimo Ammannati (b. 1538, d. September 1620).

The children of Vincenzio and Giulia are listed as
1. Galileo, b. 15 February 1564, d. 8 January 1642, with partner Marina Gamba had issue:
1.1. Virginia, b. 13 August 1600, nun in San Matteo d'Arcetri (took vows on 28 October 1616) with the name Suor Maria Celeste, d. 2 April 1634
1.2. Livia, b. 18 August 1601, nun in San Matteo d'Arcetri (took vows on 28 October 1617) with the name Suor Arcangela, d. 14 June 1659
1.3. Vincenzio, b. 21 August 1606, d. 16 May 1649, legitimized 25 June 1619, m. 29 January 1629 Sestilia de Carlo Bocchineri (d. 21 January 1669), had issue:
1.3.1. Galileo, b. 5 December 1629, d. 1652
1.3.2. Carlo b. 20 January 1631, d. 26 June 1675, m. 29 September 1660 Alessandra de Tommaso Pancetti, had issue:
1.3.2.1&2. Sestilia and Polissena, b. 16 July 1662, nuns in San Giovanni Evangelista at San Salvi as of 16 January 1677, with names of Suor Maria Geltrude and Suor Maria Costanza
1.3.2.3. Vincenzio, b. 21 January 1665, d. 20 June 1709, m. 23 December 1700 Rosa de Niccolo Perosio (d. July 1736)
1.3.3. Cosimo, b. 11 April 1636, ordained in the Congregation of the Missions in 1663, d. 31 October 1672
2. Benedetto
3. Virginia, b. 8 May 1573, d. 7 May 1623, m. 1591 Benedetto de Luca Landucci, had issue:
3.1. Vincenzio, b. 8 August 1595, d. July 1649, m. Anna di Cosimo Diociaiuti, had issue:
3.1.1. Benedetto b. 1630
3.1.2. Virginia, nun in San Giorgio with the name of Suor Olimpia
3.2. ?Benedictine monk
3.3. ?nun in San Giorgio with the name of Suor Arcangela
3.4. Virginia, nun in San Matteo d'Arcetri with the name of Suor Chiara
4. Anna
5. Michelangelo, b. 18 December 1575, d. 3 January 1671, m. 1608 Anna Chiara Bandinelli (d. 1634), had issue:
5.1. Vincenzio, b. 1608
5.2. Mechilde, d. 1634
5.3. Alberto Cesare, b. November 1617, d. June 1692
5.4. Cosimo
5.5. Michelangelo, d. 1634
5.6. Elisabetta
5.7. Anna Maria, b. 1625, d. 1634
5.8. Maria Fulvia, b. 1627, d. 1634
6. Livia, b. 7 October 1578, m. January 1601 Taddeo di Cesare Galletti, had issue:
6.1. Cesare, b. 15 December 1601
6.2. ? b. 26 September 1603, d. 27 September 1603
6.3. Girolamo, b. 1609
6.4. Antonio, b. 1610
7. Lena (?)

[Peter Stewart]

On 02-Dec-17 6:30 AM, Jan Wolfe wrote:
> In the thread about Harry and Meghan, https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!topic/soc.genealogy.medieval/mlJBW9m-Oq4,
>
> On Thursday, November 30, 2017 at 6:03:37 PM UTC-5, Peter Stewart wrote:
> ...
>> Why does nothing like the same effort go into documenting possible lines
>> of descent to the present from ancestors who are equally or more
>> historic but not royal (or dim) - such as, say, Bach or Galileo?
>>
>> Peter Stewart
> and
>
> On Friday, December 1, 2017 at 3:29:38 AM UTC-5, Kelsey Jackson Williams wrote:
>> Dear Peter, et al.,
>>
>> In terms of s.g.m, this "narrowing band of self-centred interest" *can* be fixed, but only by those of us who work on topics other than late-medieval / early modern royally descended English men and women. I'm as guilty of this as anyone, but if we really want to expand the remit of our discussions - and, in doing so, perhaps also reverse the "dwindling numbers" here, which seems to me to be a real concern - we need to start posting something new on Bach's descendants or what have you and also start responding to those sorts of posts to generate the critical mass needed to keep them going.
>>
>> All the best,
>> Kelsey
>>
> OK, here is a start for those interested in seeking descendants of Galileo and his siblings.
>
> In an introductory chapter in the book, _Galileo's Daughter_, Dava Sobel provides a family tree of Galileo's family, starting with his parents, Vincenzio, b. 1520, d. 2 July 1591, m. 5 July 1562 Giulia de Cosimo Ammannati (b. 1538, d. September 1620).

Galileo's mother has had a rather bad press - she is said to have been
quarrelsome. I suppose if she was existentially dissatisfied with things
as she found them that could be the obverse of her son's curiosity about
the natural order. Anyway, apparently she was related to the Tedaldi
family with whom Galileo lived while studying at the university of Pisa.
Some accounts make this connection by marriage, others imply it was by
blood. Does anyone know the facts?

Peter Stewart

[Jan Wolfe]

On Friday, December 1, 2017 at 6:10:27 PM UTC-5, Peter Stewart wrote:
...

> Galileo's mother has had a rather bad press - she is said to have been
> quarrelsome. I suppose if she was existentially dissatisfied with things
> as she found them that could be the obverse of her son's curiosity about
> the natural order. Anyway, apparently she was related to the Tedaldi
> family with whom Galileo lived while studying at the university of Pisa.
> Some accounts make this connection by marriage, others imply it was by
> blood. Does anyone know the facts?
>
> Peter Stewart

Here is one account of Giulia di Cosimo Ammannati:
https://brunelleschi.imss.fi.it/itineraries/biography/GiuliaAmmannati.html

In addition to discussing her interactions with her son Galileo, it states that she "came from a family that had originated from Pescia and settled in Pisa around 1536. Giulia was born in 1538 and had three sisters, Diamante, Dorotea and Ermellina, and one brother, Leone. The only thing we know about her father Cosimo, a lumber merchant, is that on the day his daughter married Vincenzo Galilei (c.1520-1591), on July 5, 1562, he was already deceased. It was Leone who provided the dowery, and in addition to handing over a sum of money he furnished the newlyweds with room and board for one year."

[Jan Wolfe]

On Friday, December 1, 2017 at 6:23:07 PM UTC-5, Jan Wolfe wrote:
...

> Here is one account of Giulia di Cosimo Ammannati:
> https://brunelleschi.imss.fi.it/itineraries/biography/GiuliaAmmannati.html
>

...

For those of us with limited language skills, perhaps someone can provide a transcription or abstract in English of anything of interest in the account that starts here:
https://books.google.com/books?id=zO81AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA269

I think that I can see that it says Giulia came from the ancient and illustrious family of Ammannati. Does it name Vincenzio's father and grandfather as Michelangiolo and Giovanni Galilei of Florence, Giulia's father and grandfather as Cosimo and Ventura Ammannati of Pescia, and Giulia's brother as Lione living in Pisa?

Googling "Ventura Ammannati" brings up several similar accounts.

[Peter Stewart]

The Ammannati family of Pescia can be documented from the late-13th
century if not before - see

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=jlVTAAAAcAAJ&pg=RA3-PA349

I assume that no definite line from Lamberto down to Galileo's mother
Giulia has yet been traced, or at any rate published.

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

On 02-Dec-17 11:05 AM, Peter Stewart wrote:
> On 02-Dec-17 10:23 AM, Jan Wolfe wrote:

> The Ammannati family of Pescia can be documented from the late-13th
> century if not before - see
>
> https://books.google.com.au/books?id=jlVTAAAAcAAJ&pg=RA3-PA349
>
> I assume that no definite line from Lamberto down to Galileo's mother
> Giulia has yet been traced, or at any rate published.

Galileo may have lived a century or so too late for his own good -
Jacopo Ammannati, who was presumably a relative on his mother's side,
was cardinal camerlengo under Pius II

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacopo_Piccolomini-Ammannati

However, the carindal's fall into disfavour under Paul II may have been
caused by a family trait of inconvenient integrity.

Peter Stewart

[John Higgins]

Another biography of the cardinal - with a different take on his career, and with sources beyond the single source that the Wikipedia article carelessly transcribed:

http://webdept.fiu.edu/~mirandas/bios1461.htm#Ammannati

Apparently he was an Ammannati by birth and a Piccolomini through favor of Pius II.

But this is only marginally relevant, if at all, to the topic of Galileo's genealogy.

[Peter Stewart]

The Wikipedia article and the other one linked above are useful as
indicators of a potential milepost in searching for the family
background of Galileo's mother. Obviously a prominent cardinal in the
15th century is easier to look for and find relatives of than any
man-in-the-street of Pescia with the same surname. I don't see how this
is "only marginally relevant, if at all" to a thread about Galileo's
genealogy. If you have to start from scratch, you have to start
scratching around.

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

On 02-Dec-17 10:23 AM, Jan Wolfe wrote:

According to Ugo Baldini in *Dizionario biografico degli Italiani* vol
51 (1998), here

http://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/galileo-galilei_%28Dizionario-Biografico%29/

the genealogy of Galileo's paternal family, originally surnamed Bonaiuti
(of Florentine nobility), is known from the 14th century.

It appears that his mother's family is not so thoroughly recorded, as it
is not certain if the Pescia Ammannati family stemmed from or is even
related to the Pistoia family of the same surname.

The passage you asked about before
(https://books.google.com/books?id=zO81AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA269) is taken from
the marriage contract of Galileo's parents (in Latin) that can be found,
along with further information about the mother's family confirming your
post, in Antonio Favaro's 'Scampoli galileiani', serie settima XLIV 'Il
matrimonio dei genitori di Galileo', *Atti e memorie della R. Accademia
di scienze, lettere ed arti in Padova*, nuova serie 8 (1892) pp 12-22, here:

https://archive.org/stream/AttiEMemoriePadovaNs8/Atti_e_memorie_padova_ns_8#page/n15/mode/2up.

Peter Stewart

[Jan Wolfe]

On Friday, December 1, 2017 at 8:24:28 PM UTC-5, John Higgins wrote:
...

> Another biography of the cardinal - with a different take on his career, and with sources beyond the single source that the Wikipedia article carelessly transcribed:
>
> http://webdept.fiu.edu/~mirandas/bios1461.htm#Ammannati
>
> Apparently he was an Ammannati by birth and a Piccolomini through favor of Pius II.
>
> But this is only marginally relevant, if at all, to the topic of Galileo's genealogy.

Perhaps the comment that the cardinal, b. 1422, was "of an impoverished noble family" is a useful clue. Giulia's grandfather Ventura was plausibly born in the 1470s, about fifty years after the cardinal.

[Jan Wolfe]

On Friday, December 1, 2017 at 11:33:13 PM UTC-5, Peter Stewart wrote:
...

> The passage you asked about before
> (https://books.google.com/books?id=zO81AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA269) is taken from
> the marriage contract of Galileo's parents (in Latin) that can be found,
> along with further information about the mother's family confirming your
> post, in Antonio Favaro's 'Scampoli galileiani', serie settima XLIV 'Il
> matrimonio dei genitori di Galileo', *Atti e memorie della R. Accademia
> di scienze, lettere ed arti in Padova*, nuova serie 8 (1892) pp 12-22, here:
>
> https://archive.org/stream/AttiEMemoriePadovaNs8/Atti_e_memorie_padova_ns_8#page/n15/mode/2up.
>
> Peter Stewart

In an era when one could pay to have a child of a mistress legitimized, what appears to be a discussion of whether Galileo was conceived before the marriage arrangements of his parents were finalized seems amusing. Or am I misreading this?

[Jan Wolfe]

On Friday, December 1, 2017 at 11:33:13 PM UTC-5, Peter Stewart wrote:
...

> According to Ugo Baldini in *Dizionario biografico degli Italiani* vol
> 51 (1998), here
>
> http://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/galileo-galilei_%28Dizionario-Biografico%29/
>
> the genealogy of Galileo's paternal family, originally surnamed Bonaiuti
> (of Florentine nobility), is known from the 14th century.

...
> Peter Stewart

Dava Sobel (_Galileo's Daughter_) states:
"The family name Galilei, ironically, had itself been created from the first name of one of it foremost favorite sons. This was the renowned doctor Galileo Buonaiuti, who taught and practiced medicine during the early 1400s in Florence, where he also served the government loyally. His descendants redubbed themselves the Galilei family in his honor and wrote 'Galileo Galilei' on his tombstone, but retained the coat of arms that had belonged to the ancestral Buonaiutis since the thirteenth century--a red stepladder on a gold shield, forming a pictograph of the word buonaiuti, which literally means 'good help.'"

[Peter Stewart]

This is an example of a "furphy", in Australian usage: the wrong idea
that Galileo was illegitimate was a mistake of his first biographer, who
did not understand Pisan style dating - he was actually born 18 months
after the marriage of his parents.

Peter Stewart

[Jan Wolfe]

On Saturday, December 2, 2017 at 1:23:24 AM UTC-5, Peter Stewart wrote:
...

> This is an example of a "furphy", in Australian usage: the wrong idea
> that Galileo was illegitimate was a mistake of his first biographer, who
> did not understand Pisan style dating - he was actually born 18 months
> after the marriage of his parents.
>
> Peter Stewart

Thanks for the explanation.

Michael Sharratt, _Galileo: Decisive Innovator_ (1996), 22, discusses Galileo's ancestors, https://books.google.com/books?id=rB0rHzrpJOMC&pg=PA22.

Here is the pedigree described by Sharratt (plus the names in the marriage contract and the dates provided by Dana Sobel):

1. Giovanni Bonaiuti (13th century) = ?
2. ? = ?
3. ? = ?
4.a Galileo Bonaiutu aka Galileo Galilei, physician and professor in Florence, d.c. 1450
4.b ? (younger brother of 4.a) = ?
5. Giovanni Galilei = ?
6. Vincenzio Galilei, b. 1520, d. 2 July 1591 = 5 July 1562 Giulia Ammannati, b. 1538, d. September 1620
7. Galileo Galilei, b. 15 February 1564

The generations seem too long. How many of the wives are known? And the unnamed men? Galileo's father was about 44 when Galileo was born and about 58 when daughter Livia was born, but the outlined pedigree appears to require the previous two men in the pedigree to have been about 60 when their sons were born and the ones before them about 40 or more when their sons were born.

[Peter Stewart]

That's interesting - according to the table here it was an ancestral
uncle who changed the family's surname from Bonaiuti, not a direct ancestor:

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=IURmfYElGZ0C&pg=PA386

Peter Stewart

[Kelsey Jackson Williams]

Dear Peter,

Another interesting point in that pedigree concerns the family of Galileo's brother Michelangelo (1575-1631), the peripatetic and perennially impecunious musician. It states that his children settled in "Lituania" (i.e., the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth?). This would make sense given Michelangelo's existing connections there, but it's interesting as biographies of Galileo seem only to trace Michelangelo's children through the 1630s, when they were living in Munich. Judging from

https://tinyurl.com/ycnuqb4t

Michelangelo had three surviving sons - Vincenzo, Alberto, and Cosimo - living in Munich in 1636. Of these Alberto spent a year with his famous uncle in 1637-38 before returning to Germany.

Is there any evidence that one or more of these sons did, indeed, settle in eastern Europe?

All the best,
Kelsey

[Jan Wolfe]

On Saturday, December 2, 2017 at 2:53:06 AM UTC-5, Peter Stewart wrote:
> On 02-Dec-17 6:20 PM, Jan Wolfe wrote:

...

> > Michael Sharratt, _Galileo: Decisive Innovator_ (1996), 22, discusses Galileo's ancestors, https://books.google.com/books?id=rB0rHzrpJOMC&pg=PA22.
> >
> > Here is the pedigree described by Sharratt (plus the names in the marriage contract and the dates provided by Dana Sobel):
> >
> > 1. Giovanni Bonaiuti (13th century) = ?
> > 2. ? = ?
> > 3. ? = ?
> > 4.a Galileo Bonaiutu aka Galileo Galilei, physician and professor in Florence, d.c. 1450
> > 4.b ? (younger brother of 4.a) = ?
> > 5. Giovanni Galilei = ?
> > 6. Vincenzio Galilei, b. 1520, d. 2 July 1591 = 5 July 1562 Giulia Ammannati, b. 1538, d. September 1620
> > 7. Galileo Galilei, b. 15 February 1564
> >
> > The generations seem too long. How many of the wives are known? And the unnamed men? Galileo's father was about 44 when Galileo was born and about 58 when daughter Livia was born, but the outlined pedigree appears to require the previous two men in the pedigree to have been about 60 when their sons were born and the ones before them about 40 or more when their sons were born.
> >
>
> That's interesting - according to the table here it was an ancestral
> uncle who changed the family's surname from Bonaiuti, not a direct ancestor:
>
> https://books.google.com.au/books?id=IURmfYElGZ0C&pg=PA386
>
> Peter Stewart

Yes, that is what I intended to show in the outline pedigree with the 4.a and 4.b, and it is what Sharratt states. The pedigree in _Le opere di Galileo Galilei_ which you referenced puts an additional generation between the brother of the famous physician and the scientist Galileo. That helps with the problem of the generations being too long that I mentioned. It also supplies the missing names of the males in my outline.

So now we have (if Sharratt is right that the founder was a Giovanni in the thirteenth century who was the great grandfather of the physician Galileo):

1. Giovanni Bonaiuti (fl. 13th century) =
2. Tommaso Bonaiuti, fl. 1343 = ?
3. Giovanni Bonaiuti, fl. 1381 = ?
4. Michel Angelo Bonaiuti, fl. 1434 and 1438 (younger brother of Galileo Bonaiutu aka Galileo Galilei, physician and professor in Florence, fl. 1445, d.c. 1450) = ?
5. Giovanni Galilei, = ?
6. Michel Angelo, b. 1474 = ?
7. Vincenzio Galilei, b. 1520, d. 2 July 1591 = 5 July 1562 Giulia Ammannati, b. 1538, d. September 1620
8. Galileo Galilei, b. 15 February 1564

[Jan Wolfe]

On Saturday, December 2, 2017 at 7:26:09 AM UTC-5, Kelsey Jackson Williams wrote:
> Dear Peter,
>
> Another interesting point in that pedigree concerns the family of Galileo's brother Michelangelo (1575-1631), the peripatetic and perennially impecunious musician. It states that his children settled in "Lituania" (i.e., the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth?). This would make sense given Michelangelo's existing connections there, but it's interesting as biographies of Galileo seem only to trace Michelangelo's children through the 1630s, when they were living in Munich. Judging from
>
> https://tinyurl.com/ycnuqb4t
>
> Michelangelo had three surviving sons - Vincenzo, Alberto, and Cosimo - living in Munich in 1636. Of these Alberto spent a year with his famous uncle in 1637-38 before returning to Germany.
>
> Is there any evidence that one or more of these sons did, indeed, settle in eastern Europe?
>
> All the best,
> Kelsey
>

Dava Sobel states that Aberto Cesare was born in November 1617 and died in June 1692, so he presumably had time for a family. If the month and year of Alberto's death is known, one would think the place is known, too. She doesn't state anything further about Vincenzio (b. 1608) or Cosimo in the chart. The date she states for the death of Michelangel, 3 January 1671, is apparently a misprint. On p. 371 the event is stated as "1631 Michelangelo Galilei (brother) dies of plague in Germany."