Ancestry of Thomas de London, lord of Kidwelly?

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roger_...@ksg04.harvard.edu

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Jan 25, 2005, 11:48:39 PM1/25/05
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Dear Group,

Thomas de London, lord of Kidwelly in Carmarthenshire, Wales, (dead by
1221 per Weiss) married Eve and had Hawise de Londres who married
Patrick de Chaworth.

The ancestry below of Thomas de London is supposed to come from Turton
at 116. Can anyone confirm?

I believe the ancestry of Mabel de Cantelou is unknown but I obtained
the following from Jim Weber's website, located at:
http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=jweber&id=I07985

Generation No. 1

1. Thomas de Londres , of London, Lord of Kidwelly was born ABT 1183 in
Kidwelly, Carmarthenshire, Wales. He was the son of 2. Maurice de
Londres , Lord of Kidwelly and 3. Mabel de Cantelou. He married Eva (de
Torrington?) AFT 1210 in 2nd husband, possible daughter of Matthew de
Torrington. She was born ABT 1183 in England.

Generation No. 2

2. Maurice de Londres , Lord of Kidwelly was born ABT 1160 in Kidwelly,
Carmanthenshire, Wales. He was the son of 4. William de Londres , Sir.

3. Mabel de Cantelou was born ABT 1167 in Northamptonshire, England,
and died 1267. She was the daughter of 6. Walter de Cantelou.


Child of Mabel de Cantelou and Maurice de Londres , Lord of Kidwelly
is:
1. i. Thomas de Londres , of London, Lord of Kidwelly was born ABT
1183 in Kidwelly, Carmarthenshire, Wales. He married Eva de Torrington
AFT 1210 in 2nd husband, daughter of Matthew de Torrington. She was
born ABT 1183 in England.


Generation No. 3

4. William de Londres , Sir was born ABT 1137 in Kidwelly,
Carmanthenshire, Wales, and died ABT 1200. He was the son of 8. Simon
de Londres , Sir and 9. Sibylla.


Child of William de Londres , Sir is:
2. i. Maurice de Londres , Lord of Kidwelly was born ABT 1160 in
Kidwelly, Carmanthenshire, Wales. He married Mabel de Cantelou,
daughter of Walter de Cantelou. She was born ABT 1167 in
Northamptonshire, England, and died 1267.

6. Walter de Cantelou was born 1126 in Longueville, St Saviour, Jersey,
Channel Isles, and died ABT 1182. He was the son of 12. Walter de
Cantelou.


Children of Walter de Cantelou are:
i. Maud de Cantelou was born ABT 1155 in Longueville, St Saviour,
Jersey, Channel Isles. She married Henry (Stephen) de Longchamp , of
Wilton, son of Hugh II de Longchamp , of Wilton and Emma de St. Leger.
He was born 1158 in Wilton Castle, Ross-on-Wye, Herefordshire, England,
and died 1212.
ii. William I de Cantelou , of Aston Cantlow was born ABT 1158 in
Aston Cantlow, Alcester, Warwickshire, England, and died 7 APR 1239 in
Ellesborough, Wycombe, Buckinghamshire, England. He married Macelin
Braci ABT 1184, daughter of Adulph Braci. She was born 1163 in
Shropshire, England.
3. iii. Mabel de Cantelou was born ABT 1167 in Northamptonshire,
England, and died 1267. She married Maurice de Londres , Lord of
Kidwelly, son of William de Londres , Sir. He was born ABT 1160 in
Kidwelly, Carmanthenshire, Wales.


Generation No. 4

8. Simon de Londres , Sir was born ABT 1110 in Kidwelly,
Carmanthenshire, Wales. He was the son of 16. Maurice de Londres.

9. Sibylla was born ABT 1115 in England.


Child of Sibylla and Simon de Londres , Sir is:
4. i. William de Londres , Sir was born ABT 1137 in Kidwelly,
Carmanthenshire, Wales, and died ABT 1200.

12. Walter de Cantelou was born ABT 1102 in Canteleu, Seine-Inferieure,
Normandy, France. He was the son of 24. Gilbert de Cantelou.


Child of Walter de Cantelou is:
6. i. Walter de Cantelou was born 1126 in Longueville, St Saviour,
Jersey, Channel Isles, and died ABT 1182.


Generation No. 5

16. Maurice de Londres was born ABT 1080 in Kidwelly, Carmanthenshire,
Wales, and died ABT 1128. He was the son of 32. William de London and
33. Margaret verch Caradog.


Child of Maurice de Londres is:
8. i. Simon de Londres , Sir was born ABT 1110 in Kidwelly,
Carmanthenshire, Wales. He married Sibylla. She was born ABT 1115 in
England.


24. Gilbert de Cantelou was born ABT 1074 in Canteleu,
Seine-Inferieure, Normandy, France.

Child of Gilbert de Cantelou is:
12. i. Walter de Cantelou was born ABT 1102 in Canteleu,
Seine-Inferieure, Normandy, France.


Generation No. 6

32. William de London was born ABT 1050 in Kidwelly, Carmanthenshire,
Wales, and died BEF 1126. He was the son of 64. Simon de London.

33. Margaret verch Caradog was born ABT 1055 in Wales.


Child of Margaret verch Caradog and William de London is:
16. i. Maurice de Londres was born ABT 1080 in Kidwelly,
Carmanthenshire, Wales, and died ABT 1128.
Many thanks for the assistance!

Roger

Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com

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Jan 27, 2005, 9:12:46 AM1/27/05
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Dear Roger ~

My research (see copy of my earlier post below) indicates that Hawise
de London, wife of Patrick de Chaworth, was the heiress of Mabel de
Cantelowe in 1267, but no relationship is specified in the record. As
such, unless further documentation is forthcoming, I believe it is
overly optimistic to identify Hawise de London as Mabel de Cantelowe's
granddaughter on the basis of this record alone. It is certainly
possible that Mabel de Cantelowe was Hawise de London's paternal
grandmother, but it is equally possible that Mabel was Hawise's
paternal aunt or cousin, or a younger 2nd wife of her grandfather.
Also, I hasten to point out that Cantelowe was not necessarily Mabel's
maiden name. Rather, unless she was from a particularly lofty
pedigree, the surname Cantelowe is probably Mabel's married name at the
time of her death, not her maiden name. If anyone has additional
records which would shed light on Mabel de Cantelowe' kinship to Hawise
de London, I would appreciate hearing from them here on the newsgroup.


Elsewhere, I note that you have identified Hawise de London's mother,
Eve, as a possible daughter of Matthew de Torrington. This allegation
is doubtless derived from the usually reliable work, English Baronies,
by Sanders. Sanders showed that Eve's son by her 1st marriage, Henry
de Tracy, had a one fifth share of the Torrington estates. On this
basis, good people such as Mr. Weber have postulated that Henry de
Tracy's mother was a Torrington heiress. However, this is a rare
instance of where a person bought his interest and did not inherit it,
which fact Sanders overlooked. As such, there is no descent whatsoever
from the Torrington family. Rather, Eve's maritagium appears to have
been an estate in Westbury, Wiltshire which she held of the Fitz Warn
family. As such, she was almost certainly the daughter of Fulk Fitz
Warin, of Whittington, Shropshire, by his wife, Hawise de Dinan. The
given name Eve ran in the Fitz Warin family.

I further note that your post makes no mention of Hawise de London's
childless first marriage to Walter de Brewes, younger son of William de
Brewes by his wife, Maud, daughter of Richard de Clare, Earl of
Hertford. In Michaelmas term 1233 Walter and Hawise were suing the
abbot of Gloucester for the church of Hannington, Wiltshire. Walter de
Brewes died before 14 January 1234. Further details of Walter de
Brewes and his marriage to Hawise de London can be found in my
forthcoming book, Magna Carta Ancestry, scheduled for publication in
June 2005.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: www.royalancestry.net

+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +

COPY OF EARLIER POST:

Douglas Richardson Oct 7 2003, 10:33 am show options
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
From: royalances...@msn.com (Douglas Richardson) - Find messages by
this author
Date: 7 Oct 2003 10:33:18 -0700
Local: Tues, Oct 7 2003 10:33 am
Subject: Mabel de Cantelowe and Hawise de London

Dear Newsgroup ~

In 1998 Bill Kullman "on the Oregon Trail" posted a query about the
mother of Hawise de London, wife of Patrick de Chaworth. Hawise de
London figures in the ancestry of many people here on the newsgroup,
as she was the grandmother of Maud de Chaworth, wife of Henry of
Lancaster, Earl of Lancaster. In his post, Bill asked if Hawise's
mother was named Eve, or Mabel de Cantelowe/Cantilupe. Leo van de Pas
replied that according to Turton, Hawise's parents were Maurice de
"Londres" and his wife, Mabel de "Cantilupe." For interest sake, I've
copied both Bill's original post and Leo's reply below.

Elsewhere, I find in the newsgroup archives that John Ravilious has
identified Hawise de London's parents as Thomas de London and his
wife, Eve, widow of Oliver de Tracy. I believe John has Hawise'
parents correctly indentified. Who then was Mabel de Cantelowe?

My research indicates that Mabel de Cantelowe did exist and that she
was related in some manner to Hawise de London. This is indicated by
the following item which I found recently in the Patent Rolls:

Date: 2 Aug. 1267.

"Restitution to Hawise de London, as the king understands by
inquisition that she is heir to Mabel de Cantilupo, of an itinerant
forge in the forest of Dene, which Mabel had there and for which the
king some time ago gave Mabel 10l. a year for life, to hold to the
said Hawise in the same manner as Mabel and other ancestors of the
said Hawise used to hold it in the time of King John and other of the
king's predecessors, kings of England. By K., Sir Edward, and Roger
de Leyburn." [Reference: Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1266-1272 (1913):
94]

I also found mention of Mabel de Cantelowe in the inquisition of
Hawise de London's husband, Patrick de Chaworth (died 1257), which
information I have abstracted below:

Inquisition of Patrick de Chaworces alias de Chaors, de Chauurces, de
Chawrces, de Chawerches, etc.

Writ to the sheriff of Gloucester, 23 Sept. 42 Hen. III

Wilts. Extent, Sunday the eve of St. Martin.

Berewik manor (full extent given with names of tenants), including
pastures called Kyggesmers and la Sterte. 60s. rent are held by
exchange for life by Mabel de Cantelo alias de Cantilupe, and ought,
with the advowson of the church, to revert to the manor after her
death. [Reference: Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, vol. 1
(1904): 113-115].

The above record merely states that the manor and advowson of Berwick,
Wiltshire was held by Mabel de Cantelowe for life "by exchange" and
that on the death of Mabel, the property was to revert to Patrick de
Chaworth's heirs. There is no indication in the inquisition if or how
Patrick de Chaworth is related to Mabel de Cantelowe.

Query: If Hawise de London's parents were Thomas de London and his
wife, Eve, who then was Mabel de Cantelowe and how was she related to
Hawise? Comments are invited.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

E-mail: royalances...@msn.com

- - - - - - - - - - - -

From: leovd...@iinet.net.au (Leo van de Pas)
Subject: Re: de Londres
Date: 1998/04/23

Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19980424024217.00cd3...@mail.iinet.net.au>#1/1

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Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval

At 07:21 PM 4/23/98 -0700, you wrote:
>I don't suppose that anyone knows who is the mother of Hawise de
Londres, d.
>1274, Mabel de Cantilupe or Eva de Tracy who both seem to have m. Sir
Thomas
>de Londres, Lord Kidwelly ?

>I'd appreciate

>bill kullman
>on the old oregon trail

Dear Bill,
According to Turton, page 97, her parents are :
Maurice de Londres and Mabel de Cantilupe
Mabel died in 1267, but no parents are recorded for her.
Hope this helps,
Leo van de Pas

Reply

©2005 Google

Bell HS

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Jan 27, 2005, 9:20:55 AM1/27/05
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Hi,

I am trying to confirm the parents to William Hussey (b. c.1375-90 Sleaford,
Kent) married to Elizabeth/Margaret Lumley. They had a son John Hussey
married to Elizabeth Sheffield/Neffield.

I have seen Elizabeth's parents being Ralph Lumley 1st Baron Lumley and
Eleanor Neville.

Who are William Hussey's parents? Ralph Hussey & Alice de Beauchamp or Ralph
Hussey & a daughter of Staunton or somebody else.

Any help will be appreciated

Florent Coache
Napierville

Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com

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Jan 27, 2005, 11:25:13 AM1/27/05
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Dear Newsgroup ~

For interest's sake, I've posted below the names of the numerous
contingent of the 17th Century colonial American immigrants who descend
from Hawise de London, wife successively of Walter de Brewes and
Patrick de Chaworth. The various descents can be worked out using my
books, Plantagenet Ancestry (2004) and the forthcoming Magna Carta
Ancestry (scheduled for publication in June 2005).

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: www.royalancestry.net

Robert Abell, Dannett Abney, Elizabeth Alsop, William Asfordby, Barbara
Aubrey, Anne Baynton, Marmaduke Beckwith, Richard & William Bernard,
John Bevan, Essex Beville, William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston,
Joseph Bolles, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth Bosvile, Mary Bourchier, George,
Giles, & Robert Brent, Stephen Bull, Nathaniel Burrough, Elizabeth
Butler, Christopher Calthorpe, Charles Calvert, Edward Carleton, Grace
Chetwode, James & Norton Claypoole, William Clopton, St. Leger Codd,
Elizabeth Coytemore, Francis Dade, Humphrey Davie, Frances, Jane &
Katherine Deighton, Anne Derehaugh, Edward Digges, Thomas Dudley,
Rowland Ellis, William Farrar, John Fenwick, John Fisher, Henry Fleete,
Edward Foliot, John Fenwick, Thomas Gerard, William Goddard, Muriel
Gurdon, Mary Gye, Elizabeth & John Harleston, Elizabeth Haynes, Warham
Horsmanden, Anne Humphrey, Daniel & John Humphrey, Henry Isham, Edmund
Jennings, Edmund, Edward, Richard & Matthew Kempe, Mary Launce,
Hannah, Samuel & Sarah Levis, Thomas Ligon, Nathaniel Littleton, Thomas
Lloyd, Gabriel, Roger & Sarah Ludlow, Thomas Lunsford, Agnes Mackworth,
Anne, Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Oliver Manwaring, Elizabeth Marshall,
Anne Mauleverer, Richard More, John Nelson, Philip & Thomas Nelson,
Joshua & Rebecca Owen, Thomas Owsley, John Oxenbridge, Richard
Palgrave, Herbert Pelham, Robert Peyton, William & Elizabeth Pole,
Henry & William Randolph, Edward Raynsford, George Reade, William
Rodney, Thomas Rudyard, Katherine Saint Leger, Richard Saltonstall,
Anthony Savage, William Skepper, Diana & Grey Skipwith, Mary Johanna
Somerset, John Stockman, John Throckmorton, Samuel & William Torrey,
Margaret Tyndall, Jemima Waldegrave, John & Lawrence Washington, Olive
Welby, John West, Amy Willis, Thomas Wingfield, Mary Wolseley, Hawte
Wyatt, George Yate.

CE Wood

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Jan 27, 2005, 1:38:00 PM1/27/05
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Hi Doug,

I presume you have changed your opinion as to the parentage of Eve,
widow of Oliver Tracy, wife of Thomas de Londres, and mother to Hawise
de Londres.

In an earlier post of 21 Nov 2000, regarding Eve de Tracy, daughter of
the first marriage to Oliver Tracy, you stated: "Eve de Tracy, daughter
of Oliver de Tracy, baron of Barnstaple, Devon, by his wife, Eve,
probably one of the daughters and co-heiresses of Matthew de
Torrington. Eve's identity and parentage are proved by suits published
in the Curia Regis Rolls."

In that post, she IS a Torrington, whereas you here state she was NOT a
Torrington, but the daughter of Fulk FitzWarin and Hawise de Dinan.

Which is it?

Thanks for all your good research,

CE Wood

Rosie Bevan

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Jan 27, 2005, 6:32:32 PM1/27/05
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Douglas Richardson royala...@msn.com wrote:
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> For interest's sake, I've posted below the names of the numerous
> contingent of the 17th Century colonial American immigrants who
descend
> from Hawise de London, wife successively of Walter de Brewes and
> Patrick de Chaworth.
<snip>

I hope your book will also include the second husband of Hawise de
Londres whom you seem to have missed - Henry de Truberville, Seneschal
of Gascony who died in 1240 when Hawise was apportioned dower [Close
Rolls 1237-1242 p.168].

Cheers

Rosie

roger_...@ksg04.harvard.edu

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Jan 28, 2005, 2:03:31 AM1/28/05
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Thanks to you and to everyone else who replied for the corrections.
The Cantilupe connection did indeed seem to be unknown, as I could find
no reputable source for it. I was curious though whether the ancestry
of Thomas de London was accurate...I could find no confirmation of that
either.... Again, many thanks to all for the assistance.
Best wishes,

Roger

Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com

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Jan 28, 2005, 2:25:36 AM1/28/05
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Dear Carolyn ~

Thank you for your good post.

In answer to your question, when I mentioned the evidence in the Curia
Regis Rolls which proved Eve's identity and parentage, I was speaking
of Eve, daughter of Oliver de Tracy, NOT his wife, Eve. As I stated in
my original post, Eve de Tracy the daughter married Warin de
Bassingbourne. The evidence to prove this marriage is found in Curia
Regis Rolls. So, no I haven't changed my position on this marriage.

Regarding the senior Eve, wife of Oliver de Tracy and Thomas de London,
it has commonly been thought that she was daughter and co-heiress of
Matthew de Torrington. This was thought probable, as Eve's son, Henry
de Tracy, is known to have had a one-fifth interest in the Torrington
family estates. However, in recent time, I've determined that Henry
de Tracy bought his share of the Torrington estates from one of the
Torrington heirs. This would necessarily exclude Henry's mother Eve
from being one of the Torrington heiresses.

My research indicates that Eve, widow of Oliver de Tracy and Thomas de
London, was instead a probable daughter of Fulk Fitz Warin, of
Whittington, Shropshire, by his wife, Hawise de Dinan. Eve's
maritagium appears to have consisted of land in Westbury, Wiltshire,
which property she held under the Fitz Warin family. The name Eve runs
in the Fitz Warin family. Also, we know that Eve de Tracy had a
daughter Hawise de London, presumably named in honor of her mother,
Hawise de Dinan. Chronology, naming patterns, and land ownership are
all agreeable.

If anyone has particulars which would shed further light on the Fitz
Warin-Tracy-London connection, I'd appreciate hearing from them here on
the newsgroup. Needless to say, this is a most interesting group of
families. I imagine most posters here on the newsgroup descend from
these people.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: www.royalancestry.net


CE Wood

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Jan 28, 2005, 12:39:29 PM1/28/05
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Hi Douglas,

Thank you for such a clear and concise explanation: your specialty.

CE Wood

Douglas Richardson royala...@msn.com wrote:
> Dear Carolyn ~
>
> Thank you for your good post.
>
> In answer to your question, when I mentioned the evidence in the
Curia
> Regis Rolls which proved Eve's identity and parentage, I was speaking
> of Eve, daughter of Oliver de Tracy, NOT his wife, Eve. As I stated
in
> my original post, Eve de Tracy the daughter married Warin de
> Bassingbourne. The evidence to prove this marriage is found in Curia
> Regis Rolls. So, no I haven't changed my position on this marriage.
>
> Regarding the senior Eve, wife of Oliver de Tracy and Thomas de
London,
> it has commonly been thought that she was daughter and co-heiress of
> Matthew de Torrington. This was thought probable, as Eve's son,
Henry
> de Tracy, is known to have had a one-fifth interest in the Torrington
> family estates. However, in recent time, I've determined that Henry
> de Tracy bought his share of the Torrington estates from one of the
> Torrington heirs. This would necessarily exclude Henry's mother Eve

> from being oneof the Torrington heiresses.

Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com

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Jan 28, 2005, 3:06:21 PM1/28/05
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Dear Roger ~

You're quite welcome.

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