Possible line from Tostig?
Stewart Baldwin
reminded me of a _possible_ descent from his brother Tostig, who
fought with Harald III of Norway in the Battle of Stamford Bridge, and
lost his life there. The family outline is as follows, taken from
Heimskringla (with the usual apologies if my transliteration from the
Icelandic alphabet is a bit sloppy).
[??Tostig??]
________________|__________________________
| |
Skuli md. Guthrun, dau. of Nefsteinn Ketil Krok
___|
|
Asolf of Rein md. Thora, dau. of Skopti, son of Ogmund
|__________
|
Guthorm of Rein
|
Cecilia of Norway md.Barth md. Ragnfrith
__________________| |_________
| |
Inge II king of Norway [by which wife?]
Skuli
|
Hakon IV king of Norway md. Margaret
(1217-1263) |
|
V
and so forth, with numerous descents to modern times, including the
current monarchs of Norway, Denmark, and the UK (and probably others).
Skuli, the father-in-law of king Hakon IV, was a friend of Snorri
Sturluson, author of Heimskringla, so he had first-hand information
which makes it reasonable to accept the genealogy back to the earlier
Skuli. The doubtful connection comes with the older Skuli, who is
called the son of Tostig in one edition of Heimskringla to which I
have access, but is only "of noble English extraction" in another
edition of Heimskringla. Are there different manuscripts of
Heimskringla involved here, or is one of the translations bad? Is
there any solid information about which is the earlier version?
Stewart Baldwin
Aardy R. DeVarque
>Recent postings on the family of king Harold II of England have
>reminded me of a _possible_ descent from his brother Tostig, who
[...]
>Skuli, the father-in-law of king Hakon IV, was a friend of Snorri
>Sturluson, author of Heimskringla, so he had first-hand information
>which makes it reasonable to accept the genealogy back to the earlier
>Skuli.
I remember coming across a reference to this line back when I first got
hooked into medieval genealogy; unfortunately, that was back before I
realized that notating the source of a piece of info is important.
All I can say that the below information is from a history of ancient
Norway, and so very well may have used the Heimskringla as a source, but I
have no way of knowing (I tried checking that library's on-line catalog, but
it's not accepting open telnets right now), though it looks likely, from the
similarity of this information to what you posted.
Some almost-quoting paraphrases:
"Haakon 'the Old' married the daughter of Earl Skule Baardson, who was the
brother of Earl Haakon Galen. She was 10 at the time of the betrothal, the
marriage took place a few years later...in Bergen in April 1225; she was
about 17, he was about 20."
"Haakon Galen was a son of Sigurd Mouth's daughter Cecilia and Folkvid the
Lawman."
"Skule, the son of Earl Tostig [Godwineson] was the ancestor of King Inge
Baardson and the arch-intriguer Skule."
Aardy R. DeVarque
Feudalism: Serf & Turf
Kaare Albert Lie
>What is the exact bibliograpgic information on your editions of
>HEIMSKRINGLA? Like you, I have Lee M. Hollander's translation, which shows
>your lineage on page 660, and has the words "of noble English
>extraction." But I have seen at least one earlier translation, which may
>be based on a different text and may state the Tostig connection, as you
>said.
> I'll post your request to Oldnorsenet--maybe somebody there can help.
Heimskringla, ed. Finnur Jonsson, Oslo 1966, p. 510, says about
Skuli and his brother Ketill krok that they were both noble men
of noble English family ( ... badhir gofgir menn ok kyrnstorir af
Englandi). Nothing more is said about his ancestors.
But there are other sources. Fagrskinna, ed. Bjarni Einarsson,
Reykjavik 1985, p. 290, says "Skuli, sonr Tosta jarls." That is,
"Skuli, son of Earl Toste".
And Morkinskinna (ed. Finnur Jonsson, Copenhagen 1931, p. 283) is
even clearer. Here we read "Sculi s. Tosta iarls Gothina s." -
"Skuli, son of Earl Toste, son of Gothwin".
What is Oldnorsenet - and where do I find it?
Yours,
-----------------------------------------------------------
Kaare Albert Lie
Norway
-----------------------------------------------------------
R. Leutner
I haven't made time to pursue the question since I'm not sure yet I can
claim the descent anyway, but Weis 34:23 says Gunnilda, daughter of
Gospatric I & the famous "sister of Edmund", married "Orm, son of Ketel,
Baron Kendal." Is this Ketel of Kendal kin to Ketel Krok (as it were)?
Thanks.
On Tue, 12 Mar 1996, Jared Olar wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Mar 1996, Stewart Baldwin wrote:
>
> > Recent postings on the family of king Harold II of England have
> > reminded me of a _possible_ descent from his brother Tostig, who
> > fought with Harald III of Norway in the Battle of Stamford Bridge, and
> > lost his life there. The family outline is as follows, taken from
> > Heimskringla (with the usual apologies if my transliteration from the
> > Icelandic alphabet is a bit sloppy).
> >
> > [??Tostig??]
> > ________________|__________________________
> > | |
> > Skuli md. Guthrun, dau. of Nefsteinn Ketil Krok
> > ___|
> > |
> > Asolf of Rein md. Thora, dau. of Skopti, son of Ogmund
> > |__________
> > |
> > Guthorm of Rein
> > |
> > Cecilia of Norway md.Barth md. Ragnfrith
> > __________________| |_________
> > | |
> > Inge II king of Norway [by which wife?]
> > Skuli
> > |
> > Hakon IV king of Norway md. Margaret
> > (1217-1263) |
> > |
> > V
> >
> > and so forth, with numerous descents to modern times, including the
> > current monarchs of Norway, Denmark, and the UK (and probably others).
> > Skuli, the father-in-law of king Hakon IV, was a friend of Snorri
> > Sturluson, author of Heimskringla, so he had first-hand information
> > which makes it reasonable to accept the genealogy back to the earlier
> > Skuli. The doubtful connection comes with the older Skuli, who is
> > called the son of Tostig in one edition of Heimskringla to which I
> > have access, but is only "of noble English extraction" in another
> > edition of Heimskringla. Are there different manuscripts of
> > Heimskringla involved here, or is one of the translations bad? Is
> > there any solid information about which is the earlier version?
> >
> > Stewart Baldwin
> >
> ---------------------------------------
> Hi Stewart.
> Although I posted the above message to Oldnorsenet, I actually was
> able to find relevant information today, before anyone at Oldnorsenet was
> able to reply! So, here it is:
>
> Everyman's Library has an edition of Samuel Laing's translation of
> HEIMSKRINGLA, in two volumes (revised with an introduction and notes by
> Jacqueline Simpson). Volume two, page 236, says the following:
>
> "Harald Godwinsson had been king of England nine months and a half when
> he fell, and there was none remaining of Earl Godwin's descendants but
> Earl Toste's sons Ketel and Skule, and Gyda the daughter of Harald."
>
> Volume two, page 237, says:
>
> "There came also with Olaf over the West sea Skule, a son of Earl Toste,
> and who since has been called the king's foster-son, and his brother
> Ketel Krok."
>
> However, Hollander's translation of HEIMSKRINGLA does not mention
> anything about Tostig as the father of Skuli and Ketil. The reason is
> made clear in Simpson's notes. On page 235 she says the following
> concerning the genealogical register in which the quote of page 236 appears:
>
> "This genealogical section is derived from Peder Clauss0n's work through
> the medium of Peringskio"ld's edition of the HEIMSKRINGLA . . . . The
> opening material is paralleled in genealogies found in FAGRSKINNA, ed.
> Finnur Jo'nsson, 1902-3, pp.296-8."
>
> Also, concerning the quotation from page 237, the note at the bottom of
> that page says:
>
> "The description of Skule (the king's foster-father, not foster-son as in
> the translation _passim_) as a son of Toste is not in the HEIMSKRINGLA,
> though it occurs in MORKINSKINNA and FAGRSKINNA . . . . The great Duke
> Skule (died 1240), Snorri's patron in Norway, reckoned his descent from
> this Skule, and Snorri may have omitted Toste's name on the duke's
> information."
>
> So, there you have it. Hollander omitted the information about Tostig
> being the father of Skuli and Ketil because that information is not
> rightly a part of Snorri's HEIMSKRINGLA. Simpson's suggestion that
> Snorri's silence about the Tostig connection was due to information from
> Duke Skuli himself is plausible enough. On the other hand, Snorri may
> have decided to omit the Tostig reference because he knew that earlier
> sources, such as texts now in the MORKINSKINNA and FAGRSKINNA
> manuscripts, was readily accessible. It was certainly not out of the
> ordinary for Snorri to leave out details which numerous other Icelandic
> sources testify were well-known to his contemporaries.
>
> However, the testimony of Icelandic sources (though not Snorri) that
> Skuli and Ketil were sons of Tostig is not necessarily acceptable
> evidence. At the least, it is by no means conclusive. I believe
> contemporary English sources are silent on this matter. But we know the
> Icelanders had access to English sources and documents--perhaps sources
> now lost? The Icelandic pedigrees are frequently reliable--this one may
> be too.
>
> This descent from Earl Tostig is certainly not implausible, or
> improbable. There is no reason to doubt it--but I fear there is no way
> conclusively to establish this descent.
>
> Jared Olar
> ol...@eagle.uid.edu
>
>
Jared Olar
> I haven't made time to pursue the question since I'm not sure yet I can
> claim the descent anyway, but Weis 34:23 says Gunnilda, daughter of
> Gospatric I & the famous "sister of Edmund", married "Orm, son of Ketel,
> Baron Kendal." Is this Ketel of Kendal kin to Ketel Krok (as it were)?
>
> Thanks.
>
> On Tue, 12 Mar 1996, Jared Olar wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 11 Mar 1996, Stewart Baldwin wrote:
> >
> > > Recent postings on the family of king Harold II of England have
> > > reminded me of a _possible_ descent from his brother Tostig, who
> > > fought with Harald III of Norway in the Battle of Stamford Bridge, and
> > > lost his life there. The family outline is as follows, taken from
> > > Heimskringla (with the usual apologies if my transliteration from the
> > > Icelandic alphabet is a bit sloppy).
> > >
> > > [??Tostig??]
> > > ________________|__________________________
> > > | |
> > > Skuli md. Guthrun, dau. of Nefsteinn Ketil Krok
----------------------------
I doubt such a connection is remotely provable. As a result of the numerous
viking incursions and settlements in England, the name KETEL or Ketil
became rather common. While it is true that many English families began
to give their children Scandinavian names (especially where there was
intermarriage, as in the case of the family of Earl Godwine), such names
may well indicate a family with primarily viking origins.
But I haven't done any intensive work on the Barons Kendal or
such families, so I cannot say whether there is any reason to link Ketel,
Baron Kendal, with Ketil Krok and his kin.
Jared Olar
ol...@eagle.uis.edu
Margaret Cormack
> >What is the exact bibliograpgic information on your editions of
> >HEIMSKRINGLA? Like you, I have Lee M. Hollander's translation, which shows
> >your lineage on page 660, and has the words "of noble English
> >extraction." But I have seen at least one earlier translation, which may
> >be based on a different text and may state the Tostig connection, as you
> >said.
> > I'll post your request to Oldnorsenet--maybe somebody there can help.
> Heimskringla, ed. Finnur Jonsson, Oslo 1966, p. 510, says about
> Skuli and his brother Ketill krok that they were both noble men
> of noble English family ( ... badhir gofgir menn ok kyrnstorir af
> Englandi). Nothing more is said about his ancestors.
> But there are other sources. Fagrskinna, ed. Bjarni Einarsson,
> Reykjavik 1985, p. 290, says "Skuli, sonr Tosta jarls." That is,
> "Skuli, son of Earl Toste".
> And Morkinskinna (ed. Finnur Jonsson, Copenhagen 1931, p. 283) is
> even clearer. Here we read "Sculi s. Tosta iarls Gothina s." -
> "Skuli, son of Earl Toste, son of Gothwin".
> What is Oldnorsenet - and where do I find it?
try sending the message SUBSCRIBE OLDNORSENET
to
> Yours,
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Kaare Albert Lie
> Norway
> -----------------------------------------------------------
Margaret Cormack corm...@ashley.cofc.edu
Dept. of Philosophy and Religion fax: 803-953-6388
College of Charleston tel: 953-8033
Charleston, SC 29424-0001
Jared Olar
> Jared Olar <ol...@UIS.EDU> wrote:
>
>
> >What is the exact bibliograpgic information on your editions of
> >HEIMSKRINGLA? Like you, I have Lee M. Hollander's translation, which shows
> >your lineage on page 660, and has the words "of noble English
> >extraction." But I have seen at least one earlier translation, which may
> >be based on a different text and may state the Tostig connection, as you
> >said.
> > I'll post your request to Oldnorsenet--maybe somebody there can help.
>
> Heimskringla, ed. Finnur Jonsson, Oslo 1966, p. 510, says about
> Skuli and his brother Ketill krok that they were both noble men
> of noble English family ( ... badhir gofgir menn ok kyrnstorir af
> Englandi). Nothing more is said about his ancestors.
>
> But there are other sources. Fagrskinna, ed. Bjarni Einarsson,
> Reykjavik 1985, p. 290, says "Skuli, sonr Tosta jarls." That is,
> "Skuli, son of Earl Toste".
>
> And Morkinskinna (ed. Finnur Jonsson, Copenhagen 1931, p. 283) is
> even clearer. Here we read "Sculi s. Tosta iarls Gothina s." -
> "Skuli, son of Earl Toste, son of Gothwin".
>
> What is Oldnorsenet - and where do I find it?
>
> Yours,
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Kaare Albert Lie
> Norway
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
First, I correction, or clarification of my comments yesterday concerning
Ketil Krok and Ketel, Baron Kendal. I forgot to mention that the
Icelandic sources which mention him assert that he and his brother Skuli
left England and settled in Norway. I doubt Ketel of Kendal did any such
thing--yet another reason why these contemporaries are not identical.
To subscribe to Oldnorsenet, send a message to list...@hum.gu.se
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Jared Olar
ol...@eagle.uis.edu
Stewart Baldwin
were the sons of Tostig (son of Godwine),
ka...@sn.no (Kaare Albert Lie) wrote:
(snip)
>Heimskringla, ed. Finnur Jonsson, Oslo 1966, p. 510, says about
>Skuli and his brother Ketill krok that they were both noble men
>of noble English family ( ... badhir gofgir menn ok kyrnstorir af
>Englandi). Nothing more is said about his ancestors.
>But there are other sources. Fagrskinna, ed. Bjarni Einarsson,
>Reykjavik 1985, p. 290, says "Skuli, sonr Tosta jarls." That is,
>"Skuli, son of Earl Toste".
>And Morkinskinna (ed. Finnur Jonsson, Copenhagen 1931, p. 283) is
>even clearer. Here we read "Sculi s. Tosta iarls Gothina s." -
>"Skuli, son of Earl Toste, son of Gothwin".
>What is Oldnorsenet - and where do I find it?
>Yours,
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>Kaare Albert Lie
>Norway
>-----------------------------------------------------------
Based on these entries, it looks like it could be argued either way
whether or not Skuli and Ketil were the sons of Tostig. Looking at
both sides, the arguments might go something like this.
AGAINST
In this case, one could argue that the versions making Tostig the
father of the two men were a late addition, in which someone took the
"noble English family" statement and just guessed that Tostig was the
father, because that was the only contemporary English noble whose
name he knew. It could be further argued that Tostig was famous
enough that their descent from him (if true) would not have been
forgotten, and that the vagueness of the statement "noble Englsih
family" indicates that the family was obscure.
FOR
Since there is no outright contradiction, the two versions could very
well be independent versions of the same story. Snorri no doubt took
copious notes when he was gathering information during his visits to
Norway, but he may not have had access to the full information when he
was back in Iceland writing his history. Although the name of Tostig
was probably well known among the learned, it may not have been known
to Snorri's friend and informant Jarl Skuli (descendant of the above
Skuli), who was possibly the one who gave Snorri his data on this
family.
Trying to decide among these two alternatives (if it is possible to
decide at all) would probably require a detailed study of the
manuscripts involved, to see whether or not they are independent of
each other in the relevant passages, or whether some of them derive
from the others. The survivng manuscripts of such medieval works are
often much later than when the works were originally written, and have
often undergone changes by later copyists, so such a study would have
to be done by someone who is familiar with the relevant manuscripts
and well versed in tracing manuscript origins.
By the way, even if the affiliation between Tostig and Skuli is
accepted as true, there don't seem to be any early British families
which could take advantage of the line. As far as I know, the
earliest descendant to bring the line back to the British Isles was
Margaret of Denmark, wife of king James III of Scotland. For those
who are interested, here is how she descended from the elder Skuli.
[Up to Hakon IV is from Heimskringla, and after that comes from Prince
Isenburg's earlier version of Europaischen Stammtafeln, since I don't
have access to the newer version.]
Skuli, perhaps [but perhaps not] a son of Tostig
md. Guthrun, daughter of Nefsteinn
|
Asolf of Rein
md. Thora, daughter of Skopti, son of Ogmund
|
Guthorm of Rein
md. [unknown]
|
Bard of Rein
md. twice
|
Skuli, powerful Norwegian Jarl, and friend of Snorri
md. [unknown]
|
Margaret, d. 1270
md. 1225 Hakon IV (b. 1204, d. 1268), king of Norway
|
Magnus VI (b. 1238, d. 1280), king of Norway
md. 1261 Ingeborg, daughter of Erik IV, king of Denmark
|
Hakon V (b. 1270, d. 1319), king of Norway
md. 1299 Eufemia, daughter of Wislaw III, prince of Rugen
|
Ingeborg of Norway (b. 1301)
md. 1312 Erik of Sweden (d. 1318), duke of Sudermannland [sp?]
|
Eufemia (b. 1317)
md. 1336 Albrecht I (b. 1318, d. 1379), duke of Mecklenburg
|
Ingeburg of Mecklenburg
md. 1366 Heinrich II, count of Holstein
|
Gerhard VI, count of Holstein
md. 1391 Elisabeth, daughter of Magnus II, dike of Braunschweig
|
Hedwig of Holstein, d. 1436
md. 1423 Dietrich (d. 1440), count of Oldenburg
|
Christian I (b. 1425, d. 1481), king of Denmark, Norway, and Sweden
md. 1449 Dorothea, daughter of Johann, margrave of Brandanburg
|
Margaret of Denmark
md. James III, king of Scotland
|
V
---------------------------------
Stewart Baldwin
Jared Olar
> On the question of whether or not Skuli and his brother Ketil Krok
> were the sons of Tostig (son of Godwine),
>
>
> Trying to decide between these two alternatives (if it is possible to
> decide at all) would probably require a detailed study of the
> manuscripts involved, to see whether or not they are independent of
> each other in the relevant passages, or whether some of them derive
> from the others. The survivng manuscripts of such medieval works are
> often much later than when the works were originally written, and have
> often undergone changes by later copyists, so such a study would have
> to be done by someone who is familiar with the relevant manuscripts
> and well versed in tracing manuscript origins.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
> Stewart Baldwin
>
Jacqueline Simpson's discussion of Snorri Sturluson's sources for
his HEIMSKRINGLA in the Introduction of her revision of Samuel Laing's
translation is very relevant to this issue. Her statements and
conclusions are in agreement with another discussion of the manner in
which Snorri's HEIMSKRINGLA was put together which I read through about two
week ago (title escapes me at the moment--rats!!).
Simpson says that the MORKINSKINNA and FAGRSKINNA manuscripts
were compiled just before Snorri wrote HEIMSKRINGLA, and were in fact
relied upon by Snorri as authorities and sources. Therefore, the
comments concerning the parentage of Skuli and Ketil PREDATE Snorri's more
vague statement--but then we must explain why Snorri didn't just go
ahead and relate the detail that they were sons of Tostig.
Jared Olar
ol...@eagle.uis.edu