Bernard Baliol_Alice Trayne
Wanda Thacker
I have read several books that said that Alice Trayne, who married Adam Bowes, c. 1309, inherited Streatlam Castle in Durham, England from her mother Agnes De La Hay. Agnes was supposed to be the niece of a Bernard Baliol, grandfather of John Baliol, king of Scotland.
My problem here is that I don't think John Baliol was the grandson of Bernard, but of his brother Hugh Baliol.
In which case, I have no idea, who Agnes De La Haye was the daughter of, and what her relationship to the Baliols was.
WJho...@aol.com
In a message dated 11/5/2008 9:15:06 PM Pacific Standard Time,
wand...@yahoo.com writes:
Alice Trayne, who married Adam Bowes, c. 1309, inherited >>
This year is based on what?
I think it might be based on nothing.
Will Johnson
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Alex Maxwell Findlater
> This year is based on what?
> I think it might be based on nothing.
>
> Will Johnson
One would logically presume that Wanda found the date in one of the
books she was reading.
The pedigrees of Balliol in both Geoffrey Stell's article in Essays on
the Nobility of Mediaeval Scotland (1985) and Amanda Beam's Balliol
Dynasty (2008) both show Bernard as a younger brother in two
generations, that of John, who married Devorguilla of Galloway and
that of his father Hugh, who according to Beam, but not Stell, married
Cecilia de Fontaines. There are difficulties with the Balliol
pedigree and I do not know whether these have been conclusively ironed
out, as both these writers are historians and therefore disdain to
argue the genealogy - that doesn't mean that they are not right, but
they may just be using a best-fit theory and copying earlier writers.
Neither pedigree shows daughters in these two generations, except a
sister of John, who marries John FitzRobert (Eure) of Warkworth. This
is not to say that this may not have happened. To resolve this, the
best place to look is probably the early records of the Bowes family.
WJho...@aol.com
"Lord Chief Justice of the Common Pleas" (so stated in 1332)
He was living still in 1345 but dead by 29E3 (1355/6) when his son Robert
Bowes, was then a Knt and Lord of Streatlam.
Robert d.s.p. when his heir was his brother William. Burkes says that one
who fought at Poictiers in 1346 is a grandson of Adam, but I think he might be
this one instead.
Either this William, or a son of the same name, must be the one who married
Matillis Dawden heiress of her father Jordan. The IPM's of William and
Matillis were recently posted by John Watson to my William Bowes thread, showing
that their son and heir Robert was already dead.
Therefore I propose as well, that that Robert who fought in Rouen in 1419
and who was slain in 1421 at Bange Bridge was in fact a grandson of William and
Matillis and not their son, even though he is called of Streatlam, its quite
possible he died fairly young and still living with his brother/mother.
Jane (called Conyers) the daughter-in-law of William and Matillis who married
lastly to Thomas Brounfleet probably was holding Streatlam in dower for her
life anyway, and she didn't die until 1437/8.
Alex Maxwell Findlater
much earlier Bernards:
Guy d ca 1130
Hugh, his brother
Bernard I, Hugh's son, d ca 1154x62
Bernard II, son of Bernard I, d ca 1190
Eustace de Helicourt & later de Balliol, son of Hugh de Helicourt (d
ca 1181) and first cousin of Bernard II
Hugh I d 1229, his son
John I d 1268, his son
successively Hugh II, Alexander and John II later King of Scots,
brothers, sons of last
It might be a reference misplaced as to date to Bernard I or II, both
of whom were the chief cheese.
John Watson
> -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001)
Hi Will,
I think the descent of Streatlam goes like this:
1. Adam Bowes (d. < 1355) m. Alice Trayner, dau of John Trayner (or
Traynez) of Streatlam
2. Robert Bowes m. Elizabeth (-< Nov 1384). She possibly married
secondly John Heron and thirdly Robert de Eslington
2. William Bowes (d. 1399) m. Maud de Dalden, (d. 1420-1) daughter of
Robert de Dalden
3. Robert Bowes (d. bef 1399) m. Joan Conyers (d. 1438), dau of Robert
Conyers of Coatham, Durham and Ormesby, Yorkshire (d. 1390) and his
second wife Aline [de la Legh?], (d. 1408) widow of William de Dalden
(d. 1369). Joan married secondly John Faucombergh and thirdly Thomas
Brounflete (dsp. <1430) son of Thomas Brounflete and Margaret St
John.
4. William Bowes(1392-1458) m. Jane Greystoke, dau of Ralph Greystoke
(d. 1418) of Kirkby Ravensworth, Yorkshire and Katherine Clifford.
5. William Bowes (1425-1466) m. Maud FitzHugh, dau of William FitzHugh
(d. Oct 1452) and Margery Willoughby
6. William Bowes (1444-dsp 1473) m. Isabel. She married secondly
Thomas Bryan (d. 1500)
7. Ralph Bowes, (1449-1512) brother of William Bowes, m. Margery
Conyers, dau of Richard Conyers of South Cowton, Yorkshire
Regards,
John
John Watson
That should say:
Hi Will,
I think the descent of Streatlam goes like this:
1. Adam Bowes (d. < 1355) m. Alice Trayner, dau of John Trayner (or
Traynez) of Streatlam
2. Robert Bowes m. Elizabeth (-< Nov 1384). She possibly married
secondly John Heron and thirdly Robert de Eslington
3. Thomas Bowes (d. 1379) [1].
4. William Bowes (1354-1399) brother of Thomas Bowes m. Maud de
Dalden, (d. 1420-1) daughter of
Robert de Dalden
5. Robert Bowes (d. bef 1399) m. Joan Conyers (d. 1438), dau of Robert
Conyers of Coatham, Durham and Ormesby, Yorkshire (d. 1390) and his
second wife Aline [de la Legh?], (d. 1408) widow of William de Dalden
(d. 1369). Joan married secondly John Faucombergh and thirdly Thomas
Brounflete (dsp. <1430) son of Thomas Brounflete and Margaret St
John.
6. William Bowes(1392-1458) m. Jane Greystoke, dau of Ralph Greystoke
(d. 1418) of Kirkby Ravensworth, Yorkshire and Katherine Clifford.
7. William Bowes (1425-1466) m. Maud FitzHugh, dau of William FitzHugh
(d. Oct 1452) and Margery Willoughby
8. William Bowes (1444-dsp 1473) m. Isabel. She married secondly
Thomas Bryan (d. 1500)
9. Ralph Bowes, (1449-1512) brother of William Bowes, m. Margery
Conyers, dau of Richard Conyers of South Cowton, Yorkshire
Regards,
John
1. Bowes, Thomas del. Inq. p.m. taken 10 October 1379 at Durham.
William, aged 24, is his brother and next heir [1].
45th Annual Report of the Deputy Keeper of the Public Records (London:
1885) p 162
CPerry
I am not sure where I read it, but somewhere someone had the idea that
Baliol used to be named de Vaux. And that line married into the
Strickland line. Can anyone confirm or disprove this for me?
Thanks
Claude P Perry II
> 1885) p 162- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
WJho...@aol.com
In a message dated 11/7/2008 3:35:22 AM Pacific Standard Time,
Watso...@gmail.com writes:
1. Adam Bowes (d. < 1355) m. Alice Trayner, dau of John Trayner (or
Traynez) of Streatlam
2. Robert Bowes m. Elizabeth (-< Nov 1384). She possibly married
secondly John Heron and thirdly Robert de Eslington
3. Thomas Bowes (d. 1379) [1].>>
---------------
What I would like to do is add a generation in here.
I'm concerned a bit that John Traynet, Knt, and Lord of Streatlam was living
as an adult in 1310 while his grandson was dying almost a hundred years
later.
It's possible. But I don't like it. So here is what I propose.
1. John Traynet, Knt and Lord of Streatlam living as an adult in 1310
2. Alice Traynet sole heiress of her father + Adam Bowes of Streatlam j.u.,
Lord Justice of the Common Pleas -1332-, he was living in 1345 but dead by
29E3 (1355/6)
3. Robert Bowes, Knt, Lord of Streatlam eldest son, adult by 1335, living
29E3 but d.s.p.m. when his heir was his next brother William
4. William Bowes, Lord of Streatlam, fought at Poictiers 1346 for which K.
Bann that year
5. Thomas Bowes, son of William, possibly Lord of Streatlam, IPM 1379 d.s.p
heir was his next brother William
6. William Bowes of Streatlam "aged 24" in 1379; married Matillis Dawden
daughter of Jordan or Robert Dawden. William's IPM 22 Dec 1399 when heir was
his grandson William
I like this chronology a lot better and it allows all the pieces that are
supposed to exist.
I'd like to find, perhaps in CPR, some reference to this older William as K.
Bann or something....
Will
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WJho...@aol.com
_http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/e3v12/body/Edward3vol12page0033.pdf_
(http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/e3v12/body/Edward3vol12page0033.pdf)
This would greatly trim the life of Robert Bowes of Streatlam.
WJho...@aol.com
_http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/r2v1/body/Richard2vol1page0094.pdf_
(http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/r2v1/body/Richard2vol1page0094.pdf)
Sounds like someting a 21 to 23 year old man would do.
Knt? or maybe this is his father (using my proposed chronology) who would be
in his 50s at least
WJho...@aol.com
WJho...@aol.com
Streatlam on him at some point?
He could be called "of Streatlam" just because he was living at home with
his parents, but was he ever the "lord" of Streatlam, that's the question?
I wonder that Streatlam couldn't just go direct from William to his grandson?
In a message dated 11/7/2008 3:20:28 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
Watso...@gmail.com writes:
2. William Bowes (d. 1399) m. Maud de Dalden, (d. 1420-1) daughter of
Robert de Dalden
3. Robert Bowes (d. bef 1399) m. Joan Conyers (d. 1438),
**************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other
John Watson
> I don't know. Do you have something that shows that Robert actually had
> Streatlam on him at some point?
> He could be called "of Streatlam" just because he was living at home with
> his parents, but was he ever the "lord" of Streatlam, that's the question?
> I wonder that Streatlam couldn't just go direct from William to his grandson?
>
> In a message dated 11/7/2008 3:20:28 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
>
>
> 2. William Bowes (d. 1399) m. Maud de Dalden, (d. 1420-1) daughter of
> Robert de Dalden
>
> 3. Robert Bowes (d. bef 1399) m. Joan Conyers (d. 1438),
>
> **************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other
> Holiday needs. Search Now.
> -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001)
Hi Will,
After some further researches, I think the Bowes family goes like
this:
1. Adam de Bowes (d. after May 1345) married supposedly to Alice
Trayner but I can find no primary evidence to show that she existed.
2. Robert Bowes I, who probably died in his father's lifetime married
Isabel [1]. - see 2a below
3. Robert Bowes II, died before June 1361 married Elizabeth, widow of
Sir Robert de Eslington (died bef. Feb 1351). She married thirdly Sir
John Heron. She died before 14 Nov 1384 [2].
4. Sir William Bowes, born about 1354, died before 22 December 1399,
married Maud de Dalden, she died before 28 April 1421
5. Robert Bowes, died before 22 December 1399, married Joan Conyers .
etc. see my previous post
1. Notes for Isabel:
a) 30 June 1361, Whereas Thomas Brok, John Curteys, Thomas Wythirhird
and Thomas Hankil acquired in fee from John de Esilrig and Richard de
Rok two parts of a moiety of the manors of Esselyngton, Whityngeham,
Throunton and Barton, held in chief, which the said John de Hesilrig
and Richard had acquired from Robert de Bowes who held them as of the
right of his wife Isabel, and Isabel after the death of her said
husband entering into the same as her right and inheritance enfeoffed
Donald (Douenaldum) de Heselrig of the same two parts, and of the
reversion of the third part of the said moiety, likewise held in
chief, expectant on the demise of Elizabeth late the wife of Robert de
Esselyngton, tenant in dower, and all those named above entered into
the said two parts and Donald received the attornment of the said
Elizabeth in respect of the third part, without the king's licence ;
the king for 10l. paid by Donald has pardoned these trespasses and has
further granted licence for Donald to enfeoff Edmund de Eselrig of the
said two parts and reversion and for the latter to re-enfeoff him of
the same [Calendar of Patent Rolls, Edward 3, Vol 12, p 33].
b) 6 February 1363, Pardon, for 100s. paid to the king by Douenaldus
de Heselrigg, to him and Joan, his wife, for acquiring to them and his
heirs, from Isabel late the wife of Robert de Bowes a moiety and a
third part of a moiety of the manors of Esselyngton, Wytyngham,
Throunton and Barton, and the advowson of the hospital of Bidlesmore,
held in chief, and entering therein without licence; and licence for
them to retain the same [Calendar of Patent Rolls, Edward 3, Vol 12, p
301]
2. Notes for Elizabeth:
a) 2 October 1361, (1) Henry de Cleseby (2) Elizabeth, widow of Robert
de Bowes. Feoffment for life of all lands and tenements of (1) in West
Aukland from the gift and feoffment of Robert, the son and heir of
Robert de Bowes, lying in a place called Boltonfeld. After death of
Elizabeth to William, son of Robert de Bowes and his heirs forever and
in default to Thomas, brother of William and his heirs and in default,
½ to Margaret, sister of Thomas and her heirs and ½ to Alice, sister
of Margaret, in default of both, to next heirs of Robert de Bowes
Witnesses: John Pollard; Thomas de Menell; William de Wakerfeld; John
Artays; Thomas Ward and others [Durham Record Office, Strathmore
Estate, D/St/D7/4].
b) Bowes, Elizabeth widow of Robert del. Inq. p.m. taken 14 November
1384 at Durham. William, aged 30, is the son of the said Robert del
Bowes [45th Annual Report of the Deputy Keeper of the Public Records
(London: 1885) p 163].
c) 20 October 1385, Order to the escheator in Northumberland to take
into the king's hand the lands of Elizabeth late the wife of John
Heron, 'chivaler ' [Calendar of Fine Rolls, Vol 10, p 143]
d) In a very long entry in the Close Rolls, dated 1 May 1390, ..
Elizabeth who was wife of Robert de Eslyngton knight, ... Elizabeth
who was wife of John Heroun knight was at her death seised of a third
part of the said manor and moieties in dower by endowment of the said
Robert her husband ... William de Bowes son of Elizabeth is her next
heir of blood, and of full age [Calendar of Close Rolls, Richard 2,
Vol 4, pp 132-3]
Regards,
John
John Watson
Hi all,
A correction:
Before making my post concerning the Bowes family yesterday I had come
across references to Isabel, wife of Robert Bowes and also to
Elizabeth the wife of Robert Bowes and I wrongly assumed that there
were two Robert Bowes. On sorting out my notes today, I realise that
there was only one Robert Bowes, with a wife who appears as Isabel in
some records and Elizabeth in others.
Elizabeth, the wife of Robert Bowes, son of Adam Bowes, is stated in
some pedigrees of the Bowes family to be daughter of John de Lilburn.
She married firstly, Sir Robert de Eslington, secondly Robert Bowes
and thirdly Sir John Heron.
Sir Robert de Eslington, of Eslington, Northumberland died before 12
February 1350, when at an inquisition after his death, it was found
that his heirs were his three daughters, Christiana, Elizabeth and
Isabel and that Christiana and Elizabeth are of full age, and Isabel
of the age of twelve years. The escheator was ordered to take the
fealties of Christiana, Elizabeth and Isabel and to make a partition
of the premises into three equal parts, and to deliver to the heirs
their pourparties, saving to the king any homage due, and saving to
Elizabeth late the wife of Robert her dower [1]. Elizabeth then
married Robert Bowes.
The lands which Elizabeth held in dower from her first husband Robert
Eslington included moieties of the manor of Eslington and moieties of
the towns of Whittingham, Thrunton and Barton, in Northumberland.
Robert Bowes held these lands in right of his wife Elizabeth and
enfeoffed John Hesilrig and Richard Rok in them [2]. After the death
of Robert Bowes, Elizabeth enfeoffed the same lands to Donald
Hesilrig. On 6 February 1363, the king pardoned Douenaldus de
Heselrigg and Joan, his wife, for acquiring to them and his heirs,
from Isabel [Elizabeth] late the wife of Robert de Bowes a moiety and
a third part of a moiety of the manors of Esselyngton, Wytyngham,
Throunton and Barton, and the advowson of the hospital of Bidlesmore,
held in chief, and entering therein without licence; and licence for
them to retain the same [3].
Robert Bowes was dead before 2 October 1361 according to this record
in the Durham Record Office: (1) Henry de Cleseby (2) Elizabeth, widow
of Robert de Bowes. Feoffment for life of all lands and tenements of
(1) in West Aukland from the gift and feoffment of Robert, the son and
heir of Robert de Bowes, lying in a place called Boltonfeld. After
death of Elizabeth to William, son of Robert de Bowes and his heirs
forever and in default to Thomas, brother of William and his heirs and
in default, ½ to Margaret, sister of Thomas and her heirs and ½ to
Alice, sister of Margaret, in default of both, to next heirs of Robert
de Bowes [4].
Presumably, Robert the son and heir of Robert Bowes died before his
father. It is unlikely that Robert was the son of Elizabeth as he
would have been less than 10 years old in 1361 which seems young to be
involved in land transactions.
William and his younger brother Thomas were the sons of Robert Bowes
and Elizabeth. The inquisition post mortem of Thomas Bowes, taken on
10 October 1379 at Durham found that William, aged 24, is his brother
and next heir [5] so William was born about 1354.
Elizabeth married thirdly, Sir John Heron. I am not sure who this Sir
John Heron was, but he was possibly the younger son of Roger Heron, of
Ford, Northumberland who is described as "chivaler " in a suit in 1372
[6]. He was the father of William Heron, Lord Say, who in 1372 was
defendant, in a suit for the manor of Hertesheved and was presumably
aged over 21 at this date [7], so Elizabeth cannot have been his
mother.
The inquisition post mortem of Elizabeth widow of Robert del Bowes,
taken on 14 November 1384 at Durham found that William, aged 30, is
the son of the said Robert del Bowes [8].
After the death of Elizabeth in 1384, there was a dispute over the
lands in Northumberland that she she held in dower from her first
husband Robert de Eslington. The rival claimants were William
Hesilrig, the brother of Donald Hesilrig who had been enfeoffed by
Robert Bowes and William de la Val, son of William de la Val and
Christiana Eslington, Elizabeth's daughter by her first marriage.
There is a very long entry in the Calendar of Close Rolls on 1 May
1390, which I won't include here, and which recounts the various
inquisitions held concerning this land. In one of the inquisitions it
is stated that "Elizabeth who was wife of John Heroun knight was at
her death seised of a third part of the said manor and moieties in
dower by endowment of the said Robert [Eslington] her husband ... and
that William de Bowes son of Elizabeth is her next heir of blood, and
of full age [9].
So I hope that sorts out the confusion.
Regards,
John
References:
1. Calendar of Fine Rolls, Vol 6, pp 206-7
2. Calendar of Patent Rolls, Edward 3, Vol 12, p 33
3. Calendar of Patent Rolls, Edward 3, Vol 12, p 301
4. Durham Record Office, Strathmore Estate, D/St/D7/4
5. 45th Annual Report of the Deputy Keeper of the Public Records
(London: 1885) p 162
6. Complete Peerage, Vol 6, p 492, note (i) citing De Banco R., 448,
m. 398
7. Complete Peerage, Vol 6, p 492
8. 45th Annual Report of the Deputy Keeper of the Public Records
(London: 1885) p 163
9. Calendar of Close Rolls, Richard 2, Vol 4, pp 132-3
John Watson
Hi Wanda,
To come back to your original question. In a letter dated Jan. 14,
1831, Robert Surtees, the author of the History of Durham states"Is
there any positive authority for a connection in blood between Trayne
(of Streatlam) and Baliol, or Baliol and de la Hay?" [1]. He couldn't
find any.
How the Bowes family came to own the manor of Streatlam is uncertain,
and rather than through inheritance, it may have been by purchase.
The manor and castle of Streatlam was originally owned by the family
of Trayne. Sir John Trayne who died after 1290 may have married a de
la Haye, but whether she had any connections to the Baliol family is
doubtful.
On 25 March 1311, (or more probably 1310) John Traynet, son of John
Traynet, knt., of Streatlam, granted to Peter de la Haye of
Spaldington (d. 1347), his cousin, his manor of Streatlam [2].
This John Trayne died around 1311 and his heir was another John
Trayne, son of his brother Thomas. This John Trayne died about 1324
when, Peter de la Haye in a petition to the king shows that he was
enfeoffed of the manor of Streatlam. John Lesturmy who had the custody
of John Treynete came and threatened Haye and forced him by the
authority of Hugh le Despenser to give the manor by his charter
jointly to John Treynete, the next heir of Haye's feoffor, and to
Margaret, Lesturmy's daughter who had married Treynete. Treynete
enfeoffed Haye in his lands in Yorkshire which were not of a third of
the value, and Treynete is now dead and Margaret is tenant. Haye for
his hardship requests remedy [3].
So in 1324, Streatlam was occupied by the de la Hayes. Over 50 years
later, the grandson of Peter de la Haye, another Peter, granted the
manor to William Bowes.
On 21 December 1379, Grant and quitclaim made before the Corporation
of the city of York, by Peter, son and heir of Thomas de la Haye of
Spaldington, to William de Bowes, of his rights on the manor of
Streatlam and Stainton [4].
So the manor of Streatlam went from the Traynes, to the de la Hayes
then to the Bowes - but no sign of Baliols in this, or of any
inheritance through an Alice Trayne marrying Adam Bowes.
References:
1. Surtees Society, James Raine, A Memoir of Robert Surtees (Durham:
1852) p 430
2. Manchester University, John Rylands Library, Philips Charters, PHC/
251
3. Special Collections: Ancient Petitions SC 8/14/669
4. Manchester University, John Rylands Library: Phillips Charters,
PHC/254
WJho...@aol.com
In a message dated 11/9/2008 2:00:42 AM Pacific Standard Time,
Watso...@gmail.com writes:
After the death of Elizabeth in 1384, there was a dispute over the
lands in Northumberland that she she held in dower from her first
husband Robert de Eslington. The rival claimants were William
Hesilrig, the brother of Donald Hesilrig who had been enfeoffed by
Robert Bowes and William de la Val, son of William de la Val and
Christiana Eslington, Elizabeth's daughter by her first marriage>>
-----------
Who can bring this Delaval line forward to connect it with that
John Delaval (1493-1562) who married Mary Cary?
I would very much be interested in this connection
Will Johnson
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WJho...@aol.com
In a message dated 11/9/2008 4:05:30 AM Pacific Standard Time,
Watso...@gmail.com writes:
On 21 December 1379, Grant and quitclaim made before the Corporation
of the city of York, by Peter, son and heir of Thomas de la Haye of
Spaldington, to William de Bowes, of his rights on the manor of
Streatlam and Stainton [4].>>
--------
But could this not just be a grant of any remainder he might have in the
Manors ?
That is, he could have still a sixth or twelth or a reversion of something
of other.
He's only granted his rights. Right? or Wrong
jhigg...@yahoo.com
> In a message dated 11/9/2008 2:00:42 AM Pacific Standard Time,
>
>
> After the death of Elizabeth in 1384, there was a dispute over the
> lands in Northumberland that she she held in dower from her first
> husband Robert de Eslington. The rival claimants were William
> Hesilrig, the brother of Donald Hesilrig who had been enfeoffed by
> Robert Bowes and William de la Val, son of William de la Val and
> Christiana Eslington, Elizabeth's daughter by her first marriage>>
>
> -----------
> Who can bring this Delaval line forward to connect it with that
> John Delaval (1493-1562) who married Mary Cary?
>
> I would very much be interested in this connection
>
> Will Johnson
This particular Delaval line does not connect (at least via descent)
to the line which contains John Delaval who mar. Mary Carey. The
William Delaval who mar. Christiana Eslington had an elder brother Sir
Robert, of Newsham, whose granddaughter and apparently eventual heir
married a man named John Wodman [sic] alias Horsley. Their son James
Horsley alias James Woodman assumed the surname of Delaval, and it was
his grandson Sir John who married Mary Carey.
For detailed pedigrees showing this connection, see vol. 9 of the
[new] "History of Northumberland" or vol. 1 of W. Percy Hedley's
"Northumberland Families".
WJho...@aol.com
because this Sir Robert Delaval of Newsham whom you so helpfully provided is an
ancestor of Prince William and Harry, through the Cary marriage I mentioned.
Will
jhigg...@yahoo.com
I should perhaps have added that you may find slightly different
versions of this connection in various Burke's volumes of the 19th
century (e.g., Commoners or Extinct Baronetcies) which are probably on-
line (and appear to be the basis for Stirnet's version of this
family). I'd be inclined to rely on the sources I mentioned rather
than these old Burke's volumes.